In every update that balances combat we have a such negative feedback at forum like this?

ryudan91

Or this "ZergHate" about Nerfmire is kinda new, like a new record of number of people unsatisfied with changes reporting it here at forum?

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Been here almost 4 years and this is the worst DLC I can remember. Bugs, bugs, bugs. So many things broken. Along with the bugs are nerfs no one asked for yet were crammed down our throats in the name of "balance". Well, the "balance" will never happen in this game when every DLC introduces a ton of new gear sets with more proc meta builds soon to follow.

But to answer your query yes, I think this is a new record for us, the people that play this game, to complain to ZOS about the massive bugs introduced. If you want to see the bugs please peruse the Forum. There are literally dozens of things broken by this DLC.

yodased

This anger is split and two angry parties are being conflated. The first is the player who's playstyle was "ruined" in their opinion by the change to speed.

The second are players who are legitimately upset about broken or unfinished things in murkmire, along with some splash anger from those around them.

There actually have been several times in the past that this place was a toxic bomb that just exploded

Veteran Level Grind

when they didn't retroactively award undaunted levels to players who had done all the achievements

the swap to champion system,

PvP lockout changes,

the removal of forward camps

the reintroduction of forward camps

the whole cheating bonanaza,

gap closing into keeps,

redshell

probably a couple more, but this too shall pass, those that leave will leave and the world keeps turning.

Tandor

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Meanwhile the ingame population (PC EU) is huge with masses of players still participating in the Witches Festival at delves and dolmens, for example, and with everyone seemingly playing just fine. Dungeons, trials, and Cyrodiil may be very different of course, I wouldn't know, but the game as a whole certainly isn't broken as some try and make out.

As for bugs and performance issues, I haven't personally experienced any. I haven't yet gone to Murkmire itself although I've enjoyed doing the prologue quest and am heading to Murkmire today. My playstyle means I'm not affected by the balancing changes, but I recommend in all these respects that people exercise a little patience as the first incremental patch after a major update often resolves a lot of issues, as I believe it will, for example, with the pet survivability bug based on what Jessica has said.

WrathOfInnos

This update is actually the worse I have seen for balance. Typically balance changes have been small changes to skill values that result in slight shifts in what is most effective. The Murkmire “balance changes” were based around completely removing skills from usefulness.

Looking at Refreshing Path as an example. It could have had its damage reduced by maybe 20% and Twisting Path would’ve been a tough choice. Instead the damage was reduced by 100%, which removes choices and it will only be useful for NB healers.

The same can be said for Funnel Health, the skill was effectively removed from existence for all DDs after a 50% damage nerf. And shields were weakened to the point where they are not even worth slotting for most PvE content. Sure you will probably die without having a shield skill, but you will also die with having a shield skill.

RedRook

ryudan91 wrote: »

Or this "ZergHate" about Nerfmire is kinda new, like a new record of number of people unsatisfied with changes reporting it here at forum?

Morrowind was worse, but I think most of that happened on the PTS forum - when it went live, people simply left. That was really the end for PVP, the survivors are just trying to make the best of what's left.

Just my POV of course.

Trancestor

Most patches they do something dumb and uncalled for where people get mad but in Nerfmire they stepped up a few levels in that department, hence the bigger than usual rage in the forums.

jcm2606

While salt has been excreted on the forums plenty of times before, Murkmire delivered an avalanche of salt, all of it warranted. This really is the straw that broke the camel's back for many players.

ezio45

Havent been on forums all to long 8 ish months maybe. But ya this is definitely the most hated patch in eso history and people are getting very vocal about it

summerset and wolf hunter got no where near this much hate

Miswar

jcm2606 wrote: »

While salt has been excreted on the forums plenty of times before, Murkmire delivered an avalanche of salt, all of it warranted. This really is the straw that broke the camel's back for many players.

Well said. We all have our limits and this has hit the camel population badly.

I have been playing +3 years and a lot of this game but this is by far worse dlc that I have encountered. (Not even considering all the bugs that this seems to delivering).

Nomore adapt until your rip for me.. each of our own though ofcourse.

ScardyFox

jcm2606 wrote: »

While salt has been excreted on the forums plenty of times before, Murkmire delivered an avalanche of salt, all of it warranted. This really is the straw that broke the camel's back for many players.

EXACTLY. All it takes it a few minutes to check my post and see I am always railing against people calling for nerfs left right and center. This however, is just insanity - this enchant nonsense deserves every once of vitriol and ridicule it is manifesting.

VaranisArano

The last major combat change like this was Morrowind and the forums were pretty unhappy then too.

As for this year, Dragon Bones launch on PC was a fustercluck because of the IC exp bug that resulted in bans and bound items disappearing from housing storage. Summerset and Wolfhunter had less bugs and less massive combat changes.

jcm2606

Miswar wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

While salt has been excreted on the forums plenty of times before, Murkmire delivered an avalanche of salt, all of it warranted. This really is the straw that broke the camel's back for many players.

Well said. We all have our limits and this has hit the camel population badly.

I have been playing +3 years and a lot of this game but this is by far worse dlc that I have encountered. (Not even considering all the bugs that this seems to delivering).

Nomore adapt until your rip for me.. each of our own though ofcourse.

In terms of balance, personally, this is tied with Morrowind. Morrowind basically killed most of the fun in the game for me, hitting sustain as hard as it did, however Zenimax seems to have outdone themselves with these new round of nerfs.

In terms of technical issues, this is by far the worst patch I've ever seen. Quite sad, really. In an absolutely hilarious way. Not often you see something as beautiful as this.

Lake

A class rep mentioned that ZoS told them that Mag Sorcs are the most popular played class. That's the main reason for all the sudden noise.

Turelus

I would put this one down to they did a big change to a long established system.

Most of the rage has been centred around the shield changes, which no matter how ZOS addressed them was going to cause an uproar from people.

The additional balance changes and issues introduced however have just given more fuel to that fire.

Miswar

Yes. Agree on that Morrowind stuff and game lost a lot of players because of it.

Those sustain issues still remain with some classes but this is diffrent since quite few of us stayed and continued playing.

Now those people that stayed are fed up... some definately will still try to adapt but many will take a break or simply be gone for good.

People fail to realize that it is also the social element that has kept people active with ESO with all these bugs etc. This is the first patch that have made at least my gaming friends to organize new stuff with other games. That is the biggest the diffrence.

RainfeatherUK

Just prepare yourself for the equivalent of being hit by this 1000 round nerf weapon each update and you'll be fine.

If it helps you could imagine a kind of Arnold vs Predator standoff between the devs and players in the swamp with these, to cover the 'mire' part of the nerfmire meme this time round. Thats totally ok.

Shantu

Turelus wrote: »

I would put this one down to they did a big change to a long established system.

Most of the rage has been centred around the shield changes, which no matter how ZOS addressed them was going to cause an uproar from people.

The additional balance changes and issues introduced however have just given more fuel to that fire.

But this has been an ongoing uproar from the beginning of PTS testing that unfortunately, to no one's benefit, appears to fall on deaf ears. So part of the rage comes from the changes themselves and the plethora of new bugs, and another part comes from the fact that serious concerns of people who actually support and play the game are given the appearance of being ignored. Now this may not be true, but from the perspective of the community, that is what it feels like.

Vahrokh

Turelus wrote: »

I would put this one down to they did a big change to a long established system.

Most of the rage has been centred around the shield changes, which no matter how ZOS addressed them was going to cause an uproar from people.

The additional balance changes and issues introduced however have just given more fuel to that fire.

I am in 3 trials guilds and we farmed most vet and hm content.

As of today, 2 of these 3 guilds have lost 70% of their players. In one guild's Discord they announced the guild is now considered inactive and soon disbanding. In the second, since Nerfmire first PTS we haven't done one single trial and as of today 8 of the trials guys have quit the game.

In my 3rd guild, which is established since release, we were progressing into hm vMOL, vAS+2 and vCR+3.
Now we are back to struggling to put together enough people to do vHRC.

Do you understand what does this means to an heavy trials player like me, in terms of lost friends, lost achievements, lost WEEKS in attempts that now will lead to nowhere?

I HATE NERFMIRE WITH ALL MY HEART!

Dalsinthus

The thing I am beginning to find tiresome is the massive, build upending changes that come with the quarterly updates. This patch seems particularly bad on that front, with things like the shield changes, enchantment changes, etc.

I get that ZOS wants to strive for balance across classes and is making change in that interest. But this game is huge and contains many complex systems and no person or team is smart enough to make scores of changes in a system like this and get it right. So we have changes that upend the game and then walked back with further changes. A great example of this is the nerf to the cc and damage of crystal frags, which led to rune cage changes that provided no counter play, which led to a series of nerfs to rune cage to the point that few players want to slot it. This is really disruptive to popular builds and playstyles. I find it frustrating.

ZOS representatives have said that they don't want to have skills perform differently between PVE and PVP in the interest of consistent gameplay. But if you want to perform well in either game mode you pretty much need to overhaul your build (skills, sets, food, potions, CP, and sometimes even skill morphs) or have dedicated characters for the different game modes. The different game modes reward different things - consistent dps through a rotation in pve and burst with cc in pvp. We have lots of sets now that have abilities that only work on players or only work on dungeon and trial opponents - this is not consistent gameplay. This is even happening with skills now - sorc and warden pets don't take damage in dungeons, but will die to other players, mobs in maelstrom arena, and world bosses. With the shield changes ZOS floated having the skills have a cast time but not be interruptible; thankfully that was walked back but these kind of exception-based mechanics make the game confusing as hell for new players.

I wish ZOS would slow down and focus on incremental changes in individual components of the game. Make shields critable first, see how that affects the game, assess and tweak from there. This approach would require more frequent changes on a biweekly or monthly schedule. ZOS has said they won't do that because they don't want to disrupt people's builds. But this approach would be a hell of a lot less disruptive than the massive, global changes to all aspects of the game that come every 3 months.

I love this game, I really do. I've been playing nearly daily since console launch. But they're trying my patience with Murkmire.

Sigtric

Been here since the beginning and I can not recall a single patch that had a combat pass in it that ended up with any sort of positive feeling from the community.

Combat changes in this game have always been kneejerk reactions by a combat team who increasingly seems more out of touch and out of control. I used to give them the benefit of the doubt knowing they had access to more data than I, and a better understanding of what is under the hood. I can't do that anymore. Everything combat does has been a joke.

Everstorm

Balancing efforts are inherent to MMO's but the problem this time is that they made changes that sap the fun out of commonly used and appreciated setups/skills. And while balance is of course something worth pursuing the most important aspect of a game should be fun, enjoyment. Throw in a couple of serious bugs/changes like pets not getting the proper resists (on top of the shield changes) and the dual wield enchantment fiasco and people get pissy.

Miswar

Vahrokh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I would put this one down to they did a big change to a long established system.

Most of the rage has been centred around the shield changes, which no matter how ZOS addressed them was going to cause an uproar from people.

The additional balance changes and issues introduced however have just given more fuel to that fire.

I am in 3 trials guilds and we farmed most vet and hm content.

As of today, 2 of these 3 guilds have lost 70% of their players. In one guild's Discord they announced the guild is now considered inactive and soon disbanding. In the second, since Nerfmire first PTS we haven't done one single trial and as of today 8 of the trials guys have quit the game.

In my 3rd guild, which is established since release, we were progressing into hm vMOL, vAS+2 and vCR+3.
Now we are back to struggling to put together enough people to do vHRC.

Do you understand what does this means to an heavy trials player like me, in terms of lost friends, lost achievements, lost WEEKS in attempts that now will lead to nowhere?

I HATE NERFMIRE WITH ALL MY HEART!

Vahrokh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I would put this one down to they did a big change to a long established system.

Most of the rage has been centred around the shield changes, which no matter how ZOS addressed them was going to cause an uproar from people.

The additional balance changes and issues introduced however have just given more fuel to that fire.

I am in 3 trials guilds and we farmed most vet and hm content.

As of today, 2 of these 3 guilds have lost 70% of their players. In one guild's Discord they announced the guild is now considered inactive and soon disbanding. In the second, since Nerfmire first PTS we haven't done one single trial and as of today 8 of the trials guys have quit the game.

In my 3rd guild, which is established since release, we were progressing into hm vMOL, vAS+2 and vCR+3.
Now we are back to struggling to put together enough people to do vHRC.

Do you understand what does this means to an heavy trials player like me, in terms of lost friends, lost achievements, lost WEEKS in attempts that now will lead to nowhere?

I HATE NERFMIRE WITH ALL MY HEART!

This is a big part. The social aspect has kept me and many others in the game due a lot of bugs.

This same applies to PvP guilds too. We used to have tons of people joining and chatting everyday.

Currently.. pretty much the same. It is hard to get even group going at the moment and more people taking breaks or are going for good.

This is very bad thing for ESO... but we are talking into deaf ears unfortunately.

This is and will be by far biggest disaster DLC ever hitting ESO and hell it ain't even live on consoles yet and people are angry.

Feanor

Turelus wrote: »

I would put this one down to they did a big change to a long established system.

Most of the rage has been centred around the shield changes, which no matter how ZOS addressed them was going to cause an uproar from people.

The additional balance changes and issues introduced however have just given more fuel to that fire.

No, no, no. This isn’t going to fly this time. You can’t blame the players on this one. Not this time.

Let’s see. The baseline is: No matter if I agree with a change or not, I will accept it and not go into level 12 Enrage stage when the change follows a clear design idea and is at least defensible. Yet most of the changes just look like random stuff bunched together - to the point where ZOS has been ridiculed by assuming they throw darts as selection process for their balance changes.

If you take the mentioned shield „adjustments“, the issues people had voiced was always shield stacking. And nobody actually complained about shields in PvE, because DDs only run one when it’s absolutely necessary in specific encounters. Shields are a DPS loss otherwise.

Now, for the design goal and the change being defensible. What ZOS thought is an acceptable change was giving shields a 1 sec cast time that couldn’t be animation cancelled, and in PTS 1, could also be interrupted. That is a solution that neither solved the alleged problem, didn’t follow game design principles elsewhere (no defense mechanic has cast times), and wasn’t even defensible because everyone with a slight ounce of playing experience could see that this would disrupt rotations in PvE, would bring more one shots, and in PvP be utterly ridiculous due to being interruptible. And if that wasn’t enough, they added crits to the damage on shields.

This has nothing to do with a nerf to a popular play style. It has a lot to do with the change being absolutely indefensible for anyone actually having played a magicka char relying on shields.

Now, granted, they changed the cast time and introduced the HP cap, making Bastion a useless CP star in the process while still not solving the crusade a lot of players were on - shield stacking. The HP cap is per shield. So, while the stack is essentially half now, it’s about the only thing you can do if you don’t want to play a resistance capped tank char.

Again, this is following no clear design goal, is against game mechanics elsewhere (no other defense is HP capped while using a secondary pool as another factor for scaling), and is indefensible in the grand scheme.

So. No, no, no. This isn’t player outrage because a shiny toy got taken away. This is a ball that got dropped hard.

Edited on a minor part due to a user suggestion.

leepalmer95

Every patch for like 2 years has made the game feel worse for me.

I can't remember the last patch i was excited for.

Sigtric

Feanor wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I would put this one down to they did a big change to a long established system.

Most of the rage has been centred around the shield changes, which no matter how ZOS addressed them was going to cause an uproar from people.

The additional balance changes and issues introduced however have just given more fuel to that fire.

No, no, no. This isn’t going to fly this time. You can’t blame the players on this one. Not this time.

Let’s see. The baseline is: No matter if I agree with a change or not, I will accept it and not go into level 12 Enrage stage when the change follows a clear design idea and is at least defensible. Yet most of the changes just look like random stuff bunched together - to the point where ZOS has been ridiculed by assuming they throw darts as selection process for their balance changes.

If you take the mentioned shield „adjustments“, the issues people had voiced was always shield stacking. And nobody actually complained about shields in PvE, because DDs only run one when it’s absolutely necessary in specific encounters. Shields are a DPS loss otherwise.

Now, for the design goal and the change being defensible. What ZOS thought is an acceptable change was giving shields a 1 sec cast time that couldn’t be animation cancelled, and in PTS 1, could also be interrupted. That is a solution that neither solved the alleged problem, didn’t follow game design principles elsewhere (no defense mechanic has cast times), and wasn’t even defensible because everyone with a slight ounce of playing experience could see that this would disrupt rotations in PvE, would bring more one shots, and in PvP be utterly ridiculous due to being interruptible. And if that wasn’t enough, they added crits to the damage on shields.

This has nothing to do with a nerf to a popular play style. It has a lot to do with the change being absolutely indefensible for anyone actually having played a magicka char relying on shields.

Now, granted, they changed the cast time and introduced the HP cap, making Bastion a useless CP star in the process while still not solving the crusade a lot of players were on - shield stacking. The HP cap is per shield. So, while the stack is essentially half now, it’s about the only thing you can do if you don’t want to play a resistance capped tank char.

Again, this is following no clear design goal, is against game mechanics elsewhere (no other defense is HP capped while using a secondary pool as another factor for scaling), and is indefensible in the grand scheme.

So. No, no, no. This isn’t player outrage because a shiny toy got taken away. This is a ball that got dropped hard.

Edited on a minor part due to a user suggestion.

QFE

zaria

The Morrowind mega nerf was more criticized and way worse in my opinion.

The death of the sharpened only meta was popular even if an small nerf as it was an serious QoL improvement.

deLioncourt

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

Been here almost 4 years and this is the worst DLC I can remember. Bugs, bugs, bugs. So many things broken. Along with the bugs are nerfs no one asked for yet were crammed down our throats in the name of "balance". Well, the "balance" will never happen in this game when every DLC introduces a ton of new gear sets with more proc meta builds soon to follow.

But to answer your query yes, I think this is a new record for us, the people that play this game, to complain to ZOS about the massive bugs introduced. If you want to see the bugs please peruse the Forum. There are literally dozens of things broken by this DLC.

The problem is that weaving is not something that was intended for this game, but it happens. Zenimax tried to fix it, but realized they couldn't, and then said "working as intended."

You're tellin me they spent all that time designing animations for abilities and weapons specifically because we were going to be allowed to cancel them? Yeah right.

All of these constant balance patches are a poor attempt by Zenimax to balance a game around what essentially is an unfixable exploit.

GreenHere

I think a lot of all this is just the overall feeling that ZOS is deeply out of touch with what most of us want, what we enjoy, and how their game works. They keep gutting things people enjoy, instead of tweaking them in small, slow, and sensible ways. They keep breaking things in their apparent haste to make changes no one asks for. They keep neglecting changes people do ask for. Player feedback goes largely unacknowledged.

Let me repeat that: Player feedback goes largely unacknowledged. They don't have to agree with every person on every thing (obviously), but they don't even deign conversations with us worthwhile, apparently. They don't even bother to say, "While we have a different vision for the game's direction, we hear you and appreciate your feedback!" or anything like that. Just silence. Followed by drastic changes to the game that often feel like a punch to the gut for a large portion of players.

People like to feel as though they're understood. ZOS sucks at making their community feel that way. The community gets more disgruntled over time as a result.

At least, that's how I see things around here.

usmguy1234

Feanor wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I would put this one down to they did a big change to a long established system.

Most of the rage has been centred around the shield changes, which no matter how ZOS addressed them was going to cause an uproar from people.

The additional balance changes and issues introduced however have just given more fuel to that fire.

No, no, no. This isn’t going to fly this time. You can’t blame the players on this one. Not this time.

Let’s see. The baseline is: No matter if I agree with a change or not, I will accept it and not go into level 12 Enrage stage when the change follows a clear design idea and is at least defensible. Yet most of the changes just look like random stuff bunched together - to the point where ZOS has been ridiculed by assuming they throw darts as selection process for their balance changes.

If you take the mentioned shield „adjustments“, the issues people had voiced was always shield stacking. And nobody actually complained about shields in PvE, because DDs only run one when it’s absolutely necessary in specific encounters. Shields are a DPS loss otherwise.

Now, for the design goal and the change being defensible. What ZOS thought is an acceptable change was giving shields a 1 sec cast time that couldn’t be animation cancelled, and in PTS 1, could also be interrupted. That is a solution that neither solved the alleged problem, didn’t follow game design principles elsewhere (no defense mechanic has cast times), and wasn’t even defensible because everyone with a slight ounce of playing experience could see that this would disrupt rotations in PvE, would bring more one shots, and in PvP be utterly ridiculous due to being interruptible. And if that wasn’t enough, they added crits to the damage on shields.

This has nothing to do with a nerf to a popular play style. It has a lot to do with the change being absolutely indefensible for anyone actually having played a magicka char relying on shields.

Now, granted, they changed the cast time and introduced the HP cap, making Bastion a useless CP star in the process while still not solving the crusade a lot of players were on - shield stacking. The HP cap is per shield. So, while the stack is essentially half now, it’s about the only thing you can do if you don’t want to play a resistance capped tank char.

Again, this is following no clear design goal, is against game mechanics elsewhere (no other defense is HP capped while using a secondary pool as another factor for scaling), and is indefensible in the grand scheme.

So. No, no, no. This isn’t player outrage because a shiny toy got taken away. This is a ball that got dropped hard.

Edited on a minor part due to a user suggestion.

Most beautiful comment I've seen on the forums in a long time. Bravo!

MooseKnuckles88

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

Turelus

Feanor wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I would put this one down to they did a big change to a long established system.

Most of the rage has been centred around the shield changes, which no matter how ZOS addressed them was going to cause an uproar from people.

The additional balance changes and issues introduced however have just given more fuel to that fire.

No, no, no. This isn’t going to fly this time. You can’t blame the players on this one. Not this time.

Let’s see. The baseline is: No matter if I agree with a change or not, I will accept it and not go into level 12 Enrage stage when the change follows a clear design idea and is at least defensible. Yet most of the changes just look like random stuff bunched together - to the point where ZOS has been ridiculed by assuming they throw darts as selection process for their balance changes.

If you take the mentioned shield „adjustments“, the issues people had voiced was always shield stacking. And nobody actually complained about shields in PvE, because DDs only run one when it’s absolutely necessary in specific encounters. Shields are a DPS loss otherwise.

Now, for the design goal and the change being defensible. What ZOS thought is an acceptable change was giving shields a 1 sec cast time that couldn’t be animation cancelled, and in PTS 1, could also be interrupted. That is a solution that neither solved the alleged problem, didn’t follow game design principles elsewhere (no defense mechanic has cast times), and wasn’t even defensible because everyone with a slight ounce of playing experience could see that this would disrupt rotations in PvE, would bring more one shots, and in PvP be utterly ridiculous due to being interruptible. And if that wasn’t enough, they added crits to the damage on shields.

This has nothing to do with a nerf to a popular play style. It has a lot to do with the change being absolutely indefensible for anyone actually having played a magicka char relying on shields.

Now, granted, they changed the cast time and introduced the HP cap, making Bastion a useless CP star in the process while still not solving the crusade a lot of players were on - shield stacking. The HP cap is per shield. So, while the stack is essentially half now, it’s about the only thing you can do if you don’t want to play a resistance capped tank char.

Again, this is following no clear design goal, is against game mechanics elsewhere (no other defense is HP capped while using a secondary pool as another factor for scaling), and is indefensible in the grand scheme.

So. No, no, no. This isn’t player outrage because a shiny toy got taken away. This is a ball that got dropped hard.

Edited on a minor part due to a user suggestion.

You get an awesome from me.