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Razor Shot should be bleed damage, not poison
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Pastas✭✭✭The ability Scatter Shot is already affected by your target's mitigation, and therefore the DoT is damage derived from an attack that has already had its damage reduced. Making this DoT poison damage is having its damage mitigated not once, but twice. Because of this I believe it needs to go back to being bleed damage.
NOWARNINGThis post may Include horrible gramatical and orthographic errorsRead on your own riskAD
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Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way
Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Stats that boost draining shot:
Mighty - Increases Damage
Precise Strikes - Increases Critical Damage
Piercing - Increases Physical Penetration
Master-At-Arms - Increases Damage
Shattering Blows - Increases Damage against Damage Shields
Stats the reduce:
hardy
crit resistance
physical resistance
ironclad
For this set, it would add Thaumaturge, but only to the DOT. He is saying this works for all DOTS because they hit you with a direct dmg component which is reduced by multiple sources of mitigation. This is just how the game works.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
kitty79✭✭✭✭(sorry for my english i am french) well with bleed it was very interesting, i was really wating for T_T
but i can understand that with the bleed it will be like the sload.
now the problem is that we have a physical skill who make a poison dot.... if it dont change why dont change the morph of scatter shot, to havo one whit poison damage (to go with the bow) and one with physical damage?
a full poison skill it's ok, but a mix physical + poison no!
snipe can go poison or phisical, why dont do the same with scatter shot? and it will be ok with the new bow
snipe forever ^_^
-maîtresse de pêche
-héroïne de Tamriel
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-grande maîtresse artisane0 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The Dot is applied based on the mitigation. Then the dot is further mitigated. This has nothing to do with CP or with skills that have both a direct damage portion and a dot portion.usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Stats that boost draining shot:
Mighty - Increases Damage
Precise Strikes - Increases Critical Damage
Piercing - Increases Physical Penetration
Master-At-Arms - Increases Damage
Shattering Blows - Increases Damage against Damage Shields
Stats the reduce:
hardy
crit resistance
physical resistance
ironclad
For this set, it would add Thaumaturge, but only to the DOT. He is saying this works for all DOTS because they hit you with a direct dmg component which is reduced by multiple sources of mitigation. This is just how the game works.
If I apply poison injection, it has both a direct damage portion and a dot. But they are mitigated separately, the dot from Poison Injection does not increase or decrease based on how much damage the initial dirwxt damage portion deals.
For Razor Shot this is not true. For Razor Shot the Dot is BASED on the direct damage portion. So if you have say 15% damage reduction from physical resistance and you block the Draining Shot for another 50% mitigated. Lets say the Draining Shot deals 3k before mitigation, after mitigation it deals 1.3k. Now 50% of that is 650 damage, so you can expect a Dot for 650 damage. However each tick of that dot is now mitigated by your resistances. So instead of 650 you get 550 and that isn't even considering CP, high resistance or other forms of mitigation.
TLDR: being mitigated twice by the same source isn't the same as having multiple CP stars that mitigate. This set is getting mitigated by resistances and the Hardy CP star twice, it is being mitigated by Ironclad and crit resist CP once.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »
The Dot is applied based on the mitigation. Then the dot is further mitigated. This has nothing to do with CP or with skills that have both a direct damage portion and a dot portion.usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Stats that boost draining shot:
Mighty - Increases Damage
Precise Strikes - Increases Critical Damage
Piercing - Increases Physical Penetration
Master-At-Arms - Increases Damage
Shattering Blows - Increases Damage against Damage Shields
Stats the reduce:
hardy
crit resistance
physical resistance
ironclad
For this set, it would add Thaumaturge, but only to the DOT. He is saying this works for all DOTS because they hit you with a direct dmg component which is reduced by multiple sources of mitigation. This is just how the game works.
If I apply poison injection, it has both a direct damage portion and a dot. But they are mitigated separately, the dot from Poison Injection does not increase or decrease based on how much damage the initial dirwxt damage portion deals.
For Razor Shot this is not true. For Razor Shot the Dot is BASED on the direct damage portion. So if you have say 15% damage reduction from physical resistance and you block the Draining Shot for another 50% mitigated. Lets say the Draining Shot deals 3k before mitigation, after mitigation it deals 1.3k. Now 50% of that is 650 damage, so you can expect a Dot for 650 damage. However each tick of that dot is now mitigated by your resistances. So instead of 650 you get 550 and that isn't even considering CP, high resistance or other forms of mitigation.
TLDR: being mitigated twice by the same source isn't the same as having multiple CP stars that mitigate. This set is getting mitigated by resistances and the Hardy CP star twice, it is being mitigated by Ironclad and crit resist CP once.
This remind me the double nerf strife used to have in PvP whe BS came out: Reduction based on dmg done and also reduction based on healing done.
The bleed was OKSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »
The Dot is applied based on the mitigation. Then the dot is further mitigated. This has nothing to do with CP or with skills that have both a direct damage portion and a dot portion.usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Stats that boost draining shot:
Mighty - Increases Damage
Precise Strikes - Increases Critical Damage
Piercing - Increases Physical Penetration
Master-At-Arms - Increases Damage
Shattering Blows - Increases Damage against Damage Shields
Stats the reduce:
hardy
crit resistance
physical resistance
ironclad
For this set, it would add Thaumaturge, but only to the DOT. He is saying this works for all DOTS because they hit you with a direct dmg component which is reduced by multiple sources of mitigation. This is just how the game works.
If I apply poison injection, it has both a direct damage portion and a dot. But they are mitigated separately, the dot from Poison Injection does not increase or decrease based on how much damage the initial dirwxt damage portion deals.
For Razor Shot this is not true. For Razor Shot the Dot is BASED on the direct damage portion. So if you have say 15% damage reduction from physical resistance and you block the Draining Shot for another 50% mitigated. Lets say the Draining Shot deals 3k before mitigation, after mitigation it deals 1.3k. Now 50% of that is 650 damage, so you can expect a Dot for 650 damage. However each tick of that dot is now mitigated by your resistances. So instead of 650 you get 550 and that isn't even considering CP, high resistance or other forms of mitigation.
TLDR: being mitigated twice by the same source isn't the same as having multiple CP stars that mitigate. This set is getting mitigated by resistances and the Hardy CP star twice, it is being mitigated by Ironclad and crit resist CP once.
Ok I see. Still doesn't give a valid reason why it should ignore mitigation mechanics. For example, 2h/DW bleeds proc off melee damage, the melee damage is reduced by direct and then the bleed is reduced again.
Another instance would be double dot poisons; procs off LA/weapon skills which are reduced by one type of mitigation and then by another.
It seems the real problem is the percentage off one attack creating a new attack, so why doesn't the set (and other feedback) suggest to just make it a raw damage value that can scale/mitigate? Seem like this is the correct fix, not making it a bleed nor crit.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »
The Dot is applied based on the mitigation. Then the dot is further mitigated. This has nothing to do with CP or with skills that have both a direct damage portion and a dot portion.usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Stats that boost draining shot:
Mighty - Increases Damage
Precise Strikes - Increases Critical Damage
Piercing - Increases Physical Penetration
Master-At-Arms - Increases Damage
Shattering Blows - Increases Damage against Damage Shields
Stats the reduce:
hardy
crit resistance
physical resistance
ironclad
For this set, it would add Thaumaturge, but only to the DOT. He is saying this works for all DOTS because they hit you with a direct dmg component which is reduced by multiple sources of mitigation. This is just how the game works.
If I apply poison injection, it has both a direct damage portion and a dot. But they are mitigated separately, the dot from Poison Injection does not increase or decrease based on how much damage the initial dirwxt damage portion deals.
For Razor Shot this is not true. For Razor Shot the Dot is BASED on the direct damage portion. So if you have say 15% damage reduction from physical resistance and you block the Draining Shot for another 50% mitigated. Lets say the Draining Shot deals 3k before mitigation, after mitigation it deals 1.3k. Now 50% of that is 650 damage, so you can expect a Dot for 650 damage. However each tick of that dot is now mitigated by your resistances. So instead of 650 you get 550 and that isn't even considering CP, high resistance or other forms of mitigation.
TLDR: being mitigated twice by the same source isn't the same as having multiple CP stars that mitigate. This set is getting mitigated by resistances and the Hardy CP star twice, it is being mitigated by Ironclad and crit resist CP once.
Ok I see. Still doesn't give a valid reason why it should ignore mitigation mechanics. For example, 2h/DW bleeds proc off melee damage, the melee damage is reduced by direct and then the bleed is reduced again.
Another instance would be double dot poisons; procs off LA/weapon skills which are reduced by one type of mitigation and then by another.
It seems the real problem is the percentage off one attack creating a new attack, so why doesn't the set (and other feedback) suggest to just make it a raw damage value that can scale/mitigate? Seem like this is the correct fix, not making it a bleed nor crit.
Proccing and scaling off the percentage of damage dealt is what people mean by being mitigated twice. And yes giving it a flat value would be the simplest fix.
ZOS for whatever reason wants it to scale somewhat. And they want it for PVE.Edited by Toc de Malsvi on October 3, 2018 3:46PMLegendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭My take on it in PVE is that while it performs kind of close to the Master Bow at max range. It appears to be much worse at mid to short range. The Master bow + Agility jewelry is comparable with a 5 set for single target.
Why would I want a bow that is only comparable to other options when used at max range? I like the idea of another ranged dot through this weapon, but it really needs to be stronger for it to be desirable.
I haven't tested it with Morag Tong, I'll try that and see how it feels.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Minno
Thats also the argument of the thread. Because Draining Shot is already being mitigated, a dot based on a percentage of that mitigated damage should be a bleed. Which I have to agree with if they stick with this mechanism for the dot scaling.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..1 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Backlash, Forceful, Reverse Slice, DK Wings, Defensive Posture, Spell Wall.0331
06022 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Toc de Malsvi wrote: »
The Dot is applied based on the mitigation. Then the dot is further mitigated. This has nothing to do with CP or with skills that have both a direct damage portion and a dot portion.usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Stats that boost draining shot:
Mighty - Increases Damage
Precise Strikes - Increases Critical Damage
Piercing - Increases Physical Penetration
Master-At-Arms - Increases Damage
Shattering Blows - Increases Damage against Damage Shields
Stats the reduce:
hardy
crit resistance
physical resistance
ironclad
For this set, it would add Thaumaturge, but only to the DOT. He is saying this works for all DOTS because they hit you with a direct dmg component which is reduced by multiple sources of mitigation. This is just how the game works.
If I apply poison injection, it has both a direct damage portion and a dot. But they are mitigated separately, the dot from Poison Injection does not increase or decrease based on how much damage the initial dirwxt damage portion deals.
For Razor Shot this is not true. For Razor Shot the Dot is BASED on the direct damage portion. So if you have say 15% damage reduction from physical resistance and you block the Draining Shot for another 50% mitigated. Lets say the Draining Shot deals 3k before mitigation, after mitigation it deals 1.3k. Now 50% of that is 650 damage, so you can expect a Dot for 650 damage. However each tick of that dot is now mitigated by your resistances. So instead of 650 you get 550 and that isn't even considering CP, high resistance or other forms of mitigation.
TLDR: being mitigated twice by the same source isn't the same as having multiple CP stars that mitigate. This set is getting mitigated by resistances and the Hardy CP star twice, it is being mitigated by Ironclad and crit resist CP once.
Ok I see. Still doesn't give a valid reason why it should ignore mitigation mechanics. For example, 2h/DW bleeds proc off melee damage, the melee damage is reduced by direct and then the bleed is reduced again.
Another instance would be double dot poisons; procs off LA/weapon skills which are reduced by one type of mitigation and then by another.
It seems the real problem is the percentage off one attack creating a new attack, so why doesn't the set (and other feedback) suggest to just make it a raw damage value that can scale/mitigate? Seem like this is the correct fix, not making it a bleed nor crit.
Proccing and scaling off the percentage of damage dealt is what people mean by being mitigated twice. And yes giving it a flat value would be the simplest fix.
ZOS for whatever reason wants it to scale somewhat. And they want it for PVE.
Yea that seems to be the way to go I think.
Regarding if it's for PVE or PVP, having it intended for PVE with a crit bonus and dmg that doesn't crit but procs off a cc ability seems counter productive. Would be better if it was a smaller dmg but could crit, if that was the intended area of play.
Either way doesn't matter. I think we both agree it should be a flat dmg number .Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agreed, bow is already oversaturated with poison damage: Lethal Arrow (guaranteed Poisoned status effect proc), Poison Injection, Acid Spray... this set dealing poison damage doesn't really bring anything new to the table where as bleed damage could've helped bow builds against high mitigation tanks (against which they struggle a lot).
Yeah like every other bleed, oblivion dmg bs. lol0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Toc de Malsvi wrote: »
The Dot is applied based on the mitigation. Then the dot is further mitigated. This has nothing to do with CP or with skills that have both a direct damage portion and a dot portion.usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Stats that boost draining shot:
Mighty - Increases Damage
Precise Strikes - Increases Critical Damage
Piercing - Increases Physical Penetration
Master-At-Arms - Increases Damage
Shattering Blows - Increases Damage against Damage Shields
Stats the reduce:
hardy
crit resistance
physical resistance
ironclad
For this set, it would add Thaumaturge, but only to the DOT. He is saying this works for all DOTS because they hit you with a direct dmg component which is reduced by multiple sources of mitigation. This is just how the game works.
If I apply poison injection, it has both a direct damage portion and a dot. But they are mitigated separately, the dot from Poison Injection does not increase or decrease based on how much damage the initial dirwxt damage portion deals.
For Razor Shot this is not true. For Razor Shot the Dot is BASED on the direct damage portion. So if you have say 15% damage reduction from physical resistance and you block the Draining Shot for another 50% mitigated. Lets say the Draining Shot deals 3k before mitigation, after mitigation it deals 1.3k. Now 50% of that is 650 damage, so you can expect a Dot for 650 damage. However each tick of that dot is now mitigated by your resistances. So instead of 650 you get 550 and that isn't even considering CP, high resistance or other forms of mitigation.
TLDR: being mitigated twice by the same source isn't the same as having multiple CP stars that mitigate. This set is getting mitigated by resistances and the Hardy CP star twice, it is being mitigated by Ironclad and crit resist CP once.
Ok I see. Still doesn't give a valid reason why it should ignore mitigation mechanics. For example, 2h/DW bleeds proc off melee damage, the melee damage is reduced by direct and then the bleed is reduced again.
Another instance would be double dot poisons; procs off LA/weapon skills which are reduced by one type of mitigation and then by another.
It seems the real problem is the percentage off one attack creating a new attack, so why doesn't the set (and other feedback) suggest to just make it a raw damage value that can scale/mitigate? Seem like this is the correct fix, not making it a bleed nor crit.
Proccing and scaling off the percentage of damage dealt is what people mean by being mitigated twice. And yes giving it a flat value would be the simplest fix.
ZOS for whatever reason wants it to scale somewhat. And they want it for PVE.
Isn't the masters dw proc often critizied for given a flat value? Or every proc set?1 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Toc de Malsvi wrote: »
The Dot is applied based on the mitigation. Then the dot is further mitigated. This has nothing to do with CP or with skills that have both a direct damage portion and a dot portion.usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Stats that boost draining shot:
Mighty - Increases Damage
Precise Strikes - Increases Critical Damage
Piercing - Increases Physical Penetration
Master-At-Arms - Increases Damage
Shattering Blows - Increases Damage against Damage Shields
Stats the reduce:
hardy
crit resistance
physical resistance
ironclad
For this set, it would add Thaumaturge, but only to the DOT. He is saying this works for all DOTS because they hit you with a direct dmg component which is reduced by multiple sources of mitigation. This is just how the game works.
If I apply poison injection, it has both a direct damage portion and a dot. But they are mitigated separately, the dot from Poison Injection does not increase or decrease based on how much damage the initial dirwxt damage portion deals.
For Razor Shot this is not true. For Razor Shot the Dot is BASED on the direct damage portion. So if you have say 15% damage reduction from physical resistance and you block the Draining Shot for another 50% mitigated. Lets say the Draining Shot deals 3k before mitigation, after mitigation it deals 1.3k. Now 50% of that is 650 damage, so you can expect a Dot for 650 damage. However each tick of that dot is now mitigated by your resistances. So instead of 650 you get 550 and that isn't even considering CP, high resistance or other forms of mitigation.
TLDR: being mitigated twice by the same source isn't the same as having multiple CP stars that mitigate. This set is getting mitigated by resistances and the Hardy CP star twice, it is being mitigated by Ironclad and crit resist CP once.
Ok I see. Still doesn't give a valid reason why it should ignore mitigation mechanics. For example, 2h/DW bleeds proc off melee damage, the melee damage is reduced by direct and then the bleed is reduced again.
Another instance would be double dot poisons; procs off LA/weapon skills which are reduced by one type of mitigation and then by another.
It seems the real problem is the percentage off one attack creating a new attack, so why doesn't the set (and other feedback) suggest to just make it a raw damage value that can scale/mitigate? Seem like this is the correct fix, not making it a bleed nor crit.
Proccing and scaling off the percentage of damage dealt is what people mean by being mitigated twice. And yes giving it a flat value would be the simplest fix.
ZOS for whatever reason wants it to scale somewhat. And they want it for PVE.
Isn't the masters dw proc often critizied for given a flat value? Or every proc set?
Riiight...
So lets make the one weapon modifying a skill virtually no one uses have a unique mechanic that makes it worse than other comparable weapons/sets. I'm sure everyone will drop their VMA/VDSA/Asylum bows for it.
I mean yeah people do offer that critizism, but unless all proc sets are going to be changed to match this I don't reall see your point. Beyond that other proc sets are not tied to one specific skill, the only comparison are these unique weapon sets.Edited by Toc de Malsvi on October 3, 2018 4:58PMLegendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Backlash, Forceful, Reverse Slice, DK Wings, Defensive Posture, Spell Wall.
So outside Backlash literally nothing used to deal damage to primary target And even Backlash is wonky because the ability itself is not mitigated twice.
I think you are grasping at straws because you saw word bleedsEdited by SodanTok on October 3, 2018 5:08PM2 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Backlash, Forceful, Reverse Slice, DK Wings, Defensive Posture, Spell Wall.
So outside Backlash literally nothing used to deal damage to primary target And even Backlash is wonky because the ability itself is not mitigated twice.
I think you are grasping at straws because you saw word bleeds
My argument isn't incredibly strong, but it is sound and it is not unprecedent - subsequent damage based on the damage being dealt typically gets charged double from resistances.
I see no reason as to why this would be any different.0331
06021 -
Finedaible✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't understand the thought process that goes behind any of the changes here.
The only problem i could see with the first version of Razor Shot was the "deals 40% of your initial attack", which could result in wildly varying bleed values depending on mitigation, penetration, buffs, debuffs, and crit. All they had to do was adjust the bleed value to something more static like "deals x damage as bleed damage over y seconds"
As it is now, the name of the set doesn't match what it actually does. FOUR out of six Bow skills already have poison on them (Lethal Arrow, Acid Spray, Poison Injection, Toxic Barrage) and with this set a fifth skill will have... more poison... and most players use poison enchants anyway. Surely we can be more creative than this?1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Backlash, Forceful, Reverse Slice, DK Wings, Defensive Posture, Spell Wall.
So outside Backlash literally nothing used to deal damage to primary target And even Backlash is wonky because the ability itself is not mitigated twice.
I think you are grasping at straws because you saw word bleeds
My argument isn't incredibly strong, but it is sound and it is not unprecedent - subsequent damage based on the damage being dealt typically gets charged double from resistances.
I see no reason as to why this would be any different.
Because it is not a reflect and deals no aoe damage, nor is it a skill, differentiating it from anything you listed.
It would be a bleed that can be dodged and even takes resistances/block into account for its damage dealt. I don't get how this is overpowered honestly.1 -
MaselClass RepresentativeI tested it in duels when it was bleed and the damage was pitiful, and now it's going to be even worse. These blackrose weapons are a disappointment...PC EU
All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA1 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Backlash, Forceful, Reverse Slice, DK Wings, Defensive Posture, Spell Wall.
So outside Backlash literally nothing used to deal damage to primary target And even Backlash is wonky because the ability itself is not mitigated twice.
I think you are grasping at straws because you saw word bleeds
My argument isn't incredibly strong, but it is sound and it is not unprecedent - subsequent damage based on the damage being dealt typically gets charged double from resistances.
I see no reason as to why this would be any different.
Because it is not a reflect and deals no aoe damage, nor is it a skill, differentiating it from anything you listed.
It would be a bleed that can be dodged and even takes resistances/block into account for its damage dealt. I don't get how this is overpowered honestly.
It's not that.
It's calculating it's damage on damage already done. Skills that do that are charged twice and I haven't a found an instance where it's not.0331
06020 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Backlash, Forceful, Reverse Slice, DK Wings, Defensive Posture, Spell Wall.
So outside Backlash literally nothing used to deal damage to primary target And even Backlash is wonky because the ability itself is not mitigated twice.
I think you are grasping at straws because you saw word bleeds
My argument isn't incredibly strong, but it is sound and it is not unprecedent - subsequent damage based on the damage being dealt typically gets charged double from resistances.
I see no reason as to why this would be any different.
Because it is not a reflect and deals no aoe damage, nor is it a skill, differentiating it from anything you listed.
It would be a bleed that can be dodged and even takes resistances/block into account for its damage dealt. I don't get how this is overpowered honestly.
It's not that.
It's calculating it's damage on damage already done. Skillsthat do that are charged twice and I haven't a found an instance where it's not.
Razor shot is not a skill.2 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Backlash, Forceful, Reverse Slice, DK Wings, Defensive Posture, Spell Wall.
So outside Backlash literally nothing used to deal damage to primary target And even Backlash is wonky because the ability itself is not mitigated twice.
I think you are grasping at straws because you saw word bleeds
My argument isn't incredibly strong, but it is sound and it is not unprecedent - subsequent damage based on the damage being dealt typically gets charged double from resistances.
I see no reason as to why this would be any different.
Because it is not a reflect and deals no aoe damage, nor is it a skill, differentiating it from anything you listed.
It would be a bleed that can be dodged and even takes resistances/block into account for its damage dealt. I don't get how this is overpowered honestly.
It's not that.
It's calculating it's damage on damage already done. Skillsthat do that are charged twice and I haven't a found an instance where it's not.
Razor shot is not a skill.
And it's not a flat damage proc, either. We have no instances of % based damage on armor that's a secondary instance of damage based on your damage being done.0331
06020 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Backlash, Forceful, Reverse Slice, DK Wings, Defensive Posture, Spell Wall.
So outside Backlash literally nothing used to deal damage to primary target And even Backlash is wonky because the ability itself is not mitigated twice.
I think you are grasping at straws because you saw word bleeds
My argument isn't incredibly strong, but it is sound and it is not unprecedent - subsequent damage based on the damage being dealt typically gets charged double from resistances.
I see no reason as to why this would be any different.
Because it is not a reflect and deals no aoe damage, nor is it a skill, differentiating it from anything you listed.
It would be a bleed that can be dodged and even takes resistances/block into account for its damage dealt. I don't get how this is overpowered honestly.
It's not that.
It's calculating it's damage on damage already done. Skillsthat do that are charged twice and I haven't a found an instance where it's not.
Razor shot is not a skill.
And it's not a flat damage proc, either. We have no instances of % based damage on armor that's a secondary instance of damage based on your damage being done.
Correct, which is why your original statement of precedent confused me.
As it stands, the ability is...not that useful in pve or pvp. A flat proc value as a bleed would be fine, as would the original state of the ability. The perspective I've arrived at however, says this weapon effect is underperforming and needs a change.0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ok, I'm gonna explain it again, so some of the guys who are afraid of another OP bleed can understand (it's a bow for Talos' sake, no twin blade and blunt here):
1- Scatter Tooltip at 10K dmg is halved by BS (so now it hits for 5k)
2- Then the mitigation reduces that dmg again around a 30% (so now it hits for 3.5K)
3- The sets does 40% of the dmg done in 3 ticks of 4 seconds, for 1.4k each. The duration is increased by distance
4- Now, with the poison dmg change, each tick will be again halved by BS and then by mitigation so 1.4k becomes 700 and then 490.
Even with a 20k tooltip in scatter (highly improbable, on a bow it will never go over 15K) each tick won't be as powerful as another DoT ticks (such as SA ticks).
The easiest solution was to keep the bleed, but reducing the dmg from 40% to 30%. The change has reduced to less than a 5% of the tooltip if we consider BS and mitigation.
And ZoS wants us to buy that.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique3 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.
No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.
I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.
Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.
All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.
Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.
There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.
Such as?
Backlash, Forceful, Reverse Slice, DK Wings, Defensive Posture, Spell Wall.
So outside Backlash literally nothing used to deal damage to primary target And even Backlash is wonky because the ability itself is not mitigated twice.
I think you are grasping at straws because you saw word bleeds
My argument isn't incredibly strong, but it is sound and it is not unprecedent - subsequent damage based on the damage being dealt typically gets charged double from resistances.
I see no reason as to why this would be any different.
Because it is not a reflect and deals no aoe damage, nor is it a skill, differentiating it from anything you listed.
It would be a bleed that can be dodged and even takes resistances/block into account for its damage dealt. I don't get how this is overpowered honestly.
It's not that.
It's calculating it's damage on damage already done. Skillsthat do that are charged twice and I haven't a found an instance where it's not.
Razor shot is not a skill.
And it's not a flat damage proc, either. We have no instances of % based damage on armor that's a secondary instance of damage based on your damage being done.
Correct, which is why your original statement of precedent confused me.
As it stands, the ability is...not that useful in pve or pvp. A flat proc value as a bleed would be fine, as would the original state of the ability. The perspective I've arrived at however, says this weapon effect is underperforming and needs a change.
I don't disagree. I do not believe making it a bleed that scales directly with the skills damage is appropriate. If that were the case then the BR 2H should also do one big ass tick of bleed damage so it's not mitigated twice.0331
06020 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ok, I'm gonna explain it again, so some of the guys who are afraid of another OP bleed can understand (it's a bow for Talos' sake, no twin blade and blunt here):
1- Scatter Tooltip at 10K dmg is halved by BS (so now it hits for 5k)
2- Then the mitigation reduces that dmg again around a 30% (so now it hits for 3.5K)
3- The sets does 40% of the dmg done in 3 ticks of 4 seconds, for 1.4k each. The duration is increased by distance
4- Now, with the poison dmg change, each tick will be again halved by BS and then by mitigation so 1.4k becomes 700 and then 490.
Even with a 20k tooltip in scatter (highly improbable, on a bow it will never go over 15K) each tick won't be as powerful as another DoT ticks (such as SA ticks).
The easiest solution was to keep the bleed, but reducing the dmg from 40% to 30%. The change has reduced to less than a 5% of the tooltip if we consider BS and mitigation.
And ZoS wants us to buy that.
Or, conversely, you could just give it a flat value.0331
06020 -
Zeromaz✭✭✭✭Pretty poor change, i feel. I can also see why folks don’t want more bleed or oblivion damage in-game. I would suggest to just make it simple and stop with the unneeded variables. Flat 6 second dot that does the tooltip of your scatter shot. That way it does great dmg in pve and is reduced in pvp to your BSed scatter shot. Simple, decent, and not much to complain about3 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »Ok, I'm gonna explain it again, so some of the guys who are afraid of another OP bleed can understand (it's a bow for Talos' sake, no twin blade and blunt here):
1- Scatter Tooltip at 10K dmg is halved by BS (so now it hits for 5k)
2- Then the mitigation reduces that dmg again around a 30% (so now it hits for 3.5K)
3- The sets does 40% of the dmg done in 3 ticks of 4 seconds, for 1.4k each. The duration is increased by distance
4- Now, with the poison dmg change, each tick will be again halved by BS and then by mitigation so 1.4k becomes 700 and then 490.
Even with a 20k tooltip in scatter (highly improbable, on a bow it will never go over 15K) each tick won't be as powerful as another DoT ticks (such as SA ticks).
The easiest solution was to keep the bleed, but reducing the dmg from 40% to 30%. The change has reduced to less than a 5% of the tooltip if we consider BS and mitigation.
And ZoS wants us to buy that.
Or, conversely, you could just give it a flat value.
At this point I think I would prefer that. This weapon went from okay to not worth slotting.3 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »Ok, I'm gonna explain it again, so some of the guys who are afraid of another OP bleed can understand (it's a bow for Talos' sake, no twin blade and blunt here):
1- Scatter Tooltip at 10K dmg is halved by BS (so now it hits for 5k)
2- Then the mitigation reduces that dmg again around a 30% (so now it hits for 3.5K)
3- The sets does 40% of the dmg done in 3 ticks of 4 seconds, for 1.4k each. The duration is increased by distance
4- Now, with the poison dmg change, each tick will be again halved by BS and then by mitigation so 1.4k becomes 700 and then 490.
Even with a 20k tooltip in scatter (highly improbable, on a bow it will never go over 15K) each tick won't be as powerful as another DoT ticks (such as SA ticks).
The easiest solution was to keep the bleed, but reducing the dmg from 40% to 30%. The change has reduced to less than a 5% of the tooltip if we consider BS and mitigation.
And ZoS wants us to buy that.
Or, conversely, you could just give it a flat value.
That's another good point, but it won't encourage using this set.
It is not my first choice if running bow to start with. Scatter, even being a 28 mts skill is not a good skill. Yes, it was somewhat fun in a build that played "melee bow" having a natural stam gap closer and stam spammable (stamblade), but nothing else. Though it could have some use if paired with Eagle eye and Marksman,
TBH, any archer could do more dmg with the WoF proc, which is quite reliable and do not depends on one skill.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Hey they got to justify the new dk passive right?
except it doesn't even make any difference in this case. I'm pretty sure they stopping giving a duck about stamDk long time ago.
This change is done probably because they didn't want to add another bleed to the game.Edited by Ragnarock41 on October 3, 2018 6:53PM0