Zos is making the same mistakes with ESO as Bungie did with Destiny 2

Nyquil_zZ · October 2018

This probably won't ring a bell if you aren't familiar with the Destiny series. Destiny 2 crashed and burned because Bungie went overboard with nerfs in an attempt to cater to the casual audience. They didn’t consider that the casual audience will only play the game a short time before moving on, no matter what they did. Both Destiny (1) and ESO both experienced a shaky release with many issues. Over the life of the games and DLC’s they slowly become polished experiences. Since there is no ESO 2, we can start at the Morrowind era as the beginning of the current game there is today.
Morrowind saw a nerf to sustain, Destiny 2 also saw a nerf to sustain with the hidden juggler effect (ammo does not drop for equipped weapon)
PvP was never “balanced” in either game, because in PvP meta setups are just more effective. Destiny 1 had a lot of powerful weapons and abilities, but they rewarded a skilled player since by everyone being OP, it was an even playing field. Destiny 2 went the opposite direction, making pvp bland and slow paced, focusing on a team shot meta because 1v1’s aren’t feasible when your opponent could just disengage. See the heavy armor meta in high MMR bg’s now.

Locking item types previously earned through gameplay activities behind the crown store (new mounts, motifs) is similar to Destiny 2’s decision to lock sparrows and ships behind Eververse (obtainable by gameplay in D1)

Mobility is one of the things that saved D1 from obscurity. The game felt fluid and fast, and had hands down some of the best and most rewarding movement in an FPS. Destiny 2 saw a full on nerf to mobility and the character movement is painfully slow. ZOS’s next target after shields is none other than mobility.

High gunskill was rewarded in Destiny 1 with hand cannons being a crisp 3 tap precision kill in PvP and snipier rifles being the highest DPS against bosses. Magblades in ESO reward a skilled player by having the highest DPS ceiling for those who are skilled enough to weave the bow. Guess what was nerfed in Destiny 2? Gunskill (bloom mechanic, no special weapon slot, slower TTK and gameplay) The only thing other than being one of very few MMO’s on console that makes ESO successful is the faster paced combat, yet the nerf hammer is coming down on it.

The more of Bungie’s failures with Destiny 2 that you are aware of, the more apparent it is that ZOS is making the same mistakes today. I still play ESO because I enjoy the game, but I also stuck with D2 for longer than I should have hoping Bungie would turn it around into the game that D1 was.

Latios · October 2018

Both games are trememdously different, and you are very mistaken on your assumption that the hardcores are the ones that play the game the most. By hardcore, I believe you mean those who try to have everything BiS, to complete HM trials, that play PvP with only the very best, etc.

A quick look at content completion rate will show that these are, in fact, a minority.

I don't do HM trials anymore. I do play PvP, but I'm far from those crazy guys who do it 24/7. I play when I feel like doing it, and I've been going online everyday. And I'm very sure that many that play the game and, more importantly, spend a very big amount of money on it, don't always care about these things.

Look, I'm not entering in the merit of the nerfs. They may be wrong, they may be right. I've played templar since launch and it's been nerfed many times, but I never really cared cause I don't aim to be the absolute best at everything. I just want to have fun, you know? And I believe that's most people's objectives here. So comparing the game to destiny, which has a much lower player base and is not that expansive into content(You can be pretty much anything in ESO and do whatever you want), is kinda invalid. I'd say the game is even healthier than when I quit around an year ago, and I've been back for 45 days straight.

Lokirules · October 2018

Destiny 1 and 2 both crashed for different reasons 1 because of Bungie being forced to cut 98 percent of their game by Activison and then restarting mid way through production destroying a good story from what we can tell to the crap we saw at launch. The game only became somewhat playable after Taken King. Destiny 2 burned because of one simple reason. Microtransactions and the truly Disgusting lengths Activison went to promote the Evervese. Zos has never become that shady tho they have come close a few times. You are completely right Zos must stop doing nerfs we are in a weaker position than at launch in terms of class identity. Why? Because of Cp and Extremely strong proc sets used to sell dlc. Cp just needs to be taken out of the game completely.

DanteYoda · October 2018

Its the opposite here they cater to the top % not the casuals.. The casuals are the ones paying for the game if they aren't catered to the games lights go out (over time)..

jainiadral · October 2018

I still don't understand how nerfs cater to casuals. Seems like the opposite, TBH. Nerfs make everything more difficult.

Avnr · October 2018

those nerfs are just cosmetic fixes or another step in master plan for balance
I really hope there is a plan and no one guessing

this is a great game with no good skills design.
how can anyone compare wow graphic to eso? wow is ugly as hell . but wow have perfect skills design

I cant compare any game to eso , the art and design is the best over any mmo out there.

Lake · October 2018

X =/= Y

Morgul667 · October 2018

Zos motto is to lower the ceiling and lower the gap between casuals and hardcore players

But it is true hardcore players are part of the long term population as well as the main source of internet review/data

Tan9oSuccka · October 2018

Destiny 2 is failing because they took out the gear treadmill at the request of the community.

Now, everyone is pretty much the same without any effort. End game raids are meh at best. PvP is not all that great either.

People can point to micro transactions all they want. I believe the above has more to do with it.

I don’t see the same thing for ESO.

starkerealm · October 2018

Could have sworn the issue with Destiny 2 was that they actually locked off existing content with each DLC release. As the gear cap increased, you could no longer access dailies that were rebalanced for the new cap without buying the DLC to allow you to access it.

So, they effectively locked endgame content away from players who'd been running it unless they paid up again.

EDIT: Sorta like if, next year, the "new" system added with the next chapter was the introduction of CP180 gear, but existing vet dungeons, trials and arenas now required you be in CP170 gear to queue or zone in, but you could only get 170 on the new map.

And that lead to the sharp decline at launch.

Also, some other shady stuff like gutting endgame XP gains for a player, to heavily incentivize them to buy their lootboxes.

Which isn't exactly the same thing. Though @Tan9oSuccka may have a clearer picture of the game's current woes.

Hamrb · October 2018

Might I point out that destiny 1 and 2 as well as eso are highly profitable, wildly successful games.

Or was that not already clear?

I love when people talk about “dead games” as they continue to release DLC multiple times a year. The games may be dead or boring to you, and possibly many other people. But they are still doing just fine

StamWhipCultist · October 2018

destiny is super boring, there is zero comparability with ESO.

spartaxoxo · October 2018

Casuals pull in more money, not the 1% because they are the bulk of a playerbase.

I am not talking about those people who come and go quickly.

I'm talking about the ones that play for years, pay lots of money for cosmetics, *** around for a couple of hours, and then log off. They don't have the best gear. There is loads of content they haven't done. And they don't care too much about what is or isn't balanced. Many of them don't even read the patch notes and just learn important changes through the grapevine.

As long as those people always have something to do (and they go through content very slowly) they will spend money and play.

Hardcore people are good to have because they tend to provide feedback, make videos and other fan content, and spread word of mouth. This all attracts more casual audiences.

But it isn't the casual player coming here for buffs and nerfs. It is the hardcore player.

And the gap has to be wide enough that hardcore people feel their effort is worth it, but not so wide that their tendency to exclude anyone who isn't perfect at the game doesn't completely kill casual progression.

That is what tends to cause PvE nerfs. The casual being unable to progress to a hardcore if they so choose because every group has demands that are completely ludicrous unless you were hardcore from the beginning.

Ermiq · October 2018

Nyquil_zZ wrote: »

Destiny 2 crashed and burned because Bungie went overboard with nerfs in an attempt to cater to the casual audience. Morrowind saw a nerf to sustain, Destiny 2 also saw a nerf to sustain with the hidden juggler effect (ammo does not drop for equipped weapon)

Well, ok, so such sustain nerfs are making casual players happy while making hardcore pro-players to QQ? Seriously?
By the way, IIRC there was a quite significant DPS increase right after Morrowind. Sure, those were casuals who managed to pull more DPS with 'nerfed' sustain.

Nyquil_zZ wrote: »

PvP was never “balanced” in either game, because in PvP meta setups are just more effective. Destiny 1 had a lot of powerful weapons and abilities, but they rewarded a skilled player since by everyone being OP, it was an even playing field.

Typical MMORPG PvPers mindset: 'Gimme super-duper nuclear annihilator and I'll show ya all how good I am'.
By the way, PvP can't be truly 100% balanced, no matter what game it is, no matter what devs do. Unless they make everybody identical, which means death to MMORPGs.

Nyquil_zZ wrote: »

Destiny 2 went the opposite direction, making pvp bland and slow paced, focusing on a team shot meta because 1v1’s aren’t feasible when your opponent could just disengage. See the heavy armor meta in high MMR bg’s now.

Destiny 2 tried to make PvP more reliable on tactics and group gameplay, the same ZOS seems trying to do. While I'm not sure if it might be a good idea for an FPS game, I know that it's the only right decision for MMORPG. Especially for MMORPG which has megaservers as ESO does. You know people have 100+ ping in ESO. I'm playing with 150-300 all the time. Fast paced combat based on player's reaction and personal skill just doesn't work in such environment. Moreover, RPG means role play, even in PvP there will be tanky build, support build, healer, and I believe it should be like that.

Nyquil_zZ wrote: »

Locking item types previously earned through gameplay activities behind the crown store (new mounts, motifs) is similar to Destiny 2’s decision to lock sparrows and ships behind Eververse (obtainable by gameplay in D1)

Totally agree here.

Nyquil_zZ wrote: »

High gunskill was rewarded in Destiny 1 with hand cannons being a crisp 3 tap precision kill in PvP and snipier rifles being the highest DPS against bosses. Magblades in ESO reward a skilled player by having the highest DPS ceiling for those who are skilled enough to weave the bow. Guess what was nerfed in Destiny 2? Gunskill (bloom mechanic, no special weapon slot, slower TTK and gameplay) The only thing other than being one of very few MMO’s on console that makes ESO successful is the faster paced combat, yet the nerf hammer is coming down on it.

Are you asking for one shot kills in PvP? Seriously?

Mayrael · October 2018

In general dumbing down the game makes it boring. Many of casuals will became pros in time, and then they will realise how bad was those changes. Games are fun because they are challenging. You think why Dark Souls series is so popular? Players want to see progress in their skills and strength, when everything comes to easy, everything you achieve is worthless ("Finally I killed that boss, was a hard fight!" And then some completely fresh newbie does the same and you're like "Oh, ok

" ) that's why raising the floor lowering the ceiling is very bad direction.

Sheezabeast · October 2018

LOL Destiny is just Borderlands with RPG looking armor

Very different games and game setups.

Zorgon_The_Revenged · October 2018

I'm waiting for Destiny 3 on the PS5, it's all about the cape physics and particle effects to me.

ResTandRespeC · October 2018

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Casuals pull in more money, not the 1% because they are the bulk of a playerbase.

I am not talking about those people who come and go quickly.

I'm talking about the ones that play for years, pay lots of money for cosmetics, *** around for a couple of hours, and then log off. They don't have the best gear. There is loads of content they haven't done. And they don't care too much about what is or isn't balanced. Many of them don't even read the patch notes and just learn important changes through the grapevine.

As long as those people always have something to do (and they go through content very slowly) they will spend money and play.

Hardcore people are good to have because they tend to provide feedback, make videos and other fan content, and spread word of mouth. This all attracts more casual audiences.

But it isn't the casual player coming here for buffs and nerfs. It is the hardcore player.

And the gap has to be wide enough that hardcore people feel their effort is worth it, but not so wide that their tendency to exclude anyone who isn't perfect at the game doesn't completely kill casual progression.

That is what tends to cause PvE nerfs. The casual being unable to progress to a hardcore if they so choose because every group has demands that are completely ludicrous unless you were hardcore from the beginning.

If thats why theyve been doing pve nerfs then zos is pretty bad at it lol. Every single PvE nerf, while aimed at the top tier player has made the game harder for middle tier players to progress. The nerfs make hard content harder, by making the highest dps numbers harder to achieve and survivability harder to maintain making groups even more stringent.

ResTandRespeC · October 2018

Eremith wrote: »

Nyquil_zZ wrote: »

Destiny 2 crashed and burned because Bungie went overboard with nerfs in an attempt to cater to the casual audience. Morrowind saw a nerf to sustain, Destiny 2 also saw a nerf to sustain with the hidden juggler effect (ammo does not drop for equipped weapon)

Well, ok, so such sustain nerfs are making casual players happy while making hardcore pro-players to QQ? Seriously?
By the way, IIRC there was a quite significant DPS increase right after Morrowind. Sure, those were casuals who managed to pull more DPS with 'nerfed' sustain.

Nyquil_zZ wrote: »

PvP was never “balanced” in either game, because in PvP meta setups are just more effective. Destiny 1 had a lot of powerful weapons and abilities, but they rewarded a skilled player since by everyone being OP, it was an even playing field.

Typical MMORPG PvPers mindset: 'Gimme super-duper nuclear annihilator and I'll show ya all how good I am'.
By the way, PvP can't be truly 100% balanced, no matter what game it is, no matter what devs do. Unless they make everybody identical, which means death to MMORPGs.

Nyquil_zZ wrote: »

Destiny 2 went the opposite direction, making pvp bland and slow paced, focusing on a team shot meta because 1v1’s aren’t feasible when your opponent could just disengage. See the heavy armor meta in high MMR bg’s now.

Destiny 2 tried to make PvP more reliable on tactics and group gameplay, the same ZOS seems trying to do. While I'm not sure if it might be a good idea for an FPS game, I know that it's the only right decision for MMORPG. Especially for MMORPG which has megaservers as ESO does. You know people have 100+ ping in ESO. I'm playing with 150-300 all the time. Fast paced combat based on player's reaction and personal skill just doesn't work in such environment. Moreover, RPG means role play, even in PvP there will be tanky build, support build, healer, and I believe it should be like that.

Nyquil_zZ wrote: »

Locking item types previously earned through gameplay activities behind the crown store (new mounts, motifs) is similar to Destiny 2’s decision to lock sparrows and ships behind Eververse (obtainable by gameplay in D1)

Totally agree here.

Nyquil_zZ wrote: »

High gunskill was rewarded in Destiny 1 with hand cannons being a crisp 3 tap precision kill in PvP and snipier rifles being the highest DPS against bosses. Magblades in ESO reward a skilled player by having the highest DPS ceiling for those who are skilled enough to weave the bow. Guess what was nerfed in Destiny 2? Gunskill (bloom mechanic, no special weapon slot, slower TTK and gameplay) The only thing other than being one of very few MMO’s on console that makes ESO successful is the faster paced combat, yet the nerf hammer is coming down on it.

Are you asking for one shot kills in PvP? Seriously?

I think it was more of a comparison.

Reistr_the_Unbroken · October 2018

My friend gave me a copy of destiny 2, never installed it since I got it. Might sell it at a Game Stop soon or something.

srfrogg23 · October 2018

Yeah, I'm thinking that comparing ESO to Destiny 2 is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. I get it, nerfs are bad, or whatever, but ESO offers a lot more than just competitive end game content. I'm pretty sure its attracting a broader and more varied audience than Destiny 2. Not that I think Destiny 2 is a failure by any means. It seems ok for what it does. It's just different.

Broyston · October 2018

I am a "casual" and have been here since launch. Frankly nerfs/buffs etc don't bother me, I am here for the quests/story/landscapes etc. I have little interest in trials or DLC dungeons. My DPS has always been good enough to do whatever I want in the game. Nothing ZOS have done in any patch has ruined my enjoyment. So I at least disprove the OPs statement that the causal crowd move on easily, although my love of the Elder Scrolls franchise may be something to do with it.

Wifeaggro13 · October 2018

Latios wrote: »

Both games are trememdously different, and you are very mistaken on your assumption that the hardcores are the ones that play the game the most. By hardcore, I believe you mean those who try to have everything BiS, to complete HM trials, that play PvP with only the very best, etc.

A quick look at content completion rate will show that these are, in fact, a minority.

I don't do HM trials anymore. I do play PvP, but I'm far from those crazy guys who do it 24/7. I play when I feel like doing it, and I've been going online everyday. And I'm very sure that many that play the game and, more importantly, spend a very big amount of money on it, don't always care about these things.

Look, I'm not entering in the merit of the nerfs. They may be wrong, they may be right. I've played templar since launch and it's been nerfed many times, but I never really cared cause I don't aim to be the absolute best at everything. I just want to have fun, you know? And I believe that's most people's objectives here. So comparing the game to destiny, which has a much lower player base and is not that expansive into content(You can be pretty much anything in ESO and do whatever you want), is kinda invalid. I'd say the game is even healthier than when I quit around an year ago, and I've been back for 45 days straight.

So you did do hard mode trials at one time? You my friend are not a casual. I hate to break it to you . You have been playing every day and have played the end game . The casual is some one who plays the game for about 60 days and bails. They spend a bunch of money on cosmetics.then they come in here and ask that the dungeon be turned into a solo content and want the game to have an off line mode.your not the casual he is referring to

Malprave · October 2018

Destiny, like ESO, had high expectations as heir apparent to a very popular franchise. As somebody coming from that shooter genre background having literally played over 10k online Halo matches, in my opinion ESO does a much better job satisfying its target audience than Destiny did.

swirve · October 2018

Nyquil_zZ wrote: »

This probably won't ring a bell if you aren't familiar with the Destiny series. Destiny 2 crashed and burned because Bungie went overboard with nerfs in an attempt to cater to the casual audience. They didn’t consider that the casual audience will only play the game a short time before moving on, no matter what they did. Both Destiny (1) and ESO both experienced a shaky release with many issues. Over the life of the games and DLC’s they slowly become polished experiences. Since there is no ESO 2, we can start at the Morrowind era as the beginning of the current game there is today.
Morrowind saw a nerf to sustain, Destiny 2 also saw a nerf to sustain with the hidden juggler effect (ammo does not drop for equipped weapon)
PvP was never “balanced” in either game, because in PvP meta setups are just more effective. Destiny 1 had a lot of powerful weapons and abilities, but they rewarded a skilled player since by everyone being OP, it was an even playing field. Destiny 2 went the opposite direction, making pvp bland and slow paced, focusing on a team shot meta because 1v1’s aren’t feasible when your opponent could just disengage. See the heavy armor meta in high MMR bg’s now.

Locking item types previously earned through gameplay activities behind the crown store (new mounts, motifs) is similar to Destiny 2’s decision to lock sparrows and ships behind Eververse (obtainable by gameplay in D1)

Mobility is one of the things that saved D1 from obscurity. The game felt fluid and fast, and had hands down some of the best and most rewarding movement in an FPS. Destiny 2 saw a full on nerf to mobility and the character movement is painfully slow. ZOS’s next target after shields is none other than mobility.

High gunskill was rewarded in Destiny 1 with hand cannons being a crisp 3 tap precision kill in PvP and snipier rifles being the highest DPS against bosses. Magblades in ESO reward a skilled player by having the highest DPS ceiling for those who are skilled enough to weave the bow. Guess what was nerfed in Destiny 2? Gunskill (bloom mechanic, no special weapon slot, slower TTK and gameplay) The only thing other than being one of very few MMO’s on console that makes ESO successful is the faster paced combat, yet the nerf hammer is coming down on it.

The more of Bungie’s failures with Destiny 2 that you are aware of, the more apparent it is that ZOS is making the same mistakes today. I still play ESO because I enjoy the game, but I also stuck with D2 for longer than I should have hoping Bungie would turn it around into the game that D1 was.

High gunskill.... hahahahaha

Hateanthem · October 2018

INB4 people get angry and start calling each other RP'ers.

Joy_Division · October 2018

Latios wrote: »

Both games are trememdously different, and you are very mistaken on your assumption that the hardcores are the ones that play the game the most. By hardcore, I believe you mean those who try to have everything BiS, to complete HM trials, that play PvP with only the very best, etc.

A quick look at content completion rate will show that these are, in fact, a minority.

I don't do HM trials anymore. I do play PvP, but I'm far from those crazy guys who do it 24/7. I play when I feel like doing it, and I've been going online everyday. And I'm very sure that many that play the game and, more importantly, spend a very big amount of money on it, don't always care about these things.

Look, I'm not entering in the merit of the nerfs. They may be wrong, they may be right. I've played templar since launch and it's been nerfed many times, but I never really cared cause I don't aim to be the absolute best at everything. I just want to have fun, you know? And I believe that's most people's objectives here. So comparing the game to destiny, which has a much lower player base and is not that expansive into content(You can be pretty much anything in ESO and do whatever you want), is kinda invalid. I'd say the game is even healthier than when I quit around an year ago, and I've been back for 45 days straight.

Since you are representing the "I never really cared about nerfs" and the "I just want to have fun" player -base, let me ask you a question?

How much fun do you have on your nerfed templar if you are not capable of completing content such as vMA? Not capable of healing yourself after getting ganked by nightblade? Being asked by one of your old friends to join a Maw trial and wiping repeatedly on the first boss?

How is the game fun to play on weak characters?

aubrey.baconb16_ESO · October 2018

Broyston wrote: »

I am a "casual" and have been here since launch. Frankly nerfs/buffs etc don't bother me, I am here for the quests/story/landscapes etc. I have little interest in trials or DLC dungeons. My DPS has always been good enough to do whatever I want in the game. Nothing ZOS have done in any patch has ruined my enjoyment. So I at least disprove the OPs statement that the causal crowd move on easily, although my love of the Elder Scrolls franchise may be something to do with it.

And I'll second that. So that's at least two casual's who haven't moved on yet.

Juju_beans · October 2018

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Yeah, I'm thinking that comparing ESO to Destiny 2 is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. I get it, nerfs are bad, or whatever, but ESO offers a lot more than just competitive end game content. I'm pretty sure its attracting a broader and more varied audience than Destiny 2. Not that I think Destiny 2 is a failure by any means. It seems ok for what it does. It's just different.

That is the big reason I left wow and came here.
Wow, over the years, pruned and pruned to where the game is now..hurry to level cap and do competitive end game dungeons/raids with never ending gear chasing.

ESO has so much more to do.

Rain_Greyraven · October 2018

The worst thing a community can do is blame other parts of the same community for issues with a game, or decisions a developer makes.

The Destiny franchise, has one of the nastiest trollish and downright mean spirited gaming communities on the planet, I don't think that is what Zenimax wants ESO community to be, I know many new players that were ran off because they didn't fit in the box of the uber elite players, and that is another reason Warframe is eating Destiny 2's lunch... anyone can play and enjoy it.

It's idiotic ( I'm talking about imaging the most ignorant group you can conceive and taking them down 30 intelligence points) in the extreme, to blame other players for anything Zenimax does.

No ones opinion on the forums is ever heard, the GF is on autopilot, because it's basically a playpen for the proles to vent in. So stop tearing at your own community and focus on the actual cause of these decisions the developers not understanding their own product.

code65536 · October 2018

Why the hell do people feel like making things about casuals-vs-hardcore?

ZOS stated that the Morrowind nerfs were supposed to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". It lowered the ceiling, slightly lowered the floor, and devastated the midlevels.

These nerfs? Same thing again. It will lower the ceiling a little. Not by that much. Won't really affect the floor. And it will again devastate the middle.

ZOS doesn't cater to the hardcore or the casuals. If you paid any attention at all to the feedback and grievances, you'll see that they come from players of all levels of skill.

The problem is a dev team that is wildly out of touch with how the game is played. That's the problem. They don't play their game enough to understand their game. They push for cast-time abilities and heavy attacks. Nobody like that stuff. They blame shields for making healers useless. If they did their own content, they'd see why healers feel useless (hint: it has nothing to do with shields). They claim that shields mean a player can just stack damage. If they actually PvP as sorcs, they'll see that with the sorc's poor sustain and poor self-healing, every good PvP sorc runs at least one--often two--sustain sets. Stacking damage? What damage?

The game suffers from a combat team that has no vision (or at the very least fails to demonstrate that they have a vision). Magblades in PvP generally rely on stacking heals. Sorcs stack shields. DKs have a lot of CC. I wouldn't want to play a magblade like a sorc and I wouldn't want to play a sorc like a magblade. Each class has--or had--an identity. ZOS doesn't seem to realize this and instead push through change that force classes to play more and more similarly. E.g., introducing a too-good-to-pass-up Ele Weapon in Summerset and nerfing class abilities, pushing everyone to use the same ability.

To claim that this is about casuals-vs-hardcore demonstrates your own lack of understanding of this game--which is no better than that of the dev team's.