In Murkmire, magwarden brings nothing to the table in PVP that stamwarden doesn't

casparian · October 2018

At one point, magwarden had a lot to offer that stamwarden didn't. There were strong reasons to want a magwarden in your group even if you already had a stamwarden or two. After the Murkmire nerfs to magwarden, this is no longer the case in PVP. Unless something changes, the choice won't be between two different but effective paths toward being a warden, the choice will be between the efficient morphs and playstyle (stamwarden) and the inefficient, underperforming morphs and playstyle (magwarden). There just isn't anything that magwarden brings to a group that stamwarden doesn't do equally well or better:

- Magwarden has good offheals. Stamwarden has offheals that are just as good if not better, thanks to Vigor.
- Magwarden has big AOE burst DPS. Stamwarden has big AOE burst DPS, with the difference being that stamwarden also has Dawnbreaker and Steel Tornado.
- Magwarden used to have some of the game's best uptime on Major Expedition. Now they have exactly the same uptime as everyone else, but stamwarden also can make use of Forward Momentum without gimping their light attacks.
- Magwarden has Permafrost. But Stamwardens can also use Permafrost to great effect in PVP.
- Magwarden has Corrupting Pollen, an AOE Defile. Nevermind that many magwardens have dropped this since the skill often just doesn't apply the Defile to people in the AOE -- if you really want this skill in a group, a stamwarden can run it no problem.
- Magwarden has a strong shield against projectiles. But the sustain on this skill is so good that stamwardens can run it without feeling magicka pressure.
- Magwardens have an in-class stun. But it's so mediocre that stamwardens getting their stun from outside the class (Dizzy Swing, Reverb) don't feel like it's a big loss.
- Magwardens have an in-class DOT, stamwardens don't. Stamwardens don't feel this loss at all though, since (a) Poison Injection and Blood Craze are so good and (b) magwardens hate casting Fetcher Infection. (Remember how Fetcher was a pain point presented by the class reps? ZOS' response was to increase the cost. Very funny Wrobel.)
- Magwarden offers AOE Major Breach. Good, but not necessarily better than AOE Major Fracture, and certainly not a reason to prefer magwarden over stamwarden.
- Magwarden has no execute. Stamwardens have access to some of the best executes in the game.
- Magwarden offers a lot of AOE damage in general, but stamwardens are so much better AOE damage that they are the only class to seriously challenge magNB for the title of best group bomber in PVP.
- Magwarden used to have access to powerful damage shields (Annulment, Healing Ward). These shields are no longer powerful, and optimized builds will find a way not to rely on them. At any rate, heavy armor + Forward Momentum + Vigor will be a much better source of defense than Annulment and Healing Ward will be, and that of course is what stamwardens run.
- Maturation is an increasingly valuable passive for a group, but stamwardens can provide it just as well as magwardens can.

The one thing that magwarden has to offer that stamwarden simply doesn't bring to the table is roots: a magwarden relegated to root-bot can be pretty effective by spamming Shards, Blockade, and Frost Reach. The ironic thing is that magwarden isn't optimal for even this playstyle: root-bot works much better on a warden stacking health and proc sets instead of magicka.

@ZOS_GinaBruno can you make sure that the combat team knows that magwarden has now been relegated to a single playstyle (root bot) in PVP, thanks to a combination of a failure to address the class's pain points and the introduction of new nerfs to the class? The magwarden community would really like to see that change.

Rukzadlithau · October 2018

It doesn‘t bring anything to the table anymore, since the removal of Deep Fissure stun, that another magicka class can replicate better.

ccmedaddy · October 2018

It's a sad state of affairs when the majority of "mag" wardens I see in Cyrodil nowadays are those cancerous 40+k health builds that rely on proc sets for damage. I don't expect this to change next patch.

Joy_Division · October 2018

You know ZOS is going to interpret this to nerf stamdens

brandonv516 · October 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

You know ZOS is going to interpret this to nerf stamdens

Success.

LanceFoxMcCloud · October 2018

It's completely true though. Almost every change that's been made since launch has catered to Stamden. Is Zos even aware there's a magica side of this class? History proves they are not aware, at all.

_Ahala_ · October 2018

To fix the class they could add a majicka poison injection like execute to fetcher infection, revert the atrocious nerf to bird of prey, add true dps morphs to more winters embrace abilities like crystalized shield and frozen gate, give arctic blast a good mag scaling ice dot, rework northern storm while adding the 8% max majicka to a passive, and rework some of the winters embrace passives to offer more value to Magden… will they do it... I really don't think so considering that they continue to nerf Magden specifically while buffing Stamden, refuse to hear recommendations from people who are very knowledgeable about the class, and say things like "Stamden has worse sustain than Magden" and "Ice dps is not in the forseeable future"... If ice dps is never gonna happen, how they heck are they gonna buff Magden without buffing Stamden? Other Magicka subclasses have 2x the amount of class damaging abilities than Magden because the "Ice is for tanking only" mentality is holding Winters Embrace hostage... zos their are two morphs for every ability... would it be too much to ask that each have a tanking and dps morph? The reason many people bought this class was because it was advertised as the ice mage... an archetype than many have enjoyed in previous elder scrolls titles... until ice dps is a thing, Magden will continue to suffer in both PvP and PvE and will continue to have no identity rather than "Stamden but with the wrong morphs"

Morgul667 · October 2018

In order to understand others better i now play all classes stam and magicka on a daily basis

Magden is not easy compared to others and it does not seem to get better

templesus · October 2018

What do you mean? They bring free kills. I love Xing and seeing a Warden that turns out to be a Magden, makes my day.

RedRook · October 2018

It's interesting how this all evolved. Stamden has most of the stuff magden has: the mushrooms, the netch, the bonus to frost damage on their cool AOE ultimate. I guess when you give all the things to both versions, the tools stamina specs get from weapons and armor are just that much better.

But magdens get the healstick! Yay?

Sanctum74 · October 2018

Not sure what you guys are doing, but magden can be built as a monster AOE, single target, or support/cc build. Honestly I feel like I'm cheating when I play magden. Sorry, but definitely a L2P issue.

Morgul667 · October 2018

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Not sure what you guys are doing, but magden can be built as a monster AOE, single target, or support/cc build. Honestly I feel like I'm cheating when I play magden. Sorry, but definitely a L2P issue.

Can you share with us? id be happy to l2p my mag warden as i started not long ago

Please educate me

MLGProPlayer · October 2018

They're just as bad in PvE.

- Lowest DPS of any class
- Hardest rotation in the game (tied with magblade)
- Zero utility when played as a DD

casparian · October 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

You know ZOS is going to interpret this to nerf stamdens

I fully expect ZOS' solution to be nerfing Vigor and removing the mag sustain from Shimmering Shield. I'm not being sarcastic right now.

Sanctum74 · October 2018

Morgul667 wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Not sure what you guys are doing, but magden can be built as a monster AOE, single target, or support/cc build. Honestly I feel like I'm cheating when I play magden. Sorry, but definitely a L2P issue.

Can you share with us? id be happy to l2p my mag warden as i started not long ago

Please educate me

Depends what you're trying to do, there's quite a few sets that work well with warden. Necro, shackle, spinners, and hist sap heals make you godly in addition to other warden heals and passives then just insert monster set of choice.

For AOE/CC builds ice staff is a must and locks down groups. Winters revenge, blockade of frost, deep fissure, and impulse melts groups especially if you throw grothdar set in the mix.

For single target a master lighting staff or flame staff if you don't have masters. Deep fissure, fetcher flies, shock/flame clench, birds, and skoria creates a lot of pressure since your damage abilities heal you in the process you can always stay on the offensive.

Ranged builds can't touch you with shimmering shield and bird of prey gives you a nice damage boost and much needed mobility.

A free purge that also heals you, gives you magic back, and increases your damage as well as oblivion and disease enchants really help as well.

Imo magden is absolutely disgusting, but in a good way

Edit: Murkmire will give us a nice passive damage boost and with the evasion nerfs your birds are going to hit much more often and harder.

casparian · October 2018

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Not sure what you guys are doing, but magden can be built as a monster AOE, single target, or support/cc build. Honestly I feel like I'm cheating when I play magden. Sorry, but definitely a L2P issue.

If you read my post, you'll see that I clearly say magwarden has very AOE damage and support/CC skills. Sure, single target isn't bad either. But stamwarden is significantly better at everything that magwarden does (except a CC build, where healthwarden outshines both stam and mag), in most cases by using either the very same abilities as magwarden or their stam morphs.

Morgul667 · October 2018

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Not sure what you guys are doing, but magden can be built as a monster AOE, single target, or support/cc build. Honestly I feel like I'm cheating when I play magden. Sorry, but definitely a L2P issue.

Can you share with us? id be happy to l2p my mag warden as i started not long ago

Please educate me

Depends what you're trying to do, there's quite a few sets that work well with warden. Necro, shackle, spinners, and hist sap heals make you godly in addition to other warden heals and passives then just insert monster set of choice.

For AOE/CC builds ice staff is a must and locks down groups. Winters revenge, blockade of frost, deep fissure, and impulse melts groups especially if you throw grothdar set in the mix.

For single target a master lighting staff or flame staff if you don't have masters. Deep fissure, fetcher flies, shock/flame clench, birds, and skoria creates a lot of pressure since your damage abilities heal you in the process you can always stay on the offensive.

Ranged builds can't touch you with shimmering shield and bird of prey gives you a nice damage boost and much needed mobility.

A free purge that also heals you, gives you magic back, and increases your damage as well as oblivion and disease enchants really help as well.

Imo magden is absolutely disgusting, but in a good way

Edit: Murkmire will give us a nice passive damage boost and with the evasion nerfs your birds are going to hit much more often and harder.

Thanks so far i run necro and iceheart what do you recommend as third set? For alterning aoe and mono? Shackle? Going to try your setups ... didnt think of impulse... went the usual with clench

Could you share those two examples back bar? Youre healed through attacks thanks to lotus or something else i missed?

My bars are closer to your single target bar but i didnt slot birds as i feel they dont give pressure the opponent too much?

Sanctum74 · October 2018

casparian wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Not sure what you guys are doing, but magden can be built as a monster AOE, single target, or support/cc build. Honestly I feel like I'm cheating when I play magden. Sorry, but definitely a L2P issue.

If you read my post, you'll see that I clearly say magwarden has very AOE damage and support/CC skills. Sure, single target isn't bad either. But stamwarden is significantly better at everything that magwarden does (except a CC build, where healthwarden outshines both stam and mag), in most cases by using either the very same abilities as magwarden or their stam morphs.

Stamden is great when you have an ult up, but to me it just feels boring and the underwhelming without an ult to secure kills where as magden I can always be on the offensive and keep killing regardless.

I also enjoy sorc and nightblade more for single target, but I feel magden can really be built to do anything more effectively even if it feels boring at times.

Juhasow · October 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

You know ZOS is going to interpret this to nerf stamdens

What's wrong with that ?

Sanctum74 · October 2018

Morgul667 wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Not sure what you guys are doing, but magden can be built as a monster AOE, single target, or support/cc build. Honestly I feel like I'm cheating when I play magden. Sorry, but definitely a L2P issue.

Can you share with us? id be happy to l2p my mag warden as i started not long ago

Please educate me

Depends what you're trying to do, there's quite a few sets that work well with warden. Necro, shackle, spinners, and hist sap heals make you godly in addition to other warden heals and passives then just insert monster set of choice.

For AOE/CC builds ice staff is a must and locks down groups. Winters revenge, blockade of frost, deep fissure, and impulse melts groups especially if you throw grothdar set in the mix.

For single target a master lighting staff or flame staff if you don't have masters. Deep fissure, fetcher flies, shock/flame clench, birds, and skoria creates a lot of pressure since your damage abilities heal you in the process you can always stay on the offensive.

Ranged builds can't touch you with shimmering shield and bird of prey gives you a nice damage boost and much needed mobility.

A free purge that also heals you, gives you magic back, and increases your damage as well as oblivion and disease enchants really help as well.

Imo magden is absolutely disgusting, but in a good way

Edit: Murkmire will give us a nice passive damage boost and with the evasion nerfs your birds are going to hit much more often and harder.

Thanks so far i run necro and iceheart what do you recommend as third set? For alterning aoe and mono? Shackle? Going to try your setups ... didnt think of impulse... went the usual with clench

Could you share those two examples back bar? Youre healed through attacks thanks to lotus or something else i missed?

My bars are closer to your single target bar but i didnt slot birds as i feel they dont give pressure the opponent too much?

I personally love shackle, you could always go with a damage set, but when you consider battle spirit and resistance the extra damage really doesn't help that much when you run out of stamina and get cc'd and die.

Impulse I only use if I'm running an AOE build since the health debuff really helps as a poor mans execute and helps create a little more pressure when I'm outnumbered and waiting for fissure to go off.

As far as healing through attacks you have your bond with nature passive and just about any other hot works well with it(trellis, lotus, or mutagen) I started using hist sap last patch because I'm usually always affected by a disabling effect, immobilization, or snare so the heal is up almost 100% and really saves your butt when you're lying on the ground or negated.

If you don't like birds you can always go with crushing shock or force pulse, but with auto dodge being removed next patch your birds will create much more pressure. It's kind of a wash your birds tooltip will be bigger, but destro will give you more penetration and since each attach is basically 3 attacks you will have more chance to crit and cause status effects. Uggggh I think I just convinced myself to switch out birds for destro, lol.

Joy_Division · October 2018

Juhasow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

You know ZOS is going to interpret this to nerf stamdens

What's wrong with that ?

Because nerfing Stamden does not solve Magden issues or make them any more enjoyable to play.

kaithuzar · October 2018

#Permafrost

Sanctum74 · October 2018

I think magden would be in a really great spot if they just cut down on the animation times. Most of the animations are 2 seconds long and don't cancel very well so losing 2 gcd's for every buff and damage skill cuts down dps significantly and can make gameplay a little slow and boring.

Morgul667 · October 2018

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Not sure what you guys are doing, but magden can be built as a monster AOE, single target, or support/cc build. Honestly I feel like I'm cheating when I play magden. Sorry, but definitely a L2P issue.

Can you share with us? id be happy to l2p my mag warden as i started not long ago

Please educate me

Depends what you're trying to do, there's quite a few sets that work well with warden. Necro, shackle, spinners, and hist sap heals make you godly in addition to other warden heals and passives then just insert monster set of choice.

For AOE/CC builds ice staff is a must and locks down groups. Winters revenge, blockade of frost, deep fissure, and impulse melts groups especially if you throw grothdar set in the mix.

For single target a master lighting staff or flame staff if you don't have masters. Deep fissure, fetcher flies, shock/flame clench, birds, and skoria creates a lot of pressure since your damage abilities heal you in the process you can always stay on the offensive.

Ranged builds can't touch you with shimmering shield and bird of prey gives you a nice damage boost and much needed mobility.

A free purge that also heals you, gives you magic back, and increases your damage as well as oblivion and disease enchants really help as well.

Imo magden is absolutely disgusting, but in a good way

Edit: Murkmire will give us a nice passive damage boost and with the evasion nerfs your birds are going to hit much more often and harder.

Thanks so far i run necro and iceheart what do you recommend as third set? For alterning aoe and mono? Shackle? Going to try your setups ... didnt think of impulse... went the usual with clench

Could you share those two examples back bar? Youre healed through attacks thanks to lotus or something else i missed?

My bars are closer to your single target bar but i didnt slot birds as i feel they dont give pressure the opponent too much?

I personally love shackle, you could always go with a damage set, but when you consider battle spirit and resistance the extra damage really doesn't help that much when you run out of stamina and get cc'd and die.

Impulse I only use if I'm running an AOE build since the health debuff really helps as a poor mans execute and helps create a little more pressure when I'm outnumbered and waiting for fissure to go off.

As far as healing through attacks you have your bond with nature passive and just about any other hot works well with it(trellis, lotus, or mutagen) I started using hist sap last patch because I'm usually always affected by a disabling effect, immobilization, or snare so the heal is up almost 100% and really saves your butt when you're lying on the ground or negated.

If you don't like birds you can always go with crushing shock or force pulse, but with auto dodge being removed next patch your birds will create much more pressure. It's kind of a wash your birds tooltip will be bigger, but destro will give you more penetration and since each attach is basically 3 attacks you will have more chance to crit and cause status effects. Uggggh I think I just convinced myself to switch out birds for destro, lol.

Lol thanks

Was thinking or hist sap as well

Will review them

Could you share your backbar?

ESO_Nightingale · October 2018

casparian wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

You know ZOS is going to interpret this to nerf stamdens

I fully expect ZOS' solution to be nerfing Vigor and removing the mag sustain from Shimmering Shield. I'm not being sarcastic right now.

i swear to ***, if they remove it from the base skill i am going to quit. crystallised slab is *** horrible and you're just gimping yourself if you use it over shimmering shield.

Juhasow · October 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

You know ZOS is going to interpret this to nerf stamdens

What's wrong with that ?

Because nerfing Stamden does not solve Magden issues or make them any more enjoyable to play.

But atleast it balances stamden. Small victory but still. Atleast when both stam and magden will suck the QQ will reach level where developer starts to react. For now stamdaen effectiveness totally covers issues of the class in other setups because many abilities cannot be touched since it could buff stamden furthermore. Since stamden is strong majority of wardens chooses it and from developer perspective everything looks ok since not many ppl complains since most of wardens are stamdens. Similar issue that nightblade have. Stamden related nerfs could open clear path for magden buffs.

LeHarrt91 · October 2018

Juhasow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

You know ZOS is going to interpret this to nerf stamdens

What's wrong with that ?

Because nerfing Stamden does not solve Magden issues or make them any more enjoyable to play.

But atleast it balances stamden. Small victory but still.

As long as the nerfs dont affect PVE Stamden, fine. its only just becoming comparable.

I would be fine with a pvp nerf, i got annoyed with my StamDen when they first became FotM.

ESO_Nightingale · October 2018

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

You know ZOS is going to interpret this to nerf stamdens

What's wrong with that ?

Because nerfing Stamden does not solve Magden issues or make them any more enjoyable to play.

But atleast it balances stamden. Small victory but still.

As long as the nerfs dont affect PVE Stamden, fine. its only just becoming comparable.

I would be fine with a pvp nerf, i got annoyed with my StamDen when they first became FotM.

as a magden i wouldnt mind a nerf to shimmering if it meant a massive buff or rework to slab as that skill is useless, but fun.

LeHarrt91 · October 2018

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

You know ZOS is going to interpret this to nerf stamdens

What's wrong with that ?

Because nerfing Stamden does not solve Magden issues or make them any more enjoyable to play.

But atleast it balances stamden. Small victory but still.

As long as the nerfs dont affect PVE Stamden, fine. its only just becoming comparable.

I would be fine with a pvp nerf, i got annoyed with my StamDen when they first became FotM.

as a magden i wouldnt mind a nerf to shimmering if it meant a massive buff or rework to slab as that skill is useless, but fun.

to be honest i dont use shimmering on my MagDen (i dont have enough bar space), only my StamDen and to soon to be TankDen.

ESO_Nightingale · October 2018

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

You know ZOS is going to interpret this to nerf stamdens

What's wrong with that ?

Because nerfing Stamden does not solve Magden issues or make them any more enjoyable to play.

But atleast it balances stamden. Small victory but still.

As long as the nerfs dont affect PVE Stamden, fine. its only just becoming comparable.

I would be fine with a pvp nerf, i got annoyed with my StamDen when they first became FotM.

as a magden i wouldnt mind a nerf to shimmering if it meant a massive buff or rework to slab as that skill is useless, but fun.

to be honest i dont use shimmering on my MagDen (i dont have enough bar space), only my StamDen and to soon to be TankDen.

hence the nerf

Feanor · October 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

You know ZOS is going to interpret this to nerf stamdens

Not at all. If history serves as an example they’re going to change stuff and it turns out as magDen nerf and StamWarden buff somehow.