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Let’s Talk Breton Passives

WrathOfInnos
WrathOfInnos
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I think Bretons have a reputation for being a little underpowered compared to other races. I want to explore why, by how much, and how to fix it. Diving right in we’ll start with:


Gift of Magnus: 10% Max Magicka
This one is completely fine. Balanced compared to other similar passives, like Altmer’s 10% Mag, or Imperial and Redguard’s 10% Stam.


Spell Resistance: 3960 Spell Resistance
This is a useful defensive bonus, and with the upcoming changes to shields will be even more beneficial. For light armor builds, this works out to 7-9% reduction in incoming damage from spells. Heavy armor builds get a little more out of this one, and can see up to 12% reduced damage from spells. Since resistances are effectively increasing your survivability by this amount we can approximately compare this passive to a health bonus, like Imperial’s 12%, Argonian’s 10% or Nord’s 9%.

For incoming spells these are all on par, but Breton’s does nothing against physical attacks. For lore reasons this is a good design, but I think the magnitude should be adjusted to make up for it. Simply doubling the spell resistance to account for it only covering half of damage would be too much IMO. I would recommend only a 50% increase, to give 1980, 3960, and 5940 at ranks 1, 2, and 3. For a typical light armor user this would mean about 12% reduction in damage from spells. Another interesting comparison here would be the Nord’s damage reduction passive, which is a flat 6% to spells and physical, so this proposed buff seems balanced.


Magicka Mastery: 3% Spell Cost Reduction
This passive seems to exist so that Bretons can be a sustain race, like Redguard, Argonian, and Bosmer. However the numbers do not work out favorably. Looking first at other races, Redguard’s main sustain passive returns 158 stamina/s. Argonian’s potion passive returns
103 of all 3 resources per second (as well as a 3% Magicka bonus on the same passive).

Now Breton, in a best case scenario for this passive, a Magicka skill is cast every second, no heavy attacks, avoiding boss mechanics, and no cost reduction glyphs are used (they diminish effects of % reductions). In typical DPS rotations, this results in an average of 2000-2500 Magicka drain per second (before any % cost reductions). This means Breton’s 3% results in 60-75 Magicka/s saved. This could easily be doubled to 6% Magicka cost reduction (giving 120-150 Mag/s) and still be on par with other racial sustain passives. Even just going to 5% would go a long way toward making Breton stand out for sustain.


Overall, I think Breton’s are a well designed class. I’ve gotten to the point where I like the unique flavor this class brings, and I don’t think the solution to their shortcomings is to slap on a % magic damage increase. Some minor adjustments to the existing passives would be consistent with the lite and previous games, while making Breton more comparable to other races in effectiveness. Thanks for reading.
Edited by WrathOfInnos on October 5, 2018 5:56AM
  • DoobZ69
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    Just buy a race change token. Banging your head against the wall here.
    Edited by DoobZ69 on October 5, 2018 9:23AM
  • Joosef_Kivikilpi
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    Gift of Magnus: 10% Max Magicka
    This one is completely fine. Balanced compared to other similar passives, like Altmer’s 10% Mag, or Imperial and Redguard’s 10% Stam.

    Spell Resistance: 3960 Spell Resistance
    This is a useful defensive bonus, and with the upcoming changes to shields will be even more beneficial. For light armor builds, this works out to 7-9% reduction in incoming damage from spells. Heavy armor builds get a little more out of this one, and can see up to 12% reduced damage from spells. Since resistances are effectively increasing your survivability by this amount we can approximately compare this passive to a health bonus, like Imperial’s 12%, Argonian’s 10% or Nord’s 9%.

    Magicka Mastery: 3% Spell Cost Reduction
    This passive seems to exist so that Bretons can be a sustain race, like Redguard, Argonian, and Bosmer. However the numbers do not work out favorably. Looking first at other races, Redguard’s main sustain passive returns 158 stamina/s. Argonian’s potion passive returns
    103 of all 3 resources per second (as well as a 3% Magicka bonus on the same passive).

    I have a few suggestions and comments:

    b. As one who has main'd multiple Bretons in every single role about (even Stamina versions), I totally feel you. The Spell Resistance passive should be increased for the lack of physical damage protection OR should be called "Dragon Skin" (speaking lore-wise), absorbing a % portion of all magicka and elemental damage received into magicka as well as giving the above spell resistance. I haven't done the math to see what percentage would be fair, but let's say 5% at rank 3 of all magic/elemental damage received absorbed.

    10000 magic damage funnel health hit taken by enemy = 500 magick absorbed. (if you get hit with WAY higher magicka damage, you'd restore more of course with the base percentage absorb)

    Granted, that'd be OP as heck against spellcasters BUT Bretons are a magically defensive racially-speaking, and that complete passive is worth nothing still against stamina users. Risk and reward.

    c. Concerning the passive spellcost reduction, it should be right in line with the Nord's 6% damage reduction. It should be 6% spellcost reduction, ESPECIALLY with the mechanic that spellcost reduction also decreases effectiveness of spellcost enchantments. Comparatively speaking, Orcs get 5% melee damage increase + 12% sprint speed reduction + 10% sprint speed increase... like WHAT? Redguards get their Adrenaline Rush stam sustain. High Elves get 4% elemental damage increase AND magicka recovery of 10%... which is 150 magicka regen on an average magicka player, but can be more depending on how much you stack recovery... which is constant recovery, not spellcost reduction which only activates when you cast a spell... and Bretons are described in the character creation for having magicka recovery etc etc, yet get beat out by High Elves on that oft times.

    BUT... I would not change both of the passives above, only to choose one... because they'd be broken op spellcaster vs spellcaster with so much absorbtion and spellcost reduction. Just ideas I have thought of a lot. Great post. Bretons are good, but situational... and I'm tired of only seeing Argonian Mageblades due to their broken sustain from potions. I'm all about diversity in each race's uniqueness.
  • WrathOfInnos
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    DoobZ69 wrote: »
    Just buy a race change token. Banging your head against the wall here.

    Lol, I have optimal races leveled for every class. Not what this post is about.
  • Donny_Vito
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    When was the last time ESO updated a races passives?
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Donny_Vito wrote: »
    When was the last time ESO updated a races passives?

    Bosmer got their 21% stamina regen in 2016. I can’t remember the exact date, but I think Argonians were buffed to their current state in 2017. Maybe 2018 will be the year for Bretons.
  • Silver_Strider
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    Spell Resist: Add 1320/2640/3960 Spell Resistance. Add 1/2/3% Max Health
    Magicka Mastery: 1/2/3% Spell Cost Reduction. Increase Magic Regen by 1/3/5%

    Just my personal thoughts.
    Argonian forever
  • Donny_Vito
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    Make some of these proposed changes and you'll basically see only: Redguard StamDPS and Breton MagDPS.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    Spell Resist: Add 1320/2640/3960 Spell Resistance. Add 1/2/3% Max Health
    Magicka Mastery: 1/2/3% Spell Cost Reduction. Increase Magic Regen by 1/3/5%

    Just my personal thoughts.

    Yes, those changes are pretty much equivalent to mine, just done with 2 stats instead of one. I would be fine with this.
    Donny_Vito wrote: »
    Make some of these proposed changes and you'll basically see only: Redguard StamDPS and Breton MagDPS.

    I highly doubt that, comparing stamina races is a very different situation. Redguard is on top because the best damage race (Khajiit) has a crit bonus but lacks a max resource bonus, which is also important for DPS. On the Magicka side both Altmer and Dunmer have a Max Magicka bonus in addition to their raw damage passives. Most PVE builds don’t even care about defensive stats, so it would be hard to convince people that a sturdy race is superior to their glass cannon. As far as sustain, if Breton and Redguard became overused this would be a testament to the state of sustain in the game. Sustain is definitely a pain point, and I’m still hoping for some positive changes to walk back some of the Morrowind sustain nerfs at some points by in the future.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on October 5, 2018 4:17PM
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Any more thoughts on this?
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    Any more thoughts on this?

    Thoughts are that if you don't have a passive that increases damage, like dark elves or the high elves, it does not matter how good the sustain is, no one will want to choose a Breton over them.
    Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on October 9, 2018 6:39AM
  • aeowulf
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    Any more thoughts on this?

    yeah, there are races worse off than Breton. Nord and Imperial spring to mind... Whilst I don't disagree that races also need to be balanced, the big picture needs to be looked at. Neither of the two I mentioned have any sustain at all for example. That kinda makes it almost impossible to balance class sustain because with careful racial selection some will have enough. Racial traits should not be the answer to any class based short comings.
    Edited by aeowulf on October 9, 2018 7:11AM
  • idk
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    No offense but comparing the stam sustain for redguard to the magicka cost reduction does not seem appropriate since it is not comparable. Probably better to compare to the High Elf.

    Also, when comparing the Bretton sustain to the Argonian sustain one must look at the rest since the Argonian will obviously so much less damage.

    The whole picture must be looked at. Not picking and selecting as it skews the picture as the explanation in the OP certainly does.

    I would also suggest it would be challenging to find the correct % based cost reduction. In PvE top DPS do not stack magicka regen so 5% could very well be OP compared to the ~90 magicka regen the Altimer passive provides. However, a healer can easily have 2k magicka regen and same in PvP so that cost reduction would be closer to what they would get from the Altimer passive.

    So, again, not so easy to find the right answer.
  • Moonsorrow
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    Spell Resist: Add 1320/2640/3960 Spell Resistance. Add 1/2/3% Max Health
    Magicka Mastery: 1/2/3% Spell Cost Reduction. Increase Magic Regen by 1/3/5%

    Just my personal thoughts.

    This looks decent, i like it.
  • Tryxus
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    Opportunist: Increases your experience gain with the Light Armor skill line by 15%. Increases your Alliance Points gained by 1%.
    Gift of Magnus: Increases your Max Magicka by 10%.
    Arcane Mastery: Increases your Spell Resistance by 3960 and reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 3%.
    Dragonskin: When taking damage, you restore 392 Magicka. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.
    "Stand strong, stay true and shelter all."
    Tryxus - Guardian of the Green - Warden - PC/EU
  • Maryal
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    Donny_Vito wrote: »
    When was the last time ESO updated a races passives?

    I can't remember exactly when (I think it was 2016), but every race was effected. It was at that time when each race was also given a 'flavor passive' - my race's flavor passive was reduced damage from falls. Another race's flavor passive was (I think) 1% increase in AP gained. Except for some of the 'flavor passives', the racial passives are fundamental and lore friendly, and as such they are rarely changed or tweeked. Because of this, the game offers players the opportunity to buy a race change token from the crown store (if they become unhappy with what they initially chose).
    Edited by Maryal on October 9, 2018 11:39AM
  • SydneyGrey
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    I did a race change on a magicka nightblade from Breton to High Elf, so his build was identical except for the race change. The High Elf version was WAY more powerful. I also have a Dark Elf magicka nighblade, and that character is also more powerful than the Breton was.

    Bretons suck. They need a buff to bring them up to the same level as the Altmers and Dunmers. I've gotten to where I'll only use Bretons as healers, and then only because I like their looks.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    SydneyGrey wrote: »
    I did a race change on a magicka nightblade from Breton to High Elf, so his build was identical except for the race change. The High Elf version was WAY more powerful. I also have a Dark Elf magicka nighblade, and that character is also more powerful than the Breton was.

    Bretons suck. They need a buff to bring them up to the same level as the Altmers and Dunmers. I've gotten to where I'll only use Bretons as healers, and then only because I like their looks.

    You got any DPS parses from before and after your race change? I really can't imagine that 4% increased elemental damage is "WAY more powerful" material.
  • BigBadVolk
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    SydneyGrey wrote: »
    I did a race change on a magicka nightblade from Breton to High Elf, so his build was identical except for the race change. The High Elf version was WAY more powerful. I also have a Dark Elf magicka nighblade, and that character is also more powerful than the Breton was.

    Bretons suck. They need a buff to bring them up to the same level as the Altmers and Dunmers. I've gotten to where I'll only use Bretons as healers, and then only because I like their looks.

    You got any DPS parses from before and after your race change? I really can't imagine that 4% increased elemental damage is "WAY more powerful" material.

    I'd say its mostly 1 or 2k at least thats how much I gained when I race changed mine to dark elf from breton
    "The ass is similar to the opinion: Everyone has it, but no one cares about the others!"
    I'm 120 years old
  • jlmurra2
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    I think simple increases would improve Bretons, and keep them as they are supposed to be according to lore, and previous Elder Scrolls games. Something like increasing the magicka cost reduction to 5%, and spell resist closer to six thousand.

    The 10% bonus to magicka already makes them very competitive with Altmer, and Dunmer when not using elemental magicka.
  • NyassaV
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    The amount of spell resist is stupidly high. And yeah cost reduction needs a buff.

    To put it in perspective Breton very literally has about 50% more "fire" resistance than Dunmer.
    Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand Overlord
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  • WrathOfInnos
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    NyassaV wrote: »
    The amount of spell resist is stupidly high. And yeah cost reduction needs a buff.

    To put it in perspective Breton very literally has about 50% more "fire" resistance than Dunmer.

    The Breton resistance value is higher and it applies to more damage types, but the Dunmer passive also grants immunity to the Burning status effect and gives 3% Max Magicka in the same passive. I’d say these Dunmer and Breton defensive passives are about equal in strength.

    That being said, I wouldn’t be opposed to the Dunmer flame resist going up to around 3-4k, if Breton gets the increase I suggested. This would help solidify each race’s specialty: Breton gets great sustain and spell resistance, Altmer gets highest damage and good sustain but no resistance, Dunmer gets highest fire damage and some resistance but no sustain. I would also support the Altmer 4% damage bonus and the Dunmer 2% damage bonus extending to Magic damage as well as other elements.
  • aeowulf
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    How's about breton get their relatively minor sustain removed? that will bring their sustin in line with nords & imperials.

    you can't just balance one race against the best and ignore the worst alternatives. you gotta look at the whole picture.

    Edited by aeowulf on October 10, 2018 11:56AM
  • HappyLittleTree
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    Donny_Vito wrote: »
    When was the last time ESO updated a races passives?

    08.02.2016
    Thuu chakkuth lod Hajhiit c’oo? Hajhiit gortsuquth gorihuth thuu gooluthduj thdeitoluu!

    XBox-EU
  • GreenhaloX
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    Could always use a buff, but it's still fine. My go-to for Magsorc.. that and the High Elf.
  • code65536
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    Heavy armor builds get a little more out of this one, and can see up to 12% reduced damage from spells.
    This doesn't make any sense. Heavy armor adds resistance of its own because it's heavy, but that doesn't amplify any other source of resistance. You get the same mitigation from the Breton passive whether you are wearing light, medium, heavy, or running around in your birthday suit.
    3% Spell Cost Reduction
    Why not compare it with the Altmer passive? For someone with a base regen of 1K, Altmer adds 100 regen, which is only 50 mag/s. It seems that ZOS probably had Altmer in mind when balancing. Both get a small sustain bonus that's roughly in the same ballpark. Altmer gets damage, Breton gets defense.


    My main is a Breton, so I very much have a personal interest in seeing Breton buffed, but I think the race is fine as it is. In particular, I think the spell resist passive is pretty strong and underrated. It's not that much of a DPS loss from Dunmer (my "second main" is an identically-speced and geared Dunmer), and I do feel slightly sturdier in trials (where there is so much spell damage). And it looks so much better than a Dunmer. :heart:
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  • Emma_Overload
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    Bretons should get a buff to Magic Damage, like 7% or something.
    #CAREBEARMASTERRACE
  • DeadlyRecluse
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    My main has been a breton since launch, and I love her--while a little buff to our passives wouldn't hurt, I don't actually think they are in a bad place.
    Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub
  • code65536
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    Bretons should get a buff to Magic Damage, like 7% or something.

    People have been suggesting a Magic Damage passive for Bretons for as long as I've been playing. And as someone who mains a Breton magblade, this would be really nice. But also unfair, unless the spell resistance passive gets a little nerf.
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  • DeadlyRecluse
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    code65536 wrote: »
    Bretons should get a buff to Magic Damage, like 7% or something.

    People have been suggesting a Magic Damage passive for Bretons for as long as I've been playing. And as someone who mains a Breton magblade, this would be really nice. But also unfair, unless the spell resistance passive gets a little nerf.

    Magic damage passive would be amazing, especially for NBs and Templars.

    19k dark flare in PvP last night...how big of a % on that do I need XD. And let's not even think about spectral bow ganks...
    Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub
  • FakeFox
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    In my opinion Breton is still the strongest race for a healer with every passive being actually useful and synergizing perfectly with vampirism.
    EU/PC (GER) - Healermain since 2014 - 50305 Achievement Points - Youtube (PvE Healing Guides, Builds & Gameplay)
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