The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Is dark magic evil?
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Davor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mages seem to have pretty limited choices - summoning, storm, and dark. If a mage is a 'good' character, can they use dark magic? I only have the name to go by - though the demonlike pets summoned by the summoning magic are rather worrisome as well. What's a good mage to do, only lightning?
What makes a summoned demonlike pet evil? What makes dark magic evil. How about a person who summons not demon like pets and kills people. Does that make them nice?
Also if you use only "good" stuff, how are you going to play? Will you never kill? Will you only kill in self defence? Will you never steel?
To play most video games you need to get "good" and "evil" out because no matter how "good" anyone is, they always do "evil" stuff.Not my quote but I love this saying
"I would pay It for support. But since they choosed we are just numbers and not customers, i dont mind if game and zos goes to oblivion"0 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »"Evil" is generally accepted to mean any action that hurts an innocent party..
If you look up the actual history and derivation of the word, it essentially means "stuff I don't like" (yes, it's an oversimplification, but you get my point).Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis1 -
Davor✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
No, evil is a -moral- concept.evil is a mortal concept
What is evil for some is honorable for others.
What is normal for some is evil for others.
Cannibalism is evil, unless you ask a Bosmer. Daedra are evil, unless you ask an ashlander. Eating your veggies is good, unless you ask a bosmer. Slavery is evil, unless you ask a telvanni. Murder is evil, unless you ask a follower of sithis. The divines are good, unless you ask a daedric cultist. Madness is evil, unless you ask uncle Sheo. Undeath is evil unless you ask a vampire. Law enforcement is good, unless you ask a thief. Necromancy is evil, unless you ask a necromancer.
Et cetera...
"Good and Evil aren't always!", as the great sage of shadowdale once was reported saying - even tho that is a different franchise, and a different world, the fact remains that "evil" often depends entirely on your point of view...
Also, "Dark Magic" can have two definitions. One is "evil-ish magic", the other is... magic dealing with some sort of darkness. Like... dark crystals. I always assumed that was the origin of the skill line for ESO...
"Evil" is generally accepted to mean any action that hurts an innocent party.
That means slavery, murder, ***, etc.
I don't think the Telvanni would deny that slavery is evil. They just don't give a ***.
Then almost everything we do in ESO is evil then. The beggar we don't help. The animals we kill, the plants we pick, the fish etc. It's way more than slavery, murder etc.
Not my quote but I love this saying
"I would pay It for support. But since they choosed we are just numbers and not customers, i dont mind if game and zos goes to oblivion"0 -
Bouldercleave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭We trap the souls of our enemies (sometimes human, sometimes not) and use their essence to recharge the weapons that we use to kill and destroy eachother.
Are ANY of us without a bit of evil?...0 -
Lieblingsjunge✭✭✭✭✭
✭Meh. People have such a black and white interpretation of the word "Dark" and "Evil". It's all subjective. What's considered Dark for some, might be someone else's Light. What's Evil for me, might be the most normal thing in the world for someone else.
I wouldn't consider dark magic evil. It's just a type of magic.Ignorance is the greatest weapon of tyranny.
PC - EU.
Lieblingsjunge(AD) - Racechanged Argonian :< | AR 50 - No double AP or Bleakers involved |
Sits-On-Cacti(DC) - Problem?
Fail-With-Tail(AD) - Healing Springs-spammer :<
Tiny Liebs(EP) - Very Tiny. Also heals.
Lieblingsmädchen(DC) - Magplar is love.
The Dominàtrix(AD) - Chains, whip, whip, whip.
Fluffy Furball Kitten(DC) - Kittycat, meow.
Your Face(EP) - People make bad jokes about my name =(
Liebs-With-Trees(AD) - Male argo with a big tail :>
Officer/Sandwitch of Zerg Squad
My title: The Maneater, Destroyer of Maneuvers, Bane of Potatoes, she who devours them, The Black Hole, the humorless, first of her name.0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you start treating morality as, what is beneficial to me and society, you will realize pretty soon that many morals are not subjective.
Stealing, is not moral, not even to feed your family etc, because, why didn't you just work for it? And maybe that other person needs it just as much as you, and also, why did you decide to have children if you were in such a bad economical state?
Start thinking in the lines, of what is beneficial to me and to others, and you will see pretty fast that morals many times are not subjective.
i would rather not be killed, you would rather not i guess, so let's avoid killing each other.
If you are a criminal though, you have already overstepped morality in some ways, whether you stolen, murdered or something else, therefore, you will be punished in accord to what you have done.
I said many times, because not even i know all the arguments for morality.
Edited by JinMori on September 30, 2018 9:26PM0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bouldercleave wrote: »We trap the souls of our enemies (sometimes human, sometimes not) and use their essence to recharge the weapons that we use to kill and destroy eachother.
Are ANY of us without a bit of evil?...
that is indeed morally wrong, but since it's a game, there is no real repercussion, so who cares.0 -
Bouldercleave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bouldercleave wrote: »We trap the souls of our enemies (sometimes human, sometimes not) and use their essence to recharge the weapons that we use to kill and destroy eachother.
Are ANY of us without a bit of evil?...
that is indeed morally wrong, but since it's a game, there is no real repercussion, so who cares.
My point exactly. There are SEVERAL things in this game (as well as most others) that I personally find morally reprehensible (and thus "evil"), but the entire game is built off a moral compass that would make Jack Sparrow blush.
I just try not to over think it.1 -
Judas Helviaryn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ive always considered dark magic to be a combination of conjuration, alteration, and in some cases mysticism schools of magic.
Take crystal fragments.
The user summons otherworldly crystals out of nowhere, magically manipulates them into a projectile, and then telekinetically hurls them at his target.
(I would personally like to know which plane of existence these crystals come from, as well as where they're banished to during that flash of light when they strike their target, but I'm just a huge lore hound when it comes to picking apart the magic, tools, and artifacts of the game.
The fact that the majority of the crystals vanish as they hit the target leads me to believe that the conjuration was unstable, and the sorcerer was somehow using that unstable summoning, which evidently collapses violently, as the bulk of the damage on top of the kinetic impact of the mass itself, perhaps giving it that explosive property that you see throwing shards off everywhere. Crystal Blast comes to mind.)
I don't consider it destruction magic, as destruction seemed to focus more on mortal energies, such as flame, frost, and shock, that were already active potentials present in their immediate area. You can heat air directly, and somehow create a combustion magically, but you're utilizing the immediate environment nonetheless.
Magic schools have social stigma attached to them, but I don't consider dark magic, or the nightblade's admittedly scarier shadow magic, evil. They're all tools to be assigned morality through the will of their users.Edited by Judas Helviaryn on September 30, 2018 9:56PM0 -
AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
✭Manny Kant isn't in tamriel, so we have no objective way of knowing if it's evil or not. "Dark" is just a word that has no moral significance, is day good and night evil? Are Reguards evil and Bretons good? Dark just means mysterious and cool, like Poldark's eyes. You don't think Poldark is evil do you?“Whatever.”
-Unknown American0 -
Rain_Greyraven✭✭✭✭✭Yes Virginia there is evil. Evil is the willful harm perpetrated by a sentient being against an innocent being for no other reason than to bring joy to the party or person that is perpetrating the act.
Dark magic isn't evil in itself unless that definition is broken.
When the rubber meets the road it is that simple.
Those that argue against that true statement is in evils hip-pocket
Also eradicating Evil by any means necessary is a virtue.Edited by Rain_Greyraven on September 30, 2018 10:19PM"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.”
― Robert E. Howard
So you want to be a game developer? Here is the best way to go about it.0 -
Androconium✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mages seem to have pretty limited choices - summoning, storm, and dark. If a mage is a 'good' character, can they use dark magic? I only have the name to go by - though the demonlike pets summoned by the summoning magic are rather worrisome as well. What's a good mage to do, only lightning?
They get nerfed.1 -
OrdoHermetica✭✭✭✭✭
✭Judas Helviaryn wrote: »
(I would personally like to know which plane of existence these crystals come from, as well as where they're banished to during that flash of light when they strike their target, but I'm just a huge lore hound when it comes to picking apart the magic, tools, and artifacts of the game.
Given that sorcerers appear to be making pacts with Azura when they conjure Daedric powers? Probably Moonshadow, which is known for its half-formed objects and thoughts. That would certainly fit with something that unstable.1 -
Androconium✭✭✭✭✭
✭AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »Manny Kant isn't in tamriel, so we have no objective way of knowing if it's evil or not. "Dark" is just a word that has no moral significance, is day good and night evil? Are Reguards evil and Bretons good? Dark just means mysterious and cool, like Poldark's eyes. You don't think Poldark is evil do you?
I don't want to be Poldarked.0 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No beating around the bush? Sorcerers are evil.
They summon demons, and they apply curses. Heck they even have a passive called blood magic.
Sorcerers are probably the most evil class in the game technically; whereas Templars
are the most holy.2 -
AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
✭Androconium wrote: »AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »Manny Kant isn't in tamriel, so we have no objective way of knowing if it's evil or not. "Dark" is just a word that has no moral significance, is day good and night evil? Are Reguards evil and Bretons good? Dark just means mysterious and cool, like Poldark's eyes. You don't think Poldark is evil do you?
I don't want to be Poldarked.
Nobody is going to believe that denial! Everyone wants a good Poldarking.“Whatever.”
-Unknown American0 -
Konstant_Tel_Necris✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Summoning daedra isn't evil since you're just summoning them to serve you. Everyone does it, including members of the Psijic Order (there are atronoch servants tending to the land in Artaeum).
The only evil magic in TES lore is necromancy.
Necromancy is not evil, its just one of avenues of magical study what was used with evil intents the same goes for Destruction and Conjuration as well.
You should read about researches done by Vastarie.
Remember how Vestige rise Flesh Atronach in Castle of the Worm?
Remember how Vestige used Dark Soul Gem to bind worm cultist soul at the Rift?
Remember how Vestige help Lieutenant Belron with hearts of reachmen in Rift?
Remember how Vestige bind Queen Nurnhilde soul to worm cultist corpse?
There is many other examples how necromancy was used by Vestige, does all of his doings was wrong and evil?0 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Technically anything that is powered by some pact with Oblivion and Daedric realms would be considered "evil".
But, Elder Scrolls is kind of ok with evil, it only seems to draw the line at necromancy.0 -
OrdoHermetica✭✭✭✭✭
✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »Technically anything that is powered by some pact with Oblivion and Daedric realms would be considered "evil".
That's... not really true, though. Oblivion is not the Elder Scrolls equivalent of Hell, and Daedra are not all evil. Indeed, some Daedric Princes - like Azura and Meridia - are decidedly neutral. Ganted, the majority of daedra are at least malicious, but that's a pretty typical thing in spirit realms in fantasy.
Regardless, throughout Elder Scrolls lore, mages that are decidedly not evil do things like conjuring Daedra or weapons to serve them, and quite a bit of magic comes from Oblivion. The Elder Scrolls universe certainly doesn't consider dealing with Oblivion to be an inherently evil act.Edited by OrdoHermetica on October 1, 2018 1:37AM1 -
Konstant_Tel_Necris✭✭✭✭✭Judas Helviaryn wrote: »Ive always considered dark magic to be a combination of conjuration, alteration, and in some cases mysticism schools of magic.
Take crystal fragments.
The user summons otherworldly crystals out of nowhere, magically manipulates them into a projectile, and then telekinetically hurls them at his target.
(I would personally like to know which plane of existence these crystals come from, as well as where they're banished to during that flash of light when they strike their target, but I'm just a huge lore hound when it comes to picking apart the magic, tools, and artifacts of the game.
The fact that the majority of the crystals vanish as they hit the target leads me to believe that the conjuration was unstable, and the sorcerer was somehow using that unstable summoning, which evidently collapses violently, as the bulk of the damage on top of the kinetic impact of the mass itself, perhaps giving it that explosive property that you see throwing shards off everywhere. Crystal Blast comes to mind.)
I don't consider it destruction magic, as destruction seemed to focus more on mortal energies, such as flame, frost, and shock, that were already active potentials present in their immediate area. You can heat air directly, and somehow create a combustion magically, but you're utilizing the immediate environment nonetheless.
Magic schools have social stigma attached to them, but I don't consider dark magic, or the nightblade's admittedly scarier shadow magic, evil. They're all tools to be assigned morality through the will of their users.
I believe crystal have connection to dark soul gems from Coldharbour, they have very similar visual traits just compare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI7q_BOglXY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQW1gIWhnbo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0JhmIsqF7o
and
https://eso.mmo-fashion.com/soul-gems-scattered-2/
https://eso.mmo-fashion.com/soul-gems-pile/
https://eso.mmo-fashion.com/soul-gem-single/
Also soul gem inside of Enchanting Stations have glow similar to crystals from Dark Magic
Perhaps Dark Exchange use conjured filled soul gems as source of restorative power as Vestige already use filled soul gems to restore his body.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8zM6vtpDzI
Edited by Konstant_Tel_Necris on October 1, 2018 2:26AM1 -
OrdoHermetica✭✭✭✭✭
✭Konstant_Tel_Necris wrote: »Judas Helviaryn wrote: »Ive always considered dark magic to be a combination of conjuration, alteration, and in some cases mysticism schools of magic.
Take crystal fragments.
The user summons otherworldly crystals out of nowhere, magically manipulates them into a projectile, and then telekinetically hurls them at his target.
(I would personally like to know which plane of existence these crystals come from, as well as where they're banished to during that flash of light when they strike their target, but I'm just a huge lore hound when it comes to picking apart the magic, tools, and artifacts of the game.
The fact that the majority of the crystals vanish as they hit the target leads me to believe that the conjuration was unstable, and the sorcerer was somehow using that unstable summoning, which evidently collapses violently, as the bulk of the damage on top of the kinetic impact of the mass itself, perhaps giving it that explosive property that you see throwing shards off everywhere. Crystal Blast comes to mind.)
I don't consider it destruction magic, as destruction seemed to focus more on mortal energies, such as flame, frost, and shock, that were already active potentials present in their immediate area. You can heat air directly, and somehow create a combustion magically, but you're utilizing the immediate environment nonetheless.
Magic schools have social stigma attached to them, but I don't consider dark magic, or the nightblade's admittedly scarier shadow magic, evil. They're all tools to be assigned morality through the will of their users.
I believe crystal have connection to dark soul gems from Coldharbour, they have very similar visual traits just comparehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI7q_BOglXYhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQW1gIWhnbohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0JhmIsqF7o
and
https://eso.mmo-fashion.com/soul-gems-scattered-2/
https://eso.mmo-fashion.com/soul-gems-pile/
https://eso.mmo-fashion.com/soul-gem-single/
Also soul gem inside of Enchanting Stations have glow similar to crystals from Dark Magic
Perhaps Dark Exchange use conjured filled soul gems as source of restorative power as Vestige already use filled soul gems to restore his body.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8zM6vtpDzI
They look like Soul Gems, yes, but Soul Gems aren't specific to Coldharbour, nor does Coldharbour have any special connection to them. That's just Oblivion in general that looks a bit like that. And the ACTUAL Soul Gem realm in Oblivion is both A.) its own thing completely separated from any Daedric Prince and B.) really, really weird. Strangest quest line in Skyrim by far, I think.0 -
Shraar✭✭✭
Oh that is just pure nonsense!TheShadowScout wrote: »the fact remains that "evil" often depends entirely on your point of view...
Some things are good and some things are bad! Simple! Read the 9 Commands of the Eight Divines if you still don't get it!
I feel like a lot of people are swept away by 50 Shades of Grey and think they're more mature because they're impartial, that nothing is true. They can stuff it. Deep down they know what's what. The road to Oblivion is paved with good intentions, sure, but sincerity and intention cannot define the reality the Aedra have made for us!
What is good:
1. Be kind and generous.
2. Honor the earth, its creatures, and respect the living and dead.
3. Live soberly and peacefully.
4. Work hard.
5. Respect nature.
6. It's such a wonderful thing to love.
7. Don't tell lies that you know to be lies.
8. Work together.
9. Be good to one another.
Edited by Shraar on October 1, 2018 9:36AM1 -
Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, as a wise man once said, "It's fun to do bad things""If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."0 -
Neoealth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think a lot of people are getting their arguments mixed up. OP was asking simply is dark magic evil. People seem to be responding about what is good and evil, when they should be viewing it from a lore point perspective.1 -
stewhead2ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Oh that is just pure nonsense!TheShadowScout wrote: »the fact remains that "evil" often depends entirely on your point of view...
Some things are good and some things are bad! Simple! Read the 9 Commands of the Eight Divines if you still don't get it!
I feel like a lot of people are swept away by 50 Shades of Grey and think they're more mature because they're impartial, that nothing is true. They can stuff it. Deep down they know what's what. The road to Oblivion is paved with good intentions, sure, but sincerity and intention cannot define the reality the Aedra have made for us!
What is good:
1. Be kind and generous.
2. Honor the earth, its creatures, and respect the living and dead.
3. Live soberly and peacefully.
4. Work hard.
5. Respect nature.
6. It's such a wonderful thing to love.
7. Don't tell lies that you know to be lies.
8. Work together.
9. Be good to one another.
You are going on the premise that everyone subscribes to the Eight Divines point of view. The simple fact, as others have previously stated here, is that concepts of "good" and "evil" are in the eye of the beholder.1 -
Bruccius✭✭✭✭✭Mages seem to have pretty limited choices - summoning, storm, and dark. If a mage is a 'good' character, can they use dark magic? I only have the name to go by - though the demonlike pets summoned by the summoning magic are rather worrisome as well. What's a good mage to do, only lightning?
''Dark magic'' is a fable. Even necromancy is legal... Though you won't get a lot of support for it.
In the Empire, one could even purchase corpses for necromantic rituals, the only thing that's illegal is using bodies of people you just kill, which is exactly what most necromancers do.0
This discussion has been closed.