Why are MagDKs able to shut down a magblade completely?

jcm2606 · October 2018

To be fair, I don't know why Cripple is reflectable, as I don't believe it is a projectile. At least I've never noticed it.

Swallow Soul, on the other hand, is a projectile. Try it out yourself against a target dummy. When you use it, an effect flies from you to your target, then another effect flies back towards you. Ergo, projectile. The last thing wings needs is another special unreflectable projectile, so, no. I don't support it.

therift · October 2018

Ozazz wrote: »

therift wrote: »

If you are playing what is widely considered the strongest class variant in the game, and are 'completely shut down' by what many consider a middle-of-the-road class variant... you have effectively demonstrated that there is much room for improvement in your game skills.

Rather than blaming balance, you should seek advice. In the PvP section of the Forums.

Good luck to you

wings are not balanced 100% get your bias out here

Please explain your position. As far as I am concerned, DK wings are fine.

DK is the only class I do not play. Perhaps I can help you with some advice.

Sweetare · October 2018

And that's pretty much what balance is about OP. You are not supposed to be able to kill everyone and every build. That magDK setup is exactly the counterplay of yours. When you find such a player you cloak and look for another victim.

This coming from someone with 6 dedicated PvP toons (magDK, magBlade, stamBlade, stamWarden, magWarden, bleedSorc) every single one of them has a counter that annihilates me, when I find such an enemy I usually CC and run away or try to outsmart them.

People should really stop crying for nerfs, learn to play their class, adapt to changes and accept that you aint gonna win each fight, and there is a build that WILL crush you, and you WILL have to fight it eventually.

Malthorne · October 2018

People should be able to safely potato anyone and everyone to death from range with no risk to themselves.

ak_pvp · October 2018

I'll start of by saying I don't like it. Wings is too strong vs some specs and useless vs others. It's an unfun rock paper scissors design.
However if you nerf wings or add any (more) exemptions to it, then it just gets weaker, and dk is already a heavily nerfed class.

Don't claim like its a dk exclusive thing. Nbs can stop all dk dots, be invisible and force miss skills many skills with cloak. Breaking it beans either sacrificing/running something weaker to run a counter. The same way nbs have to.

Jeremy · October 2018

THE_BIG_BOSS wrote: »

So how can it be okay that a magdk is able to shut down a magblade completely by using wings?

you CANT attack them and if you do it gets reflected hurting YOURSELF while they are putting you on the defense like that they are still able to dish out HUGE dps while you cant do ANYTHING. how is that BALANCED?

Cripple a projectile? Swallow Soul a projectile??? Seriously?

Dragon Knights are by far the strongest class I've gone up against in PvP. Unless you gear almost exclusively for defense they will slaughter you.

I don't believe the solution is to nerf them. But they should certainly give players stronger defensive options to deal with them. I would recommend anyone who prioritizes PvP on this game to roll as a Dragon Knight.

Ravereth · October 2018

Lylith · October 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

Someone died in pvp! Nerf everything until it doesnt happen anymore!

PVP Nerfs in a nutshell:

If it can kill me, nerf it.
If I can't kill it, nerf it.

We've got a real winner here! "Trying to kill it with reflectable skills kills me, so nerf it!"

eta: if i can't kill it fast enough, nerf it. (shield nerf, speed nerf, warden nerf, etc etc)

RinaldoGandolphi · October 2018

Complaing about MagDK at this point is crazy.

Reflect is all they really have now, other classes can do what they do better.

All MagDK has is to be tanky and try and wear targets down with dots. We don’t even have an execute and are forced to use ults to even have a chance of killing anyone.

MagDK power lash has been gutted and they nerfed us again on the PTS with Chains that doesn’t even work half the time.

Most MagDK don’t even have the bar space for a Major Expedition buff, hence why they build so tanky nowadays. The only things they can do is build tanky and use lots of dots to wear someone down and hopefully ult them.

A Magblade can disengage a fight at anytime, a DK is stuck fighting with very little mobility.

Nightblade is the easiest class in the game to play by a large margin. Just teleport to
Your shade and cloak when things are not going your way. How much easier does it get?

How bout try playing a non-vamp MagDK open world solo and comeback here and tell us how great it is. Most folks couldn’t handle it because it’s not easy, the margin for error is very small and mistakes are costly, and you can,tjust run away when your losing or being zerged either.

Nightblades have 100% control over who and when they attack and can retreat at will....must be nice....

Nyladreas · October 2018

I guess @THE_BIG_BOSS wasn't so big after all.

Slot Concealed Weapon. It does more damage and cannot be reflected. Slot something that will control the DK through non-direct hits. They're actually pretty easy to get, as long as you're smart about it.

Another spells to help you:
Mass Hysteria/Manifestation of Terror
Twisting Path(Cause Refreshing is getting *** over next patch)
Lotus fan
Soul Harvest/Soul Tether
Sap Essence (Heals you btw)
Volcanic Rune (This is the most underrated CC in the game for mag if you pull it off correctly)

DKs are an average class now. Magblade is one of the best.

Strider__Roshin · October 2018

Because wings is OP. Now that shields are getting balanced it would be a good idea to give wings and cloak a look.

Nyladreas · October 2018

Daus wrote: »

Because wings is OP. Now that shields are getting balanced it would be a good idea to give wings and cloak a look.

I don't think cloak needs any adjustment, Daus. I don't use cloak either, and when I did it honestly felt very weak.I mean now with the insane movement speed it's more annoying/more reliable but I'd wait till the last week of PTS, to see how every other contributing factor is. Everyone in current meta runs AoEs anyway, so cloak is pretty meh.

Wings are fine too in my opinion. Perhaps projectile count nerf is in order but that's debateable. Mag shields need to get boosted by bastion star up to 65-70% health respectively. And we're good.

Can't believe ZOS hasn't used the Bastion CP star like that yet. The crit on shields is already a massive nerf, forcing a large CP investment would help balance other things out. PvE players would feel safer, PvP players would have to make tactical choices.

Gaeliator · October 2018

need different skills and gears to be rdy for every single occasion in pvp. yes sometimes there is little time for one to switch even with the addon but hey better than nothing yes?

Morgul667 · October 2018

I wouldnt support any nerf that makes nightblade even stronger

Maryal · October 2018

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Complaing about MagDK at this point is crazy.

Reflect is all they really have now, other classes can do what they do better.

All MagDK has is to be tanky and try and wear targets down with dots. We don’t even have an execute and are forced to use ults to even have a chance of killing anyone.

MagDK power lash has been gutted and they nerfed us again on the PTS with Chains that doesn’t even work half the time.

Most MagDK don’t even have the bar space for a Major Expedition buff, hence why they build so tanky nowadays. The only things they can do is build tanky and use lots of dots to wear someone down and hopefully ult them.

A Magblade can disengage a fight at anytime, a DK is stuck fighting with very little mobility.

Nightblade is the easiest class in the game to play by a large margin. Just teleport to
Your shade and cloak when things are not going your way. How much easier does it get?

How bout try playing a non-vamp MagDK open world solo and comeback here and tell us how great it is. Most folks couldn’t handle it because it’s not easy, the margin for error is very small and mistakes are costly, and you can,tjust run away when your losing or being zerged either.

Nightblades have 100% control over who and when they attack and can retreat at will....must be nice....

Funny, when I'm in Cyrodiil and get the daily quest to 'kill 20 nightblades' that 'NB kill counter' fills up pretty darn fast (and I mean really fast).

therift · October 2018

Maryal wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Complaing about MagDK at this point is crazy.

Reflect is all they really have now, other classes can do what they do better.

All MagDK has is to be tanky and try and wear targets down with dots. We don’t even have an execute and are forced to use ults to even have a chance of killing anyone.

MagDK power lash has been gutted and they nerfed us again on the PTS with Chains that doesn’t even work half the time.

Most MagDK don’t even have the bar space for a Major Expedition buff, hence why they build so tanky nowadays. The only things they can do is build tanky and use lots of dots to wear someone down and hopefully ult them.

A Magblade can disengage a fight at anytime, a DK is stuck fighting with very little mobility.

Nightblade is the easiest class in the game to play by a large margin. Just teleport to
Your shade and cloak when things are not going your way. How much easier does it get?

How bout try playing a non-vamp MagDK open world solo and comeback here and tell us how great it is. Most folks couldn’t handle it because it’s not easy, the margin for error is very small and mistakes are costly, and you can,tjust run away when your losing or being zerged either.

Nightblades have 100% control over who and when they attack and can retreat at will....must be nice....

Funny, when I'm in Cyrodiil and get the daily quest to 'kill 20 nightblades' that 'NB kill counter' fills up pretty darn fast (and I mean really fast).

Lol. Sometimes it's a blur.

Nightblades are everywhere. Zerging keeps, camping resources, hiding in the shrubbery. Thank Stendarr 85% of them are little more than AP delivery service

Emma_Overload · October 2018

Ozazz wrote: »

THE_BIG_BOSS wrote: »

So how can it be okay that a magdk is able to shut down a magblade completely by using wings?

you CANT attack them and if you do it gets reflected hurting YOURSELF while they are putting you on the defense like that they are still able to dish out HUGE dps while you cant do ANYTHING. how is that BALANCED?

Cripple a projectile? Swallow Soul a projectile??? Seriously?

try fighting one on as a sorc as well! mgk dks counter two classes directly pretty much guaranteeing them a win in every fight.
im glad someone else is fair minded

Thank you for this comment. I'm reading this thread and thinking "Magblades have it bad? What about Sorcs? At least blades can poof into thin air when they see a DK!"

therift · October 2018

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Ozazz wrote: »

THE_BIG_BOSS wrote: »

So how can it be okay that a magdk is able to shut down a magblade completely by using wings?

you CANT attack them and if you do it gets reflected hurting YOURSELF while they are putting you on the defense like that they are still able to dish out HUGE dps while you cant do ANYTHING. how is that BALANCED?

Cripple a projectile? Swallow Soul a projectile??? Seriously?

try fighting one on as a sorc as well! mgk dks counter two classes directly pretty much guaranteeing them a win in every fight.
im glad someone else is fair minded

Thank you for this comment. I'm reading this thread and thinking "Magblades have it bad? What about Sorcs? At least blades can poof into thin air when they see a DK!"

And sorcs can streak. I do that myself when I see DK wings. For me, it's better to avoid that fight since my sorc typically slots skills that a DK can reflect. Just sayin'.

Jamdarius · October 2018

Maryal wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Complaing about MagDK at this point is crazy.
Reflect is all they really have now, other classes can do what they do better.

All MagDK has is to be tanky and try and wear targets down with dots. We don’t even have an execute and are forced to use ults to even have a chance of killing anyone.

MagDK power lash has been gutted and they nerfed us again on the PTS with Chains that doesn’t even work half the time.

Most MagDK don’t even have the bar space for a Major Expedition buff, hence why they build so tanky nowadays. The only things they can do is build tanky and use lots of dots to wear someone down and hopefully ult them.

A Magblade can disengage a fight at anytime, a DK is stuck fighting with very little mobility.

Nightblade is the easiest class in the game to play by a large margin. Just teleport to
Your shade and cloak when things are not going your way. How much easier does it get?

How bout try playing a non-vamp MagDK open world solo and comeback here and tell us how great it is. Most folks couldn’t handle it because it’s not easy, the margin for error is very small and mistakes are costly, and you can,tjust run away when your losing or being zerged either.

Nightblades have 100% control over who and when they attack and can retreat at will....must be nice....

Funny, when I'm in Cyrodiil and get the daily quest to 'kill 20 nightblades' that 'NB kill counter' fills up pretty darn fast (and I mean really fast).

Thats because most players play NB as it is 1 of the most OP classes in game... As somebody who plays magDK for 3 years I can tell you we need more buffs than nerfs. Our sustain gonna be even more wrecked in next patch due to power lash costing magicka. Our primary way of dealing damage (DoT) is very easy to purge ( netch, templar, alliance purge) or to avoid (cloak). We are also melee class meaning we need to be close to do anything and maybe my build is wrong but I got no slot free for the chains as they almost never work anyways. Also with all the CC immunity and super sonic speed snares we have in arsenal have no effect... 50% of the time NB or sorc can safely run away when they see they cannot kill me 1 vs 1. Also our primary ulti for the PvP is way 2 easy to avoid with current speed of players - you can just move out of area. My advice for everyone complaining about any class is to make it play with it and see its weak points from their own perspective.

eso_lags · October 2018

THE_BIG_BOSS wrote: »

So how can it be okay that a magdk is able to shut down a magblade completely by using wings?

you CANT attack them and if you do it gets reflected hurting YOURSELF while they are putting you on the defense like that they are still able to dish out HUGE dps while you cant do ANYTHING. how is that BALANCED?

Cripple a projectile? Swallow Soul a projectile??? Seriously?

Seems like you're too used of hitting medium armor builds with 15k bows. Magblade has, literally, the strongest damage skill in the game. In fact, its stronger than almost all ultimates in game and i have no idea why its in game the way that it is.

Light attack 5 times and get a bow proc that tool tips for 25k+.. While everything else that the class offers is hurting you as well.. Seems legit. Regardless without the bow a magblade is not so good so i guess theres no solution.

But to you're issue, every class has a counter in the game. Every build. And every class can counter something else. Except stam sorc, we counter nothing since we use mainly weapon skills to attack that everyone else could use.

A mag dk with wings is a counter to you but you can still win if you play your class good. You can light attack the wings off and then bow. You can keep a skill that cannot be reflected.. Pretty sure swallow soul cant be reflected. Surprise attack, impale. Theres things you can do to counter the wings but im guessing you might just be used to mopping people in that cant counter the spectral bow.

Knootewoot · October 2018

So, i have difficulties trying to defeat a stamsorc because i wear light armor and they just wreck me with their stamina skills.

Shall i make a nerfSorc thread, or nerf 2-handed weapon thread. Hmm can't decide

Ragnarock41 · October 2018

Jeremy wrote: »

THE_BIG_BOSS wrote: »

So how can it be okay that a magdk is able to shut down a magblade completely by using wings?

you CANT attack them and if you do it gets reflected hurting YOURSELF while they are putting you on the defense like that they are still able to dish out HUGE dps while you cant do ANYTHING. how is that BALANCED?

Cripple a projectile? Swallow Soul a projectile??? Seriously?

Dragon Knights are by far the strongest class I've gone up against in PvP. Unless you gear almost exclusively for defense they will slaughter you.

I don't believe the solution is to nerf them. But they should certainly give players stronger defensive options to deal with them. I would recommend anyone who prioritizes PvP on this game to roll as a Dragon Knight.

Dragonknights only overperform when it comes to tanking aspect(Its the main tanking class after all) and shutting down projectile builds(mainly magDks are good at this, but even then a magblade can always slot force pulse or melee abilities. Counterplay exists.)

Yes, dragonknights are not weak wimps, but they are definitely not the strongest, stamDk is not even close since morrowind nerfs, and magDk was considered a meme class not a long while ago.

I don't understand posts like these. Do you realize how friggen strong wardens and nightblades are right now?

BigBragg · October 2018

therift wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Complaing about MagDK at this point is crazy.

Reflect is all they really have now, other classes can do what they do better.

All MagDK has is to be tanky and try and wear targets down with dots. We don’t even have an execute and are forced to use ults to even have a chance of killing anyone.

MagDK power lash has been gutted and they nerfed us again on the PTS with Chains that doesn’t even work half the time.

Most MagDK don’t even have the bar space for a Major Expedition buff, hence why they build so tanky nowadays. The only things they can do is build tanky and use lots of dots to wear someone down and hopefully ult them.

A Magblade can disengage a fight at anytime, a DK is stuck fighting with very little mobility.

Nightblade is the easiest class in the game to play by a large margin. Just teleport to
Your shade and cloak when things are not going your way. How much easier does it get?

How bout try playing a non-vamp MagDK open world solo and comeback here and tell us how great it is. Most folks couldn’t handle it because it’s not easy, the margin for error is very small and mistakes are costly, and you can,tjust run away when your losing or being zerged either.

Nightblades have 100% control over who and when they attack and can retreat at will....must be nice....

Funny, when I'm in Cyrodiil and get the daily quest to 'kill 20 nightblades' that 'NB kill counter' fills up pretty darn fast (and I mean really fast).

Lol. Sometimes it's a blur.

Nightblades are everywhere. Zerging keeps, camping resources, hiding in the shrubbery. Thank Stendarr 85% of them are little more than AP delivery service

Just because Nightblades are good and there are a lot of them, doesn't mean a lot of them are good.

Maryal · October 2018

Jamdarius wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Complaing about MagDK at this point is crazy.
Reflect is all they really have now, other classes can do what they do better.

All MagDK has is to be tanky and try and wear targets down with dots. We don’t even have an execute and are forced to use ults to even have a chance of killing anyone.

MagDK power lash has been gutted and they nerfed us again on the PTS with Chains that doesn’t even work half the time.

Most MagDK don’t even have the bar space for a Major Expedition buff, hence why they build so tanky nowadays. The only things they can do is build tanky and use lots of dots to wear someone down and hopefully ult them.

A Magblade can disengage a fight at anytime, a DK is stuck fighting with very little mobility.

Nightblade is the easiest class in the game to play by a large margin. Just teleport to
Your shade and cloak when things are not going your way. How much easier does it get?

How bout try playing a non-vamp MagDK open world solo and comeback here and tell us how great it is. Most folks couldn’t handle it because it’s not easy, the margin for error is very small and mistakes are costly, and you can,tjust run away when your losing or being zerged either.

Nightblades have 100% control over who and when they attack and can retreat at will....must be nice....

Funny, when I'm in Cyrodiil and get the daily quest to 'kill 20 nightblades' that 'NB kill counter' fills up pretty darn fast (and I mean really fast).

Thats because most players play NB as it is 1 of the most OP classes in game... As somebody who plays magDK for 3 years I can tell you we need more buffs than nerfs. Our sustain gonna be even more wrecked in next patch due to power lash costing magicka. Our primary way of dealing damage (DoT) is very easy to purge ( netch, templar, alliance purge) or to avoid (cloak). We are also melee class meaning we need to be close to do anything and maybe my build is wrong but I got no slot free for the chains as they almost never work anyways. Also with all the CC immunity and super sonic speed snares we have in arsenal have no effect... 50% of the time NB or sorc can safely run away when they see they cannot kill me 1 vs 1. Also our primary ulti for the PvP is way 2 easy to avoid with current speed of players - you can just move out of area. My advice for everyone complaining about any class is to make it play with it and see its weak points from their own perspective.

My comment replied to the following comments made by @RinaldoGandolphi :
1.) Nightblade is the easiest class in the game to play by a large margin. Just teleport to
Your shade and cloak when things are not going your way. How much easier does it get? and
2.) Nightblades have 100% control over who and when they attack and can retreat at will....must be nice.

As you can see, my comment contradicted the comments made above by pointing out a NBs defense is not 'OP' ... they are easy to kill. My comment had nothing to do with DKs and, given the context of what I said, it can hardly be construed as a complaint about the class I've played for over 3 years now (NB). I'm sorry that you feel the way you do about your class, but your response is outside the purview of my comment.

BigBadVolk · October 2018

Koolio wrote: »

THE_BIG_BOSS wrote: »

So how can it be okay that a magdk is able to shut down a magblade completely by using wings?

you CANT attack them and if you do it gets reflected hurting YOURSELF while they are putting you on the defense like that they are still able to dish out HUGE dps while you cant do ANYTHING. how is that BALANCED?

Cripple a projectile? Swallow Soul a projectile??? Seriously?

Concealed weapon
Twisting Path
Lotus fan
Soul Harvest
Dw Heavy attack’s
Fear

Just about half the actual damage moves of a nightblades kit aren’t reflective. You choose to run the stronger setup against every other class and run into your weaknesses. I build for melee and don’t have trouble with most MDK.

It your own fault.

I'd add if you got ranged just slot FP if people cant deal with Wings

JumpmanLane · October 2018

ezio45 wrote: »

same reason stam dk can shut down magsorc completely, they do well in heavy.

burst doesnt do anything if they were you out of resources and pertify dot you to death......

not a big fan of dk's these days.... getting up there with snipe spam builds on my hate list

It’s builds not classes. Build first to survive, then sustain, then damage. If you’re running out of sustain it’s your build. All the damage in the world is nothing if you can’t break free and dodge roll out of fossilize. There’s a cool down. Geeze. No one should be able to Fossilize ANYBODY to death...or even fossilize/ talons anyone to death. It’s your build...or your play style. MagDk’s don’t even have an execute. Lol.

O_LYKOS · October 2018

Learn your class. Adapt and overcome.

Brrrofski · October 2018

I do find it kinda stupid that crushing shock isn't reflectable but swallow soul is.

Swallow Soul should literally be you siphoning life from someone.

Emmagoldman · October 2018

some classes, because of there abilities, are counters to others. magdk is really strong against magsorc and magnb. The ability to reflect and root and cc makes the class really strong.

For stamblade, sorc is strong. you can sit in mines and use streak to uncover stealth.
It doesnt mean nerf everything

RinaldoGandolphi · October 2018

Swallow Soul and morphs not being reflectablr would be broken OP considering the healing attached to it.

The last thing this game needs is another unreflectable ranged skill which will be used to Zerg people down.

Magblades can slot Force Shock if they want unreflectable ranged attack it does more damage and ignores 10% of spell resist in return for not healing which is actually balanced.