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Is there anyone on this forum who can defend Earthgore in PvP?
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Earthgore was already nerfed in a prior patch. Its fine as is. Players give up significant burst or sustain from other monster sets to run this.
Agreed. Its only making a comeback because it was just in the Golden and everyone wants to test it out. I suspect that, much like my healer, they'll find that what they had was better.1 -
Nicko_Lps✭✭✭✭✭Earthgore was already nerfed in a prior patch. Its fine as is. Players give up significant burst or sustain from other monster sets to run this.
When that earthgore is worn by 20 zerglings and it constantly removes the negates that should wipe the lagbringers its not fine. But as i said before,zerglings will claim its fine. A silly set removing an ultimate, what a trash solution to boost incapable's zergraid inside cyrodiil1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »I can genuinely find no reason to defend this set. It is arguably right now the most overpowered defensive set (let alone monster set) in the game and it only requires 2 slots.
- It gives a 15-20k burst heal that requires nothing but going under 50% health. This is a PROC set that requires zero player input or ability to react as long as a heal over time (like ritual) is up
- The heal is an AOE so it is essentially a resto ult on demand that undoes your burst to other players if a player with earthgore happens to be near them
- Ok I get it there's a 30 second cooldown - but what about when a player rotates between repentenace/resto ult, tri pots, and other sources of healing. Just when you've finally generated your ultimate again to burst people down, the earthgore is ready to proc again. In fact, the earthgore timer is basically the same as the timer it takes to build an ultimate again.
There is no reason this set should be the way it is in its current state. Sets like this just disguise people's mistakes and what's the point in trying to exploit a players errors when a set like this spoon-feeds them back to full health.
I speak mostly from a small-scale/solo perspective, but honestly I've even seen coordinated groups of 15 vs other groups of 15 and have no one die because of the amount of earthgores proccing. The the direction of the game which is epitomised by sets like earthgore has caused so many good PvPers to leave ESO in droves because of how beginner-friendly this game is becoming with broken sets/abilities that have no counterplay or they offer too much protection to the user. This particularly hurts solo and small-group players the most.
So anyways, someone try to defend this set in its current form in PvP and justify its ability to heal the way it does. I would love to hear it.
You mean people are actually able to concentrate on healing abilities to stay alive through your burst damage?
NERF IT NOW!
sarcasm aside, that is THE POINT of healing - which is to be able to counter damage and stay alive. If someone is able to skillfully rotate a monster set with their ultimate to avoid your burst rotation from killing them then good, that means healing is actually working as intended is of some use.
This is the only MMORPG I've ever played where people expect healing to be useless and not be able to keep people alive through their burst rotations.
I think its more that some people think that getting healing from a set is cheesy and so is getting damage from a set. PVP should 100% be about our skills as players (and our stats from gear/race, and our class, and our weapons).
Its the same complaint about Sloads. "Getting free damage from a set isnt skilled play!" Or for Earthgore "Getting free heals from a set lets bad players crutch on it!"
Its generally the players who already have the PVP experience to eschew things like proc sets who say this, often forgetting what it was like to be a new player and need to have loads of extra defense just to survive more than 2 seconds against another player.
Thats not true of all the people who don't like proc sets, sure. But that is a factor in why ZOS keeps making these sets. The PVP learning curve is pretty steep and new players definitely struggle with learning how to effectively do damage and stay alive.
So I figure its one thing to look at a set and say "ZOS, experienced players are using this set to its full potential and wrecking the competition." That's why Sloads and Earthgore got nerfed originally.
But its another thing to say "All proc sets are cheesy and carry bad players and thus shoukd be removed so that my skillz should reign supreme." Because that's just making it harder for new players to even get into PVP. The more experienced you are, the less you need proc sets...but you have to get that experience first and proc sets help lessen the steep learning curve.
But there is skill involved. Monster sets are just tools to be used to implement an over-all strategy. It's not like anyone can just put on Earthgore and become invincible. So I don't believe their criticisms in that regard have any merit.
And it's not just monster sets. It seems anything that prevents them from being able to kill other players should be nerfed according to them. Anything that gets in the way of their precious "burst rotation" from slaughtering you is broken and needs to be nerfed into uselessness because they are entitled to kill you.
It's a ridiculous way of looking at PvP - and the developers of this game far too often take note of it and appease this foolish sentiment. As I added in my earlier comment, defensive/healing strategies are suppose to keep you alive - that is their entire purpose. Otherwise: what is even the point of making one of these characters?Edited by Jeremy on October 13, 2018 2:32PM10 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Earthgore was already nerfed in a prior patch. Its fine as is. Players give up significant burst or sustain from other monster sets to run this.
When that earthgore is worn by 20 zerglings and it constantly removes the negates that should wipe the lagbringers its not fine. But as i said before,zerglings will claim its fine. A silly set removing an ultimate, what a trash solution to boost incapable's zergraid inside cyrodiil
If you take anything and multiply it by x20 it's going to be bad. That has nothing to do with the monster set itself. It has to do with the fact you have 20 people using it.
That's what happens in "large scale PvP". Large numbers create large advantages. The only difference is for once DPS builds are feeling the effects of what a defensive zerg feels like instead of the other way around, which has been us feeling the effects of offensive zergs.
So I don't see the problem. It's par for the course as I see it.Edited by Jeremy on October 13, 2018 2:42PM9 -
Ajantisz✭✭✭
Talk about a perspectiveless whinge.Emma_Overload wrote: »It has a very long cooldown for the individual wearing it. What you are really complaining about is zergs using it over and over.
No no did you read my post? The amount of people in zergs who equip esrthgore is a problem, yes, but the set itself is inherently broken because it procs without the player even having to react to burst as long as a heal over time is on (which is always the case considering the same people who use earthgore are usually the ones who spam rapid regen and healing springs)..
Also, as I said before the individual wearing it doesn't have to care about the cooldown because if you can intelligently rotate the proc with potions and defensive ultimates, you can effectively be immune to any burst.
So you think Earthgore should have some sort of player control to it...Okay then, propose a mechanism for this, and similar for every other monster set that procs without player direct action. Also propose a method of healing that doesnt involve healers utilising the mechanics of healing to keep their heals up on their groups that isnt "spamming", or is it only spamming if they use Earthgore. Perhaps consider trying a simple experiment called 'reframing', take your argument and premise and apply your thoughts and positions to yourself or a different situation and see if suddenly it isnt totally unfair. I have little doubt that if you actually examined your own play style critically that you "spam" particular attacks, bait procs etc, all play that to someone else or to someone on the receiving end seeems unfair or has low counterplay, but for you is all good in the hood.
Edited by Ajantisz on October 13, 2018 3:05PM1 -
nemvar✭✭✭✭✭Earthgore was already nerfed in a prior patch. Its fine as is. Players give up significant burst or sustain from other monster sets to run this.
When that earthgore is worn by 20 zerglings and it constantly removes the negates that should wipe the lagbringers its not fine. But as i said before,zerglings will claim its fine. A silly set removing an ultimate, what a trash solution to boost incapable's zergraid inside cyrodiil
If you take anything and multiply it by x20 it's going to be bad. That has nothing to do with the monster set itself. It has to do with the fact you have 20 people using it.
That's what happens in "large scale PvP". Large numbers create large advantages. The only difference is for once DPS builds are feeling the effects of what a defensive zerg feels like instead of the other way around, which has been us feeling the effects of offensive zergs.
So I don't see the problem. It's par for the course as I see it.
You don't see the problem with a completly braindead set removing all skillful counterplay? What a world we live in.
Just bring more people. Just do it. It's fun, engaging and not at all ***.1 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Earthgore was already nerfed in a prior patch. Its fine as is. Players give up significant burst or sustain from other monster sets to run this.
When that earthgore is worn by 20 zerglings and it constantly removes the negates that should wipe the lagbringers its not fine. But as i said before,zerglings will claim its fine. A silly set removing an ultimate, what a trash solution to boost incapable's zergraid inside cyrodiil
If you take anything and multiply it by x20 it's going to be bad. That has nothing to do with the monster set itself. It has to do with the fact you have 20 people using it.
That's what happens in "large scale PvP". Large numbers create large advantages. The only difference is for once DPS builds are feeling the effects of what a defensive zerg feels like instead of the other way around, which has been us feeling the effects of offensive zergs.
So I don't see the problem. It's par for the course as I see it.
You don't see the problem with a completly braindead set removing all skillful counterplay? What a world we live in.
Just bring more people. Just do it. It's fun, engaging and not at all ***.
What is "skillful" counter play?
Spamming an offensive braindead ability or offensive set proc.
What is your build?4 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭YeahEarthgore was already nerfed in a prior patch. Its fine as is. Players give up significant burst or sustain from other monster sets to run this.
When that earthgore is worn by 20 zerglings and it constantly removes the negates that should wipe the lagbringers its not fine. But as i said before,zerglings will claim its fine. A silly set removing an ultimate, what a trash solution to boost incapable's zergraid inside cyrodiil
If you take anything and multiply it by x20 it's going to be bad. That has nothing to do with the monster set itself. It has to do with the fact you have 20 people using it.
That's what happens in "large scale PvP". Large numbers create large advantages. The only difference is for once DPS builds are feeling the effects of what a defensive zerg feels like instead of the other way around, which has been us feeling the effects of offensive zergs.
So I don't see the problem. It's par for the course as I see it.
You don't see the problem with a completly braindead set removing all skillful counterplay? What a world we live in.
Just bring more people. Just do it. It's fun, engaging and not at all ***.
Let’s say you meet an earthgore user 1 v 1. Do you have any issues with them? Generally no. You’ll do your burst combo, they’ll maybe live once.
Even a craptastic set like Ashen grip will be a problem on a 1 v 20.4 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »Earthgore was already nerfed in a prior patch. Its fine as is. Players give up significant burst or sustain from other monster sets to run this.
When that earthgore is worn by 20 zerglings and it constantly removes the negates that should wipe the lagbringers its not fine. But as i said before,zerglings will claim its fine. A silly set removing an ultimate, what a trash solution to boost incapable's zergraid inside cyrodiil
If you take anything and multiply it by x20 it's going to be bad. That has nothing to do with the monster set itself. It has to do with the fact you have 20 people using it.
That's what happens in "large scale PvP". Large numbers create large advantages. The only difference is for once DPS builds are feeling the effects of what a defensive zerg feels like instead of the other way around, which has been us feeling the effects of offensive zergs.
So I don't see the problem. It's par for the course as I see it.
You don't see the problem with a completly braindead set removing all skillful counterplay? What a world we live in.
Just bring more people. Just do it. It's fun, engaging and not at all ***.
What is "skillful" counter play?
Spamming an offensive braindead ability or offensive set proc.
What is your build?
They usually won’t respond. I’m sure some whacked out streamer copy.
“Pure skill brah”2 -
Ajantisz✭✭✭
All this "skillful counter play" that gets thrown around is practically meaningless as a phrase except to a vested interest group of people who want to believe their style is the "skillful" way of playing and everyone else is just cheap or easymode noobskill trash. I have zero doubt if you posted your character build and skill set that you use that there are players out there who will happily and with justification call everything you use braindead. But hey, I mean surely if Earthgore is so braindead it should be easy for a skillful player to outplay it, right?Earthgore was already nerfed in a prior patch. Its fine as is. Players give up significant burst or sustain from other monster sets to run this.
When that earthgore is worn by 20 zerglings and it constantly removes the negates that should wipe the lagbringers its not fine. But as i said before,zerglings will claim its fine. A silly set removing an ultimate, what a trash solution to boost incapable's zergraid inside cyrodiil
If you take anything and multiply it by x20 it's going to be bad. That has nothing to do with the monster set itself. It has to do with the fact you have 20 people using it.
That's what happens in "large scale PvP". Large numbers create large advantages. The only difference is for once DPS builds are feeling the effects of what a defensive zerg feels like instead of the other way around, which has been us feeling the effects of offensive zergs.
So I don't see the problem. It's par for the course as I see it.
You don't see the problem with a completly braindead set removing all skillful counterplay? What a world we live in.
Just bring more people. Just do it. It's fun, engaging and not at all ***.
5 -
Juju_beans✭✭✭✭✭
✭Is Earthgore now the new OP set of the month ?
Seems there are cycles where a specific monster set is declared "OP" and then everyone jumps on the bandwagon.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Earthgore was already nerfed in a prior patch. Its fine as is. Players give up significant burst or sustain from other monster sets to run this.
When that earthgore is worn by 20 zerglings and it constantly removes the negates that should wipe the lagbringers its not fine. But as i said before,zerglings will claim its fine. A silly set removing an ultimate, what a trash solution to boost incapable's zergraid inside cyrodiil
If you take anything and multiply it by x20 it's going to be bad. That has nothing to do with the monster set itself. It has to do with the fact you have 20 people using it.
That's what happens in "large scale PvP". Large numbers create large advantages. The only difference is for once DPS builds are feeling the effects of what a defensive zerg feels like instead of the other way around, which has been us feeling the effects of offensive zergs.
So I don't see the problem. It's par for the course as I see it.
You don't see the problem with a completly braindead set removing all skillful counterplay? What a world we live in.
Just bring more people. Just do it. It's fun, engaging and not at all ***.
But it doesn't remove all counterplay. Multiple people have pointed out the counterplay - proc the Earthgore first, then press the attack home.
Is that easier said than done? Perhaps. On the other hand, we've been handling Earthgore fine since its last nerf.
Earthgore hasn't been a big problem since the nerf, and its only a problem now because everyone is trying it out. Give it a bit for everyone to work it out of their systems and settle into a meta, and then if its overperforming still ZOS can give it another look.0 -
RedRook✭✭✭✭It's a really comfortable crutch. I use it in PVE, healing in the harder dungeons.
It doesn't belong in PVP.
Can't have damaging abilities that also stun anymore because that's OP, but here's a hat that will throw down a healing ult for you while you fight. #balance1 -
Ajantisz✭✭✭It's a really comfortable crutch. I use it in PVE, healing in the harder dungeons.
It doesn't belong in PVP.
Can't have damaging abilities that also stun anymore because that's OP, but here's a hat that will throw down a healing ult for you while you fight. #balance
#Balance
Because there is such an overwhelming number of healing-centric ults that are decent in large scale PvP who needs more right?Edited by Ajantisz on October 13, 2018 3:43PM3 -
RedRook✭✭✭✭It's a really comfortable crutch. I use it in PVE, healing in the harder dungeons.
It doesn't belong in PVP.
Can't have damaging abilities that also stun anymore because that's OP, but here's a hat that will throw down a healing ult for you while you fight. #balance
#Balance
Because there was such an overwhelming number of healing-centric ults that are decent in large scale PvP who needs more right?
Right! Why should a templar have to stand motionless for four full seconds and use up all their ultimate, and sacrifice a slot they could use for fighting, just to heal an entire group of people and reset the fight? So inconvenient.0 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Actually I tried Earthgore on my magplar and found it meh as I have to let a group member or myself fall to 50% health for it to work and I usually keep them healed better than that or else they fall into execute range.
A good group healer and a negate sorc work much better.Edited by TequilaFire on October 13, 2018 3:53PM2 -
Ajantisz✭✭✭
#BalanceIt's a really comfortable crutch. I use it in PVE, healing in the harder dungeons.
It doesn't belong in PVP.
Can't have damaging abilities that also stun anymore because that's OP, but here's a hat that will throw down a healing ult for you while you fight. #balance
#Balance
Because there was such an overwhelming number of healing-centric ults that are decent in large scale PvP who needs more right?
Right! Why should a templar have to stand motionless for four full seconds and use up all their ultimate, and sacrifice a slot they could use for fighting, just to heal an entire group of people and reset the fight? So inconvenient.
Because everyone is a templar (please show more how small your perspective is).
Because that skill is average in small scale and terrible in large scale battles where everyone always stands within 20m of a templar healer.Edited by Ajantisz on October 13, 2018 4:11PM0 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭instead of nerfing the set itself add this:
Players effected by Earthgore proc can not be effected again for 24 seconds <Roughly the time for the heal to fade and proc to respawn.
It will not proc on those with the debuff, only those w/o.
This way it doesn't change the set for PvE. Having multiple players with this set is however less useful.Edited by karekiz on October 13, 2018 4:14PM0 -
weedgenius✭✭✭✭✭
✭Red_Feather wrote: »This topic is now just OP arguing.
Exactly what I was saying... this whole thread is just OP baiting people into voicing an opinion so he can yell at them
PS4 NA
Better Homes & Gardens7 -
RedRook✭✭✭✭
#BalanceIt's a really comfortable crutch. I use it in PVE, healing in the harder dungeons.
It doesn't belong in PVP.
Can't have damaging abilities that also stun anymore because that's OP, but here's a hat that will throw down a healing ult for you while you fight. #balance
#Balance
Because there was such an overwhelming number of healing-centric ults that are decent in large scale PvP who needs more right?
Right! Why should a templar have to stand motionless for four full seconds and use up all their ultimate, and sacrifice a slot they could use for fighting, just to heal an entire group of people and reset the fight? So inconvenient.
Because everyone is a templar (please show more how small your perspective is).
Because that skill is average in small scale and terrible in large scale battles where everyone always stands within 20m of a templar healer.
I'm agreeing with you, man. Ready and waiting for my hat that throws down permafrost every 30 seconds when I'm taking melee damage.0 -
TheKingofSass✭✭✭✭These nerf threads are worse then diarrhea. Good lord, my dude, pve also exists. I got that damned helmet by completing the dungeon on vet, so don't you dare to cry for a nerf for this set just cause some folks easily bought it from the golden vendor and use it in their *** zerg clique in pvp. Earthgore is FINE AS IT IS."Remember, darkness does not always equate to evil, just as light does not always bring good."
Nifereti
500 CP+┇Altmer┇Vampire Magblade┇AD
Alyäia Morningstar
500 CP+┇Altmer┇Vampire Magplar┇AD
Poison Avy
500 CP+┇Bosmer┇Werewolf Stamden┇EP
Tronto Ebur
500 CP+┇Imperial┇Frosted Tankden┇EP
Azaerani
500 CP+┇Dunmer┇Dovah Kendov MagKnight┇DC4 -
brandonv516✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Require 5 pieces:
Draugr's Heritage
Under 35% HP, get 6349 HP, 20 sec CD
Juggernaut
Under 30% HP, get 18060 HP, 1 min CD
Song of Lamae
Under 30% HP, get 3870 HP, 30 sec CD
Requires 2 pieces:
Earthgore
Heal under 50% HP, get 30,000 HP over 6 seconds, purges damage, 35 sec CD
We all know it's OP. Doesn't mean I'm not going to use it.Edited by brandonv516 on October 13, 2018 5:04PM4 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭brandonv516 wrote: »Require 5 pieces:
Draugr's Heritage
Under 35% HP, get 6349 HP, 20 sec CD
Juggernaut
Under 30% HP, get 18060 HP, 1 min CD
Song of Lamae
Under 30% HP, get 3870 HP, 30 sec CD
Requires 2 pieces:
Earthgore
Heal under 50% HP, get 30,000 HP over 6 seconds, purges damage, 35 sec CD
We all know it's OP. Doesn't mean I'm not going to use it.
Comparing dungeon, overland, and PVP 5 piece sets to a DLC monster set. Yep, makes total sense.
At least compare apples to apples if you are going to make that your argument, please!Edited by VaranisArano on October 13, 2018 5:13PM5 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭Odd set. I dont think any solo player is going to ever slot it, but it over performs in zergs...how 2 fix.0 -
The_Brosteen✭✭✭✭✭You can kill someone through an earthgore. Its mainly when there an over abundance of heals going on already that earthgore seems op. I do think the cooldown should be doubled though or at least increased.0
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Ruckly✭✭✭✭I use juggernaut with pirate skeleton on my magplar and I don't consider 1 minute to be that long in pvp.
I passed on earthgore. The 2% increase to healing isn't much. The proc itself doesn't seem that reliable. Vigor/cleansing ritual is aoe so someone else might use your earthgore proc. If it procs off of HoT pots or momentum on a heavy armor build it might be op in that one case but then your aren't healing others with vigor. Or it might be op on a NB using strife/momentum.
It might be op in ball zergs depending on how the engine discriminates procs. 20 people with 20 stacks of vigor and earthgore standing on a gate with ram can probably eat oil indefinatly if the engine procs the set perfectly so a double proc doesn't happen from HoT that go off a fraction of a second from each other. If a one second delay was put on earthgore from when a player hits 50% hp(+ heal) and when it goes off and the proc counts when the player hits 50% hp(+ heal) and not when it goes off then its usefulness in zergs would diminish.Edited by Ruckly on October 13, 2018 6:12PM0 -
brandonv516✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »brandonv516 wrote: »Require 5 pieces:
Draugr's Heritage
Under 35% HP, get 6349 HP, 20 sec CD
Juggernaut
Under 30% HP, get 18060 HP, 1 min CD
Song of Lamae
Under 30% HP, get 3870 HP, 30 sec CD
Requires 2 pieces:
Earthgore
Heal under 50% HP, get 30,000 HP over 6 seconds, purges damage, 35 sec CD
We all know it's OP. Doesn't mean I'm not going to use it.
Comparing dungeon, overland, and PVP 5 piece sets to a DLC monster set. Yep, makes total sense.
At least compare apples to apples if you are going to make that your argument, please!
You missed the point but it's okay. I'm good with Earthgore being the way it is (overpowered).
Gear found in harder content should be worthwhile but a 2 piece putting to shame 5 piece sets? I'd rather those sets be improved than Earthgore nerfed.0 -
misfitmanic✭✭✭I will defend it. I use it to heal zergs both when grouped with them or when running solo. I also use it to heal trial groups. I worked hard to get it right after it dropped. It has already been nerfed once since then in a very noticeable way, so I would appreciate if it was left the way it is going forward. If it gets nerfed again, I will simply find something better and grind for it, then return to the salt mines until the next round of nerfs.
TL;DR
Adapt or die.4 -
Exodium✭✭✭✭Earthgore was already nerfed in a prior patch. Its fine as is. Players give up significant burst or sustain from other monster sets to run this.
When that earthgore is worn by 20 zerglings and it constantly removes the negates that should wipe the lagbringers its not fine. But as i said before,zerglings will claim its fine. A silly set removing an ultimate, what a trash solution to boost incapable's zergraid inside cyrodiil
I honestly want to see the tool tip of earthgore compared to the tool tip of a resto ultimate. Im pretty sure the healing values are very similar, but the conditions are different.
Resto ultimate requires 125 ult (takes close to a minute to get in combat) and requires player input/reaction. Esrthgore procs on its own under 50%, only takes 30 seconds to reproc AND only requires using two pieces of armour compared to taking up an ultimate slot.
ZoS, Can I also have an aoe monster set that procs a destro ultimate every thirty seconds? I think that's fair..Edited by Exodium on October 13, 2018 7:32PM1