Razor Shot should be bleed damage, not poison

Strider__Roshin

The ability Scatter Shot is already affected by your target's mitigation, and therefore the DoT is damage derived from an attack that has already had its damage reduced. Making this DoT poison damage is having its damage mitigated not once, but twice. Because of this I believe it needs to go back to being bleed damage.

Shinshadow

How are you gonna name something RAZOR SHOT, and make it do poison instead of bleed?

brandonv516

Shinshadow wrote: »

How are you gonna name something RAZOR SHOT, and make it do poison instead of bleed?

The same way Earthgore has a Blood effect and Bloodspawn has an Earth effect.

usmcjdking

The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.

SodanTok

usmcjdking wrote: »

The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.

Its literally damage derived from defenses by calculating the DoT based on damage dealt. Not being bleed just means it gets countered by defense twice.

Also personally the design of this item is just bad. Its literall only useful when used from maximum range and stacking the most damage dealt bonuses (like guaranteed crit) to get the DoT highest.

Strider__Roshin

usmcjdking wrote: »

The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.

No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.

NyassaV

no mas bleeds

lassitershawn

Going to have to agree with this. Don't play much stam but I thought this item looked cool as bleed, not so much as poison. I think most people want strong special weapons. Might not hurt to look at the destro and s/b either, they are pretty lackluster.

usmcjdking

Daus wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.

No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.

I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.

SodanTok

usmcjdking wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.

No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.

I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.

Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.

All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.

Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.

DDuke

Agreed, bow is already oversaturated with poison damage: Lethal Arrow (guaranteed Poisoned status effect proc), Poison Injection, Acid Spray... this set dealing poison damage doesn't really bring anything new to the table where as bleed damage could've helped bow builds against high mitigation tanks (against which they struggle a lot).

Onefrkncrzypope

Hey they got to justify the new dk passive right?

Strider__Roshin

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Hey they got to justify the new dk passive right?

The DK passive has no effect on this DoT.

Onefrkncrzypope

Daus wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Hey they got to justify the new dk passive right?

The DK passive has no effect on this DoT.

NVM I'm a ***.

OrphanHelgen

brandonv516 wrote: »

Shinshadow wrote: »

How are you gonna name something RAZOR SHOT, and make it do poison instead of bleed?

The same way Earthgore has a Blood effect and Bloodspawn has an Earth effect.

wow

OrphanHelgen

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Hey they got to justify the new dk passive right?

The DK passive has no effect on this DoT.

So it's a poison skill that doesn't get a cost reduction?

The skill itself is physical from the bow skill line. The dot procs from the set, and cost nothing.

ArtOfShred

I agree its basically double dipping on mitigation. It would be better to lower the damage a bit and make it a bleed if that was the intent.

Or if the intent was to make it poison damage for thematic reasons then I suggest renaming it because "Razor Shot" sounds a bit off for a poison damage ability.

Crixus8000

DDuke wrote: »

Agreed, bow is already oversaturated with poison damage: Lethal Arrow (guaranteed Poisoned status effect proc), Poison Injection, Acid Spray... this set dealing poison damage doesn't really bring anything new to the table where as bleed damage could've helped bow builds against high mitigation tanks (against which they struggle a lot).

Your joking ? I run 30k resists, full impen, with impen also on my shield and most snipes are always above 5k at least. I have met you in pvp and you hit me around 10k multiple times. I think the game has enough bleeds. Untill bleeds actually have a counter other than being a super heal bot I don't think adding more to pvp is a good thing.

DDuke

Crixus8000 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Agreed, bow is already oversaturated with poison damage: Lethal Arrow (guaranteed Poisoned status effect proc), Poison Injection, Acid Spray... this set dealing poison damage doesn't really bring anything new to the table where as bleed damage could've helped bow builds against high mitigation tanks (against which they struggle a lot).

Your joking ? I run 30k resists, full impen, with impen also on my shield and most snipes are always above 5k at least. I have met you in pvp and you hit me around 10k multiple times. I think the game has enough bleeds. Untill bleeds actually have a counter other than being a super heal bot I don't think adding more to pvp is a good thing.

Nope.

10k is actually pretty low for my build, Asylum Snipes are like 15k minimum on a medium armor build for instance.


If the snipe deals 10k damage unblocked it means my total burst is around 17-18k'ish, surviving that (with 25k+ health it's no problem) and then blocking pretty much means game over for the bow build if you're also running sets like Troll King & have that 6k weapon damage (from Fury/Legion) Vigor/Rally ticking every second.

The one time I met you outside Black Boot you also got hit by a siege at the same time if I recall correctly, high mitigation targets are usually a big no no for bow builds (and most of the other burst oriented builds in the game).

I've hit players who aren't blocking for as little as 3k with a snipe (this was one of those 50k+ health dark cloak magblades so no things such as Magma/Corrosive Armor either).

Crixus8000

DDuke wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Agreed, bow is already oversaturated with poison damage: Lethal Arrow (guaranteed Poisoned status effect proc), Poison Injection, Acid Spray... this set dealing poison damage doesn't really bring anything new to the table where as bleed damage could've helped bow builds against high mitigation tanks (against which they struggle a lot).

Your joking ? I run 30k resists, full impen, with impen also on my shield and most snipes are always above 5k at least. I have met you in pvp and you hit me around 10k multiple times. I think the game has enough bleeds. Untill bleeds actually have a counter other than being a super heal bot I don't think adding more to pvp is a good thing.

Nope.

10k is actually pretty low for my build, Asylum Snipes are like 15k minimum on a medium armor build for instance.


If the snipe deals 10k damage unblocked it means my total burst is around 17-18k'ish, surviving that (with 25k+ health it's no problem) and then blocking pretty much means game over for the bow build if you're also running sets like Troll King & have that 6k weapon damage (from Fury/Legion) Vigor/Rally ticking every second.

The one time I met you outside Black Boot you also got hit by a siege at the same time if I recall correctly, high mitigation targets are usually a big no no for bow builds (and most of the other burst oriented builds in the game).

I've hit players who aren't blocking for as little as 3k with a snipe (this was one of those 50k+ health dark cloak magblades so no things such as Magma/Corrosive Armor either).

Good point, once I know your there I can turtle up so hitting that hard does have a trade off. I just have issues with the dysnc and bugs snipe has atm. I would like them to fix that knd of stuff first before adding a powerful option like bleeds. I still really do not like the idea of bleeds in no cp anyway. I don't mind them being strong but they do too much imo.

Minno

Crixus8000 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Agreed, bow is already oversaturated with poison damage: Lethal Arrow (guaranteed Poisoned status effect proc), Poison Injection, Acid Spray... this set dealing poison damage doesn't really bring anything new to the table where as bleed damage could've helped bow builds against high mitigation tanks (against which they struggle a lot).

Your joking ? I run 30k resists, full impen, with impen also on my shield and most snipes are always above 5k at least. I have met you in pvp and you hit me around 10k multiple times. I think the game has enough bleeds. Untill bleeds actually have a counter other than being a super heal bot I don't think adding more to pvp is a good thing.

It would have been a 28 meter applied bleed as well attached to a 2100 cost CC that heals you/repositions you. All the other bleeds are melee based, with both direct/dot based dmgs, one healing you with a HOT and the other granting a shield.

Bleed was not the right call, but poison isn't either. 50% Physical dmg might be better, can at least scale off front bar automaton and work for stam sorcs looking for a passive dot for implosion.

Also, does it crit? Based on bleeds that have similar procs, those crit even though proc sets are supposed to not crit. So your 50% off 10k is 5k, has a chance to deal a 1.8-1.9 modifer. And since impreg got nerfed (as some in this thread successfully championed for lol) Most will only get a 4k resistance to crit dmg (1.58) resulting in a 1.22 modifer off 1.8/1. 32 off 1.9. 5k divided by 2 seconds is 2500 each proc. 2500 times 1.32 = 3300 each proc that ticks twice if in melee range. 12 seconds possible based on the distance, resulting in a tooltip of 15000 dmg.

If it crits, I think it is fine and in line with similar procs.

"(2 Items) Weapon Critical
(2 Items) Scatter Shot applies a bleed poison dmgafter a delay that deals 40% 50%of your initial attack every 2 seconds for 4 seconds. The duration increases if you are further away from your target to a maximum of 12 seconds."

DDuke

Minno wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Agreed, bow is already oversaturated with poison damage: Lethal Arrow (guaranteed Poisoned status effect proc), Poison Injection, Acid Spray... this set dealing poison damage doesn't really bring anything new to the table where as bleed damage could've helped bow builds against high mitigation tanks (against which they struggle a lot).

Your joking ? I run 30k resists, full impen, with impen also on my shield and most snipes are always above 5k at least. I have met you in pvp and you hit me around 10k multiple times. I think the game has enough bleeds. Untill bleeds actually have a counter other than being a super heal bot I don't think adding more to pvp is a good thing.

It would have been a 28 meter applied bleed as well attached to a 2100 cost CC that heals you/repositions you. All the other bleeds are melee based, with both direct/dot based dmgs, one healing you with a HOT and the other granting a shield.

Bleed was not the right call, but poison isn't either. 50% Physical dmg might be better, can at least scale off front bar automaton and work for stam sorcs looking for a passive dot for implosion.

Also, does it crit? Based on bleeds that have similar procs, those crit even though proc sets are supposed to not crit. So your 50% off 10k is now 5k, has a chance to deal a 1.8-1.9 modifer. And since impreg got nerfed (as some in this thread successfully championed for lol) Most will only get a 4k resistance to crit dmg (1.58) resulting in a 1.22 modifer off 1.8/1. 32 off 1.9. 5k divided by 2 seconds is 2500 each proc. 2500 times 1.32 = 3300 each proc that ticks twice if in melee range. 12 seconds possible based on the distance, resulting in a tooltip of 15000 dmg.

If it crits, I think it is fine and in line with similar procs.

"(2 Items) Weapon Critical
(2 Items) Scatter Shot applies a bleed poison dmgafter a delay that deals 40% 50%of your initial attack every 2 seconds for 4 seconds. The duration increases if you are further away from your target to a maximum of 12 seconds."

There's a few other item sets that apply bleed damage, even from range:

Savage Werewolf
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(5 items) Your Light and Heavy Attacks rend flesh, causing your enemy to bleed for 1000 Physical Damage every 2 seconds for 6 seconds.
^a very strong noCP set btw... bleed damage is dealt instantly every light attack

Pillar of Nirn
2 items) Adds 1096 Max Stamina
(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to create a fissure underneath the enemy after 1 second, dealing 2,000 Physical Damage to all enemies within 2.5 meters and causing them to bleed for an additional 8,000 Physical Damage over 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.


Razor Shot doesn't crit. Not the last time I tested atleast, I'll go see on PTS.


I just hate it when ZOS misses golden opportunities to tone down tank builds.

usmcjdking

SodanTok wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.

No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.

I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.

Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.

All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.

Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.

There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.

Strider__Roshin

DDuke wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Agreed, bow is already oversaturated with poison damage: Lethal Arrow (guaranteed Poisoned status effect proc), Poison Injection, Acid Spray... this set dealing poison damage doesn't really bring anything new to the table where as bleed damage could've helped bow builds against high mitigation tanks (against which they struggle a lot).

Your joking ? I run 30k resists, full impen, with impen also on my shield and most snipes are always above 5k at least. I have met you in pvp and you hit me around 10k multiple times. I think the game has enough bleeds. Untill bleeds actually have a counter other than being a super heal bot I don't think adding more to pvp is a good thing.

It would have been a 28 meter applied bleed as well attached to a 2100 cost CC that heals you/repositions you. All the other bleeds are melee based, with both direct/dot based dmgs, one healing you with a HOT and the other granting a shield.

Bleed was not the right call, but poison isn't either. 50% Physical dmg might be better, can at least scale off front bar automaton and work for stam sorcs looking for a passive dot for implosion.

Also, does it crit? Based on bleeds that have similar procs, those crit even though proc sets are supposed to not crit. So your 50% off 10k is now 5k, has a chance to deal a 1.8-1.9 modifer. And since impreg got nerfed (as some in this thread successfully championed for lol) Most will only get a 4k resistance to crit dmg (1.58) resulting in a 1.22 modifer off 1.8/1. 32 off 1.9. 5k divided by 2 seconds is 2500 each proc. 2500 times 1.32 = 3300 each proc that ticks twice if in melee range. 12 seconds possible based on the distance, resulting in a tooltip of 15000 dmg.

If it crits, I think it is fine and in line with similar procs.

"(2 Items) Weapon Critical
(2 Items) Scatter Shot applies a bleed poison dmgafter a delay that deals 40% 50%of your initial attack every 2 seconds for 4 seconds. The duration increases if you are further away from your target to a maximum of 12 seconds."

There's a few other item sets that apply bleed damage, even from range:

Savage Werewolf
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(5 items) Your Light and Heavy Attacks rend flesh, causing your enemy to bleed for 1000 Physical Damage every 2 seconds for 6 seconds.
^a very strong noCP set btw... bleed damage is dealt instantly every light attack

Pillar of Nirn
2 items) Adds 1096 Max Stamina
(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to create a fissure underneath the enemy after 1 second, dealing 2,000 Physical Damage to all enemies within 2.5 meters and causing them to bleed for an additional 8,000 Physical Damage over 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.


Razor Shot doesn't crit. Not the last time I tested atleast, I'll go see on PTS.


I just hate it when ZOS misses golden opportunities to tone down tank builds.

I'll save you the time. It doesn't crit.

DDuke

Daus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Agreed, bow is already oversaturated with poison damage: Lethal Arrow (guaranteed Poisoned status effect proc), Poison Injection, Acid Spray... this set dealing poison damage doesn't really bring anything new to the table where as bleed damage could've helped bow builds against high mitigation tanks (against which they struggle a lot).

Your joking ? I run 30k resists, full impen, with impen also on my shield and most snipes are always above 5k at least. I have met you in pvp and you hit me around 10k multiple times. I think the game has enough bleeds. Untill bleeds actually have a counter other than being a super heal bot I don't think adding more to pvp is a good thing.

It would have been a 28 meter applied bleed as well attached to a 2100 cost CC that heals you/repositions you. All the other bleeds are melee based, with both direct/dot based dmgs, one healing you with a HOT and the other granting a shield.

Bleed was not the right call, but poison isn't either. 50% Physical dmg might be better, can at least scale off front bar automaton and work for stam sorcs looking for a passive dot for implosion.

Also, does it crit? Based on bleeds that have similar procs, those crit even though proc sets are supposed to not crit. So your 50% off 10k is now 5k, has a chance to deal a 1.8-1.9 modifer. And since impreg got nerfed (as some in this thread successfully championed for lol) Most will only get a 4k resistance to crit dmg (1.58) resulting in a 1.22 modifer off 1.8/1. 32 off 1.9. 5k divided by 2 seconds is 2500 each proc. 2500 times 1.32 = 3300 each proc that ticks twice if in melee range. 12 seconds possible based on the distance, resulting in a tooltip of 15000 dmg.

If it crits, I think it is fine and in line with similar procs.

"(2 Items) Weapon Critical
(2 Items) Scatter Shot applies a bleed poison dmgafter a delay that deals 40% 50%of your initial attack every 2 seconds for 4 seconds. The duration increases if you are further away from your target to a maximum of 12 seconds."

There's a few other item sets that apply bleed damage, even from range:

Savage Werewolf
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(5 items) Your Light and Heavy Attacks rend flesh, causing your enemy to bleed for 1000 Physical Damage every 2 seconds for 6 seconds.
^a very strong noCP set btw... bleed damage is dealt instantly every light attack

Pillar of Nirn
2 items) Adds 1096 Max Stamina
(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to create a fissure underneath the enemy after 1 second, dealing 2,000 Physical Damage to all enemies within 2.5 meters and causing them to bleed for an additional 8,000 Physical Damage over 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.


Razor Shot doesn't crit. Not the last time I tested atleast, I'll go see on PTS.


I just hate it when ZOS misses golden opportunities to tone down tank builds.

I'll save you the time. It doesn't crit.

Yeah, logged on PTS to test that and a few other things.

1. DoT ticks from Maelstrom 2H are still critting
2. Razor Shot is mitigated twice by resistances (first the initial hit and then the ticks) - makes it super important to stack penetration on bow build

So the Maelstrom 2H leaves open some questions:

1. It's been working like that since Orsinium was released, so probably intended. Why don't those DoT ticks (or even Crit Rush/Stampede initial hit!) proc enchants?
2. If Maelstrom 2H DoT ticks crit... why don't Razor Shot? An oversight? Intended?

I ventured out to find answers... only to get more questions

Minno

DDuke wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Agreed, bow is already oversaturated with poison damage: Lethal Arrow (guaranteed Poisoned status effect proc), Poison Injection, Acid Spray... this set dealing poison damage doesn't really bring anything new to the table where as bleed damage could've helped bow builds against high mitigation tanks (against which they struggle a lot).

Your joking ? I run 30k resists, full impen, with impen also on my shield and most snipes are always above 5k at least. I have met you in pvp and you hit me around 10k multiple times. I think the game has enough bleeds. Untill bleeds actually have a counter other than being a super heal bot I don't think adding more to pvp is a good thing.

It would have been a 28 meter applied bleed as well attached to a 2100 cost CC that heals you/repositions you. All the other bleeds are melee based, with both direct/dot based dmgs, one healing you with a HOT and the other granting a shield.

Bleed was not the right call, but poison isn't either. 50% Physical dmg might be better, can at least scale off front bar automaton and work for stam sorcs looking for a passive dot for implosion.

Also, does it crit? Based on bleeds that have similar procs, those crit even though proc sets are supposed to not crit. So your 50% off 10k is now 5k, has a chance to deal a 1.8-1.9 modifer. And since impreg got nerfed (as some in this thread successfully championed for lol) Most will only get a 4k resistance to crit dmg (1.58) resulting in a 1.22 modifer off 1.8/1. 32 off 1.9. 5k divided by 2 seconds is 2500 each proc. 2500 times 1.32 = 3300 each proc that ticks twice if in melee range. 12 seconds possible based on the distance, resulting in a tooltip of 15000 dmg.

If it crits, I think it is fine and in line with similar procs.

"(2 Items) Weapon Critical
(2 Items) Scatter Shot applies a bleed poison dmgafter a delay that deals 40% 50%of your initial attack every 2 seconds for 4 seconds. The duration increases if you are further away from your target to a maximum of 12 seconds."

There's a few other item sets that apply bleed damage, even from range:

Savage Werewolf
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(5 items) Your Light and Heavy Attacks rend flesh, causing your enemy to bleed for 1000 Physical Damage every 2 seconds for 6 seconds.
^a very strong noCP set btw... bleed damage is dealt instantly every light attack

Pillar of Nirn
2 items) Adds 1096 Max Stamina
(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to create a fissure underneath the enemy after 1 second, dealing 2,000 Physical Damage to all enemies within 2.5 meters and causing them to bleed for an additional 8,000 Physical Damage over 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.


Razor Shot doesn't crit. Not the last time I tested atleast, I'll go see on PTS.


I just hate it when ZOS misses golden opportunities to tone down tank builds.

I'll save you the time. It doesn't crit.

Yeah, logged on PTS to test that and a few other things.

1. DoT ticks from Maelstrom 2H are still critting
2. Razor Shot is mitigated twice by resistances (first the initial hit and then the ticks) - makes it super important to stack penetration on bow build

So the Maelstrom 2H leaves open some questions:

1. It's been working like that since Orsinium was released, so probably intended. Why don't those DoT ticks (or even Crit Rush/Stampede initial hit!) proc enchants?
2. If Maelstrom 2H DoT ticks crit... why don't Razor Shot? An oversight? Intended?

I ventured out to find answers... only to get more questions

That's terrible lol. This set should crit or be changed to per second if they don't want it to crit.

Oversight and lazy change.

Zeromaz

DDuke wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Agreed, bow is already oversaturated with poison damage: Lethal Arrow (guaranteed Poisoned status effect proc), Poison Injection, Acid Spray... this set dealing poison damage doesn't really bring anything new to the table where as bleed damage could've helped bow builds against high mitigation tanks (against which they struggle a lot).

Your joking ? I run 30k resists, full impen, with impen also on my shield and most snipes are always above 5k at least. I have met you in pvp and you hit me around 10k multiple times. I think the game has enough bleeds. Untill bleeds actually have a counter other than being a super heal bot I don't think adding more to pvp is a good thing.

It would have been a 28 meter applied bleed as well attached to a 2100 cost CC that heals you/repositions you. All the other bleeds are melee based, with both direct/dot based dmgs, one healing you with a HOT and the other granting a shield.

Bleed was not the right call, but poison isn't either. 50% Physical dmg might be better, can at least scale off front bar automaton and work for stam sorcs looking for a passive dot for implosion.

Also, does it crit? Based on bleeds that have similar procs, those crit even though proc sets are supposed to not crit. So your 50% off 10k is now 5k, has a chance to deal a 1.8-1.9 modifer. And since impreg got nerfed (as some in this thread successfully championed for lol) Most will only get a 4k resistance to crit dmg (1.58) resulting in a 1.22 modifer off 1.8/1. 32 off 1.9. 5k divided by 2 seconds is 2500 each proc. 2500 times 1.32 = 3300 each proc that ticks twice if in melee range. 12 seconds possible based on the distance, resulting in a tooltip of 15000 dmg.

If it crits, I think it is fine and in line with similar procs.

"(2 Items) Weapon Critical
(2 Items) Scatter Shot applies a bleed poison dmgafter a delay that deals 40% 50%of your initial attack every 2 seconds for 4 seconds. The duration increases if you are further away from your target to a maximum of 12 seconds."

There's a few other item sets that apply bleed damage, even from range:

Savage Werewolf
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(5 items) Your Light and Heavy Attacks rend flesh, causing your enemy to bleed for 1000 Physical Damage every 2 seconds for 6 seconds.
^a very strong noCP set btw... bleed damage is dealt instantly every light attack

Pillar of Nirn
2 items) Adds 1096 Max Stamina
(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to create a fissure underneath the enemy after 1 second, dealing 2,000 Physical Damage to all enemies within 2.5 meters and causing them to bleed for an additional 8,000 Physical Damage over 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.


Razor Shot doesn't crit. Not the last time I tested atleast, I'll go see on PTS.


I just hate it when ZOS misses golden opportunities to tone down tank builds.

I'll save you the time. It doesn't crit.

Yeah, logged on PTS to test that and a few other things.

1. DoT ticks from Maelstrom 2H are still critting
2. Razor Shot is mitigated twice by resistances (first the initial hit and then the ticks) - makes it super important to stack penetration on bow build

So the Maelstrom 2H leaves open some questions:

1. It's been working like that since Orsinium was released, so probably intended. Why don't those DoT ticks (or even Crit Rush/Stampede initial hit!) proc enchants?
2. If Maelstrom 2H DoT ticks crit... why don't Razor Shot? An oversight? Intended?

I ventured out to find answers... only to get more questions

Does this mean the Razor Shot dot will proc enchants?

Maryal

DDuke wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Agreed, bow is already oversaturated with poison damage: Lethal Arrow (guaranteed Poisoned status effect proc), Poison Injection, Acid Spray... this set dealing poison damage doesn't really bring anything new to the table where as bleed damage could've helped bow builds against high mitigation tanks (against which they struggle a lot).

Your joking ? I run 30k resists, full impen, with impen also on my shield and most snipes are always above 5k at least. I have met you in pvp and you hit me around 10k multiple times. I think the game has enough bleeds. Untill bleeds actually have a counter other than being a super heal bot I don't think adding more to pvp is a good thing.

It would have been a 28 meter applied bleed as well attached to a 2100 cost CC that heals you/repositions you. All the other bleeds are melee based, with both direct/dot based dmgs, one healing you with a HOT and the other granting a shield.

Bleed was not the right call, but poison isn't either. 50% Physical dmg might be better, can at least scale off front bar automaton and work for stam sorcs looking for a passive dot for implosion.

Also, does it crit? Based on bleeds that have similar procs, those crit even though proc sets are supposed to not crit. So your 50% off 10k is now 5k, has a chance to deal a 1.8-1.9 modifer. And since impreg got nerfed (as some in this thread successfully championed for lol) Most will only get a 4k resistance to crit dmg (1.58) resulting in a 1.22 modifer off 1.8/1. 32 off 1.9. 5k divided by 2 seconds is 2500 each proc. 2500 times 1.32 = 3300 each proc that ticks twice if in melee range. 12 seconds possible based on the distance, resulting in a tooltip of 15000 dmg.

If it crits, I think it is fine and in line with similar procs.

"(2 Items) Weapon Critical
(2 Items) Scatter Shot applies a bleed poison dmgafter a delay that deals 40% 50%of your initial attack every 2 seconds for 4 seconds. The duration increases if you are further away from your target to a maximum of 12 seconds."

There's a few other item sets that apply bleed damage, even from range:

Savage Werewolf
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(5 items) Your Light and Heavy Attacks rend flesh, causing your enemy to bleed for 1000 Physical Damage every 2 seconds for 6 seconds.
^a very strong noCP set btw... bleed damage is dealt instantly every light attack

Pillar of Nirn
2 items) Adds 1096 Max Stamina
(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to create a fissure underneath the enemy after 1 second, dealing 2,000 Physical Damage to all enemies within 2.5 meters and causing them to bleed for an additional 8,000 Physical Damage over 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.


Razor Shot doesn't crit. Not the last time I tested atleast, I'll go see on PTS.


I just hate it when ZOS misses golden opportunities to tone down tank builds.

Twin Sisters Armor set 5th bonus:
When you block an attack, you have a 20% chance to cause all enemies within 5 meters of you to bleed for 8820 Physical Damage over 8 seconds. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds.

IZZEFlameLash

DDuke wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Agreed, bow is already oversaturated with poison damage: Lethal Arrow (guaranteed Poisoned status effect proc), Poison Injection, Acid Spray... this set dealing poison damage doesn't really bring anything new to the table where as bleed damage could've helped bow builds against high mitigation tanks (against which they struggle a lot).

Your joking ? I run 30k resists, full impen, with impen also on my shield and most snipes are always above 5k at least. I have met you in pvp and you hit me around 10k multiple times. I think the game has enough bleeds. Untill bleeds actually have a counter other than being a super heal bot I don't think adding more to pvp is a good thing.

Nope.

10k is actually pretty low for my build, Asylum Snipes are like 15k minimum on a medium armor build for instance.


If the snipe deals 10k damage unblocked it means my total burst is around 17-18k'ish, surviving that (with 25k+ health it's no problem) and then blocking pretty much means game over for the bow build if you're also running sets like Troll King & have that 6k weapon damage (from Fury/Legion) Vigor/Rally ticking every second.

The one time I met you outside Black Boot you also got hit by a siege at the same time if I recall correctly, high mitigation targets are usually a big no no for bow builds (and most of the other burst oriented builds in the game).

I've hit players who aren't blocking for as little as 3k with a snipe (this was one of those 50k+ health dark cloak magblades so no things such as Magma/Corrosive Armor either).

"10k is low" lol. Hits harder or as hard as ordinary stam build DBoS and it is low. Meteor hitting 10k is rare on full impen, 30k resists and non-ult skill hitting for 10k is "low". LOL.

Strider__Roshin

Zeromaz wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Agreed, bow is already oversaturated with poison damage: Lethal Arrow (guaranteed Poisoned status effect proc), Poison Injection, Acid Spray... this set dealing poison damage doesn't really bring anything new to the table where as bleed damage could've helped bow builds against high mitigation tanks (against which they struggle a lot).

Your joking ? I run 30k resists, full impen, with impen also on my shield and most snipes are always above 5k at least. I have met you in pvp and you hit me around 10k multiple times. I think the game has enough bleeds. Untill bleeds actually have a counter other than being a super heal bot I don't think adding more to pvp is a good thing.

It would have been a 28 meter applied bleed as well attached to a 2100 cost CC that heals you/repositions you. All the other bleeds are melee based, with both direct/dot based dmgs, one healing you with a HOT and the other granting a shield.

Bleed was not the right call, but poison isn't either. 50% Physical dmg might be better, can at least scale off front bar automaton and work for stam sorcs looking for a passive dot for implosion.

Also, does it crit? Based on bleeds that have similar procs, those crit even though proc sets are supposed to not crit. So your 50% off 10k is now 5k, has a chance to deal a 1.8-1.9 modifer. And since impreg got nerfed (as some in this thread successfully championed for lol) Most will only get a 4k resistance to crit dmg (1.58) resulting in a 1.22 modifer off 1.8/1. 32 off 1.9. 5k divided by 2 seconds is 2500 each proc. 2500 times 1.32 = 3300 each proc that ticks twice if in melee range. 12 seconds possible based on the distance, resulting in a tooltip of 15000 dmg.

If it crits, I think it is fine and in line with similar procs.

"(2 Items) Weapon Critical
(2 Items) Scatter Shot applies a bleed poison dmgafter a delay that deals 40% 50%of your initial attack every 2 seconds for 4 seconds. The duration increases if you are further away from your target to a maximum of 12 seconds."

There's a few other item sets that apply bleed damage, even from range:

Savage Werewolf
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(5 items) Your Light and Heavy Attacks rend flesh, causing your enemy to bleed for 1000 Physical Damage every 2 seconds for 6 seconds.
^a very strong noCP set btw... bleed damage is dealt instantly every light attack

Pillar of Nirn
2 items) Adds 1096 Max Stamina
(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to create a fissure underneath the enemy after 1 second, dealing 2,000 Physical Damage to all enemies within 2.5 meters and causing them to bleed for an additional 8,000 Physical Damage over 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.


Razor Shot doesn't crit. Not the last time I tested atleast, I'll go see on PTS.


I just hate it when ZOS misses golden opportunities to tone down tank builds.

I'll save you the time. It doesn't crit.

Yeah, logged on PTS to test that and a few other things.

1. DoT ticks from Maelstrom 2H are still critting
2. Razor Shot is mitigated twice by resistances (first the initial hit and then the ticks) - makes it super important to stack penetration on bow build

So the Maelstrom 2H leaves open some questions:

1. It's been working like that since Orsinium was released, so probably intended. Why don't those DoT ticks (or even Crit Rush/Stampede initial hit!) proc enchants?
2. If Maelstrom 2H DoT ticks crit... why don't Razor Shot? An oversight? Intended?

I ventured out to find answers... only to get more questions

Does this mean the Razor Shot dot will proc enchants?

It does not.

SodanTok

usmcjdking wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

The last thing this game needs is more bleeds, oblivion damage, undodgeable attacks or anything that generally ignores defenses.

No it doesn't. Didn't you read what I said? The DoT is already reduced via mitigation because its strength is derived from the damage dealt from Scatter Shot. Having the DoT become poison damage is having it reduced by your target's resistances twice.

I read and fully understand your request. There are plenty of skills that get charged defensive values twice and, in my opinion, you haven't justified or given enough practical reason as to why this particular attack shouldn't be.

Practical reason? if something gets affected by defenses twice there are only 2 situations. That something is either useless when countered by good defense or OP when countered by low defense.

All those attacks that ignore defenses were created to counter high defenses and they punish low defenses much more. I am sure you dont like it. This gear will have to work same way Unless its useless, but why bother arguing to keep something useless.

Making it deal bleed damage means the counter to the direct hit (be it blocking it, dodging or having high armor or some major protection) is countering and lowering the damage of bleed. Creating ability that gets countered by defenses but doesnt become useless when done so.

There are far more than two things that get double taxed by armor/resistances.

Such as?