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Fake role ***....and an idea on how to deal with it
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FlyingSwan✭✭✭✭✭SakuraRush wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »There are two extremely good solutions to fake roles (or any problem member really) already in place
1. Vote to kick. Failing that, you are somehow in the minority. Leave the group and try again, unfortunately with penalty.
2. Group with known people. Guilds, friends, zone and don't worry about fake roles
Don't expect the queue system to be a replacement for a premade or even partial premade group.
Vote doesn't work when the fake is part of a duo.
The leave penalty punishes the legitimate player.
If it's a bad duo then you have to drop group, that's life. The 15 minute penalty is a doozy IMO. By the time you've realised you've got a total loser tank or some wet flannel of a DPS pulling 10k max it's usually the first boss (everyone deserves a chance to prove their build after all), so you've already lost a few minutes. Drop group, go farm mats or do a couple of world bosses and the remaining time is gone.
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NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭How about git gud? TBH I hate what they did to the group finder. I carry more than 10 sets on one character so I can fill every role but now I'm forced to queue for just one
Honestly just learn to solo the dungeonFlawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info0 -
SakuraRush✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »SakuraRush wrote: »Or we could be given an "avoid this player" option and the game will no longer match them with you. You'll still get fakes but after a short while of everyone avoiding them they'll be unable to pug.
Now THAT is a good idea
Nope, this will be abused for all sorts of chenanigans that has nothing to do with fake roles. Bad idea.
though with a modification to this suggestion I may be in favor: if the "avoid player" option means that the player selecting the option is the one being left out of the group matching. That way it wont be able to be misused.
Anything can be abused. The group finder itself is being abused, thus prompting these discussions.1 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How about git gud? TBH I hate what they did to the group finder. I carry more than 10 sets on one character so I can fill every role but now I'm forced to queue for just one
Honestly just learn to solo the dungeon
I don't think it's a reasonable expectation that players solo vet dungeons, certainly not vet DLC dungeons.
Also, if you can legit do every role, then just queue as tank and play as a tank. It's the role that you'd be filling anyway if you queue for all 3.6 -
SakuraRush✭✭✭How about git gud? TBH I hate what they did to the group finder. I carry more than 10 sets on one character so I can fill every role but now I'm forced to queue for just one
Honestly just learn to solo the dungeon
I don't care what someone queues for as long as they fulfill that role. If you can perform any role then this isn't about you.
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FlyingSwan✭✭✭✭✭How about git gud? TBH I hate what they did to the group finder. I carry more than 10 sets on one character so I can fill every role but now I'm forced to queue for just one
Honestly just learn to solo the dungeon
Fine on most vet content but the new DLC are very slow to solo, and many people can't do it (I've not even tried solo vet Scalecaller et al).Edited by FlyingSwan on October 2, 2018 7:46PM0 -
WhipSmartMcoy✭✭✭If your suggested change became reality, then as a tank I'd Que for DD or Healer because I'm already built to sustain, (how well you do it is a different discussion), already built to take less (more) damage, and already built to taunt. Why gimp my damage for passive buffs I don't need when I can Que as a healer or DD and do more damage or healing? When most dungeons can be completed with 3 DD and a (sometimes) tank, this only makes healers even less appealing. Why sign up for an 80% damage drop (why such drastic numbers?) when you can que as DD and have the same healing but more damage? Also, FYI, healers like to do damage when they're not healing. Why bring ANYONE into a dungeon that's doing 80% less damage?
All in all, 3/10 idea1 -
thegreat_one✭✭✭✭I always queue as a tank,
Even if im not the tank.
Why??
Cause Zos Dungeon finder is so broken its the only role that gets me in a dungeon. To bad I guess.
C U SOON1 -
SakuraRush✭✭✭thegreat_one wrote: »I always queue as a tank,
Even if im not the tank.
Why??
Cause Zos Dungeon finder is so broken its the only role that gets me in a dungeon. To bad I guess.
C U SOON
Don't blame the dungeon finder for the ratio of tanks to healers to damage. You chose the most populated role, it shouldn't be a surprise that you would have the longest waits.
The dungeon finder is broken, just not in the ways you need it to be to make your argument hold water.7 -
Danksta✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I hate fake roles but I'd hate this even more. Sorry.
Ok, and what do you hate about it? the fact that it would make fake roles suffer horribly while not really effecting those that are doing the role proper? or the fact that it won't let you dart off in a dungeon? I mean I did state quite clearly that said effects would only be applied to you WHILE YOU ARE IN THE DUNGEON
The fact that I can't queue with friends with 3 or 4 DPS maybe?
BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA1 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭codestripper wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »I cant imagine the debuffs on the healer and tanks damage helping groups who's DPS is already low.
A -80% debuff on a healer if they're doing only 15k damage is a bigger loss in DPS than the 5% buff on 2 x 20k DDs.
The tether is pretty funny though. As much as I'd like to see that, I could also see our short-winded brethren and sisters being snatched toward a group as they arrive at a chest or doing a quest.
it's less that and more "fake healer McactuallyaDD" can't show up and just DD things as per normal...instead they will be slapped with a dps debuff...which won't effect a healer..as they will be..ya know..healing....and buffing....
The thing is though, healers still need to assist with group damage. A decent healer can do 10-20% of the damage in a normal group.
no they don't NEED to... a half decent group burns things down fast enough...plus if the healer is managing 20% of the group dps...then eaither something is very wrong, or the group has very *** dps.
As a healer, actually healing, I can do 15k DPS, plus whatever tank is doing, and two decent 30k DPS, I'm doing 20% or more of group dps. Even with two 40k dps, it's still a high value. And that's not with a bad group, unless you're saying that two 30k DPS isn't good, or 40k isn't what you can best hope for.
20% is fairly reasonable. Place a few HoT, place a few dots, heavy attack to keep Magicka up for burst healing. That's not that hard to cycle through at all, and more than enough for most 4-people groups on vet. Nah... What's wrong is a healer that wants to do 30k-40k and still think they can heal. Not likely.3 -
Danksta✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭codestripper wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »I cant imagine the debuffs on the healer and tanks damage helping groups who's DPS is already low.
A -80% debuff on a healer if they're doing only 15k damage is a bigger loss in DPS than the 5% buff on 2 x 20k DDs.
The tether is pretty funny though. As much as I'd like to see that, I could also see our short-winded brethren and sisters being snatched toward a group as they arrive at a chest or doing a quest.
it's less that and more "fake healer McactuallyaDD" can't show up and just DD things as per normal...instead they will be slapped with a dps debuff...which won't effect a healer..as they will be..ya know..healing....and buffing....
The thing is though, healers still need to assist with group damage. A decent healer can do 10-20% of the damage in a normal group.
no they don't NEED to... a half decent group burns things down fast enough...plus if the healer is managing 20% of the group dps...then eaither something is very wrong, or the group has very *** dps.
As a healer, actually healing, I can do 15k DPS, plus whatever tank is doing, and two decent 30k DPS, I'm doing 20% or more of group dps. Even with two 40k dps, it's still a high value. And that's not with a bad group, unless you're saying that two 30k DPS isn't good, or 40k isn't what you can best hope for.
20% is fairly reasonable. Place a few HoT, place a few dots, heavy attack to keep Magicka up for burst healing. That's not that hard to cycle through at all, and more than enough for most 4-people groups on vet. Nah... What's wrong is a healer that wants to do 30k-40k and still think they can heal. Not likely.
And what about NB healers? Some of their class heals scale off of how much damage they do.BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA2 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »How about git gud? TBH I hate what they did to the group finder. I carry more than 10 sets on one character so I can fill every role but now I'm forced to queue for just one
Honestly just learn to solo the dungeon
I don't think it's a reasonable expectation that players solo vet dungeons, certainly not vet DLC dungeons.
Also, if you can legit do every role, then just queue as tank and play as a tank. It's the role that you'd be filling anyway if you queue for all 3.
Tanking is boring. And "almost" every dungeon save for the DLC dungeons and some that have certain mechanicscan be soloed. Even then you aren't actually soloing it you just carry everyone elseFlawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info0 -
kathandira✭✭✭✭✭
✭redspecter23 wrote: »How about git gud? TBH I hate what they did to the group finder. I carry more than 10 sets on one character so I can fill every role but now I'm forced to queue for just one
Honestly just learn to solo the dungeon
I don't think it's a reasonable expectation that players solo vet dungeons, certainly not vet DLC dungeons.
Also, if you can legit do every role, then just queue as tank and play as a tank. It's the role that you'd be filling anyway if you queue for all 3.
Tanking is boring. And "almost" every dungeon save for the DLC dungeons and some that have certain mechanicscan be soloed. Even then you aren't actually soloing it you just carry everyone else
Sounds like the real answer is not class nerfs to classes or skills. Looks like a dungeon restructure is needed.
Easy - Would be today's normal difficulty - Awards Green quality gear.
Normal - Increased difficulty (Leaning more towards today's Vet difficulty) - Awards Blue quality gear.
Veteran - Even higher difficulty (Harder than today's Vet difficulty) - Awards Purple quality gear.
Hard Mode Veteran - The most difficult setting - Awards Yellow quality gear.
If dungeons are so easily soloed, then the game is obviously not difficult enough.PS4-NA. Breton Templar Healer, Bosmer Stamplar, Breton Magplar, Orsimer StamDK, Dunmer MagDK, Khajiit StamNB, Dunmer MagNB, Argonian Warden Tank, Altmer Magsorc1 -
FlyingSwan✭✭✭✭✭kathandira wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »How about git gud? TBH I hate what they did to the group finder. I carry more than 10 sets on one character so I can fill every role but now I'm forced to queue for just one
Honestly just learn to solo the dungeon
I don't think it's a reasonable expectation that players solo vet dungeons, certainly not vet DLC dungeons.
Also, if you can legit do every role, then just queue as tank and play as a tank. It's the role that you'd be filling anyway if you queue for all 3.
Tanking is boring. And "almost" every dungeon save for the DLC dungeons and some that have certain mechanicscan be soloed. Even then you aren't actually soloing it you just carry everyone else
Sounds like the real answer is not class nerfs to classes or skills. Looks like a dungeon restructure is needed.
Easy - Would be today's normal difficulty - Awards Green quality gear.
Normal - Increased difficulty (Leaning more towards today's Vet difficulty) - Awards Blue quality gear.
Veteran - Even higher difficulty (Harder than today's Vet difficulty) - Awards Purple quality gear.
Hard Mode Veteran - The most difficult setting - Awards Yellow quality gear.
If dungeons are so easily soloed, then the game is obviously not difficult enough.
Certainly for co-ordinated and properly geared groups none of the 4-man content presents a real challenge (excepting perhaps some of the newer vet DLC such as Scalecaller). It only becomes an issue when you get a fake tank with no taunt so the mobs scatter and can't be burned down in a reasonable time, or two sad sack DPS in heavy armour doing 10k DPS apiece, then you're in for a slow and tedious run.
Edited by FlyingSwan on October 2, 2018 8:44PM0 -
Ekzorka✭✭✭✭✭Solution: don't play with random people.
Most of players make a group in normal random in guilds and not bothering about role (because normal non-DLC dungeons could be done in 4 DDs at CP levels). If you prefer to play veteran random dungeon, the best way is find 2-3 players in chat (like for pledges). No need to breaking normal randoms, please.0 -
Yusuf✭✭✭✭✭How about fixing the grouptool first? I spent an hour "accepting" my queue-role to get the message 'someone has declined' for the millionth time only to manually port in at the end.
I also miss queue-ing as DD and Tank, since I can effectively do either of those jobs by switching gear.
What I'm trying to say is: all these suggestions that are meant to discourage bad players to do something stupid do more harm than good.1 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭codestripper wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »I cant imagine the debuffs on the healer and tanks damage helping groups who's DPS is already low.
A -80% debuff on a healer if they're doing only 15k damage is a bigger loss in DPS than the 5% buff on 2 x 20k DDs.
The tether is pretty funny though. As much as I'd like to see that, I could also see our short-winded brethren and sisters being snatched toward a group as they arrive at a chest or doing a quest.
it's less that and more "fake healer McactuallyaDD" can't show up and just DD things as per normal...instead they will be slapped with a dps debuff...which won't effect a healer..as they will be..ya know..healing....and buffing....
The thing is though, healers still need to assist with group damage. A decent healer can do 10-20% of the damage in a normal group.
no they don't NEED to... a half decent group burns things down fast enough...plus if the healer is managing 20% of the group dps...then eaither something is very wrong, or the group has very *** dps.
As a healer, actually healing, I can do 15k DPS, plus whatever tank is doing, and two decent 30k DPS, I'm doing 20% or more of group dps. Even with two 40k dps, it's still a high value. And that's not with a bad group, unless you're saying that two 30k DPS isn't good, or 40k isn't what you can best hope for.
20% is fairly reasonable. Place a few HoT, place a few dots, heavy attack to keep Magicka up for burst healing. That's not that hard to cycle through at all, and more than enough for most 4-people groups on vet. Nah... What's wrong is a healer that wants to do 30k-40k and still think they can heal. Not likely.
And what about NB healers? Some of their class heals scale off of how much damage they do.
Mind you, I don't care. If the tank is alive and the healer heals, The more damage the better! The other person had issues with healer doing damage, I don't. I do damage as healer when it's needed and safe
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Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And here I thought the OP's answer to how to deal with "fake" roles was going to be "recognize you queued for a group with random people who may or may not conform to your expectations, and deal with it." Oh well.2 -
Mintaka5✭✭✭✭✭Come on, people.
We all know the skills, CP, and/or classes needed for the role of tank/healer. DPS is a wildcard. If someone does queue as tank/healer, there should be some check on there role based on the devs specifications for those roles. I mean if they can suggest builds based on roles, then they can most certainly prevent role-spoofing. Now that we have that side of things figured out, and we consider the wildcard DPSs, pre-queue, a check is made, and system says, "Hey you look like a tank/healer, maybe try switching roles and re-queue."
I'm tired of all this **** of players speculating as well as assuming there is no real way to handle a PROGRAMMED video game. It's not AI mmmmk!0 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭SakuraRush wrote: »Jayman1000 wrote: »SakuraRush wrote: »Or we could be given an "avoid this player" option and the game will no longer match them with you. You'll still get fakes but after a short while of everyone avoiding them they'll be unable to pug.
Now THAT is a good idea
Nope, this will be abused for all sorts of chenanigans that has nothing to do with fake roles. Bad idea.
though with a modification to this suggestion I may be in favor: if the "avoid player" option means that the player selecting the option is the one being left out of the group matching. That way it wont be able to be misused.
Anything can be abused. The group finder itself is being abused, thus prompting these discussions.
That's a terrible argument for making the system even more prone to abuse, and for no good reason since the problem wont be solved at all.0 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭As a NB healer, I think this is a horrible idea. Funnel Health is based off the damage I do with it and an 80% nerf to it (on top of the 50% it's getting in Murkmire) would leave the skill virtually useless.Argonian forever1 -
Mintaka5✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »As a NB healer, I think this is a horrible idea. Funnel Health is based off the damage I do with it and an 80% nerf to it (on top of the 50% it's getting in Murkmire) would leave the skill virtually useless.
This is useless and horrible.0 -
Stebarnz✭✭✭✭✭
✭Max CP decent players do not 'need' a dedicated healer or a dedicated tank, its easier and faster to simply burn the dungeon with 150-200k group dps with a toon to heal as part of dps (nb best, warden good) and hold boss aggro as part of dps (all roles can do this).
Trying to force good players to do what you suggest is slowing them down, let everyone play how they want.
Everyone max CP should be able to finish VMA easily so this will teach survivability while dpsing.
Having said this me and my partner carry players through all dungeons vet hm regularly as we know we can duo the dungeons at the end we always get a 'thx for the carry' and a thx for showing people how to handle the dungeon so everyone wins and learns, sometimes we do too.
I don't understand why you would want to try and control people so much, Do you work for the government?
I would love some dedicated 2 man content though, must be lots of partners and pals who want this. like a more difficult VMA for a group of 2.
Join a guild or get a pal, 2 people can do any 4 man content this game has to offer. Maybe new dlc hm would be a challenge but I'm sure top tier could do it.2 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Come on, people.
We all know the skills, CP, and/or classes needed for the role of tank/healer. DPS is a wildcard. If someone does queue as tank/healer, there should be some check on there role based on the devs specifications for those roles. I mean if they can suggest builds based on roles, then they can most certainly prevent role-spoofing. Now that we have that side of things figured out, and we consider the wildcard DPSs, pre-queue, a check is made, and system says, "Hey you look like a tank/healer, maybe try switching roles and re-queue."
I'm tired of all this **** of players speculating as well as assuming there is no real way to handle a PROGRAMMED video game. It's not AI mmmmk!
Do we all know the skills and CP allotments needed for tanking and healing? A guild mate has six different tanks with six unique builds. He brings the tank that is most appropriate to the dungeon/trial we are running. What about that level 10 character that wants to run their first dungeon? Are they going to have the skills your check would require? For sure they are not going to have the CP allotment. If the game decides players need a taunt to tank the players will queue with an Ice Staff slotted and switch it out when they get in the dungeon so they can do the DPS they want to do. Forcing players into a set CP configuration is a bad idea even if the set is fairly lenient in specifics.
Many people are assuming skill levels in this thread. Sure there are players that can solo dungeons. There are also many players that can not and we can't ignore these players to appease the few. I sometimes take my healer set up for PvP in for a random run. I change out skills to help with DPS because even with DPS in my rotation I will be over healing most of the run. Sometimes I get a group that needs nothing but buffs from my healer. Those runs while okay from time to time get boring quick. Sometimes I get in a group that is going to struggle and struggle a lot. Had one group where my healer kept everybody alive held agro on two of the bosses and did 65% of the damage in those two fights. That run was fun but again I wouldn't like all of them to be like that. Usually I get something in the middle.
The OP idea punishes groups that have players that haven't quite figured out the game yet or otherwise have difficulties playing. It fails to take into account players of all skill levels. That alone makes it a poor idea. Also doesn't make a distinction between preformed groups and pugs doing a random run. Preformed groups often have one player list themselves as tank or healer with no intent of them playing that role. That is fine so long as everybody knows going in what to expect.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It always surprises me that some people have expectations of random groups. Just slot a self heal, be prepared to block or dodge, bring any required buffs and debuffs, and try to kill everything needed to complete the dungeon. If the 3 other people there help with this then great, it will be easy, quick and smooth. If not, then at least they’ll still serve as meat bags so all the mobs don’t focus you, and maybe they’ll even trade gear at the end.
No mechanics changes or special punishments are necessary. Just play the game and have fun.Edited by WrathOfInnos on October 2, 2018 10:52PM1 -
Sheezabeast✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The number of people who abuse it for line-cutting faaaaar outnumber the people who can legit perform 'any role'.
Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!2
