Trials design is seriously flawed to its core

deleted008293 · October 2018

Cloudrest made me sick for various reasons but what make me really depressed was the way Welkynar motives could be obtained. Before we go there please look at what would make trials feel a bit more valuable than they are.

Long story short

Trials length must be similar!
Trials difficulty levels should also be very similar!
Trials loot table must also be on par across all trials and it should scale to the trial length and difficulty a lot better.
*If i have to choose between farming jewelry in vAA HM and vHOF HM guess what everyone will choose!
*If I have to farm some quick gold between going for some vAA HM and vCR1 which one will I choose?

Some in depth details about Cloudrest, what ruined the raiding experience for some of us and what can be improved.

Trials design.
- The color theme from Cloudrest is simply sick. Way too much mixture of blue, purple, gray, black colors are simply not good for some eyes.
- Visual FX, mechanics, insane stupid DOT damages, performance values can easily create a serious dizziness to some players, stress players, annoy players, anger players, depress players, tire players, exhaust players, and make people to lose space orientation and focus really quick. Especially for tanks.
- Difficulty levels and bad loot table make certain hard modes to be totally avoided.

Trials length.
Trials such as vAS and vCR hard modes should be redesigned and we should actually be forced to kill all the mobs and mini bosses before engaging into hard modes. Hard modes could be activated into their specific mini bosses chambers, by pushing a button, a lever, enchant a spell and so on... It is really stupid to make raids shorter the harder the difficulty choose'd.

Trials difficulty.
Raids difficulty is still unfairly balanced. I think people should be forced to play through mechanics even since normal trials, so they can be better prepared for veteran content. In order to make trials a bit better balanced one idea that crossed my mind is to re evaluate the reaction times. Those should decrease for easier content and increase the harder difficulty is choose'd.
As an example lets take Cloudrest. Overcharged mechanic from Lightning boss gives us 3s warning, followed by a 10s cooldown period. This should be adjusted as follow:
nCR0,1 - 5s / 5s
nCR2,3 - 4s / 7s
vCR0,1 - 3s / 10s
vCR2,3 - 2s / 12s

Trials loot table.
Certain difficulty levels are totally avoided. To overcome this I think loot table must be redesigned a bit better following these 8 difficulty levels instead of 4 (vcr 0, 1, 2, 3):
CR - solo
CR - Lightning - +1k more gold
CR - Ice - +2k more gold
CR - Fire - +3k more gold
CR - Lightning + Ice - +4k more gold + 1x 5k golden item
CR - Lightning + Fire - +5k more gold + 1x 5k golden item
CR - Ice + Fire - +6k more gold + 1x 5k golden item
CR - Lightning + Ice + Fire - +10k more gold + 1x 5k golden item + 1x 10k golden item (2 in total)
Similar for vAS
AS - solo
AS - Nightblade - +1k more gold + 1x 5k golden item
AS - poison - +2k more gold + 1x 5k golden item
AS - Nightblade + Poison - +5k more gold + 1x 5k golden item + 1x10k golden item (2 in total)
This way certain difficulty levels avoided for certain reasons will now be more appealing to players.

In a similar way... the item drop rates should also be tied a little more closer to certain bosses / difficulty levels. For example the bigger the difficulty the better the chances to obtain an item in a better trait or additional items.

In a similar way the Welkynar fragments drop rate should also be redesigned. It is unfair that some teams could get 0-12 fragments per raid day while others get 20-50 per raid day if not more, simply because the harder the difficulty the better the loot and also the less time spent in.
To overcome this nCR shouldn't drop ANY fragments and vCR loot table should be redesigned as follow:
CR - solo - 1 + 10% chance for a second fragment
CR - Lightning - 2 + 10% chance for 1 or 2 more fragments
CR - Ice - 2 + 20% chance for 1 or 2 more fragments
CR - Fire - 2 + 30% chance for 1 or 2 more fragments
CR - Lightning + Ice - 3 + 20% chance for 2 or 3 more fragments + 5% chance for a whole page
CR - Lightning + Fire - 3 + 30% chance for 2 or 3 more fragments + 10% chance for a whole page
CR - Ice + Fire - 3 + 40% chance for 2 or 3 more fragments + 20% chance for a whole page
CR - Lightning + Ice + Fire - 4 + 50% chance for 2 - 4 more pages + 30% chance for a whole page or book
* % values could be re adjusted. Following was just an example

In case of Asylum Polymorph drop rate should also be redesigned / readjusted. Polymorph should have a small chance to drop in vAS +1 as well and not just in vAS +2 and drop rate overall should be increased to avoid situations where players could make tens of millions by selling polymorphs. One change could be made by making those items BOP / tradeable only in your raid team. Another change could be made by giving players fragments of the polymorph instead of the whole piece in one go.

Similar to the Welkynar motif you should add a motif for Asylum as well. And much later, when Cloudrest will be a subject of past you should revive that raid by adding a polymorph to it.

pod88kk · October 2018

But doesn't having trials of different difficulty lead to progression within groups

deleted008293 · October 2018

That is exactly my point. Looking over vCR most teams I joined totally avoided going for vCR1 with certain bosses such as fire or ice let alone vCR2 farming / progression because there is simply nothing to push players there.

Audens · October 2018

motives

DPShiro · October 2018

No.
If you are doing harder content, aka HM, you should get more rewards.

DjMuscleboy02 · October 2018

Yeah all of these changes are bad. Am totally for no more mini trials though, they're pretty lame.

Bherdani · October 2018

- The color theme: Can't say as I disagree, but every trial has its "look." It's like saying HRC is "too khaki."

- Trials length: Based on the story of the situation that unfolded in Cloudrest, it doesn't make sense to kill Relequen, Galenwe, and Siroria twice. Unless you are proposing we fight undead versions in HM? Or the gryphons themselves?

- Trials difficulty: I can see how this will unfold now...
Player A: "Dammit I died to Overload. Isn't it 5s?"
Player B: "No it's 7s here. My add-on is wigging out and saying 5s, that guy needs to update it."
Player C: "You're both wrong, it's a full 10s in this version."
Player A: "I can't keep track of all these different timers in every difficulty, just make it 10s! Who designed this piece of %$#&!"

El_Borracho · October 2018

So you want to make the game more interesting by making every trial the same. And turn Cloudrest into VMA on steroids.

Pass.

Shawn_PT · October 2018

There are three things that irk me in CR. From a (mine) tank PoV at least.

1- the RNG. If I'm about to get hit with Nocturnal and the central teleport cone happens to spawn on me, there's no way to avoid it. If I dodge, I die to Nocturnal. If I don't dodge, I get teleported into the shadow world resulting in two tanks in and one tank out who's often too busy to handle the main boss. Between rearranging the team and waiting for an opportunity to return to the normal world, the boss has already wrecked the group. And no. The 'walk out of it' doesn't work when I'm standing against the very tight spot in the corner and suddenly I'm smack dab in the center of the red cone, which you don't otherwise see coming because of the massive opaque shape of the boss on your face. Yes I could dodge, but then Nocturnal would kill me. Yes I could run for the hills but then Nocturnal would hit me. There's no avoiding it either way. And the same holds true for the lightning miniboss. When he turns his stunning/knockback cone towards where I'm tanking, it goes much like the above. If I dodge I die to nocturnal. If I stand on it or try to walk out of it I get staggered (no, you cannot block through it, you'll always drop block for a fraction of a second) and insta-gibbed by a Nocturnal to the teeth. Plus there is just so much RNG. Which crystals have orbs. Where the spears drop. Who gets each mechanic. Who gets targeted by the creepers over and over again. It is just. Too. Much.

2- The amount of damage in that trial is truly absurd. So many times our DDs have dropped dead in droves because the boss looked their way for half a second. That's BS. Add that to the overlapping of mechanics and that extremely annoying 85% defile and it's just a pain.

3- The inconsistencies between mechanics. Why does the flare mechanic not happen on the main tank (it can happen but only shortly after role swap), neither does the frost one unless the tank actively picks it up, but the lightning mechanic has no qualms about locking the tank in their bars? Either have tanks be immune to all, or none. Knowing ZOS though they'd probably remove immunity from flare and ice to screw things even more.

But by far the worst is the lack of balance. Being forced to learn a specific class/spec to be able to clear content is silly. MagBlade for vCR or gtfo.

/rant

Facefister · October 2018

Another guys wasted his time with some senseless suggestions and ideas. Learn to play.

robpr · October 2018

Balance them so stamina could do them as confortable as magicka (AS, CR)

But most important: PERFORMANCE. Most infuriating things in trials in general is game performance. You spend time mastering your skill, awareness just to get ruined by fps cut by 60%. Look at SO and HoF especially. Lightning and particles everywhere.

SakuraRush · October 2018

robpr wrote: »

Balance them so stamina could do them as confortable as magicka (AS, CR)

But most important: PERFORMANCE. Most infuriating things in trials in general is game performance. You spend time mastering your skill, awareness just to get ruined by fps cut by 60%. Look at SO and HoF especially. Lightning and particles everywhere.

At least they don't disconnect half the group every five minutes on Xbox anymore.

But you are correct. Game performance is the biggest difficulty factor in the majority of trials it feels.

idk · October 2018

nordmarian wrote: »

Trials length must be similar!
Trials difficulty levels should also be very similar!
Trials loot table must also be on par across all trials and it should scale to the trial length and difficulty a lot better.

I agree there is an issue with trial design but it is not for the reasons above.

Each trial should have it's own story and uniqueness. Difficulty and complexity normally increases with time. The earliest raids in a game are often easier than the later ones.

The issue with raid design in ESO is the designing has gotten lazy recently. vMoL is probably the best trial in ESO. Good mechanics and the final boss has changing mechanics.

vHoF is the next raid and it's final boss, Assembly General, is one of the most boring final boss fights in the game. HM does not even add anything but more HP and more damage taken.

It is downhill from there.

adeptusminor · October 2018

Shawn_PT wrote: »

There are three things that irk me in CR. From a (mine) tank PoV at least.

1- the RNG. If I'm about to get hit with Nocturnal and the central teleport cone happens to spawn on me, there's no way to avoid it. If I dodge, I die to Nocturnal. If I don't dodge, I get teleported into the shadow world resulting in two tanks in and one tank out who's often too busy to handle the main boss. Between rearranging the team and waiting for an opportunity to return to the normal world, the boss has already wrecked the group. And no. The 'walk out of it' doesn't work when I'm standing against the very tight spot in the corner and suddenly I'm smack dab in the center of the red cone, which you don't otherwise see coming because of the massive opaque shape of the boss on your face. Yes I could dodge, but then Nocturnal would kill me. Yes I could run for the hills but then Nocturnal would hit me. There's no avoiding it either way. And the same holds true for the lightning miniboss. When he turns his stunning/knockback cone towards where I'm tanking, it goes much like the above. If I dodge I die to nocturnal. If I stand on it or try to walk out of it I get staggered (no, you cannot block through it, you'll always drop block for a fraction of a second) and insta-gibbed by a Nocturnal to the teeth. Plus there is just so much RNG. Which crystals have orbs. Where the spears drop. Who gets each mechanic. Who gets targeted by the creepers over and over again. It is just. Too. Much.

/rant

I've seen tanks always face her to the left or right successfully instead of facing directly away from the center portal, that way you won't ever have your back to a corner, plus you can see the portal at all times without her big body blocking it. The tanks just call out which way they will face her so the DPS know which side to stand on.

ResTandRespeC · October 2018

Honestly I see nothing wrong with vCR. It is a fair trial. For people who are saying you shouldn't have to learn a specific class for a trial; it is totally possible to do it on other classes. The reason people want to run magblades is to make it easier on their group. This is nothing new. Whenever one class excels it will always be the most desired to run with. Its been sorcs, dks, and nightblades for one time or another and even for other trials there are specific team comps that are more desired.

deleted008293 · October 2018

Length. Try to not understand me wrong. I did not said that trials must be copy pasted. I said the length must be similar. Im referring here to the fact that vCR3 and vAS2 is a literally 15 minutes end boss fight and nothing else. You go straight for the end boss. Why would your group want to progress in a vHOF HM and waste 2h or more when they can just beat some vCR3 or vAS2 few times for a much better loot table and rewards? Im saying that vCR and vAS hard modes are a bit too short and too rewardy comparing to some older trials.
In the case of vAS and vCR consider you are not actually killing the mini bosses but only weakening m. And if you decide to let them live then you can simply go straight for hard modes. OR at least find a way to make the end boss fight to last much longer.

Color theme must be different ofc but vCR is just too bad designed and tiring.

Class imbalance and mechanics not too melee friendly force many teams to consider only magblades for certain trials. Again this must be considered for future raids.

As for loot table and difficulty I would like a more fair scale for motives drops.
I also want a reason to push players to fight different bosses for better loot in case of vCR1 and vCR2 or vAS1. And make players consider farming other trials such as vHOF as well.
* Tell me one single team who are farming vCR1 with the fire boss instead of lightning. I want reasons to farm ALL difficulty levels of a raid and not just one, or all raids and not just some particular ones.

And I would also like to see an increased difficulty the more difficult a raid it is. One other difficulty level in between normal and veteran, which sadly it costs too many resources, or hard modes for all nTrials as well, followed by some small changes in difficulty across n nHM v and vHM, by increasing the damage more and more, health bars, mechanics speed or occurrence, adds and bosses speed etc.
What Im trying to say is that the damage from vCR0 is same as the damage you get from vCR3 and in my opinion it should be lower in vCR0 and increasingly until vCR3. So it will be more forgiveable for new teams and less forgiveable for the end game teams.

Shawn_PT · October 2018

adeptusminor wrote: »

Shawn_PT wrote: »

There are three things that irk me in CR. From a (mine) tank PoV at least.

1- the RNG. If I'm about to get hit with Nocturnal and the central teleport cone happens to spawn on me, there's no way to avoid it. If I dodge, I die to Nocturnal. If I don't dodge, I get teleported into the shadow world resulting in two tanks in and one tank out who's often too busy to handle the main boss. Between rearranging the team and waiting for an opportunity to return to the normal world, the boss has already wrecked the group. And no. The 'walk out of it' doesn't work when I'm standing against the very tight spot in the corner and suddenly I'm smack dab in the center of the red cone, which you don't otherwise see coming because of the massive opaque shape of the boss on your face. Yes I could dodge, but then Nocturnal would kill me. Yes I could run for the hills but then Nocturnal would hit me. There's no avoiding it either way. And the same holds true for the lightning miniboss. When he turns his stunning/knockback cone towards where I'm tanking, it goes much like the above. If I dodge I die to nocturnal. If I stand on it or try to walk out of it I get staggered (no, you cannot block through it, you'll always drop block for a fraction of a second) and insta-gibbed by a Nocturnal to the teeth. Plus there is just so much RNG. Which crystals have orbs. Where the spears drop. Who gets each mechanic. Who gets targeted by the creepers over and over again. It is just. Too. Much.

/rant

I've seen tanks always face her to the left or right successfully instead of facing directly away from the center portal, that way you won't ever have your back to a corner, plus you can see the portal at all times without her big body blocking it. The tanks just call out which way they will face her so the DPS know which side to stand on.

I have thought of this. However I just got told 'other groups tank them like that, you'll tank them like that.' Besides there's always a few who get zapped when I have to step to the side (always the same side btw unless things are hairy) while kiting the crushing.

deleted008293 · October 2018

On a side note I would also like mini hard modes for every single trial boss if that is possible.
As for vHOF HM, I think they need to add some additional mechanics for that boss

code65536 · October 2018

nordmarian wrote: »

Why would your group want to progress in a vHOF HM and waste 2h or more when they can just beat some vCR3 or vAS2 few times for a much better loot table and rewards?

If your group takes 2 hours to beat vHoF HM, they are not going to be able to beat vCR +3 or vAS +2.

nordmarian wrote: »

OR at least find a way to make the end boss fight to last much longer.

LOL. They already do last much longer than other trial endbosses. A Pad 7 Rakkhat HM is only about 5 minutes. It's even shorter for groups that do shorter-pad burns.

The problem with the mini-trials isn't that they are short. It's that there isn't much content (and as a result of that, they are short). Padding them out artificially doesn't make them more fun or interesting because it doesn't add content. It just pads them out artificially. Your suggestions are, frankly, terrible--better to leave the trial short than to pad it out with the kinds of suggestions you are throwing around.

nordmarian wrote: »

Color theme must be different ofc but vCR is just too bad designed and tiring.

Are you seriously going to complain about this?

Fine, then I'll say that after two overly "metallic" trials, I kind of like Cloudrest's look and feel.

nordmarian wrote: »

Class imbalance and mechanics not too melee friendly force many teams to consider only magblades for certain trials. Again this must be considered for future raids.

People have been saying this since the PTS.

nordmarian wrote: »

As for loot table and difficulty I would like a more fair scale for motives drops.
I also want a reason to push players to fight different bosses for better loot in case of vCR1 and vCR2 or vAS1. And make players consider farming other trials such as vHOF as well.
* Tell me one single team who are farming vCR1 with the fire boss instead of lightning. I want reasons to farm ALL difficulty levels of a raid and not just one, or all raids and not just some particular ones.

The intermediate difficulties are just stepping stones for groups reaching for HM. The motivation for doing +Fire is because you need to be good at it if you ever hope to do +3, which is where the real rewards are. Yes, +Fire is harder than the others. Who cares? Why does it matter?

nordmarian wrote: »

What Im trying to say is that the damage from vCR0 is same as the damage you get from vCR3 and in my opinion it should be lower in vCR0 and increasingly until vCR3. So it will be more forgiveable for new teams and less forgiveable for the end game teams.

You... do know that there is a lot more Malicious Strike and Dark Drain damage in +3, right?

DanteYoda · October 2018

Don't do any like me.

ArchMikem · October 2018

Choose'd isn't a word.

Nifty2g · October 2018

nordmarian wrote: »

Class imbalance and mechanics not too melee friendly force many teams to consider only magblades for certain trials. Again this must be considered for future raids.

That's not why people use them, the reason people use nightblades is because of how safe it is with the self healing like crazy and all the off healing they offer. The trials are all melee friendly people swap to nightblades because it's just more efficient. And with their nerf future raids will likely have more than nightblades I expect to see a lot of class diversity next patch with all the changes going through.

FR0STDEE · October 2018

I personally hate the last 2 trials that Zos has delivered. Bring back designs like AA, SA, MOL and HRC.