I buy the PvE explanation for the shield nerf.

I have a fair number of friends who are able to four-DPS vet Falkreath Hold and all but a few of the other DLC dungeons, because hardened ward is so strong that they only need to roll-dodge a few cleaves while maintaining taunt.

We were, quite frankly, at the point where tanks were becoming obsolete, and much of the design of Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones were meant to address tank obsoleteness. Plenty of individuals did complain about this, and it is a big problem.

The changes to shields, as with the percentage-based health mechanics of Moonhunter Keep and the hard stop on DPS with boss phases in March of Sacrifices, are part of a larger movement by the developers to end the paradigm of damage being the solution to all problems. With this change, it won't be possible to four-dps vet DLC dungeons, and it will give devs more room to design mechanics that can be challenging without being a guaranteed wipe that circumvents all player defensive abilities (think of Vykosa as an example of the former and Zaan as an example of the latter).

Consider also the defensive buff magicka DPS gains from the change to major evasion, which now mitigates 25% AoE damage. Prior to that change, only stamina could attain 100% uptime on a percentage-based damage mitigation of that magnitude via blade cloak, but now magicka DPS can gain access to that same mitigation and uptime from any source of major evasion, which could be a healer wearing Gossamer, the Specter's Eye set, or a class ability. The percentage-based reduction from evasion will reduce the damage inflicted upon the shield, thereby compensating for the shields' reduction in effectiveness.

The bottom line is that the shield changes make magicka DPS defensive strategy more complex and more difficult, but the changes accomplish that in a reasonably balanced way, and the changes are good for the player community as a whole.

waitwhat wrote: »

I buy the PvE explanation for the shield nerf.

I have a fair number of friends who are able to four-DPS vet Falkreath Hold and all but a few of the other DLC dungeons, because hardened ward is so strong that they only need to roll-dodge a few cleaves while maintaining taunt.

We were, quite frankly, at the point where tanks were becoming obsolete, and much of the design of Horns of the Reach and Dragon Bones were meant to address tank obsoleteness. Plenty of individuals did complain about this, and it is a big problem.

The changes to shields, as with the percentage-based health mechanics of Moonhunter Keep and the hard stop on DPS with boss phases in March of Sacrifices, are part of a larger movement by the developers to end the paradigm of damage being the solution to all problems. With this change, it won't be possible to four-dps vet DLC dungeons, and it will give devs more room to design mechanics that can be challenging without being a guaranteed wipe that circumvents all player defensive abilities (think of Vykosa as an example of the former and Zaan as an example of the latter).

Consider also the defensive buff magicka DPS gains from the change to major evasion, which now mitigates 25% AoE damage. Prior to that change, only stamina could attain 100% uptime on a percentage-based damage mitigation of that magnitude via blade cloak, but now magicka DPS can gain access to that same mitigation and uptime from any source of major evasion, which could be a healer wearing Gossamer, the Specter's Eye set, or a class ability. The percentage-based reduction from evasion will reduce the damage inflicted upon the shield, thereby compensating for the shields' reduction in effectiveness.

The bottom line is that the shield changes make magicka DPS defensive strategy more complex and more difficult, but the changes accomplish that in a reasonably balanced way, and the changes are good for the player community as a whole.

i just love your post saying its fine and justifying it when on your signature it shows

Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.

SirMewser wrote: »

Hurtfan wrote: »

Superhero1257b14_ESO wrote: »

royo wrote: »

Yeah, it's true, they made shields critable because dungeon bosses were complaining.

This right here. PvE mobs don't crit.

To add crits working on shields..and then to say it's not something motivated by PvP..is just blatantly wrong.

You might as well have said 2+2=22

You're not taking this little sentence into consideration:

"This change makes damage shields function more consistently with the rest of the game’s mechanics."

That's why they made them critable...nothing to do with PvP

Shields cannot crit, but can be critted.
Yeah consistent.

The devs did mention that PvP also factored into their analysis, and the crit changes are very clearly a pvp only change because PvE enemies do not inflict critical damage at all.

The conversation about whether or not shields should "crit" on cast is one we should have, but it isn't as simple as "shields should gain an additional 50% magnitude on crit" because we don't actually have a consistent standard on defensive mechanics and crit. Blocking can "be critted" against in that critical damage inflicts more damage through block than does non-critical damage, but blocking "cannot crit" in that one does not randomly receive 50% additional block mitigation/reduced block cost based on one's weapon/spell crit rating. By contrast, healing can crit and restore an additional 50% health, and like shields and block it benefits from the target's critical resistance, but unlike shields and block healing can also be countered by two unique, stackable status effects that scale favorably for the attacker: major and minor defile. Even shattering blows doesn't compare to the amount of offensive counterplay defile provides against healing, which may justify why heals can be critically cast, but shields cannot.

Further complicating things is the fact that oblivion damage bypasses both shields and block, but doesn't really provide direct counterplay to healing, and while Befoul and Shattering Blows directly counter Bastion and Blessed, we don't have a CP star that increases damage done on targets that are blocking.


We need to have a conversation about whether or not these three defensive mechanics--shields, block, healing--should be standardized, but we shouldn't accept as a given that there is some common paradigm of "can be critted against, and thus should be able to critically-cast" because no such paradigm exists. We also shouldn't take for granted that we would want such a standardized paradigm regarding defensive mechanics: do you really want high-crit stamblades dodging 50% farther and faster for the same cost?

Haashhtaag wrote: »

oMrRust wrote: »

Now scaling max to 50% of max health..?
I assume this is an attempt for nerf for pvp but the only nerf it's doing for is PVE
Barely any change to the wards in PVP. but in PVE.. would get a 15k damage shield but now max 7k with hardened ward..

oMrRust wrote: »

Now scaling max to 50% of max health..?
I assume this is an attempt for nerf for pvp but the only nerf it's doing for is PVE
Barely any change to the wards in PVP. but in PVE.. would get a 15k damage shield but now max 7k with hardened ward..

No it was a nerf because pve healers didn’t feel useful because of shields.

That was Wrobel's justification... I mean "explanation" for the nerf.
I'll be spending a lot of the last week before Nerfmire hits console in VMA because I certainly won't bother with trying to get any of my 6 mag DPS toons through it afterward.

is it fair to say that

---

>

if the tank and the healer are good enough.....

you don't need shields?

Who cares what the Devs "said" they lie.

This is PvP based period.

The Devs are not able or are too lazy to make separate code as they should.

SirMewser wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Hurtfan wrote: »

Superhero1257b14_ESO wrote: »

royo wrote: »

Yeah, it's true, they made shields critable because dungeon bosses were complaining.

This right here. PvE mobs don't crit.

To add crits working on shields..and then to say it's not something motivated by PvP..is just blatantly wrong.

You might as well have said 2+2=22

You're not taking this little sentence into consideration:

"This change makes damage shields function more consistently with the rest of the game’s mechanics."

That's why they made them critable...nothing to do with PvP

Shields cannot crit, but can be critted.
Yeah consistent.

The devs did mention that PvP also factored into their analysis, and the crit changes are very clearly a pvp only change because PvE enemies do not inflict critical damage at all.

The conversation about whether or not shields should "crit" on cast is one we should have, but it isn't as simple as "shields should gain an additional 50% magnitude on crit" because we don't actually have a consistent standard on defensive mechanics and crit. Blocking can "be critted" against in that critical damage inflicts more damage through block than does non-critical damage, but blocking "cannot crit" in that one does not randomly receive 50% additional block mitigation/reduced block cost based on one's weapon/spell crit rating. By contrast, healing can crit and restore an additional 50% health, and like shields and block it benefits from the target's critical resistance, but unlike shields and block healing can also be countered by two unique, stackable status effects that scale favorably for the attacker: major and minor defile. Even shattering blows doesn't compare to the amount of offensive counterplay defile provides against healing, which may justify why heals can be critically cast, but shields cannot.

Further complicating things is the fact that oblivion damage bypasses both shields and block, but doesn't really provide direct counterplay to healing, and while Befoul and Shattering Blows directly counter Bastion and Blessed, we don't have a CP star that increases damage done on targets that are blocking.


We need to have a conversation about whether or not these three defensive mechanics--shields, block, healing--should be standardized, but we shouldn't accept as a given that there is some common paradigm of "can be critted against, and thus should be able to critically-cast" because no such paradigm exists. We also shouldn't take for granted that we would want such a standardized paradigm regarding defensive mechanics: do you really want high-crit stamblades dodging 50% farther and faster for the same cost?

Why are you talking to me again?

Hurtfan wrote: »

Superhero1257b14_ESO wrote: »

royo wrote: »

Yeah, it's true, they made shields critable because dungeon bosses were complaining.

This right here. PvE mobs don't crit.

To add crits working on shields..and then to say it's not something motivated by PvP..is just blatantly wrong.

You might as well have said 2+2=22

You're not taking this little sentence into consideration:

"This change makes damage shields function more consistently with the rest of the game’s mechanics."

That's why they made them critable...nothing to do with PvP

"nothing to do with PvP" and @waitwhat wants to defend that...

winterbornb14_ESO wrote: »

Who cares what the Devs "said" they lie.

This is PvP based period.

The Devs are not able or are too lazy to make separate code as they should.

As a magsorc, my empowered ward has a value of 6964 in PvE and 7138 in PvP. This is with zero points into bastion. It’s as Hurtfan said: it’s not about PvP.

Maybe this can help clear things up, based on my knowledge of the changes:
•Shield caps at % of max health: PvE based, to prevent mag players from being able to ignore mechanics while also being able to output good dps.
•Shield damage changes (crits, resists, and enchant procs): consistency based, to make shields function more like extra health instead of an independent and unexplained form of mitigation.

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I hear PvP players saying that magsorcs with shields were not overpowered in PvP - and I believe them.

I play as a PvE magplar templar healer and as a magsorc dps and what I am asserting just as strongly is that magsorcs with shields were not overpowered in PvE. And, once again, as a healer, it is boss one shot mechanics that challenge the role of healer - NOT mages with shields.

That is why I am scratching my head and am more than a little perplexed/irritated. This was a dumb nerf that neither PvE nor PvP players wanted!

Though this is a much more serious nerf, it reminds me in its silliness of the time when magplars lost the tiny stun that affected only one target from their shards that absolutely no one except the devs thought was a problem.

In both cases the 'explanation' made zero sense to those of us who play every day.

I am glad you are seeing thorugh this.

TheValar85 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

TheValar85 wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Shieldnerf is motivated by pve, not pvp.

thats not true. look up for your self in teh pvp threads, and on streames, and on youtube it was motivated by pvp and i dont even believe a damn thing what teh devs says in a cover story why did teh nerfed, everyone knows who is reading forums or watching pvp related streames or youtubers tehy are all cryied for sorc nerfs. Do your reasearch properly, and dont believe anything what teh devs says as a cower explanation.

Have seen a number of threads across the forums about how healers are unnecesary for most dungeons
with the best setups being considered 4 dps or 3 dps + tank
and a prevalence of fake healers due to the role being considered trivial

healer roles are not trivial for many players, thos who think that thay just speak from tehir ego. I never dared to go any where without a healer. And nor without a tank, Tank rely on heal and the ehal and the tank rely on the dd and the heal rely on both of them. Yet this is not a reason to say becasue a sroc in a group use shield feel less usefull as a healer, They are infact very important in every aspect of the game not just in pve but also in pvp. And those who denies that thats a lie. But simply becasue i am using a shiled as a sorc to defend my self when situations demands me by all means i use them, but still the healer is still healing me, becasue i will not become invincible teh shiled only gives me a brief moment when my hp drops while the ehal still can bring up everyone into a full HP, i just simply using my skill to delay my death. that dosent makes healers less useful. thats a fact. And i dont think they should be so depressed because they burdden is a bit lower when it comes for healing. OFC i am not saying we dont need healers cos thats BS i need them too. But this reason is a lie what Zeni said about shield nerfs. And no one can convince me. And i am not alone with that.

You constantly ignore one thing: ZOS has the data about the successful dungeon completions. If that data show that more and more 4 DDs or tank + 3 DDs teams are successful in dungeons, without any need of a healer, then it has to be addressed. They just did that, and I think it would be much worse with a cast time too...
(my main is a magsorc with shields, and I died today 3-4 times against a dolmen boss who used silence and stun, and killed my pet very easily)

One thought... Does this mean that the CP Bastion doesn't increase the damge shield?

I just checked it out.. // My max health is 17159, and the shield is 6863. Bastion at 100 didn't change this at all. If you use both the light armor shield Harness and Empowered Ward total is 13726. This would have been higher with the other shield morph, but use this for the added regen.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

So a few skills swaps, maybe a small gear change and a change in the placement of your CP can make your shields capable of absorbing more damage with less value then they did before with larger values.

@RinaldoGandolphi

What was the trade off? Did you lose anything to gain this increased survivability?

Your post details possible avenues of approach, and that changes are required. You specified that you were able to clear the Craglorn content. Did you do so in the same amount of time? Is your DPS unaffected? Did you have to spend the same amount of time dodging? Did you retain as many active abilites, etc.?

I ask, because merely addressing whether it is possible to ameliorate these changes after a rebuild can only be considered complete if it encompasses all elements of the playing experience.

I'm not even going to get into the Endgame vs. Casual question yet.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The changes to shields is not really a nerf though, its a pretty substantial buff.

Let me explain:

1. Major Resolve and Major Ward now apply to the damage shield reducing the damage it takes(Chudan Set, Volatile Armor, Boundless Storm, Templar Rune, Frost Cloak)
2. Blood Spawn now applies its proc to Shields.
3. Minor Resolve and Ward also apply to sheilds(Blessing of Protection Stonefist, etc)
4. Crit Resist applies to shields(good for PVP)
5. the Spell Sheild and Light Armor Focus CP now also apply to damage shields.
6. Sets that offer physical and spell resistance buffs now apply to shields.
7. The Protective JHewelry traint applies its bonus to shields.
8. Defending Trait weapons and Reinforced Armor trait apply to sheilds.

660 Armor/Spell Resist = 1% mitigation roughly, so speaking of PVE only

A 9k Ward with an armor buff taking the above into consideration is more powerful than a 15k Ward was before.

So a few skills swaps, maybe a small gear change and a change in the placement of your CP can make your shields capable of absorbing more damage with less value then they did before with larger values.

I finished soloing all the Craglorn group areas and delves this evening, foguht and killed bosses i couldn't yesterday. Harness Magicka feels significantly stronger in PVE than it did yesterday.

Food for thought.

So, you are now a defense stacked... "DPS" sporting "defending trait weapons and reinforced armor" and you show up to a trial leader?

I would love to see him rolling on the floor, laughing at you and sending you to wear a proper DPS set. And then claim your shields are stronger than before.

P.S. waiting to see my perma-dead pets magsorc get a "defensive Necropotence" set.

DanteYoda wrote: »

What Gina said could easily be taken for both PvP and PvE.. those skills were apparently overshadowing healers.. it didn't say in what content.

definetly not in pve nor in pvp becasue both side of the game is in great need of them. I have no idea why would any healer say that. even if a healer joins a well geared fast group and tehy run through the dungeon fast or tirals. In fact i know alot of healer who love playing within those groups becasue it is fast fluid and progressiv, and tehy dont have to struggle with skilles palyers like tehy have to do in most cenrarios when it comes fro pugging in dungeons or trials.