Breton at the moment is the Nord of Magicka Races

code65536 wrote: »

This doesn't make any sense. Heavy armor adds resistance of its own because it's heavy, but that doesn't amplify any other source of resistance. You get the same mitigation from the Breton passive whether you are wearing light, medium, heavy, or running around in your birthday suit.

@code65536 Let me rephrase and include an example. If a light armor user has 9.9k resistance they get 15% mitigation from this and therefore take 85% of incoming damage. Add the 3960 Breton passive and this goes up to 21% mitigation or 79% of incoming damage. If an attack hits a non-Breton for 100 damage, the base value of the attack was 100/0.85=117.6, and the Breton will only be hit for 117.6x0.79=93 damage. Being a Breton therefore reduces the incoming damage by 7%.

Now for the heavy armor case. Let’s say someone has 29040 resistance for 44% mitigation, so they take 56% of incoming damage. Add the 3960 Breton passive here and their mitigation goes up to 50%, so they take half the value of incoming damage. If an attack hits a non-Breton for 100 damage, then the base value of the attack was 100/0.56=178.6, and the Breton hit by the same attack would take 178.6x0.5=89 damage. Being a Breton therefore reduced incoming damage by 11% (apparently my earlier 12% was an exaggeration, this is the real maximum of the Breton passive).

My point here is that an unarmored player will get 6% damage reduction from the Breton passive, a light armored player will get 7%, and a heavy armored player could see up to 11%. This is a contrast to other forms of mitigation like Minor Protection, that gives exactly 8% regardless of your build. The Nord passive is also static, giving exactly 6% and not dependent on any other stats.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

This doesn't make any sense. Heavy armor adds resistance of its own because it's heavy, but that doesn't amplify any other source of resistance. You get the same mitigation from the Breton passive whether you are wearing light, medium, heavy, or running around in your birthday suit.

@code65536 Let me rephrase and include an example. If a light armor user has 9.9k resistance they get 15% mitigation from this and therefore take 85% of incoming damage. Add the 3960 Breton passive and this goes up to 21% mitigation or 79% of incoming damage. If an attack hits a non-Breton for 100 damage, the base value of the attack was 100/0.85=117.6, and the Breton will only be hit for 117.6x0.79=93 damage. Being a Breton therefore reduces the incoming damage by 7%.

Now for the heavy armor case. Let’s say someone has 29040 resistance for 44% mitigation, so they take 56% of incoming damage. Add the 3960 Breton passive here and their mitigation goes up to 50%, so they take half the value of incoming damage. If an attack hits a non-Breton for 100 damage, then the base value of the attack was 100/0.56=178.6, and the Breton hit by the same attack would take 178.6x0.5=89 damage. Being a Breton therefore reduced incoming damage by 11% (apparently my earlier 12% was an exaggeration, this is the real maximum of the Breton passive).

My point here is that an unarmored player will get 6% damage reduction from the Breton passive, a light armored player will get 7%, and a heavy armored player could see up to 11%. This is a contrast to other forms of mitigation like Minor Protection, that gives exactly 8% regardless of your build. The Nord passive is also static, giving exactly 6% and not dependent on any other stats.

Looking at the same post-resist hit value and working backwards is a very odd way of going about this.

Let's say an attack has a base value of 100 damage.

• Against a naked player with no mitigation, it will hit for 100 damage.
• Against a naked player with just the Breton passive, it will hit for 94 damage.
• Against an armored player with 20% mitigation, the attack hits for 80.
• Against an armored Breton, the attack hits for 74.

So what you're arguing is that in the armored case, the player takes 74 damage instead of 80 by being a Breton, which is a reduction of 7.5% from 80.

And what I'm saying is that in both cases, being a Breton reduced the damage by exactly 6% of the base. Or to put it another way, the absolute value of the mitigation is always the same and doesn't matter what gear you wear. Now, if you want to compare relative to something else, that's fine, but IMHO that's a bit misleading.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

This doesn't make any sense. Heavy armor adds resistance of its own because it's heavy, but that doesn't amplify any other source of resistance. You get the same mitigation from the Breton passive whether you are wearing light, medium, heavy, or running around in your birthday suit.

@code65536 Let me rephrase and include an example. If a light armor user has 9.9k resistance they get 15% mitigation from this and therefore take 85% of incoming damage. Add the 3960 Breton passive and this goes up to 21% mitigation or 79% of incoming damage. If an attack hits a non-Breton for 100 damage, the base value of the attack was 100/0.85=117.6, and the Breton will only be hit for 117.6x0.79=93 damage. Being a Breton therefore reduces the incoming damage by 7%.

Now for the heavy armor case. Let’s say someone has 29040 resistance for 44% mitigation, so they take 56% of incoming damage. Add the 3960 Breton passive here and their mitigation goes up to 50%, so they take half the value of incoming damage. If an attack hits a non-Breton for 100 damage, then the base value of the attack was 100/0.56=178.6, and the Breton hit by the same attack would take 178.6x0.5=89 damage. Being a Breton therefore reduced incoming damage by 11% (apparently my earlier 12% was an exaggeration, this is the real maximum of the Breton passive).

My point here is that an unarmored player will get 6% damage reduction from the Breton passive, a light armored player will get 7%, and a heavy armored player could see up to 11%. This is a contrast to other forms of mitigation like Minor Protection, that gives exactly 8% regardless of your build. The Nord passive is also static, giving exactly 6% and not dependent on any other stats.

Looking at the same post-resist hit value and working backwards is a very odd way of going about this.

Let's say an attack has a base value of 100 damage.

• Against a naked player with no mitigation, it will hit for 100 damage.
• Against a naked player with just the Breton passive, it will hit for 94 damage.
• Against an armored player with 20% mitigation, the attack hits for 80.
• Against an armored Breton, the attack hits for 74.

So what you're arguing is that in the armored case, the player takes 74 damage instead of 80 by being a Breton, which is a reduction of 7.5% from 80.

And what I'm saying is that in both cases, being a Breton reduced the damage by exactly 6% of the base. Or to put it another way, the absolute value of the mitigation is always the same and doesn't matter what gear you wear. Now, if you want to compare relative to something else, that's fine, but IMHO that's a bit misleading.

@code65536 I see what you’re saying. Comparing to the base value of an attack, the resistance passive will reduce the incoming damage by the same flat amount. I just mean that comparing to any other % damage reduction bonuses, the resistance calculation gets relatively better when stacking other sources of resistance. This is the only value in the mitigation equation that is additive instead of multiplicative.

I guess it’s a matter of opinion which method is more intuitive. In my line of work we quantify improvements based on the performance difference between a before and an after state, using the before as a baseline. I find that using a baseline that is worse than the “before” state (like unmitigated incoming damage) leads to less useful data when discussing % gains. All I really care about is how much damage I take without the Breton passive, and how much I take with it. How much damage I would have taken if naked doesn’t really affect how I need to build.

I suppose all this confusion could be eliminated if they made the Breton passive something like “Reduces incoming magic and elemental damage by 10%”. Then regardless of other armor and mitigation stats, any hit for 100 damage would be reduced to 90. This would be a slight buff to light armor defense, and a slight nerf to heavy armor Bretons.

Reducing by a % may end up with diminishing returns - ZoS maths can get a bit wierd sometimes. Just think of it as a straight 6% of the original damage less - makes life much easier and more intuitive imho. Otherwise you have to start considering cp in spell shield or extra resistances from armour sets/glyphs etc.

Lore friendly way would be Bretons gain magicka back by getting hit or so. 800 or whatever Redguard passive returns every 5 seconds.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Any more thoughts on this?

Realize that nothing will ever be 100% perfectly balanced class for class and race for race. Once you realize this and play the race/class you like you will focus more on enjoying the game versus analyzing it to death.

Just for note, Bretons have nothing to do with dragons as the sons of akatosh didnt even interact with them, their magic affinity merely comes from knife ear blood.