Maintenance for the week of September 8:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – September 8
• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784

Is dark magic evil?

Petoften
Petoften
✭✭✭
Mages seem to have pretty limited choices - summoning, storm, and dark. If a mage is a 'good' character, can they use dark magic? I only have the name to go by - though the demonlike pets summoned by the summoning magic are rather worrisome as well. What's a good mage to do, only lightning?
  • Alpheu5
    Alpheu5
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Summoning/Conjuration is seen as neutral, necromancy is seen as "evil". The Dark Magic skill line is only called "dark" by name. In actuality it's a mixture of Destruction and Alteration magic, if we use the classic/future school system.
    Edited by Alpheu5 on September 30, 2018 4:44AM
    Dalek-Rok - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Shād - Argonian Nightblade || Dalek-Shul - Argonian Templar || Dalek-Xal - Argonian Dragonknight || Mounts-the-Snout - Argonian Warden || Dalek-Xul - Argonian Necromancer || Two-Spires - Argonian Arcanist || Dalek-Nesh - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Kör - Argonian Dragonknight
    Don't incorporate bugs into your builds, and you won't have [an] issue.
  • TheShadowScout
    TheShadowScout
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sorcerors are a bit leaning towards... morally questionable magicks. Summoning Daedra or cursing people... not the most goodly of spells, right?
    It does make them sort of a counterpart to the "holy-ish" templars, who are all about healing and holy light (and holy magic spears for some reason)

    So if you really want to make a "good-ish" sorceror for a "mage" type build, you may want to stick to lightning and look towards mages guild and psijic order to make up for that...
  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Summoning daedra isn't evil since you're just summoning them to serve you. Everyone does it, including members of the Psijic Order (there are atronoch servants tending to the land in Artaeum).

    The only evil magic in TES lore is necromancy.
  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    evil is a mortal concept
  • Recremen
    Recremen
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    For one thing, it's not really "dark" magic in any sense of the word. It's like summoning projectile exploding crystals and wards and things like that. There's no shadowy stuff for literal darkness or animal sacrifice or depredation or whatnot for other interpretations of what "dark" might mean. The only thing even remotely evil-sounding are the passives, but they have no lore or visual effect to back them up and don't seem to matter at all.

    Additionally, there's nothing "evil" about darkness. Nighttime, when people rest and sleep, is a time of healing and gentle repose.
    Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
    Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster
  • OrdoHermetica
    OrdoHermetica
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Sorcerers of ESO make pacts and deals with Azura for some of their abilities, and Azura is - to use D&D phrasing - pretty thoroughly Neutral. So, you can definitely be a good character using the neutral daedric magic of the Sorcerer tree. We don't actually get to use the "evil" magic of the Elder Scrolls universe in ESO (excepting Vampirism, I guess).

    Though yeah, magicka Templar are the "good" spellcasters of ESO, that's true.
    Edited by OrdoHermetica on September 30, 2018 10:48PM
  • TheShadowScout
    TheShadowScout
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    evil is a mortal concept
    No, evil is a -moral- concept.
    Evil_5da1f9_5337373.jpg
    :p;):naughty:

    What is evil for some is honorable for others.
    What is normal for some is evil for others.
    Cannibalism is evil, unless you ask a Bosmer. Daedra are evil, unless you ask an ashlander. Eating your veggies is good, unless you ask a bosmer. Slavery is evil, unless you ask a telvanni. Murder is evil, unless you ask a follower of sithis. The divines are good, unless you ask a daedric cultist. Madness is evil, unless you ask uncle Sheo. Undeath is evil unless you ask a vampire. Law enforcement is good, unless you ask a thief. Necromancy is evil, unless you ask a necromancer.
    Et cetera...
    "Good and Evil aren't always!", as the great sage of shadowdale once was reported saying - even tho that is a different franchise, and a different world, the fact remains that "evil" often depends entirely on your point of view...

    Also, "Dark Magic" can have two definitions. One is "evil-ish magic", the other is... magic dealing with some sort of darkness. Like... dark crystals. I always assumed that was the origin of the skill line for ESO...
  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    evil is a mortal concept
    No, evil is a -moral- concept.
    Evil_5da1f9_5337373.jpg
    :p;):naughty:

    What is evil for some is honorable for others.
    What is normal for some is evil for others.
    Cannibalism is evil, unless you ask a Bosmer. Daedra are evil, unless you ask an ashlander. Eating your veggies is good, unless you ask a bosmer. Slavery is evil, unless you ask a telvanni. Murder is evil, unless you ask a follower of sithis. The divines are good, unless you ask a daedric cultist. Madness is evil, unless you ask uncle Sheo. Undeath is evil unless you ask a vampire. Law enforcement is good, unless you ask a thief. Necromancy is evil, unless you ask a necromancer.
    Et cetera...
    "Good and Evil aren't always!", as the great sage of shadowdale once was reported saying - even tho that is a different franchise, and a different world, the fact remains that "evil" often depends entirely on your point of view...

    Also, "Dark Magic" can have two definitions. One is "evil-ish magic", the other is... magic dealing with some sort of darkness. Like... dark crystals. I always assumed that was the origin of the skill line for ESO...

    "Evil" is generally accepted to mean any action that hurts an innocent party.

    That means slavery, murder, ***, etc.

    I don't think the Telvanni would deny that slavery is evil. They just don't give a ***.
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on September 30, 2018 7:12AM
  • RaddlemanNumber7
    RaddlemanNumber7
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Mage =/= Sorcerer. Any magicka build is a mage - NB mage, DK mage, Warden mage, Templar mage, Sorcerer mage. There are also a lot of non-class skill lines that have Magicka spells. Lots of stuff to choose from there. No need for any mage to conjure daedra or do dark magic if you don't want them to.







    PC EU
  • LukosCreyden
    LukosCreyden
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Magic is no more or less evil than a sword. Depends upon how it is used and from whose perspective.
    Struggling to find a new class to call home.Please send help.
  • eso_nya
    eso_nya
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is no good or evil, there is just power and the ones that r to weak to use it. :)
  • OrdoHermetica
    OrdoHermetica
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    eso_nya wrote: »
    There is no good or evil, there is just power and the ones that r to weak to use it. :)

    I found the Telvanni!
  • EvilCroc
    EvilCroc
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    My Khajiiti healer uses dark magic and daedric sumoning as offensive skills. She is an Azurah priestess and she is not "evil"
  • Petoften
    Petoften
    ✭✭✭
    Magic is no more or less evil than a sword.

    Gonna disagree there. Some magic, like necromancy mentioned above, is 'evil'.
    Edited by Petoften on September 30, 2018 9:08AM
  • eso_nya
    eso_nya
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Petoften wrote: »
    Magic is no more or less evil than a sword.

    Gonna disagree there. Some magic, like necromancy mentioned above, is 'evil'.

    A sword is a tool with the only purpose to hurt living beings. Thats pretty much the bottom on the scale of good and evil.
  • Gythral
    Gythral
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    There is no "Good" or "Evil" just what am I happy trying to get away with!

    :blush:
    “Be as a tower, that, firmly set,
    Shakes not its top for any blast that blows!”
    Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy
  • LukosCreyden
    LukosCreyden
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    @Petoften
    How? In what way? Is it more evil than gutting someone with a knife? Jamming a fireball in their face? Soul-trapping them and using their soul to fuel your enchanted weapon?
    I disagree. Necromancy involves raising the dead for a short time, after which the victim's soul is once again unbound. Better than sending the poor soul to the Soul Cairn.
    Struggling to find a new class to call home.Please send help.
  • Neoealth
    Neoealth
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    The only thing that is evil about necromancy is when the caster uses souls from black soul gems. Since souls that are stored on black soul gems are usually those of sentient beings like men and mer. Some of the more powerful necromancy spells require black soul gem use.

    So you're basically killing a person, imprisoning the poor persons soul into a gem, then using the souls energy to power the reanimation at your convenience, then once the soul has been spent from the soul gem, the soul then it sent to the soul cairn where they are to be enslaved forever by the ideal masters.

    Edited by Neoealth on September 30, 2018 10:00AM
  • Danikat
    Danikat
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    TES lore doesn't tend to do things simply. There are very few examples of "this race/organisation/type of magic is evil and everything it does is evil", it's almost always ambiguous.

    Even necromancy has had differing views in different times and places. The Redguards are absolutely against it in any form, while the Dunmer do a lot of things which look like necromancy to anyone else but they insist it's completely different if you're summoning your own ancestors. I think the fact that it's largely disliked in ESO is mostly down to the Wurm Cult murdering randoms to harvest their souls.

    With other types of magic the concern is more about how it's used than what it's called or even what exactly it does. A mate summoning a daedra in their own home is fine, as long as they know what they're doing and it doesn't escape. A mage summoning a daedra to attack innocent people is evil. But then it depends on your definition of innocent...

    Having said that if you want an unambiguously good mage it's probably simpler to make a templar or warden and use light armour and magicka skills rather than a sorcerer.
    PC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!

    "Remember in this game we call life that no one said it's fair"
  • Tyrobag
    Tyrobag
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Summoning daedra isn't evil since you're just summoning them to serve you. Everyone does it, including members of the Psijic Order (there are atronoch servants tending to the land in Artaeum).

    The only evil magic in TES lore is necromancy.

    Stop going around telling people that! lol

    Necromancy is not illegal to use on the mortal races anywhere but Hammerfell. The body is considered property, thus those who cannot legally own property (criminals, bandits, and the like) as well as animals are all fair game for necromancy. Necromancy is no more inherently evil than Vampires( See Valdur in Eastmarch, and house Ravenwatch in Rivenspire). Many people run away an scream when they see them, but other people's prejudice doesn't make them evil.

    Dark Magic is a bit of a misnomer anyways, unless you find crystals evil.

    There's no problem with Daedric summoning either. Many Nords would scoff and say its evil (like they do for most magic), while Dunmer use the summoning of Daedra (and necromancy) in their religion and to guard their tombs.

    Just because evil people use a certain type of magic immorally doesn't make the magic evil. People are evil, not magic.
    Edited by Tyrobag on September 30, 2018 11:04AM
  • Glurin
    Glurin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    eso_nya wrote: »
    Petoften wrote: »
    Magic is no more or less evil than a sword.

    Gonna disagree there. Some magic, like necromancy mentioned above, is 'evil'.

    A sword is a tool with the only purpose to hurt living beings. Thats pretty much the bottom on the scale of good and evil.

    Someone wears a hat that you don't like, so you stab them with a sword.

    Someone is trying to kill you because they don't like your hat, so you stab them with a sword.

    In both cases, the sword itself is neither good nor evil. It is merely the tool used. Nothing more and nothing less. (Well, unless it's cursed or the Ebony Blade or something. Then one might have a case that it's evil.)

    Necromancy, by itself, is the same way. It's what you do with it that really determines the morality of it.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • Leocaran
    Leocaran
    ✭✭✭
    Neoealth wrote: »
    The only thing that is evil about necromancy is when the caster uses souls from black soul gems.
    Except everyone uses soul gems.
  • FluffyDragg0n
    Its not the spell that kills you. Just the wielder. Ohh wait, there are spells that require sacrifices.... nvm.
    I luv dragons.
  • Glurin
    Glurin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Leocaran wrote: »
    Neoealth wrote: »
    The only thing that is evil about necromancy is when the caster uses souls from black soul gems.
    Except everyone uses soul gems.

    Yes, but most of those are filled with lesser souls like scamps, wolves or ducks. That's why I just can't seem to get rid of this enchanted Amulet of Healing. Every time I try to sell it it goes "QUACK! QUACK!" :p
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • Neoealth
    Neoealth
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Leocaran wrote: »
    Neoealth wrote: »
    The only thing that is evil about necromancy is when the caster uses souls from black soul gems.
    Except everyone uses soul gems.

    Lesser soul gems sure, although I would not say "everyone" if we are talking from a perspective of lore. Lesser soul gems are not capable of holding Grand souls of Men or Mer as I said. Using black soul gems is considered a crime various places in Tamriel, certainly in Skyrim.

    Also not to mention the fact that the divines consider necromancy to be abhorrent, especially Arkay, the god of cycle of birth and death.

    Even the daedric prince Meridia hates necromancy with a passion.

    Edited by Neoealth on September 30, 2018 11:33AM
  • TheShadowScout
    TheShadowScout
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Evil" is generally accepted to mean any action that hurts an innocent party.
    What is the definition of "innocent"?
    There have been a great many shennannigans with that one, defining someone as "not innocent" and thus "deserving" of being hurt for various reasons.
    Because they are deemed "part of a corrupt system" that someone tells you needs to be fought (even if they are just someone doing their job at the wrong time in the wrong place - terrorists love this one).
    Because they were -just- like that one person who hurt you once in the past, and while you cannot get the one in the past, you can get this one (serial killers often go with this one).
    Because they were somehow in your way, keeping you from what you consider rightfully yours (the classic "underdog" excuse to steal from and murder anyone in their way, also often used by "destiny awaits!" supermacist groups).
    Because they are different from you, and someone defines their having a different skin color, religious credo, political opinion or sexual orientation as "threat" to your way of life which you need to defend (the other side to the above, used by those who think defending the status quo is worth any price).
    Because someone tells you it is an "either we, or them" kind of situation, as has happened all too often throughout history... no matter if on a national scale (war) or on a group scale (gang violence) or a personal scale (cops "fearing for their life") - often with the added "if they are not with us, they are against us!" detail...

    What is the definition of "hurt"?
    Often actions that leave no -physical- scars have been and often still are not seen as "hurt" by many people. Especially when it comes to forced sexual contact, which I presume is what you were referring to when the forum censorship struck... and doubly so when it comes to underage contact (the old "helping them explore their sexuality" argument often cited by sexual predators ever since the "summer of love" I would think) or property seizure or damage ("noone got hurt, we just took/destroyed everything those people had been working to build for all their lives, why are they so upset about this?")
    Similar arguments have been used for a great many other things that people have done to others over time.
    Slavery was argued to be "beneficial" as it "helped" those "primitive cultures" to "fit in" with "civilized society" (both the ancient romans and the colonial powers used this argument).
    Ruinous taxation was considered "the nobles taking what is due to them" and simply a fact of normal life for many a century (until the people had it with those nobles and finally managed a successful revolt - the swiss showed europe how its done, the rest... took a while longer...); and the ones trying to resist that sort of thing were considered the "evil" rebels and outlaws by the nobles (until they succeeded and got to write history from their point of view).
    Forced re-education (aka, brainwashing and indoctrination) in several societies was seen as helpful, whereas we today would shudder at the thought.
    Taking other proples goods by force was considered "heroic" and/or "just re-distribution of wealth" by many a viking raider, outlaw, bandit, barbarian invader, conquistador, holy crusader, and everyone else from the dawn of history to modern day looters.
    Treating women as property was considered "normal" and also "done for their own good" not that far ago as history goes, and there are still a great many clichees that hail from the flimsy justifications used furing those times.
    General property confiscation in many socialist/communist states (soviet russia, maoist china) was considered "right and just", taking "unearned wealth in the name of the people", no matter how hard some had worked to earn that, (and of course it often ended up with the party officials living the exact same way as the rich nobles and bankers had before - animal farm was spot on for this one)

    What is the definition of "evil"?
    Even when an action would be considered "hurtful" and "against innocents", it is often not considered "evil" if it serves some "greater good" - and that "greater good" excuse has often be used to justify all kinds of horribleness...
    Surgery would hurt, but it is seldom seen as evil as it serves a "greater good", the correction of a health problem that threatens to cause more damage then the "hurt" of the surgery.
    Criminal punishment in medieval times was full of hurt and such, but considered "good" because it was seen to serve the "greater good" of keeping societies laws.
    Experimentation on living humans are morally questionable no matter when, double so if done without consent... but many an not-mad scientist has considered them acceptable when there was some "greater good" to be pursued, some knowledge to be gained.
    Conquering other countries certainly hurt many innocents, but was not considered "evil" but "heroic" throughout most of history, because it served "king and country", and brought "our glorious civilization to their backwater lands" and stuff like that.

    ...

    ...yeah, humans can be quite a piece of work.

    But the point I am making stands firm - "Evil" depends entirely on the moral point of view you see some action from.
    I don't think the Telvanni would deny that slavery is evil...
    Actually, they would. But then, they would deny that the whole concept of "evil" even exists... they would say that there is no good and evil, just actions and consequences, just those powerful enough to avoid the consequences, and those so weak as to have to avoid the actions.

    And they probably also see enslaving others as beneficial for them (see above). After all, what more can an lowly argonian ask for then to have some purpose in their life, purpose that serves the glorious telvanni?

    It has been said, the monster never sees a monster in the mirror. They always see someone who "does what is needed" for some "greater good" (even if that good may be their personal advancement, they will often rationalize it as benefitting their choosen society... even if they want to burn the whole world down they will rationalize it that the world is corrupt and a better world will rise from the ashes... even if they hurt innocents they will rationalize it that there are no innocents, and their suffering serves some cause or goal...)

    Drat, I guess I got rather sidetracked lecturing about the relativity of evil, huh? :p;)
    Petoften wrote: »
    Some magic, like necromancy mentioned above, is 'evil'.
    ...yes, many people on tamriel consider it evil, and we have ample questings where we see that in practice. Both with the worm cult, and with several unrelated necromancic encounters.
    But as said... it all depends on the point of view, and a great many who pay lip service in condemning necromancy will quietly support its use for their own cause if the need arises.
    Edited by TheShadowScout on September 30, 2018 11:30AM
  • RD065
    RD065
    ✭✭✭✭
    What's more "goodly" Dark Magic or an Arrow to the throat?
  • SSlarg
    SSlarg
    ✭✭✭
    Magic is a tool and therefore cannot be good or evil.

    The use of magic, it is the user that has intent therefore the user is evil or good.

    Is a hammer used in a murder evil?
    No the user is evil, not the tool.
    PS4 NA PSN - SSlarg
    Currently Looking To Buy:
    NoThInG
  • Neoealth
    Neoealth
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    SSlarg wrote: »
    Magic is a tool and therefore cannot be good or evil.

    The use of magic, it is the user that has intent therefore the user is evil or good.

    Is a hammer used in a murder evil?
    No the user is evil, not the tool.

    What you say is true. However when thinking about "dark magic" with Necromancy being one of the obvious schools of magic that could be labeled dark, there is more to it. For example. You could be casting low level necromancy spells which require just normal cast magic from the user, or stored souls from lesser soul gems (as i mentioned in my other posts) and your reanimated corpse could be used for good, or for evil. So with this example yes it depends on the user if it's good or evil.

    But with more powerful spells in necromancy the act of trapping grand souls is often required to supplement the strength of the spell. And this means the use of black soul gems. Which automatically makes that form of magic evil, regardless of what the casters intentions may be.
    Edited by Neoealth on September 30, 2018 11:52AM
  • Corpier
    Corpier
    ✭✭✭✭
    "The blade itself incites to deeds of violence" - Homer

    "Weapons don't hurt people, people hurt people with weapons" -Anonymous

    Pick your sophism.
    @Corpier | PC/NA CP1300+

    My Characters:
    AD
    A Príorí: Highelf - Magicka Sorcerer
    DC
    Corpier: Orc - Stamina Nightblade
    Corpier: Orc - Stamina Sorcerer
    EP
    A Fortiori: Darkelf - Magicka Nightblade
    A Posteriori: Darkelf - Magicka Dragonknight
    Bertha Ironsides: Imperial - Dragonknight Tank
    Corpier: Breton - Magicka Templar
    Corpíer: Orc - Stamina Templar
    CorpÌer: Orc - Stamina Warden
    Corpier: Orc - Stamina Necromancer
    Logen'Bloody-Nine'Fingers: Orc - Stamina Dragonknight
This discussion has been closed.