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Lower the ceiling, raise the floor, lol to people who got gud
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Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I feel like Murkmire is going to be the patch of "Git Gud".
Damage shields are getting nerfed, RNG dodge is going away, and i-frames are being reduced for dodge rolling projectiles.
Both stamina and magicka are getting their own respective crutches nerfed, and I'm looking forward to see who will be left standing.
My guess is probably the stamina community. Why? It's been the more difficult play style for as long as I can remember so stamina players are used to an uphill battle. Magicka, not so much.
I encourage all of you to test out builds, and see what works, and what doesn't.
Either way I'm looking forward to next update.
Nah. The folks left standing will be the non-competitive crowd like me who don’t give a crap about nerfs/buffs to begin with. I love it how the world seems to end every patch cycle for the competitive crowd and meanwhile I keep doing what I do without missing a beat. Get good. Get creative. Get off the meta sheep train. Problems solved.
5 -
DanteYoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The motivation to improve, especially in PvP, is lost when you walk into Cyrodiil and get creamed for months on end, just to slightly improve and get someones health down halfway before getting creamed.
In PvE, I'll bet more than half of the population can't animation cancel. Have never been able to. Yet Zos keeps raising the bar by introducing one shot mechanics and encouraging bringing dps instead of healers to burn before you even see the mechanic.
This "lower the ceiling, raise the floor" mentality you speak of? Haven't seen much of it in actual play. Seems the gap is wider than ever..Sadly, game companies seem to listen to the average forum braggadocio who endlessly complains that everything is too easy, that they can solo content wearing nothing but a loincloth and a smile at lvl 1, even though most people are full of crap.
Then the rest of the player base ends up with wildly ridiculous bosses/game mechanics, and the laziest game mechanic of them all, the one-shot kill.
I can animation cancel though. After a fashion.
I've been convinced for some time that animation canceling is the single biggest difference between our nominal "average" and "high end" players, especially as the game does absolutely nothing to teach players about it (or that it even exists!). If ZOS were interested in deflating the performance gap between these groups (and their behavior indicates that they clearly are not), they would remove animation canceling completely. Effects on streamers and dummy fighters would be dramatic, while the vast majority of the player base wouldn't even know anything had happened.
Instead, they seek to fix the performance gap in dungeons via... one shot kill mechanics.
Some of us cannot do Animation Cancelling at all.. i'm on 300-400 sometimes 600 ping times.. You try doing steady animation canceling in that, hell try getting skills to work fluidly in that..3 -
JJBoomer✭✭✭✭✭wow, and here i thought video games were for everyone. when did that start not being the case? because i missed that memo.3
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russelmmendoza✭✭✭✭✭
✭Huge difference between new player and veteran elitist. I am a vet cp 780 but I have not cleared any vet dlc dungeon or trials. I even group with people vet cp 600 scared of doing normal dlc dungeons with fake tank and healer. One of my guild does normal dlc dungeons all the time with 4 dps sheesh. There is a huge difference between casual and elite players. Cp system is the best thing that ever happened for new and casual players.Edited by russelmmendoza on October 4, 2018 12:38AM1 -
Peekachu99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There is no real skill involved in passively dodging 1/6 or 1/5 (Warden) attacks. Dodge was removed from the game for a reason, and it was mostly exploited—dodge roll, too. Likewise, spamming 2 buttons to shield stack or throwing everything into a glass cannon build with 30K shields and no drawback, isn’t particularly taxing on the brain or reflexes either. Both of these crutches will soon be completely removed and the game will be better for it.1 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I feel like Murkmire is going to be the patch of "Git Gud".
Damage shields are getting nerfed, RNG dodge is going away, and i-frames are being reduced for dodge rolling projectiles.
Both stamina and magicka are getting their own respective crutches nerfed, and I'm looking forward to see who will be left standing.
My guess is probably the stamina community. Why? It's been the more difficult play style for as long as I can remember so stamina players are used to an uphill battle. Magicka, not so much.
I encourage all of you to test out builds, and see what works, and what doesn't.
Either way I'm looking forward to next update.
Nah. The folks left standing will be the non-competitive crowd like me who don’t give a crap about nerfs/buffs to begin with. I love it how the world seems to end every patch cycle for the competitive crowd and meanwhile I keep doing what I do without missing a beat. Get good. Get creative. Get off the meta sheep train. Problems solved.
That's all well and good, and frankly I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment, but it only works when the gap between meta and non-meta isn't so wide and new end game content isn't designed around meta. Right now, you're pretty much required to go with certain builds just to have a chance of coming close to the required numbers. And by that I don't mean elitist requirements. I mean people struggle to hit 20k even with meta builds. But even in some of the older stuff you want 25k+ unless you're confident everyone can perform absolutely flawlessly."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."1 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SakuraRush wrote: »AbysmalGhul wrote: »kylewwefan wrote: »We must be playing a different game or something. The gap between dummy humpers and average players is bigger than its ever been. Nothing happened to bring good players down. Average are getting made better. That’s kind of a good thing imo.
More damage doesn't equal better player
While I agree, try getting into a dlc vet trial with anything less than 35K-40K sustained dps.
I'm going through the "dummy humpiing" phase now trying to improve my dps so I can do dlc trials.
I spend one hour of my already precious play time practicing a rotation on that dummy every day.
It sucks. Its boring and not fun at all.
People don't want to have to do that for a game.
.
An hour a day?! Jheeze I just do 1 parse when I login to each character, maybe 4-6 minutes a day at most...
I don't do it at all. Dummies don't move. They don't fight back. My "parse" doesn't mean squat unless the entire fight is me standing still playing Simon with myself.
I agree with the premise of your statement.
A dummy parse against a non moving, non combative opponent where you are standing in one place does not compare in any way to a fight where you have to move, switch targets, move out of damage circles or cones, get stunned, and have to block or self heal etc
However the fact remains you have to prove you can do that dps to the group leads if you want to step foot in a vet dlc trial.
Well, the basis for dummy parses would seem to be the same as it's always been: perfecting rotation. You can't expect a dummy to produce decent counters....
So the parses are just pie in the sky - but the time spent should help people (like me) sort out rotations, and how (in my case) to build in the pauses into keyboarding so that half my attacks don't get lost in the ether!2 -
NyxWrench✭✭✭From my own testing, weaving (animation cancelling light attacks into skills) cannot account for more than roughly a 50% increase in DPS. That is, if you can do 10k without weaving, weaving will get you to 15k. If you can do 20k without weaving, weaving can get you to 30k. And that's for perfect weaving. The average player probably wouldn't gain more than about 25%.
So at the high end, weaving clearly accounts for a huge amount of damage (30k to 45k, for example), but at the low end, telling people that weaving will fix all their DPS problems is close to an outright lie. Weaving won't take you from 5k to 50k. It won't even take you from 5k to 10k. This is the skill barrier.
The CP boost from max CP (including the hidden bonuses to resources for 300+ CP) accounts for another 50%-60% increase, just from a quick estimate. So someone with max CP weaving 45k DPS would be at 20k DPS without weaving or CP (20k * 1.5 * 1.5). This is the time barrier, from grinding CP.
Certain high-end gear sets also provide massive boosts to damage output compared to what 'normal' players can acquire (crafted and overland sets). I have nothing to judge this by, but I would not be surprised for it to be a 50% boost once you add in improving them to gold tier, plus transmutations. This is the accessibility barrier, between the ability to get into and complete the areas that drop the gear, and having the money needed for upgrading and transmuting.
Speaking of gear, you have the transition from survivability gear to damage gear. Early on in the game, without the damage reduction of the CP stars, going pure offense is very likely to get you killed. It was very hard for me to transition from heavy armor to light armor as a sorcerer, because every time I tried, I'd end up dying. My nightblade friend has always died super quick whenever a mob turns on him, so he's heavily reliant on working with our tank friend (whereas I do a lot of stuff solo). When I was finally able to switch to light armor, my DPS went up by perhaps 50%. (PUGs that are afraid of dying will probably be in more survival gear than offense gear, so that's probably a large chunk of the difference in DPS.)
And of course having the right combinations of skills in your action bar, plus rotations, is another improvement that isn't obvious until you dig into how the skills actually work and fit together. This is the knowledge barrier. From my own experience, this can be considered another 50% jump.
Speaking of skills, actually using skills, rather than just spamming light attacks, is an easy doubling of damage.
And then you have the slight advantages you can gain by choosing the 'right' class and race. This could be perhaps a 10% difference. Maybe more. (EG: vampire Altmer sorcerer vs non-vampire Bosmer sorcerer).
So stepping up the ladder looks like:
3500 - Very bottom baseline. Light attacks only, 'bad' race/class.
4000 - 'Good' race/class.
8000 - Using skills decently.
12000 - Switch from survivability gear to offensive gear.
18000 - Weaving
27000 - Max CP
40000 - Best-in-slot gear
higher - accumulated small-scale optimizations, group buffs/debuffs, etc
It's not a perfect representation, because it's not a perfect 50% step each time, and people are progressing on different aspects of it at the same time. But it seems reasonably close as a general overview.
The important point is that they are almost all percentage multipliers, so having them all line up perfectly ends up with truly ludicrous damage outputs, but damage drops precipitously if you lose even one of the components. An 'average' player (moderate CP, survivability gear, poor understanding of skill mechanics, unskilled at weaving) is likely to have difficulty even breaking 10k. This is your 'floor'.
People complain about the power creep of CP, just like they claim that weaving is the ultimate reason for huge amounts of damage. Without optimal use of the CP stars, you aren't going to get that high of an overall damage output. And even if you do, that +50% is pretty mild without combining with all the other +50%'s.
The real issue is not CP, or animation cancelling, or BiS gear. It's that they all amplify each other, compounding into something that skyrockets past what 'average' players can achieve. The boost to CP helps raise the floor a little, but not really enough to make a major difference. Animation cancelling isn't going to make you a DPS god unless you've already perfected all the other components contributing to your damage.
If you had an average player getting +25% from all the above categories, compared to a top-end player getting +50% from all of them, rather than being slightly ahead, the top-end player would be doing 2.5x as much damage as the average player. Limiting things by raising the floor or lowering the ceiling is really difficult when you have compounding effects.
When you can multiply all these things together, average to moderately difficult content suddenly becomes easy. And if the devs balance content around making things a challenge to these top-end players, that's basically impossible for the vast majority of the playerbase.
The changes in Murkmire look like they're trying to cut into some of the above potential. With weaker defenses and lower sustain, you have to take away some of those multipliers in order to stay alive and keep generating damage. You can't keep letting things multiply together forever. Force players to make choices for survivability, and you put an effective cap on the limits of where you can go with damage output without trying to impose explicit caps.
6 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The motivation to improve, especially in PvP, is lost when you walk into Cyrodiil and get creamed for months on end, just to slightly improve and get someones health down halfway before getting creamed.
In PvE, I'll bet more than half of the population can't animation cancel. Have never been able to. Yet Zos keeps raising the bar by introducing one shot mechanics and encouraging bringing dps instead of healers to burn before you even see the mechanic.
This "lower the ceiling, raise the floor" mentality you speak of? Haven't seen much of it in actual play. Seems the gap is wider than ever..Sadly, game companies seem to listen to the average forum braggadocio who endlessly complains that everything is too easy, that they can solo content wearing nothing but a loincloth and a smile at lvl 1, even though most people are full of crap.
Then the rest of the player base ends up with wildly ridiculous bosses/game mechanics, and the laziest game mechanic of them all, the one-shot kill.
I can animation cancel though. After a fashion.
I've been convinced for some time that animation canceling is the single biggest difference between our nominal "average" and "high end" players, especially as the game does absolutely nothing to teach players about it (or that it even exists!). If ZOS were interested in deflating the performance gap between these groups (and their behavior indicates that they clearly are not), they would remove animation canceling completely. Effects on streamers and dummy fighters would be dramatic, while the vast majority of the player base wouldn't even know anything had happened.
Instead, they seek to fix the performance gap in dungeons via... one shot kill mechanics.
Some of us cannot do Animation Cancelling at all.. i'm on 300-400 sometimes 600 ping times.. You try doing steady animation canceling in that, hell try getting skills to work fluidly in that..
As an Aussie, I know your pain. Even bar-swapping feels like playing through molasses.
2 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The motivation to improve, especially in PvP, is lost when you walk into Cyrodiil and get creamed for months on end, just to slightly improve and get someones health down halfway before getting creamed.
In PvE, I'll bet more than half of the population can't animation cancel. Have never been able to. Yet Zos keeps raising the bar by introducing one shot mechanics and encouraging bringing dps instead of healers to burn before you even see the mechanic.
This "lower the ceiling, raise the floor" mentality you speak of? Haven't seen much of it in actual play. Seems the gap is wider than ever..Sadly, game companies seem to listen to the average forum braggadocio who endlessly complains that everything is too easy, that they can solo content wearing nothing but a loincloth and a smile at lvl 1, even though most people are full of crap.
Then the rest of the player base ends up with wildly ridiculous bosses/game mechanics, and the laziest game mechanic of them all, the one-shot kill.
I can animation cancel though. After a fashion.
I've been convinced for some time that animation canceling is the single biggest difference between our nominal "average" and "high end" players, especially as the game does absolutely nothing to teach players about it (or that it even exists!). If ZOS were interested in deflating the performance gap between these groups (and their behavior indicates that they clearly are not), they would remove animation canceling completely. Effects on streamers and dummy fighters would be dramatic, while the vast majority of the player base wouldn't even know anything had happened.
Instead, they seek to fix the performance gap in dungeons via... one shot kill mechanics.
Some of us cannot do Animation Cancelling at all.. i'm on 300-400 sometimes 600 ping times.. You try doing steady animation canceling in that, hell try getting skills to work fluidly in that..
As an Aussie, I know your pain. Even bar-swapping feels like playing through molasses.
Yup. I've got worse ping than you do from there.... and I live in the lower 48, 40 miles one way from decent broadband.
Sucks to be us.1 -
haelene✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sylvermynx wrote: »The motivation to improve, especially in PvP, is lost when you walk into Cyrodiil and get creamed for months on end, just to slightly improve and get someones health down halfway before getting creamed.
In PvE, I'll bet more than half of the population can't animation cancel. Have never been able to. Yet Zos keeps raising the bar by introducing one shot mechanics and encouraging bringing dps instead of healers to burn before you even see the mechanic.
This "lower the ceiling, raise the floor" mentality you speak of? Haven't seen much of it in actual play. Seems the gap is wider than ever..Sadly, game companies seem to listen to the average forum braggadocio who endlessly complains that everything is too easy, that they can solo content wearing nothing but a loincloth and a smile at lvl 1, even though most people are full of crap.
Then the rest of the player base ends up with wildly ridiculous bosses/game mechanics, and the laziest game mechanic of them all, the one-shot kill.
I can animation cancel though. After a fashion.
I've been convinced for some time that animation canceling is the single biggest difference between our nominal "average" and "high end" players, especially as the game does absolutely nothing to teach players about it (or that it even exists!). If ZOS were interested in deflating the performance gap between these groups (and their behavior indicates that they clearly are not), they would remove animation canceling completely. Effects on streamers and dummy fighters would be dramatic, while the vast majority of the player base wouldn't even know anything had happened.
Instead, they seek to fix the performance gap in dungeons via... one shot kill mechanics.
Some of us cannot do Animation Cancelling at all.. i'm on 300-400 sometimes 600 ping times.. You try doing steady animation canceling in that, hell try getting skills to work fluidly in that..
As an Aussie, I know your pain. Even bar-swapping feels like playing through molasses.
Yup. I've got worse ping than you do from there.... and I live in the lower 48, 40 miles one way from decent broadband.
Sucks to be us.
Same here, and the combat in this game feels absolutely horrible because of it.1 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sylvermynx wrote: »The motivation to improve, especially in PvP, is lost when you walk into Cyrodiil and get creamed for months on end, just to slightly improve and get someones health down halfway before getting creamed.
In PvE, I'll bet more than half of the population can't animation cancel. Have never been able to. Yet Zos keeps raising the bar by introducing one shot mechanics and encouraging bringing dps instead of healers to burn before you even see the mechanic.
This "lower the ceiling, raise the floor" mentality you speak of? Haven't seen much of it in actual play. Seems the gap is wider than ever..Sadly, game companies seem to listen to the average forum braggadocio who endlessly complains that everything is too easy, that they can solo content wearing nothing but a loincloth and a smile at lvl 1, even though most people are full of crap.
Then the rest of the player base ends up with wildly ridiculous bosses/game mechanics, and the laziest game mechanic of them all, the one-shot kill.
I can animation cancel though. After a fashion.
I've been convinced for some time that animation canceling is the single biggest difference between our nominal "average" and "high end" players, especially as the game does absolutely nothing to teach players about it (or that it even exists!). If ZOS were interested in deflating the performance gap between these groups (and their behavior indicates that they clearly are not), they would remove animation canceling completely. Effects on streamers and dummy fighters would be dramatic, while the vast majority of the player base wouldn't even know anything had happened.
Instead, they seek to fix the performance gap in dungeons via... one shot kill mechanics.
Some of us cannot do Animation Cancelling at all.. i'm on 300-400 sometimes 600 ping times.. You try doing steady animation canceling in that, hell try getting skills to work fluidly in that..
As an Aussie, I know your pain. Even bar-swapping feels like playing through molasses.
Yup. I've got worse ping than you do from there.... and I live in the lower 48, 40 miles one way from decent broadband.
Sucks to be us.
Same here, and the combat in this game feels absolutely horrible because of it.
I expect to get it sorted eventually. I played WoW for a decade - and the combat keyboarding was developed over all those years. Then RIFT - which was so much like WoW for the combat keyboarding, it was like playing the same game.
I've only about 3.5 months in this game, so things are not working right just yet. I will no doubt find the sweet spot again - I'm just a bit impatient. Not to mention that combat in ESO isn't.... optimized as well as in the other games....0 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anyone who has been playing pvp for years knows it hasn’t gotten noticeably easier in general and harder to small man.
Edit: No one reads threads before replying.Edited by CatchMeTrolling on October 4, 2018 2:33AM1 -
haelene✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sylvermynx wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »The motivation to improve, especially in PvP, is lost when you walk into Cyrodiil and get creamed for months on end, just to slightly improve and get someones health down halfway before getting creamed.
In PvE, I'll bet more than half of the population can't animation cancel. Have never been able to. Yet Zos keeps raising the bar by introducing one shot mechanics and encouraging bringing dps instead of healers to burn before you even see the mechanic.
This "lower the ceiling, raise the floor" mentality you speak of? Haven't seen much of it in actual play. Seems the gap is wider than ever..Sadly, game companies seem to listen to the average forum braggadocio who endlessly complains that everything is too easy, that they can solo content wearing nothing but a loincloth and a smile at lvl 1, even though most people are full of crap.
Then the rest of the player base ends up with wildly ridiculous bosses/game mechanics, and the laziest game mechanic of them all, the one-shot kill.
I can animation cancel though. After a fashion.
I've been convinced for some time that animation canceling is the single biggest difference between our nominal "average" and "high end" players, especially as the game does absolutely nothing to teach players about it (or that it even exists!). If ZOS were interested in deflating the performance gap between these groups (and their behavior indicates that they clearly are not), they would remove animation canceling completely. Effects on streamers and dummy fighters would be dramatic, while the vast majority of the player base wouldn't even know anything had happened.
Instead, they seek to fix the performance gap in dungeons via... one shot kill mechanics.
Some of us cannot do Animation Cancelling at all.. i'm on 300-400 sometimes 600 ping times.. You try doing steady animation canceling in that, hell try getting skills to work fluidly in that..
As an Aussie, I know your pain. Even bar-swapping feels like playing through molasses.
Yup. I've got worse ping than you do from there.... and I live in the lower 48, 40 miles one way from decent broadband.
Sucks to be us.
Same here, and the combat in this game feels absolutely horrible because of it.
I expect to get it sorted eventually. I played WoW for a decade - and the combat keyboarding was developed over all those years. Then RIFT - which was so much like WoW for the combat keyboarding, it was like playing the same game.
I've only about 3.5 months in this game, so things are not working right just yet. I will no doubt find the sweet spot again - I'm just a bit impatient. Not to mention that combat in ESO isn't.... optimized as well as in the other games....
I certainly hope it does, because outside of combat ESO is a really incredible game! I mean of course it is, or a lot of us wouldn't have stuck it out all these years.0 -
Galaen_Frost✭✭✭Why does everyone practice their rotations on a dummy? You know there are real monsters out there to practice on, right? I've heard rumors about them giving you experience and gold. Just watch yourselves, I've also heard they move around and hit back.Wandering the lands of Tamriel, waiting for the hammer to drop.2 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sylvermynx wrote: »Sylvermynx wrote: »The motivation to improve, especially in PvP, is lost when you walk into Cyrodiil and get creamed for months on end, just to slightly improve and get someones health down halfway before getting creamed.
In PvE, I'll bet more than half of the population can't animation cancel. Have never been able to. Yet Zos keeps raising the bar by introducing one shot mechanics and encouraging bringing dps instead of healers to burn before you even see the mechanic.
This "lower the ceiling, raise the floor" mentality you speak of? Haven't seen much of it in actual play. Seems the gap is wider than ever..Sadly, game companies seem to listen to the average forum braggadocio who endlessly complains that everything is too easy, that they can solo content wearing nothing but a loincloth and a smile at lvl 1, even though most people are full of crap.
Then the rest of the player base ends up with wildly ridiculous bosses/game mechanics, and the laziest game mechanic of them all, the one-shot kill.
I can animation cancel though. After a fashion.
I've been convinced for some time that animation canceling is the single biggest difference between our nominal "average" and "high end" players, especially as the game does absolutely nothing to teach players about it (or that it even exists!). If ZOS were interested in deflating the performance gap between these groups (and their behavior indicates that they clearly are not), they would remove animation canceling completely. Effects on streamers and dummy fighters would be dramatic, while the vast majority of the player base wouldn't even know anything had happened.
Instead, they seek to fix the performance gap in dungeons via... one shot kill mechanics.
Some of us cannot do Animation Cancelling at all.. i'm on 300-400 sometimes 600 ping times.. You try doing steady animation canceling in that, hell try getting skills to work fluidly in that..
As an Aussie, I know your pain. Even bar-swapping feels like playing through molasses.
Yup. I've got worse ping than you do from there.... and I live in the lower 48, 40 miles one way from decent broadband.
Sucks to be us.
Same here, and the combat in this game feels absolutely horrible because of it.
I expect to get it sorted eventually. I played WoW for a decade - and the combat keyboarding was developed over all those years. Then RIFT - which was so much like WoW for the combat keyboarding, it was like playing the same game.
I've only about 3.5 months in this game, so things are not working right just yet. I will no doubt find the sweet spot again - I'm just a bit impatient. Not to mention that combat in ESO isn't.... optimized as well as in the other games....
I certainly hope it does, because outside of combat ESO is a really incredible game! I mean of course it is, or a lot of us wouldn't have stuck it out all these years.
Oh so true! I started TES with Arena.... played every game since. ESO was a logical progression. I WILL figure this out. I WILL.1 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nerftheforums wrote: »"Lower the ceiling, raise the floor" has been the motto of balancing for the last year and a half at least. Guess what? The room has become so small that the floor is now looking down to the ceiling.
Skillful play and motivation to improve are so close to being dead that the only thing we need to see the end game's funeral is a couple other patches of buffing potatos and nerfing people with a pair of hands.
Make a bit of space in this room zos, we are suffocating here. Please.
Yep, the ceiling and the floor are totally next to each other...
I was tanking here, so the remaining 58% is the damage of 2 DDs combined...
I think I don't need to link to the 60k parses of the people at the ceiling.6 -
Finviuswe✭✭✭✭Raising the floor is code for 'make something worse'.
If I'm going to be continuing playing a game, I hope for it to be good.2 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Galaen_Frost wrote: »Why does everyone practice their rotations on a dummy? You know there are real monsters out there to practice on, right? I've heard rumors about them giving you experience and gold. Just watch yourselves, I've also heard they move around and hit back.
Two words: muscle memory. It's much easier to pay attention to the mechanics when you dont need to think about your rotation.
Also it's a good way to test sets and rotations, because the "enemy" is always the same and it stands still.
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OMG, in both PvE and PvP there is a wide spread between the best players and the less experienced. Even with moderately experienced players there is huge difference in their dps and I am just referring to stack and burn type fights.
Not even getting into players needing to know mechanics or in PvP having a bit of area awareness.2 -
munster1404✭✭✭✭This is an odd complaint to me; I feel like I've been watching the parse gap between average players and the more competitive set continue to widen, and I certainly haven't seen a decrease in complaints about new vet content being too hard for most players.AbysmalGhul wrote: »This is an odd complaint to me; I feel like I've been watching the parse gap between average players and the more competitive set continue to widen, and I certainly haven't seen a decrease in complaints about new vet content being too hard for most players.
I agree. There is a body of ocean between the average player, decent player, and top player. Most players won't even touch the new dlc vet content. The missus and I have to drag people into the new content and whisper sweet lil lies to them " C'mon, it's easy, we promise
^ This. How the hell can I even get into DLC dungeons and Trials when even vanilla dungeons are a challenge by my standards.2 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sadly, game companies seem to listen to the average forum braggadocio who endlessly complains that everything is too easy, that they can solo content wearing nothing but a loincloth and a smile at lvl 1, even though most people are full of crap.
Then the rest of the player base ends up with wildly ridiculous bosses/game mechanics, and the laziest game mechanic of them all, the one-shot kill.
The funny thing is there is a game out there (only just though) that pandered to this "stop listening to filthy casuals, we want hardcore content" right from the get-go.
It's called Wildstar, and has recently announced it is being closed down.
Listening to the Forum "Hardcore is the only way" fanatics will see this game go the same way.
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.9 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Galaen_Frost wrote: »Why does everyone practice their rotations on a dummy? You know there are real monsters out there to practice on, right? I've heard rumors about them giving you experience and gold. Just watch yourselves, I've also heard they move around and hit back.
To practice rotations, light attack weaving, different combinations. It removes variables that exist in actual combat and allows a person to focus on something such as light attack weaving.
Most real monsters die well before the point that you can reasonably tell if your build has the sustain you'd like.
There are several good reasons to use a target dummy.AbysmalGhul wrote: »kylewwefan wrote: »We must be playing a different game or something. The gap between dummy humpers and average players is bigger than its ever been. Nothing happened to bring good players down. Average are getting made better. That’s kind of a good thing imo.
More damage doesn't equal better player
While I agree, try getting into a dlc vet trial with anything less than 35K-40K sustained dps.
I'm going through the "dummy humpiing" phase now trying to improve my dps so I can do dlc trials.
I spend one hour of my already precious play time practicing a rotation on that dummy every day.
It sucks. Its boring and not fun at all.
People don't want to have to do that for a game.
.
An hour a day?! Jheeze I just do 1 parse when I login to each character, maybe 4-6 minutes a day at most...
It took quite a bit of practice for me to get comfortable with a magblade rotataion. Between the dynamic rotation and light attack weaving it's fairly different from many other MMOs. I have no doubt that it takes some people more practice than others.2 -
ghastley✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Galaen_Frost wrote: »Why does everyone practice their rotations on a dummy? You know there are real monsters out there to practice on, right? I've heard rumors about them giving you experience and gold. Just watch yourselves, I've also heard they move around and hit back.
Exactly for that reason. The dummy isolates the test to a single variable - damage. You don't get the chance to tell yourself "I would have done more, but I had to roll out".
That brings up the question of why there aren't any facilities for isolated testing of dodge, block, heal, buff or any other aspect of combat. It's "damage-only" or "everything at once".
Which may also be part of the overall picture here. The developers have had the same blinkered approach to balance that they have for training.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Galaen_Frost wrote: »Why does everyone practice their rotations on a dummy? You know there are real monsters out there to practice on, right? I've heard rumors about them giving you experience and gold. Just watch yourselves, I've also heard they move around and hit back.
Because some people actually want to, you know, get good. High end DPS rotations can be immensely complicated. Yes it is only one portion of end game PVE content, but it is a vital one. Controlled situations like a target dummy are far and away the best way to isolate and practice that piece of it. It's akin to a musician that wants to play in a symphony but refuses to practice their scales. That way it's second nature when you add in other variables like needing to react to mechanics allowing you to minimize any downtime in your damage.
Since dummies have been released, there has been a noticeable rise in DPS in this game. It's not a coincidence.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on October 4, 2018 3:53PM5 -
SugaComa✭✭✭✭✭DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »ur telling me that my sloads doesnt require skill?
I now run sloads ... My motto used to be
Never stopped to thier level
Now it's
Any dirty set is viable is PvP2 -
OrphanHelgen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭callen4492 wrote: »Please explain what you mean. How has the playing field been leveled so there’s not a gap between the skilled players and unskilled players?
Relequeen, ravager, selene combo and you can be as bad player as you want, doesn't matter. That's my top issue that combo.
Werewolf with bloodmoon, relequeen and kena. Install autoclicker and light attack only. Highest single target in the game. Tell me where the *** is the skill?PC, EU server, Ebonheart Pact
Finally a reason not to play League of Legends1 -
Galaen_Frost✭✭✭So is it the target dummy that makes people "gud" or is it the practice? If all your muscle memory involves standing still then you're not really doing yourself any favors. You need to train your muscle memory to be reactive, not to just stand there and mash buttons. Training bad habits into your muscle memory is worse than being untrained. That's why the military does live fire excercises. It's one thing to shoot at a target, it's another to shoot at a target that's shooting back.Wandering the lands of Tamriel, waiting for the hammer to drop.0
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Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Galaen_Frost wrote: »So is it the target dummy that makes people "gud" or is it the practice? If all your muscle memory involves standing still then you're not really doing yourself any favors. You need to train your muscle memory to be reactive, not to just stand there and mash buttons. Training bad habits into your muscle memory is worse than being untrained. That's why the military does live fire excercises. It's one thing to shoot at a target, it's another to shoot at a target that's shooting back.
But the military doesn't just hand you a rifle as soon as you get off the bus and start shooting at you. They make sure you know how to use the rifle first, which means shooting targets.
That's what the target dummy is for. It lets you hammer out a rotation and get an idea of what your build is capable of doing on it's own under ideal conditions. From there, you can adjust for changing circumstances in a real fight.
Now, some people...well, a lot of people actually...misuse and misunderstand this and think that the target dummy is the be all and end all of DPS. This is what leads to the idea that you need ungodly levels of DPS for vet content. But frankly speaking, a lot of those people wind up dead much of the time in any fight that lasts longer than thirty seconds because their entire strategy depends on burning everything before it has a chance to fight back."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."6 -
Sylosi✭✭✭✭✭If you are playing an MMORPG for "skilled" play, then really you have no idea what skilled play in a video game is.4