Make questing enjoyable for vet players too!

Danikat · October 2018

Reading this has got me wondering how many people actually use the harder difficulty settings in single-player games, especially ones where it doesn't give you extra rewards or achievements.

I always assumed most people pick the hardest difficulty they're able to play and if they keep playing it long enough might work up to a harder difficulty, or they're like my husband who is only interested in doing the story and exploring and doesn't want more than minimal challenge so he tends to pick the easiest setting and only increase it if it's really boring.

But this topic makes it sound like a lot of people consider it pointless to make a game harder than it needs to be, even if they enjoy the combat mechanics as well as (or instead of) the story. So now I'm wondering if I'd fallen into the old habit of assuming most people are like you.

I'm definitely one of the ones who likes challenging combat in RPGs, although it depends on the type of challenge. My favourite games are the "chess on steroids" style (I think it was specifically Chrono Trigger which was called that, but it fits other games too) where you need to be planning ahead and using your abilities to counter the enemy instead of simply cycling through a pre-determined rotation until they're dead. I'm not particularly concerned about the rewards, the main reward for me is that when I've beaten one bit I get to carry on with the game. Items, XP etc. are just tools that help that progression, and if I don't need them then that's fine with me - it's one less thing to worry about.

Arato · October 2018

Swomp23 wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

I could agree with making a veteran questing mode provided it has no exclusive rewards to it. if the point is simply having more difficult questing content for challenge's sake then that should be enough, but something tells me you want some sort of exclusive reward for it as a means to exclude other people and stand on a mountain and proclaim you're better than other people for being able to do it. There's already enough exclusivity with VMA , VDSA, Vet Trials and PVP leaderboards.

I can't speak for others, but for me, all I would want is slightly higher exp, to make up for the longer kill times, and maybe slightly better loot tables, for people at max cp. I don't care for titles or skins. On the other hand, I don't get why it bothers you. If people are proud of something, let them be.

The reason no one is running naked with no cp right now is that there is no incentive to do so. Why hinder yourself if it just means it slows down your long term plan (grinding cp and equipment)?

With a difficulty slider, that acts a little like battle spirit, wich increases you damage taken and reduces your damage done on overland mobs, but gives you better exp and loot as difficulty increases, everybody would be able to find his sweet spot, from lvl 1 to cp 810.

The issue is that people claim the want harder content for the sake of challenge but it always boils down to them wanting to somehow set themselves in a different group of people from all the lowly plebs. They want to exclude people from their club.

shimm · October 2018

Quest naked, with no jewelry and weapons with no enchantments/bonuses. It will be more challenging.

albesca · October 2018

I quest with five drops of Chanel n.5 and nothing else

SilverIce58 · October 2018

What if quest bosses just got more hp?

What if the moment you put it in at least 300 (or maybe 600) cp, you get a debuff (that you can turn on and off) where your damage received is doubled and damage dealt is halved?

What if bosses stopped taking damage at a certain percentage and did some kind of mechanic like the final boss of the dark Brotherhood dlc?

Aesthier · October 2018

Voted No in the attempt to balance a completely biased and rigged Poll.

As for making overland and questing content harder see below:

Implement a hardcore character mode at the character select screen which enabled veterans to create a toon that would suffer a permanent debuff that reduces "all" stats by a certain percentage on that specific character.

They could still play with their friends while enjoying the increased difficulty of "all" content.

This makes much more sense than creating new servers or implementing some type of toggle for players which lends itself to more breakage or abuse through exploitation.

Hell ZoS could even implement new titles for those who complete certain content using said toons.

Just a simple lifetime debuff that is applied to the character on creation.

Shraar · October 2018

Y'all say you want harder bosses... but your ideas don't reflect that.

You want to debuff yourself (That doesn't make the boss stronger, that makes you weaker)
And the real giveaway is you're asking for 100% increased gold gain as part of the debuff

You got ulterior motives!

DaveMoeDee · October 2018

mocap wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

Ok...but what, specifically, are you asking for?

For vet players. Vet = veteran. Obviously harder.

Not obvious at all. I do quests for narrative. Current quests ARE fun for vet players.

MartiniDaniels · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

im a fully lvl'd player and I enjoy the overland content o.O

This is routine even for not fully leveled player.. only WB bring some excitement, everything else is not just easy, it's pointlessly easy, where there is 0% chance your char may die.

srfrogg23 · October 2018

I'm a veteran player and I'm enjoying the openworld content. Been playing since Beta.

MartiniDaniels · October 2018

Danksta wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

Ok...but what, specifically, are you asking for?

For vet players. Vet = veteran. Obviously harder.

But that doesn't make their crappy quests more enjoyable.

We have similar quests in ton of single-player RPGs before and nobody complained.. why? because there was difficulty and there was reward.. even if you over-power enemies like happens on some stage in TES games, you could make fun of them killing super-fast, sacrificing damage/armor buffs for more diverse gameplay, etc.. here now in ESO there is no reward (writ returns more reward then any major overland quest) and no challenge or fun, only quest itself sometimes make you chuckle or feel something, but gameplay during quest is just a routine.

ZOS_Mika · October 2018

We have removed a few unnecessary and insulting comments from this thread. While it is fine to disagree, please be sure to keep the discussion civil. Thanks for your understanding.

CrimsonGTX · October 2018

Be careful what you ask for, they may use this to nerf something. Reduce the overall player resistance by X amount to be more in-line with overland content. Add cast-time to all heals so you have to choose offense or defense

Jokes aside....be careful what you ask for lol

Abigail · October 2018

1. Remove your armor and weapons
2. Zero out your CPs

Problem solved

JimmyJuJu · October 2018

Something along the lines of Skyrim Dragons at max difficulty.

Pew pew....dead.

karekiz · October 2018

I honestly think it should work like this:

All DLC quest zones are "hard" zones.
1. Balanced for 300 CP <similar to DLC dungeons for example>.
2. World bosses equal to craglorn normals, with upgraded loot <purple instead of blue>. A quest for killing the world boss will grant one gold random ring/neck <similar to vet trials> per week. This is similar to the extra bag at end of trials Transmute Crystals. This grants a way for players to get overland gold items by actually *playing* overland content.
3. Delves are equal to Vet DLC dungeons with similar loot <purple>.
4. Quests are equal to Normal dungeons <non DLC> - So soloable for good players - duoable for weaker.

All Chapters follow the anyone can play method. Chapters are balanced the same as base game overland.

Reason:
Chapters are things people will general buy "into" as new players. Nobody really cares or minds when DLC for game you never play releases, but Chapters are closer to expansions so they should pull in newer players.

Ydrisselle · October 2018

Swomp23 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

harder =/= more enjoyable for everyone. its an assumption some people like to make, but its not true in all cases.

Well, for some people, it is. If it wasn't, games like Dark Souls wouldn't exist. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge it doesn't make it true.
But we also get that some people don't enjoy difficult content. To all the people that said they enjoyed questing, well, good for you. But why can't you recognize that different people thrive different things? If you enjoy easy content, don't touch the difficulty slider, or don't drink the undaunted brew, or don't chose wathever solution ZOS proposes. But other people will enjoy it. Stop staring at your belly button.

But you can already get a debuff to make it harder for yourself: drop your gear and CP. No need to introduce new mechanics for that.

BalticBlues · October 2018

Abigail wrote: »

1. Remove your armor and weapons
2. Zero out your CPs

I doubt that you can play without weapons.
However, an option to play without CPs
should be easy to implement and interesting to use.

ihazzit · October 2018

shimm wrote: »

Quest naked, with no jewelry and weapons with no enchantments/bonuses. It will be more challenging.

Just make sure you close your window blinds first, it might upset the neighbors.

wolfie1.0. · October 2018

Roll a nord pet sorc with all you points in stamina. And wear lvl 1 white gear with no set items and no cp applies and no food bluffs. That should provide a challenge

idk · October 2018

I find the questing enjoyable and I am not a new player. I do not RP either.

The poll was clearly intended to not provide an appropriate answer for me as my No is that I feel the quests are fine as they are.

Zos has provided a tiered content which is consistent with MMORPGs. Blow I have copied from someone else's post what is roughly the varied levels of difficulty ESO offers from easiest to more challenging.

Overworld
delves
normal dungeons
world bosses
vet dungeons
normal trials
vet DLC dungeons
vet trials
vet HM trials

Of course MA and vMA are in there somewhere.

Katahdin · October 2018

I'm a veteran player, been here since beta.

I enjoy questing for the story and questing's sake. Making quests rediculously hard will detract from following the story. Also I still see new players/lowbies struggling with the overland quests and quest bosses.

When I want a challenge, I go do vet dungeons and trials and pvp.

That said, I do think that every expansion does not need to be a new starter zone.

They could make an expansion /continuation of the story that is not tailored as a starter zone and more designed for higher characters. Although it might be too late for that.
And we will have what happens in Craglorn now, with new players/lowbies showing up and not understanding that it is a higher level zone.

spartaxoxo · October 2018

MaleAmazon wrote: »

People say they want harder content to feel challenged, but won't accept that harder content unless it also rewards them with something (other than the increased challenge of the game).

I´d accept it, but normally when you up the difficulty you get better rewards (e.g. veteran dungeons).

Normally, the content is repeatable, so giving awards to vet content doesn't punish people doing it on normal.

That is not the case with quests, so they would in fact be punished if they were funneled into questing by zos to learn the game, only to discover by doing that they ruined their chances of getting the vet reward.

That's terrible.

If they added a debuff just for making the quests more interesting, the fun of that should be it's own reward.

New players need SOMETHING for them to learn and hold their interests and have them funnled through the zones without fear of punishment, and that something is quests. That element of them shouldn't be taken away from them for vet players who have every other piece of content in the game to be challenged by.

Linaleah · October 2018

Swomp23 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

problem with difficulty sliders is that they will immediately be cheesed. you either have separate veteran zones or you have players grouping where one used slider and the other didn't and second player carries the first. (and or they take turns to increased rewards without increased difficulty) and having separate veteran zones doesn't seem to be on ZoS's agenda

contrary to the claims of "we want challenge" people who yell the loudest will ALWAYS look for path of least resistance, only to turn around and complain how easy something is.

Easily fixed. Only the group leader has access to the difficulty slider, which affects the whole group. Different zones wouldn't be a good idea, as I think this game is better with vets and newbies mixing together to help each other.

As for your second point, I'm not sure I get it, but for me, the path of least resistance means the best way to beat the game. And yes, that's part of the fun. In front of a difficult challenge, find a way to overcome it. And then turn yourself to a harder one. I don't see where the problem is in this.

you understand that this is just as easily glitched, right? don't group, just be in the same zone. spawns are shared. "remove the spawn share" you say? doesn't mater if its shared - player who took a debuff - tags it, and then player without deboff - aoe's mobs down. and I'm not just speaking hypotheticaly, i have seen ALL of this done in various games.

you all people who are "lookinbg for challenge" youre main goal is litteraly to take that challenge and figure out how to make it easy for yourself again, and start the cycle of "too easy" complaints all over again, meanwhile the rest of the population - is left in a dust.

Swomp23 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

harder =/= more enjoyable for everyone. its an assumption some people like to make, but its not true in all cases.

Well, for some people, it is. If it wasn't, games like Dark Souls wouldn't exist. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge it doesn't make it true.
But we also get that some people don't enjoy difficult content. To all the people that said they enjoyed questing, well, good for you. But why can't you recognize that different people thrive different things? If you enjoy easy content, don't touch the difficulty slider, or don't drink the undaunted brew, or don't chose wathever solution ZOS proposes. But other people will enjoy it. Stop staring at your belly button.

I guess you missed the part where I said SOMETIMES THESE PEOPLE OVERLAP, BUT ITS NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.

I do aknowledge some people want more challenge, just so that they can figure out how to "beat" it aka make it easy all over again. however.. these people cannot, should NOT play in the same exact zone with people who are not interested in making things harder on themselves becasue they don't find it fun. explanation as to why? is above

I'm actualy in full support of veteran zones. it just doesn't seem like ZoS wants to bother. and sliders? in shared content? are 100% useless becasue you all WILL find a way to cheese it. after all... you are refusing to manually adjust difficulty for yourself with existing options, solely because there is no special reward for it.

Sevn · October 2018

Shraar wrote: »

Y'all say you want harder bosses... but your ideas don't reflect that.

You want to debuff yourself (That doesn't make the boss stronger, that makes you weaker)
And the real giveaway is you're asking for 100% increased gold gain as part of the debuff

You got ulterior motives!

They ALWAYS have an ulterior motive! All you have to do is just let them talk and it is eventually revealed that they are mainly interested in better rewards, not challenge for the sake of challenge. It's the reason they always dismiss making the game harder for themselves, there is zero reward for it that they can take advantage of, better gear/more gold/skins/title.

It's baloney that the game isn't harder without cp and lower gear as well. During this event jumping back and forth between toons with cp and low toons without is like night and day. You aren't running into a group of 10-15 npc's and melting them in seconds on a toon without cp. You aren't just standing in stupid all day like you can when playing with cp. I find myself struggling even at dolmen bosses when solo, something that never happens when using cp/good gear. I'm dying, a lot. Hardly ever happens using cp/good gear.

Honestly, I just want one of these proponents to upload 2 vids, one with them using their normal set up and one with them using zero cp and lower quality gear doing whatever overland content they feel is too easy. Since they say it makes no difference, show us.

Play both vids the exact same way, pull a ton of npc's and melt them in seconds using the exact same tactics.

Jeremy · October 2018

mocap wrote: »

ZOS, don't leave us! Im not asking about new Craglorn (though Craglorn main quest line is actually easiest in game - big Manticore boss has 52k hp lol/facepalm). Im asking about making ALL current quests enjoyable for vet players. Somehow. Without pre-OT update instances ofcuz. Tx.

The questing/landscape part of this game has definitely got too easy for high level characters (honestly its not very difficult for low level characters either).

They need to create a separate instance for higher level characters to quest in or something. Because it does hurt my enjoyment of this game a lot how questing is so brain dead easy.

I'm not asking for them to make it Vet Maelstrom hard. But at least make it to where you have to actually pay attention and utilize some kind of defense to stay alive instead of slaughtering everything in a couple seconds.

Imryll · October 2018

Obviously, it would require a huge time/money investment to provide hard mode overland content in a form that went beyond simple buffs, debuffs. What types of content (currently targeted at hard-mode players) would you be willing to give up in exchange if this is an area on which you would like ZOS to focus?

Personally, I think overland difficulty is fine as is, and I've been playing in July 2013. When I'm questing I want to focus on world and story, with enough challenge to keep me focussed, but not so much that crossing the map feels like a constant hassle.

Everstorm · October 2018

Abigail wrote: »

1. Remove your armor and weapons
2. Zero out your CPs

Problem solved

I'm sure you're feeling smart and original, showing that elitist scum it's place, rubbing it in their face that this game isn't about them, yadda, yadda, yadda.
But the title of this topic says "enjoyable". And a large part of the fun in RPGs comes from character development, improving your skills and your gear. Telling us to just forgo that aspect of the game does not make it more enjoyable.
Here's a life lesson for you: just because something isn't an issue for you, doesn't mean it's not an issue. Being able to step in someone else's shoes and look at something from their perspective is a great asset. Try it some time.

P.s. I don’t care about any greater reward. I'm sure there are people who want more gold or exp but please don't dismiss this topic because of them.

ruengdet2515 · October 2018

Impossible for general overland but can do in all dungeon.

Some dungeon has door(can't enter/open), cave(still can't enter), so dev can design additional dungeon and put NPC in town/overland only for vet player (cp780+) can start vet quest. (Lower cp can interact with but NPC will tell you can do this quest only if your cp780+)

Maryal · October 2018

[X] OTHER - I am a vet player and I enjoy questing. Questing is fun when it is exploratory, when I feel like I am on an adventure, when I am engaged in the storyline, when I am immersed in the content.