I was actually shocked by one of the Morrowind quests I recently finished that uses the B**** word. I think it was the Sun-In-Shadows quest where she has you deliver the marshmallows to the magister. TBH, I would never have expected to hear this from an NPC, but I recognize that PC culture is inconsistent and everyone draws the line in a different place.

To the OP, was what your guild mate said worse than the B-word?

Is what the offender said something that you have heard before in popular culture, in movies or shows? Perhaps something that might have been said in Game of Thrones?

Or was it worse than that?

You don't have to tell us what it was, but its worth thinking about how offensive it was, put in the context of today's world.

On one hand the media/hollywood had gotten less sensitive and they incorporate themes/narratives that would have been unheard of 20 years ago, thus exposing people to more hateful ideas/content. On the other hand, people are now triggered by things that wouldn't have moved the needle back then. There is a strange dichotomy; hollywood/entertainment has embraced a much more "mature" content level, yet society seems to be hyper sensitive of late.

.02

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Words cannot constitute sexual harassment if they aren't directed at someone. They can be hateful though.

I agree with ZOS letting guilds police their own ranks to an extent (there are sone guilds out there designed around "free speech").

It's kind of like real life in that regard. Organizations police their own members, unless the actions constitute a crime.

Isn't the issue here (at least base on the OP) - that

A/. The words in question were aimed at a particular person (i.e. their note was edited to say something the OP thinks is offensive)

and that

B/. ZOS have not provisioned the necessary tools so that the GMs of this guild can police their own guild members as they would wish.

Essentially it is a request for a feature - since the OP has tactfully chosen not to paste the exact text I don't think we can really judge if it meets our individual standards of offensive but clearly it met those of their guild and it is not unreasonable for them to request the details. If the standards they are applying within their guild are judged too prissy by the other guild memebers then they will presumably leave.

You'd hate my guild lol

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

Its a bit sad how many of you are asking ZoS to turn into the thought police and you know absolutely 0 details about what was even said. Youre just screaming for a ban based on the word of OP alone in a matter that should be policed within guilds.

I think a major point of OP's post is to point out that this can't be policed within guilds due to the interface not allowing the GM to see who edited the note in the first place.

It's your own issue that you didn't apply basic access restriction rules to your guild MOTD.

Seeking out a person (no matter in which way) who did it to punish him\her is way more offensive than some "sexual harassment" on the internet.

NoTimeToWait wrote: »

It's your own issue that you didn't apply basic access restriction rules to your guild MOTD.

Seeking out a person (no matter in which way) who did it to punish him\her is way more offensive than some "sexual harassment" on the internet.

I think there are some bugs with that.

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

Its a bit sad how many of you are asking ZoS to turn into the thought police and you know absolutely 0 details about what was even said. Youre just screaming for a ban based on the word of OP alone in a matter that should be policed within guilds.

Well, ZOS isnt the thought police. Because this isnt a "thought", its something someone typed in a guild note in ZOS' game. On the other hand, ZOS doesn't monitor things like chat and guild notes, though they will presumably check the logs when someone gets reported. I dont think they bother if no one reports an incident. In this case, the incident was reported but there's no way to report the player.

So I'm not surprised that ZOS isnt willing to "discuss disciplinary action" with the guild. They generally dont do that.

They seem to be treating this in much the same way as stealing from a guild bank, i.e. "Your guild officers set the permissions, what your guildmates do with that is not our problem." Which is a problem when the incident, sexual harassment, isnt permitted under the TOS, and the nature of guild notes makes in impossible for players to report a harasser.


So what can ZOS do?

ZOS can and should include a history of who edited guild notes in the guild tools. They do this history with other parts of the guild, and it allows tracking and accountability. If someone is using guild notes to harass another player, this allows them to be reported.

ZOS can and should include a toggle allowing players to only change their own notes, providing even greater protection against harassment while keeping the functionality of guild notes.

None of that will fix the current situation faced by the guild, but it will address this situation going forward.

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

Its easy to see who edit motd or anything else within guild. Example:

Perhaps you could show us the bit which lists who edits player notes - which is what the OP referred to?

lordrichter wrote: »

Bad thing was said. Important part is that bad thing was removed.

Unless something seriously criminal happened (threat to life, for example), this sounds like it is resolved. At least, the important part is resolved. What was said has been removed.

As an impartial observer in this, I would suggest letting it go. I don't see a reason to make some announcement to the guild, either. No good will come from that, nor will a witch hunt to find out who did it.

As for ZOS, I doubt they keep detailed logs that would easily determine who updated the roster note. It would probably take a considerable amount of time and effort. Maybe they could do it if there was a serious threat to another player and they had to initiate legal action, but this is a social behavior matter. A matter where the important part has already been resolved.

This might not be the most popular opinion, but I think proceeding with the hunt and punishment of the perp will just be worse, all around.

The important part is that the person who did it is removed so that people can feel comfortable in their own guild again, and that they don't have to spend every god damn guild event or group outting wondering if they are helping to enrich someone who is harassing them behind their back like a coward.

Social interactions work better when the people involved in them trust one another. That trust is forever violated if the offender isn't ousted.

I'm so tired of people trying to tell others how they ought to feel, and bending over backwards to protect the feelings of people who are harass others while telling people who are harassed to get over it.

Being removed from a guild of people who don't like you and who you chose to harass isn't some horrific punishment.

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

... The response also said that if I had an account name, they would investigate. The problem, as I explained to them, is that they are the only ones who can find out the at name, as there are no records of note changes available to players. I gave as much information as we could provide. It is now incumbent upon them to investigate, as they have proof of an offense, and to take action to prevent further harassment, which we would certainly do ourselves if only we could.
...

So if you knew who it was and were able to take action against, ZOS would be 'willing to investigate'
but since you are unable to identify who it was, zos is unwilling to investigate

Yeah, there is definitely a problem here -- either support does not comprehend the core of the issue, or support simply does not care that game systems can be exploited to anonymously harass others

Or its an outlier issue that CS has not come upon before so they dont have strict guidelines on how to deal with it. How about instead of applying malice or carelessness on the part of someone you dont know and cant speak for. Maybe put yourself in their shoes. Consider why from their perspective they would be reluctant to get involved.

CS should definitely be able to step in for this and resolve the issue. But Im convinced that this is something that was not apart of their training and overall has probably not been encountered before by the CS Associate or by their Team/Leadership before. The best thing we can do is push this up with Gina or Jessica as they will have a better chance of addressing this.

So it is your position that support does not comprehend the core of the issue
as was stated as a possibility in my comment

Duly noted

Samadhi wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

... The response also said that if I had an account name, they would investigate. The problem, as I explained to them, is that they are the only ones who can find out the at name, as there are no records of note changes available to players. I gave as much information as we could provide. It is now incumbent upon them to investigate, as they have proof of an offense, and to take action to prevent further harassment, which we would certainly do ourselves if only we could.
...

So if you knew who it was and were able to take action against, ZOS would be 'willing to investigate'
but since you are unable to identify who it was, zos is unwilling to investigate

Yeah, there is definitely a problem here -- either support does not comprehend the core of the issue, or support simply does not care that game systems can be exploited to anonymously harass others

Or its an outlier issue that CS has not come upon before so they dont have strict guidelines on how to deal with it. How about instead of applying malice or carelessness on the part of someone you dont know and cant speak for. Maybe put yourself in their shoes. Consider why from their perspective they would be reluctant to get involved.

CS should definitely be able to step in for this and resolve the issue. But Im convinced that this is something that was not apart of their training and overall has probably not been encountered before by the CS Associate or by their Team/Leadership before. The best thing we can do is push this up with Gina or Jessica as they will have a better chance of addressing this.

So it is your position that support does not comprehend the core of the issue
as was stated as a possibility in my comment

Duly noted

No...the point is that Support may not have encountered someone using Guild Notes to harass someone before. Likely, they dont have a ZOS-approved response for this situation.

If this hasn't happened before (first time I've ever heard of someone doing it) then Support doesn't have set steps to respond. Asking Support to take action that doesn't follow what they are allowed to is like asking a bureaucrat not to CYA. Even if they want to help you, they won't be allowed to unless someone okays that response to your situation.

The rarer the situation, the less likely Support is to have a canned response, and the more likely it is that Support has to get approval from higher up before doing anything.

So you can:
Tell Support they didnt address the problem

Reiterate the problem

Point to the TOS, because that's why they need to fix the problem

Ask Support to escalate the problem to whoever can actually fix the problem or okay a fix for the problem - because your average Support team member cannot improvise to fix an unusual situation.

Accept that Support will almost certainly not ever discuss disciplinary action with you


Edited to add: Basically, you arent just asking ZOS to fix your situation. Very likely, you are asking ZOS to look at a situation they havent encountered yet for which they need to create a precedent for how they respond. That's going to create a lot of CYA from Support until they can get the higher-ups to give them a policy direction.

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Why doesn’t your GM send out a guild mail to everyone, explaining what happened, how it was inappropriate, and maybe the troll will out themselves.

My thoughts as well. There's a chance that someone else in the guild has heard/read this person do this before and you could get a name.

The guy's a coward.