Murkmire PvP Tiers (I think I see a trend here)

lucky_dutch · October 2018

These are DPS setups I'm referring to. Some of the mag classes perform better than this as healer builds.

Small-scale/BGs:

Stamblade
Stamden
Stamsorc
StamDK
Stamplar
MagDK
Magsorc
Magplar
Magblade
Magden

1vX:

Stamblade
Stamden
Stamsorc
StamDK
Stamplar
Magblade
MagSorc
Magplar
MagDK
Magden

Mojomonkeyman · October 2018

I'd rate Magicka Warden way higher in Smallscale/BGs.

Checkmath · October 2018

I do not agree with your list completely, but due to higher mobility, most stamina toons perform better in PvP than magicka toons. The top two on your list really excel in mobility, but also bring in great sustain and survivability. This makes those two excel the other classes in a lot of scenarios. Still there also strong magicka toons, which can contribute a lot in groups and bgs for example. Magwarden and magtemplar are for example the best supporter classes, but have issues in 1vX.

lucky_dutch · October 2018

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I'd rate Magicka Warden way higher in Smallscale/BGs.

To be fair, I was referring to DPS setups there. As a healer they can perform. Magplar would be a lot higher if talking in terms of healers too.

templesus · October 2018

Speaking on 1vXing ~ Agreed. Stamina classes have higher floors then Magicka classes do (bar stamblade and stamden those 2 should just be removed from the game at this point they are over performing so much) and thus are rightfully better when it comes to 1vXing in general.

Higher input = Higher Output

Higher Floor SHOULD = Higher Ceiling

lucky_dutch · October 2018

templesus wrote: »

Speaking on 1vXing ~ Agreed. Stamina classes have higher floors then Magicka classes do (bar stamblade and stamden those 2 should just be removed from the game at this point they are over performing so much) and thus are rightfully better when it comes to 1vXing in general.

Higher input = Higher Output

Higher Floor SHOULD = Higher Ceiling

I actually don't like the floor/ceiling argument. Every class should just have the same ceiling and if some are easier to play than others, so be it.

The most important part of balancing is top-end performance, especially in a game with fairly limited matchmaking.

templesus · October 2018

lucky_dutch wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Speaking on 1vXing ~ Agreed. Stamina classes have higher floors then Magicka classes do (bar stamblade and stamden those 2 should just be removed from the game at this point they are over performing so much) and thus are rightfully better when it comes to 1vXing in general.

Higher input = Higher Output

Higher Floor SHOULD = Higher Ceiling

I actually don't like the floor/ceiling argument. Every class should just have the same ceiling and if some are easier to play than others, so be it.

The most important part of balancing is top-end performance, especially in a game with fairly limited matchmaking.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree. An MMA fighter should beat a black belt in Karate in a fight because what they train in (MMA) has a higher floor then Karate does. Imo that logic should apply to most everything. A job that requires more should pay more then one that doesn’t.

Saying one class should do the same as another but require half the brain cells to operate (obvious exaggeration here) doesn’t make sense to me. If the floors are close, then sure. Elsewise, not so much.

I don’t believe that classes should have different floors in the first place. They should balance classes to all have similar floors and then the equal ceiling argument becomes relevant. You SHOULD be able to pick any class and put in the same amount of effort and get roughly the same results.

It’s completely asinine to tell someone they have to put in more effort to play there class just to get the same results another does.

Mojomonkeyman · October 2018

templesus wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Speaking on 1vXing ~ Agreed. Stamina classes have higher floors then Magicka classes do (bar stamblade and stamden those 2 should just be removed from the game at this point they are over performing so much) and thus are rightfully better when it comes to 1vXing in general.

Higher input = Higher Output

Higher Floor SHOULD = Higher Ceiling

I actually don't like the floor/ceiling argument. Every class should just have the same ceiling and if some are easier to play than others, so be it.

The most important part of balancing is top-end performance, especially in a game with fairly limited matchmaking.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree. An MMA fighter should beat a black belt in Karate in a fight because what they train in (MMA) has a higher floor then Karate does. Imo that logic should apply to most everything. A job that requires more should pay more then one that doesn’t.

Saying one class should do the same as another but require half the brain cells to operate (obvious exaggeration here) doesn’t make sense to me. If the floors are close, then sure. Elsewise, not so much.

I don’t believe that classes should have different floors in the first place. They should balance classes to all have similar floors and then the equal ceiling argument becomes relevant. You SHOULD be able to pick any class and put in the same amount of effort and get roughly the same results.

The problem is, people won't necessarily agree on your idea about "what requires more" - which then leads to another side discussion, not exactly desirable.

Example: I myself am 100% that no matter what end of the spectrum you place the user skillwise, no stamina setup is even in the same ballpark of difficulty compared to magicka warden when talking 1vX. Pretty sure, I'd get a lot of agrees here if following up on that.

lucky_dutch · October 2018

templesus wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Speaking on 1vXing ~ Agreed. Stamina classes have higher floors then Magicka classes do (bar stamblade and stamden those 2 should just be removed from the game at this point they are over performing so much) and thus are rightfully better when it comes to 1vXing in general.

Higher input = Higher Output

Higher Floor SHOULD = Higher Ceiling

I actually don't like the floor/ceiling argument. Every class should just have the same ceiling and if some are easier to play than others, so be it.

The most important part of balancing is top-end performance, especially in a game with fairly limited matchmaking.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree. An MMA fighter should beat a black belt in Karate in a fight because what they train in (MMA) has a higher floor then Karate does. Imo that logic should apply to most everything. A job that requires more should pay more then one that doesn’t.

Saying one class should do the same as another but require half the brain cells to operate (obvious exaggeration here) doesn’t make sense to me. If the floors are close, then sure. Elsewise, not so much.

I don’t believe that classes should have different floors in the first place. They should balance classes to all have similar floors and then the equal ceiling argument becomes relevant. You SHOULD be able to pick any class and put in the same amount of effort and get roughly the same results.

It’s completely asinine to tell someone they have to put in more effort to play there class just to get the same results another does.

If pick your favourite class, enjoying playing it and get good with it, so long as the ceiling is the same as another class, you should be able to perform as well as any. Is it any skin off your nose if a less skilled player can do average on an easy class? Certainly doesn't bother me.

The other problem with the floor ceiling argument as it greatly increases the complexity of trying to balance the game as you have to balance for different skill levels. I'd much rather all classes be perfectly balanced at the ceiling and some be easier than others than a game where it's balancing is all over the place.

Anyway, we're straying off-topic here and dangerously close to elitism so lets put that to one side. Point is, PvP balance is weighted heavily in favour of Stam and that's largely because they don't comprimise much damage or sustain by picking heavy armor.

Feanor · October 2018

I’d put magPlar in the top group for small scale and BGs.

templesus · October 2018

Imo they should just disable heavy for PvP. It’s always given players crutches. I remember back in the Bracing days mag dk and magplar could literally block as much as tanks just by throwing on heavy and they were unkillable while still doing damage because anything did damage back then.

Disable heavy, PvP balance increases. Forum whining also increases

Chilly-McFreeze · October 2018

templesus wrote: »

Imo they should just disable heavy for PvP. It’s always given players crutches. I remember back in the Bracing days mag dk and magplar could literally block as much as tanks just by throwing on heavy and they were unkillable while still doing damage because anything did damage back then.

Disable heavy, PvP balance increases. Forum whining also increases

I think Forum whining can't increase much more than it currently is.

Haashhtaag · October 2018

Your list should be setup differently

BGs should have their own ratings.

Solo should have their own

Small scale should have their own

Also magdens are so good in group play.

Also stamblades are not very good small scale class because their damage is essentially single target. You’re better off running the other stam classes because they provide more to aoe group damage which is what small scale needs.

With that said stamblades are very effective in BGs

Haashhtaag · October 2018

Feanor wrote: »

I’d put magPlar in the top group for small scale and BGs.

For healbots yea but for DPS they’re garbage.

Haashhtaag · October 2018

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I'd rate Magicka Warden way higher in Smallscale/BGs.

To be fair, I was referring to DPS setups there. As a healer they can perform. Magplar would be a lot higher if talking in terms of healers too.

My magwarden does both and provides a lot of group utility. The smallest fissures I hit are like 4.5k and I’m consistently hitting 5.5-6k fissures and 3-4K tics on ice ult and I hit good 4-5k clenches and birds consistently depending on what setup I go with. Problem is not a lot of people play magden or can play it effectively.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2018

Stam classes have received buffs basically every patch since CP was added conversely mag classes (mainly templar and sorc) have received nerfs since then

I don't really agree with your list. MagDk is quite strong atm and Stamplar received large buffs this patch specifically but the general sentiment is true. It feels like the combat team is rather skewed towards stam players atm.

I would put this down to the effectiveness of general melee builds in trials more so than pvp performance though I would hope that changes would take into account on a more game wide level though.

DeadlyRecluse · October 2018

I really love when people try to compile tierlists in ESO PvP. It's futility in motion.

....though stamblades are going to be really strong for solo play. On that, we should be able to reach consensus.

lucky_dutch · October 2018

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Stam classes have received buffs basically every patch since CP was added conversely mag classes (mainly templar and sorc) have received nerfs since then

I don't really agree with your list. MagDk is quite strong atm and Stamplar received large buffs this patch specifically but the general sentiment is true. It feels like the combat team is rather skewed towards stam players atm.

I would put this down to the effectiveness of general melee builds in trials more so than pvp performance though I would hope that changes would take into account on a more game wide level though.

mDK was only left so low for 1vX because they have mobility issues. It's quite easy for a group to lock then down. They're the best dps Mag class in BGs though.

Stamplar are fine ofc but I'd still say they're the weakest Stam class albeit by a small margin.

IlCanis_LupuslI · October 2018

lucky_dutch wrote: »

These are DPS setups I'm referring to. Some of the mag classes perform better than this as healer builds.

Small-scale/BGs:
Stamblade

Stamden

Stamsorc

Werewolf

StamDK

Stamplar

MagDK

Magsorc

Magplar

Magblade

Magden

1vX:
Stamblade

Stamden

Stamsorc

StamDK

Stamplar

Magblade

MagSorc

Magplar

MagDK

Magden

Werewolf

Fixed that for you ;-)

Ariades_swe · October 2018

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Speaking on 1vXing ~ Agreed. Stamina classes have higher floors then Magicka classes do (bar stamblade and stamden those 2 should just be removed from the game at this point they are over performing so much) and thus are rightfully better when it comes to 1vXing in general.

Higher input = Higher Output

Higher Floor SHOULD = Higher Ceiling

I actually don't like the floor/ceiling argument. Every class should just have the same ceiling and if some are easier to play than others, so be it.

The most important part of balancing is top-end performance, especially in a game with fairly limited matchmaking.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree. An MMA fighter should beat a black belt in Karate in a fight because what they train in (MMA) has a higher floor then Karate does. Imo that logic should apply to most everything. A job that requires more should pay more then one that doesn’t.

Saying one class should do the same as another but require half the brain cells to operate (obvious exaggeration here) doesn’t make sense to me. If the floors are close, then sure. Elsewise, not so much.

I don’t believe that classes should have different floors in the first place. They should balance classes to all have similar floors and then the equal ceiling argument becomes relevant. You SHOULD be able to pick any class and put in the same amount of effort and get roughly the same results.

The problem is, people won't necessarily agree on your idea about "what requires more" - which then leads to another side discussion, not exactly desirable.

Example: I myself am 100% that no matter what end of the spectrum you place the user skillwise, no stamina setup is even in the same ballpark of difficulty compared to magicka warden when talking 1vX. Pretty sure, I'd get a lot of agrees here if following up on that.

Agreed I feel that my stamclasses infinitely easier to play open world solo than my magdk and my magden.

ak_pvp · October 2018

Based on live.
For BGs DPS is a relative term, classes like magden/DK don't directly kill people so much as get people killed, so I'm going to include anything but pure healers for this one.
BGs:
MagDK. Magden. Stamden. Good dmg and support as part of team.
Magplar. Magsorc. OK dmg, but provides things like wrath/offhealing which helps turn tide.
StamNB. Stamsorc. Very nice dmg and pace, low support but very strong.
StamDK, Stamplar, MagNB. Nice dmg, usable, has their own strengths though not as strong as some, quite low support.

1vX:
Stamden
Stamsorc, StamNB
StamDk
MagNB, MagDK, Stamplar, Magsorc
Magplar
Basically the heavy speedy stambois at top, and the slower classes at the bottom. No surprises.

The game isn't mega biased. I would say that stam has the better toolkit for yolo fun speed builds for the meta, but mag has much more utility.

JWillCHS · October 2018

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I’d put magPlar in the top group for small scale and BGs.

For healbots yea but for DPS they’re garbage.

I agree. Any decent magicka Templar(or any other class) can step in Cyrodiil and a kill X amount of people by her or himself. I don't think that's something people argue.

But if you were to step into a Battleground as a magplar DPS, I bet getting over 1 million damage by the end of the match[that doesn't run out of time] will be a struggle.

ezio45 · October 2018

Small-scale/BGs:

Stamblade
StamDK
Stamplar /Stamden
MagDK
Stamsorc/Magplar
Magblade
Magsorc
Magden

1vX:

Stamblade
Stamplar
Stamden / StamDK
Magblade
Magplar
MagDK
Stamsorc
MagSorc
Magden

This I feel Is probable a more accurate arrangement, at least for me

lucky_dutch · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

Small-scale/BGs:

Stamblade
StamDK
Stamplar /Stamden
MagDK
Stamsorc/Magplar
Magblade
Magsorc
Magden

1vX:

Stamblade
Stamplar
Stamden / StamDK
Magblade
Magplar
MagDK
Stamsorc
MagSorc
Magden

This I feel Is probable a more accurate arrangement, at least for me

I think you’re underrating Stamsorc unfairly. The nerf to their heals sucks for them but in a meta where mobility is down the toilet, their access to minor expedition and a blink is amazing for BGs. They’re also really well setup to take advantage of the impending heavy bleed meta.

Crixus8000 · October 2018

lucky_dutch wrote: »

I think you’re underrating Stamsorc unfairly. The nerf to their heals sucks for them but in a meta where mobility is down the toilet, their access to minor expedition and a blink is amazing for BGs. They’re also really well setup to take advantage of the impending heavy bleed meta.

What stamsorc heal nerf are you referring to please ?

Lieblingsjunge · October 2018

JWillCHS wrote: »

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I’d put magPlar in the top group for small scale and BGs.

For healbots yea but for DPS they’re garbage.

I agree. Any decent magicka Templar(or any other class) can step in Cyrodiil and a kill X amount of people by her or himself. I don't think that's something people argue.

But if you were to step into a Battleground as a magplar DPS, I bet getting over 1 million damage by the end of the match[that doesn't run out of time] will be a struggle.

Not really. I've ran quite a few BGs on my Magplar. Got 1,2 mill dmg and 600k healing as my most. Usually around 800-900k dmg and ~500k healing done. So in a BG, I would argue that magplar is rly good. Also magDK/MagNB is really strong in there. I did duo on my magplar with magnb/magdk. It was so fun, rofl. Killed so many things.

But then you meet a 4-man premade stamden or stamsorc or stamDK group and you just get roflstomped by 3 dawnbreakers and a leap. :^

Also, magplar/magden/magdk lowest on 1vX cus of mobility. Sorcs still do it well, 'cus they have mobility that no other mag-class has. Magplar has a tiny advantage of the other 2 classes, as the purge can be quite helpful.

But every stamina class is above every magicka class in any 1vX. Same for solo BG mostly. As a magicka class, you rely more on your team/people around you, imo. In a lot of cases.

Ragnarock41 · October 2018

I'll be straight I think your list is bad.

lucky_dutch · October 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I'll be straight I think your list is bad.

I’m not an expert at either but for me it’s because Stam can still do loads of damage in heavy whilst magdk (as with all mag classes) takes a massive damage hit to wear heavy.

The nerf to healing ward really hurts LA MagDKs so overall they’re probably a tad behind. Also, no execute is a bit of a factor when considering performance in BGs.

Ragnarock41 · October 2018

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I'll be straight I think your list is bad.

I’m not an expert at either but for me it’s because Stam can still do loads of damage in heavy whilst magdk (as with all mag classes) takes a massive damage hit to wear heavy.

The nerf to healing ward really hurts LA MagDKs so overall they’re probably a tad behind. Also, no execute is a bit of a factor when considering performance in BGs.

I'm sorry but magDk and stamDK in heavy both have about same mobility now. How is stam any better than mag in this case? I don't understand how a MASSIVE nerf to stamina mobility is gonna make magicka worse? Care to explain ?

And magplars/magdens will be borderline neccessary for open world groups(small scale or not) from now on.

Edit: on the topic of healing ward, I would agree for magsorcs but magDK has enough healing options to not be affected too badly.

lucky_dutch · October 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I'll be straight I think your list is bad.

I’m not an expert at either but for me it’s because Stam can still do loads of damage in heavy whilst magdk (as with all mag classes) takes a massive damage hit to wear heavy.

The nerf to healing ward really hurts LA MagDKs so overall they’re probably a tad behind. Also, no execute is a bit of a factor when considering performance in BGs.

I'm sorry but magDk and stamDK in heavy both have about same mobility now. How is stam any better than mag in this case? I don't understand how a MASSIVE nerf to stamina mobility is gonna make magicka worse? Care to explain ?

And magplars/magdens will be borderline neccessary for open world groups(small scale or not) from now on.

Edit: on the topic of healing ward, I would agree for magsorcs but magDK has great self healing options already. And you don't need an execute when your spammable hits like an execute.

StamDKs are top-tier. Stop crying over nothing.

Ragnarock41 · October 2018

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I'll be straight I think your list is bad.

I’m not an expert at either but for me it’s because Stam can still do loads of damage in heavy whilst magdk (as with all mag classes) takes a massive damage hit to wear heavy.

The nerf to healing ward really hurts LA MagDKs so overall they’re probably a tad behind. Also, no execute is a bit of a factor when considering performance in BGs.

I'm sorry but magDk and stamDK in heavy both have about same mobility now. How is stam any better than mag in this case? I don't understand how a MASSIVE nerf to stamina mobility is gonna make magicka worse? Care to explain ?

And magplars/magdens will be borderline neccessary for open world groups(small scale or not) from now on.

Edit: on the topic of healing ward, I would agree for magsorcs but magDK has great self healing options already. And you don't need an execute when your spammable hits like an execute.

StamDKs are top-tier. Stop crying over nothing.

StamDKs are ok. They're however not top tier. You magDk mains are getting really delusional at this point. swift meta is gone, FM is nerfed, speed pots are done for. I'm not crying over nothing, you are.