Support refuses to investigate or remove sexual harasser from guild on grounds that it's "voluntary"

virtus753 · October 2018

The other day someone in my guild replaced an officer's note with a phrase that constitutes sexual harassment. Of course we immediately edited the perms so no one except officers has the ability to edit notes (because there is a glaring omission of an option to allow people to edit only their own notes, which would have precluded this mess), but the person apparently remains in guild because we cannot identify them.

Upon reporting this to Customer Support, with a screenshot of the note, I asked Support to let us know who had done this or (understanding their privacy concerns) that they simply remove the offender from guild, as we have no way of identifying the person unless they choose to confess, which has not happened. It's incredibly discomfiting to know we have this person in guild and cannot identify or remove them ourselves.

In their response, Support argued that they would never take any action on behalf of a guild master and that they would not investigate or remove anyone from guild because participating in guild is a "voluntary" activity and removing someone from guild would be "interfering." The response also said that if I had an account name, they would investigate. The problem, as I explained to them, is that they are the only ones who can find out the at name, as there are no records of note changes available to players. I gave as much information as we could provide. It is now incumbent upon them to investigate, as they have proof of an offense, and to take action to prevent further harassment, which we would certainly do ourselves if only we could.

I'm not sure how one justifies a complete lack of investigation and action here on the grounds that guild is a "voluntary" activity (isn't the whole game?) and that removing a sexual harasser from guild would be "interfering." It is hardly "interfering" with guild officers when those very officers have asked Support to find out what they cannot and to help them take action to protect their own safety. As for "voluntary," we have chosen to be in a guild, yes; we have most definitely not chosen to be sexually harassed. To hear Support suggest that they go hand in hand is sickening.

Incident #181006-000437

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GaryA @ZOS_BillE @ZOS_MichaelServotte

Samadhi · October 2018

virtus753 wrote: »

... The response also said that if I had an account name, they would investigate. The problem, as I explained to them, is that they are the only ones who can find out the at name, as there are no records of note changes available to players. I gave as much information as we could provide. It is now incumbent upon them to investigate, as they have proof of an offense, and to take action to prevent further harassment, which we would certainly do ourselves if only we could.
...

So if you knew who it was and were able to take action against, ZOS would be 'willing to investigate'
but since you are unable to identify who it was, zos is unwilling to investigate

Yeah, there is definitely a problem here -- either support does not comprehend the core of the issue, or support simply does not care that game systems can be exploited to anonymously harass others

Tandor · October 2018

To be fair, I can see both sides of the argument here.

Developers have neither the time nor the desire to get involved in guild management issues, nor should they, yet if an offensive comment had been made in public chat with a screenshot taken they may have dealt with it - depending on whether their definition of offensive contrary to the ToS matched that of the person reporting it, while because it happened in a private guild situation it's outside their remit yet the guild lacks the tools to deal with it themselves.

I'd ask the person who replied to your ticket to escalate it to a higher level. I'd ask politely, rather then telling them it's incumbent on them to do so.

TheShadowScout · October 2018

...anyone else thinking that a "guild activity" page showing who set the message just like who put someting into the bank or withdrew something and such would be a good idea?

People tend to be quite arsine sometimes when they can do it anonymously, not so much when they might have to face consequences...

As for the OP problem, can't really expect the powers that be go beyond the ToS and community standards.
Its a bit of circular argument... they need an report against an account to be allowed to investigate, but you would need them to investigate before you knew which account was behind it... and so nothing will happen.

All that can be done is to be vigilant in the future, and maybe add a daily message along the lines of "guildmates, do not be sexist jerks, we will not tolerate such in this guild" and hopw that whoever was the selfsame will mend their ways or at least hide them in the future.

Salvas_Aren · October 2018

I think this task is not as simple as one might think.

The support has to do a quite tough and rather unwanted job when it comes to the decision whether one's harassment justifies a ban or not.

Now they should decide whether some sort of harassment justifies guild excommunication, but not game ban?

Furthermore, remember the privacy concerns. They can't tell you who did it, but you expect them to kick ONE guildie, while the kick would end up in the guild records, visible to all officers?

Lieblingsjunge · October 2018

I got zone-chat bullied for like.. 1 year or so by the same 2-3 guys over, and over again. Reported, screenshots provided and ZoS-employees was contacted directly. (This was way above the usual salt/toxicity you can expect in an online game). Nothing happened.

Just suck it up and face it. ZoS ain't gonna do anything about anyone that breaks their ToS. Unless it's straight up cheating. So yeah, gl getting people chat-banned or something. It ain't gonna happen.

Korah_Eaglecry · October 2018

Samadhi wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

... The response also said that if I had an account name, they would investigate. The problem, as I explained to them, is that they are the only ones who can find out the at name, as there are no records of note changes available to players. I gave as much information as we could provide. It is now incumbent upon them to investigate, as they have proof of an offense, and to take action to prevent further harassment, which we would certainly do ourselves if only we could.
...

So if you knew who it was and were able to take action against, ZOS would be 'willing to investigate'
but since you are unable to identify who it was, zos is unwilling to investigate

Yeah, there is definitely a problem here -- either support does not comprehend the core of the issue, or support simply does not care that game systems can be exploited to anonymously harass others

Or its an outlier issue that CS has not come upon before so they dont have strict guidelines on how to deal with it. How about instead of applying malice or carelessness on the part of someone you dont know and cant speak for. Maybe put yourself in their shoes. Consider why from their perspective they would be reluctant to get involved.

CS should definitely be able to step in for this and resolve the issue. But Im convinced that this is something that was not apart of their training and overall has probably not been encountered before by the CS Associate or by their Team/Leadership before. The best thing we can do is push this up with Gina or Jessica as they will have a better chance of addressing this.

85flyingbrick_ESO · October 2018

Thanks for the mostly well thought out responses. As GM this is an odd pickle that we've not experienced before in any of my guilds. And i'm in some that allow open editing of notes while most do not. I find it unfortunate that a simple toggle as far as editing one's own note only is the simplest of solutions, yet has never been implemented.

Sheezabeast · October 2018

Why doesn’t your GM send out a guild mail to everyone, explaining what happened, how it was inappropriate, and maybe the troll will out themselves.

Tandor · October 2018

It could be argued that the simplest solution already exists - namely restricting editing Guild notes to Officers only, which you've now done. You've closed the stable door after the horse has bolted, however, and all one can do in that situation is learn from the experience, just like the GMs who give everyone permission to strip the guild bank and then cry "Theft" when someone does so.

ZeroXFF · October 2018

virtus753 wrote: »

The other day someone in my guild replaced an officer's note with a phrase that constitutes sexual harassment. Of course we immediately edited the perms so no one except officers has the ability to edit notes (because there is a glaring omission of an option to allow people to edit only their own notes, which would have precluded this mess), but the person apparently remains in guild because we cannot identify them.

Upon reporting this to Customer Support, with a screenshot of the note, I asked Support to let us know who had done this or (understanding their privacy concerns) that they simply remove the offender from guild, as we have no way of identifying the person unless they choose to confess, which has not happened. It's incredibly discomfiting to know we have this person in guild and cannot identify or remove them ourselves.

In their response, Support argued that they would never take any action on behalf of a guild master and that they would not investigate or remove anyone from guild because participating in guild is a "voluntary" activity and removing someone from guild would be "interfering." The response also said that if I had an account name, they would investigate. The problem, as I explained to them, is that they are the only ones who can find out the at name, as there are no records of note changes available to players. I gave as much information as we could provide. It is now incumbent upon them to investigate, as they have proof of an offense, and to take action to prevent further harassment, which we would certainly do ourselves if only we could.

I'm not sure how one justifies a complete lack of investigation and action here on the grounds that guild is a "voluntary" activity (isn't the whole game?) and that removing a sexual harasser from guild would be "interfering." It is hardly "interfering" with guild officers when those very officers have asked Support to find out what they cannot and to help them take action to protect their own safety. As for "voluntary," we have chosen to be in a guild, yes; we have most definitely not chosen to be sexually harassed. To hear Support suggest that they go hand in hand is sickening.

Incident #181006-000437

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GaryA @ZOS_BillE @ZOS_MichaelServotte

What exactly did they put in there that would make it qualify for "sexual harassment" rather than being a harmless prank? And did they do it repeatedly to actually qualify as "harassment" at all? Sorry, with the way certain totalitarian ideologues are shifting these definitions all the time, I don't actually know what you talk about when you say "sexual harassment". For all I know they could have just added a heart

to your note, and if that's the case, I wouldn't want to play a game where the devs start implementing disciplinary actions for things like this.

As for being able to edit own notes... Yes, that permission is definitely sorely missing.

85flyingbrick_ESO · October 2018

@Sheezabeast I've considered that. Everyone else is so pleasant i don't know if it's worth worrying everyone.

thegreat_one · October 2018

Well, now that the members of your guild are not able to change notes themselves, perhaps this will upset the innocent members and they will go on their own hunt to identify and expose the perp.

My experience is that ZoS will not do anything to anyone unless it involves them losing $$$.

Runs · October 2018

Guild chat(including guild notes/message of the day/guild information) should be solely governed by guild leader and guild officers.

Private chat/group chat/zone chat/ /s / /y.... those should be ZOS's domain.

BigBragg · October 2018

Sadly support seems to have no consistency when it comes to dealing with players and issues. Almost to the extent that they use a magic eight ball to make their decisions for them.

Perhaps this can be turned into a learning opportunity within your guild. Even if the offender doesn't come forward, maybe healthy discussion around the incident and why it was wrong and offensive can teach them not to behave so again. I know their parents should have done this prior to them getting online, and believing it will help may be altruistic. However, if people don't try to make the world better, it most certainly won't change.

Best of luck to y'all.

StormChaser3000 · October 2018

Can you be more specific about what they wrote? Share screenshot or smth.. Without that it is hard to say whether you are overreacting or something ridiculous was written for real.

85flyingbrick_ESO · October 2018

It was a slur that anyone would recognize as such. I'd rather not use such language here.

Imperial_Voice · October 2018

Id like to comment buuuut youd have to be a fool to comment here.

Elsonso · October 2018

Bad thing was said. Important part is that bad thing was removed.

Unless something seriously criminal happened (threat to life, for example), this sounds like it is resolved. At least, the important part is resolved. What was said has been removed.

As an impartial observer in this, I would suggest letting it go. I don't see a reason to make some announcement to the guild, either. No good will come from that, nor will a witch hunt to find out who did it.

As for ZOS, I doubt they keep detailed logs that would easily determine who updated the roster note. It would probably take a considerable amount of time and effort. Maybe they could do it if there was a serious threat to another player and they had to initiate legal action, but this is a social behavior matter. A matter where the important part has already been resolved.

This might not be the most popular opinion, but I think proceeding with the hunt and punishment of the perp will just be worse, all around.

Cously · October 2018

The kind of mentality that finds sexual harassment a fun thing to do will not change so the person will reveal themselves at some point.

BigBragg · October 2018

lordrichter wrote: »

Bad thing was said. Important part is that bad thing was removed.

That doesn't unsay it, or repair the feelings of any offended parties however. Just because something is gone, doesn't mean it can't still have lasting ramifications.

BigBragg · October 2018

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

Id like to comment buuuut youd have to be a fool to comment here.

And you you did anyway! LoL

Runs · October 2018

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

Id like to comment buuuut youd have to be a fool to comment here.

That is still a comment.

The problem with ZOS policing communications within a guild is it allows for trolls to go into and completely wreck guilds that are set up with ERP in mind or other "anything goes" guilds. Troll can ask for invitation and then just literally report everyone who takes part in the guilds intended function.

Elsonso · October 2018

BigBragg wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Bad thing was said. Important part is that bad thing was removed.

That doesn't unsay it, or repair the feelings of any offended parties however. Just because something is gone, doesn't mean it can't still have lasting ramifications.

The hunt for the perp will not fix it, either. The question is how much ill will and hatred is the guild willing to spread around in the search for this person? When they are found, that won't fix it either. Not the original words, or everything that was said and done trying to find them. At what point do you just say "enough is enough" and let it go?

Edit: My recommendation is to let it go. It may never happen again, and that would be a good thing.

Gilvoth · October 2018

from what you described happened (if true analysis) i do not see where zenimax did anything wrong.
infact they went out of their way to answer you back and attempt to help when they could have simply done nothing at all and it would have been justified.
however, this seems to be an ongoing event here on these forums, that for Years, where we see people make threads and comments that are based on false accusations and it is allowed.

NOTE: just for clarity:
i do not see where Zenimax did anything wrong, yet you are accusing them of having done something wrong, and making a public announcement of it as if you are somehow justified to accuse Zenimax of misconduct when no such misconduct occurred.

MLGProPlayer · October 2018

Words cannot constitute sexual harassment if they aren't directed at someone. They can be hateful though.

I agree with ZOS letting guilds police their own ranks to an extent (there are sone guilds out there designed around "free speech").

It's kind of like real life in that regard. Organizations police their own members, unless the actions constitute a crime.

Pheefs · October 2018

Changes to Notes could show up in the History, then they'd have nowhere to hide.

& yeah "edit own note" should really be an option already!
...as it is now, its either a free-for-all or we have to mail/message updates.

virtus753 wrote: »

we have chosen to be in a guild, yes; we have most definitely not chosen to be sexually harassed. To hear Support suggest that they go hand in hand is sickening.

you've closed the exploit the troll was using, and rather than focus on the offender you might switch your frame of mind to the offended... send out a Guild message like a mission statement, "trolls will be eviscerated, common courtesy is not optional" kind of thing.

& you could flip the script with a social event guaranteed to infuriate a harassing Troll, a cross-dressing gender swap costume party/contest maybe?

deleted008293 · October 2018

Tbh the above situation need some investigation. In my opinion there must be a tracker for who does edit those players notes. It is a privacy concern and it must be taken really seriously!

fixes:
+ allow players to edit their own notes as well
+ track / history system for people who edited their own or others guild notes

DoonerSeraph · October 2018

lordrichter wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Bad thing was said. Important part is that bad thing was removed.

That doesn't unsay it, or repair the feelings of any offended parties however. Just because something is gone, doesn't mean it can't still have lasting ramifications.

The hunt for the perp will not fix it, either. The question is how much ill will and hatred is the guild willing to spread around in the search for this person? When they are found, that won't fix it either. Not the original words, or everything that was said and done trying to find them. At what point do you just say "enough is enough" and let it go?

Edit: My recommendation is to let it go. It may never happen again, and that would be a good thing.

Yeah, I agree with that. Starting a witch hunt around who did it would open opportunities for innocent people to be suspected, and the longer this subject lingers in the guild, the longer it festers and hurts the trust relationship between guildmates. My suggestion is letting it go and observe if further harassment will take place. Since you have locked down notes (and I hope guild bank too), whoever wants to harass will have to show more of themselves. I understand how hard can it be to let go, but just pity the fool who thinks that kind of thing is fun and move one with the guildmates you trust and play together. There are dozens of good people, I suggest you spend your energies with them to make the guild a better place 😃

Jamdarius · October 2018

If I would care so much about every single troll in game I would play it (sadly) solo...

Guilds made with up to half thousand people are like small community or a village, you will always find somebody you disagree with or (to be straight) somebody that simple doesn't know how to act within a community (an censored). You cannot solve it if it was anonymous, do not expect Support to clean up your guild mess, I would never want something like that in any MMO where there is some kind of intervention of game support into guilds own way of doing things.

The lesson you and your guild should take from this happening is to not invite every single player into the guild you find, also not giving every single person in the guild rights to do everything from the start (like writing personal notes, changing guild info), keep it only to the trusted players.

And final note from me really do not feel sad because of such obvious troll, if it made u feel sad or even angry much do no show it on guild chat as you only will feed troll with that. Do not try to understand such noobs, waste of time.

Also if you could post somewhere outside of ESO forum (as they will probably delete it) and share link what was actually said it would give me final insight whether to agree with you (as in why Support did not help) or agree with support on their decision. Well if you are really so hurt by unknown to us words and desperate to have that person punished, support said that they will investigate it if you give them @ of the player so give them every single @ from your guild (evil smirk).

Anyways I cannot say any bad words about support, they helped me on more than 1 occassion, yes it took long time however we have quite a lot of players and they do not have endless supply of workers ready to reply every single player with every single request.

Also of course they will make priority for the tickets involving $, you would do the same because that is common sense.

StamWhipCultist · October 2018

How cant you see who edited guild note? Arent there addons to show all?