New evasion on nb - a PvP perspective

The_Brosteen · September 2018

Maryal wrote: »

Just because you have a NB toon doesn't make your agenda less obvious ... in fact, it stands out like a sore thumb!.

If someone wants major evasion it's easy to get, no matter what class you are. Even before the upcoming patch, anyone could get AOE damage reduction by using deadly cloak (dual wield weapon ability).

You say NBs got a big buff, I say they got a big nerf. Many NB abilities got a big cost increase ... it wasn't that easy to sustain before, but it's going to be a lot more difficult now (that is, unless you are a gank build, but then again, no matter what class you are, gank builds don't need much to sustain).

Before you were tied to duel wield for the aoe mitigation but more importantly you had to use an additional skill slot.

Now stamblades who didnt use blade cloak before get that 25% aoe reduction without changing anything. Also they have a class skill that will grant it so stamblades now have 3 options for getting 25% aoe mitigation. That sounds like a pretty solid survivability buff to me.

cpuScientist · September 2018

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Just because you have a NB toon doesn't make your agenda less obvious ... in fact, it stands out like a sore thumb!.

If someone wants major evasion it's easy to get, no matter what class you are. Even before the upcoming patch, anyone could get AOE damage reduction by using deadly cloak (dual wield weapon ability).

You say NBs got a big buff, I say they got a big nerf. Many NB abilities got a big cost increase ... it wasn't that easy to sustain before, but it's going to be a lot more difficult now (that is, unless you are a gank build, but then again, no matter what class you are, gank builds don't need much to sustain).

Before you were tied to duel wield for the aoe mitigation but more importantly you had to use an additional skill slot.

Now stamblades who didnt use blade cloak before get that 25% aoe reduction without changing anything. Also they have a class skill that will grant it so stamblades now have 3 options for getting 25% aoe mitigation. That sounds like a pretty solid survivability buff to me.

Nah it sounds like less options to me. It will be neat, but passive dodge was alot stronger. And again being able to mix 2 things and now not being able to matters.

It's a good change in that passive dodge is gone, but it's a nerf to options, it's a Nerf to defense. It's only a buff if you are Jon Snow and thus Know nothing ohohohohoh

danno8 · September 2018

ManDraKE wrote: »

"main stamnb " ROLF. I'm a main magsorc asking to keep cast time on shields, trust me brah, i main sorc

Medium armor stamblade is *** for small scale, any group dumping dawnbreakers is going to burst you instantly. The only viable medium armor build for small scale is with impregnable, and that´s because how broken impregnable is.
You are not a main stamnb (or if you are, you are completly clueless about the class), and you are not a solo/small scale player. Stop prending to be something you are not to try to justify absurd arguments. There isn´t a single thing in your post that is actually true, you dont even understand how mitigation works, a 25% tooltip in major evasion doesn´t equal a 25% damage reduction. The " (aka 80%+ of all ultis) " is the proof that you have NO CLUE what you are talking about, mitigation sources like evasion/protection/etc are multiplicative, no additive. The more mitigation you stack, the less you get.

Post like this one is why the class representative program is in place, to filter all this nonsense from players that don´t even understand the basic mechanics of ESO combat, and try to provide curated feedback to DEVs.

/topic

You should actually test this AoE reduction on the PTS.

I thought just as you did, and posted as much on the Templar feedback thread since I figured that Medium armour (lets say around 20% mitigation) and the new 25% AoE mitigation would work out to be [1-(.8*.75)]=40% total mitigation just with those two in multiplicative form.

Turns out the 25% was additive with resistance value and when test I was getting an EXACT 25% decrease in damage taken (from Puncturing Sweep) after activating the new Shuffle on PTS.

I'm not sure if this is a coding error with the new buff or what.

ManDraKE · September 2018

danno8 wrote: »

You should actually test this AoE reduction on the PTS.

I thought just as you did, and posted as much on the Templar feedback thread since I figured that Medium armour (lets say around 20% mitigation) and the new 25% AoE mitigation would work out to be [1-(.8*.75)]=40% total mitigation just with those two in multiplicative form.

Turns out the 25% was additive with resistance value and when test I was getting an EXACT 25% decrease in damage taken (from Puncturing Sweep) after activating the new Shuffle on PTS.

I'm not sure if this is a coding error with the new buff or what.

I havent tested because the mitigation formula has been the same for years, but if what you say is true then is a bug imo. There is no reason for the math to be different for AoE damage. The extra damage mitigation should be multiplicative with other sources of mitigation like minor/major protection, etc. Adding porcentual additive mitigations like this allow people to make some really broken setups.

Has anynone reported or double-check with the Devs on why the new minor/major evasion is working like this? maybe a class rep can bring up this?

The OP probably nailed withouth even knowing why, even a broken clock is right twice a day lol. That being said, he was still wrong about how other mitigations were being applied, since he mentioned the ultimates that grant minor/major protection ^^

Minno · September 2018

Actually not bad suggestions. I agree with OP.

ChunkyCat · September 2018

Did I miss something?

You can use Shuffle if you’re in 5 heavy or 5 light, too?!

danno8 · September 2018

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Did I miss something?

You can use Shuffle if you’re in 5 heavy or 5 light, too?!

No, but all Stamina builds in heavy can have Blade Cloak, and perhaps most importantly NB's will have easy access to the new Evasion buffs that will be a super strong soft counter to many builds.

I am happy to play it out on live but I have a feeling that I will simply be unable to kill any half decent Stamina build, and certainly have a much harder time (keeping in mind it is already a really hard time) trying to take out any variety of NB on my Templar.

I did a bit more testing today and with my Magplar wearing all out DPS gear (parsing around 40k solo in PvE) that I would never get away with in PvP, against a full heavy opponent using just Shuffle my Puncturing Sweeps were hitting for just over 500 damage per Jab. (LOL)

That's pretty awful for a skill that is a 1.1 second channel.

Nyladreas · September 2018

The_Outsider wrote: »

Important to highlight that shuffle will only be effective against AOE damage. I suspect many solo/small scale NBs may choose to forego using shuffle at all and use that slot for other utility/mitigation options. Many NBs who play medium to largescale pvp were mostly already using bladecloak.

This will have an impact for sure, I don't know if it's a large buff to survivability tho.

It's both blade cloak and momentum for me

on my NB Shadowknight. I couldn't be happier.

Maryal wrote: »

Just because you have a NB toon doesn't make your agenda less obvious ... in fact, it stands out like a sore thumb!.

If someone wants major evasion it's easy to get, no matter what class you are. Even before the upcoming patch, anyone could get AOE damage reduction by using deadly cloak (dual wield weapon ability).

You say NBs got a big buff, I say they got a big nerf. Many NB abilities got a big cost increase ... it wasn't that easy to sustain before, but it's going to be a lot more difficult now (that is, unless you are a gank build, but then again, no matter what class you are, gank builds don't need much to sustain).

What? NB probably has the best sustain of all classes tbh. I run full heavy and do just fine

and I don't even use cloak to "cheat" sustain.

Mystrius_Archaion · September 2018

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Did I miss something?

You can use Shuffle if you’re in 5 heavy or 5 light, too?!

You missed a patch note from months ago, maybe a year, where all armor active skills require wearing 5 pieces of that armor weight or you can't use them.
It sucks, but we deal with it.

Maryal · September 2018

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Just because you have a NB toon doesn't make your agenda less obvious ... in fact, it stands out like a sore thumb!.

If someone wants major evasion it's easy to get, no matter what class you are. Even before the upcoming patch, anyone could get AOE damage reduction by using deadly cloak (dual wield weapon ability).

You say NBs got a big buff, I say they got a big nerf. Many NB abilities got a big cost increase ... it wasn't that easy to sustain before, but it's going to be a lot more difficult now (that is, unless you are a gank build, but then again, no matter what class you are, gank builds don't need much to sustain).

Before you were tied to duel wield for the aoe mitigation but more importantly you had to use an additional skill slot.

Now stamblades who didnt use blade cloak before get that 25% aoe reduction without changing anything. Also they have a class skill that will grant it so stamblades now have 3 options for getting 25% aoe mitigation. That sounds like a pretty solid survivability buff to me.

No, 'tied to dual wield' is not a good statement ... that skill is awesome. It takes sneaking, invisible, cloaked NBs out of cloak (if they get near you), it damages enemies, and it gives AOE damage reduction. Alternatively, Leki's Focus is an armor set that also reduces AOE damage (good if you are using direct damage attacks and non-AOE healing). The point being we've had AOE damage reduction in the game for a long time and in the years we've had it, it didn't make anyone using it 'OP' ...

Now it's available through more sources ... so what! It didn't make anyone OP before, it's not going to now. It is helpful, you don't have to heal as much, but you won't be the only one using it ... players you are trying to kill will also be using it. It's not that big of a deal except when dealing with some of the more difficult pve content ... but it's not going to make anyone 'OP'.

Mystrius_Archaion · September 2018

Nyladreas wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Just because you have a NB toon doesn't make your agenda less obvious ... in fact, it stands out like a sore thumb!.

If someone wants major evasion it's easy to get, no matter what class you are. Even before the upcoming patch, anyone could get AOE damage reduction by using deadly cloak (dual wield weapon ability).

You say NBs got a big buff, I say they got a big nerf. Many NB abilities got a big cost increase ... it wasn't that easy to sustain before, but it's going to be a lot more difficult now (that is, unless you are a gank build, but then again, no matter what class you are, gank builds don't need much to sustain).

What? NB probably has the best sustain of all classes tbh. I run full heavy and do just fine and I don't even use cloak to "cheat" sustain.

While I would definitely say sorcerers seem to have the worst sustain at face value of skill tooltips(not counting the "easy mode sorc" style of build and play) with templars seemingly next, heavy armor does get extra resources back from heavy attacks due to passive so that could account for much of the extra sustain if you use heavy attacks.

I definitely feel the previous nerf to Swallow Soul cost(large increase) on my hybrid/tank nightblade and am not liking the additional nerfs to that and Refreshing Path.

I wish these developers had chosen a path similar to what DC Universe Online recently did to their combat when they overhauled it. Both games are similar in that they have skills and weapon attacks that regain resources, but DCUO had resource regain on any weapon attack, not just heavy, which was much better. Now, DCUO gave players the option of buffing their weapon attacks to be their top dps they could focus on, barely activating skills at all, or the option to buff their skills and passive resource recovery to exclusively use skills only without ever needing to use a weapon attack(aside from the rock/paper/scissors triggers).

I would love it if ESO allowed me to just use the skills in my bar constantly without using the boring plain-jane attacks from most weapons or to exclusively do good dps with just my weapon attacks for the flashier more interesting weapons(like a giant 2-hander swing or the cool resto staff beam).

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · September 2018

You could use Blade Cloak and Leki or Bastion of The Heartland for this very buff where is this build on live? No where cause it’s just not a focus. Let’s remember a time before weapon ultimates when everyone was calling it, that the stamina ultimates would be the only ones used and that the staff ults would collect dust.

That’s how it was for all of three weeks when people stopped trying to make the craz work it went the complete other way. If AoE reductions were that great the build would be used more on live as it’s available now.

ll_Rev · September 2018

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

You could use Blade Cloak and Leki or Bastion of The Heartland for this very buff where is this build on live? No where cause it’s just not a focus. Let’s remember a time before weapon ultimates when everyone was calling it, that the stamina ultimates would be the only ones used and that the staff ults would collect dust.

That’s how it was for all of three weeks when people stopped trying to make the craz work it went the complete other way. If AoE reductions were that great the build would be used more on live as it’s available now.

did you not read the post?

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · September 2018

templesus wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ariades_swe wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

15% miss chance is > mitigation that 25% aoe dmg reduction.

You voted for keeping the pts 25% aoe reduction and not keeping the 15 % miss chance we have now on live in the evasion poll on pvp forums.
Stop lying about how you feel about evasion.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435787/lets-talk-about-those-pts-evasion-changes/p2

I voted to get rid of rng dodge chance.

But lets not pretend that its still not going make medium even more squishy?

I see you comment on literally EVERY thread as if you are a god tier player, so I looked your name up on YT and I see a clip of you playing stamden. Needless to say I turned it off after 20 seconds because you didn’t even put rally up. Was a good laugh.

God knows me and @leepalmer95 don’t see eye to eye on most things but not using a meta build or power is neither here or there. Generally I don’t use powers that don’t work for me and the way I fight. If he doesn’t need it for his build what’s that too anyone if you win the fight WITHOUT cheating how you win doesn’t matter how you did it.

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Over here talking about medium armor stamblades when you should really be worrying about how tanky heavy armor nbs will be. The healing morph of cloak is very strong right now, now add in 25% damage mitigation for most things you run into in pvp.

Major evasion will probably need to be toned down quite a bit from 25%

Again this will just not happen I actually use Bastion of The Heartland on a HeavyBlade for the AoE AND Siege damage reduction that extra 5% from players is pretty nice too it makes a difference yes but not as big as y’all are saying test the build before you comment. Dark Cloak is pure trash! A 5% max health heal every 1 for 3 seconds is never going to be good period. Even with 40k health that’s 2k a second. With it using magic it can’t be your main heal.

Ariades_swe · September 2018

templesus wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ariades_swe wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

15% miss chance is > mitigation that 25% aoe dmg reduction.

You voted for keeping the pts 25% aoe reduction and not keeping the 15 % miss chance we have now on live in the evasion poll on pvp forums.
Stop lying about how you feel about evasion.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435787/lets-talk-about-those-pts-evasion-changes/p2

I voted to get rid of rng dodge chance.

But lets not pretend that its still not going make medium even more squishy?

I see you comment on literally EVERY thread as if you are a god tier player, so I looked your name up on YT and I see a clip of you playing stamden. Needless to say I turned it off after 20 seconds because you didn’t even put rally up. Was a good laugh.

lol

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · September 2018

ll_Rev wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

You could use Blade Cloak and Leki or Bastion of The Heartland for this very buff where is this build on live? No where cause it’s just not a focus. Let’s remember a time before weapon ultimates when everyone was calling it, that the stamina ultimates would be the only ones used and that the staff ults would collect dust.

That’s how it was for all of three weeks when people stopped trying to make the craz work it went the complete other way. If AoE reductions were that great the build would be used more on live as it’s available now.

did you not read the post?

Read what? Math I know is wrong cause ZoS has not updated the way they calculate damage in a good while? Cause people see a “easy” source of AoE damage reduction and jump on the it’s op to my play style band wagon. Let me open your eyes to what you do not see.

AoEs can be cut by 25% on live Blade Cloak is a thing DW is used by most stamina builds extra weapon enchant, great damage, melee and range and it has a great bleed and weapons that can prove a bleed. This weapon line is being used so no it being DW only is a poor point.

Bastion of The Heartland has no drawbacks like Leki and added a general reduction of 5% from players and 20% from siege with the Scatter Shot meta in PvP and AoE trains this set has to be key to every build right, RIGHT!! No it great be underused cause AoE mitigation is 100% unless on single targets damage.

Let’s remember 100% of Nightblades, Sorcerers, Dragon Knights, Wardens and Templars have single target attacks on their bars right next to AoEs so hey this is not hitting as hard as it should time to single target then...

It really not at all a buff to survivability as you loss a power that has a chance to dodge any damage for one that only works on AoEs. Now call me crazy but if my jabs were hitting like wet noodles on my Templar I would Power of The Light their soul, put a Javelin in their face, Crit Charge on the FOTM (forums told me this is OP player) and Dizzying Swing that pretty face off. Cause who doesn’t have a single target attack on their build.

The_Brosteen · September 2018

Maryal wrote: »

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Just because you have a NB toon doesn't make your agenda less obvious ... in fact, it stands out like a sore thumb!.

If someone wants major evasion it's easy to get, no matter what class you are. Even before the upcoming patch, anyone could get AOE damage reduction by using deadly cloak (dual wield weapon ability).

You say NBs got a big buff, I say they got a big nerf. Many NB abilities got a big cost increase ... it wasn't that easy to sustain before, but it's going to be a lot more difficult now (that is, unless you are a gank build, but then again, no matter what class you are, gank builds don't need much to sustain).

Before you were tied to duel wield for the aoe mitigation but more importantly you had to use an additional skill slot.

Now stamblades who didnt use blade cloak before get that 25% aoe reduction without changing anything. Also they have a class skill that will grant it so stamblades now have 3 options for getting 25% aoe mitigation. That sounds like a pretty solid survivability buff to me.

No, 'tied to dual wield' is not a good statement ... that skill is awesome. It takes sneaking, invisible, cloaked NBs out of cloak (if they get near you), it damages enemies, and it gives AOE damage reduction. Alternatively, Leki's Focus is an armor set that also reduces AOE damage (good if you are using direct damage attacks and non-AOE healing). The point being we've had AOE damage reduction in the game for a long time and in the years we've had it, it didn't make anyone using it 'OP' ...

Now it's available through more sources ... so what! It didn't make anyone OP before, it's not going to now. It is helpful, you don't have to heal as much, but you won't be the only one using it ... players you are trying to kill will also be using it. It's not that big of a deal except when dealing with some of the more difficult pve content ... but it's not going to make anyone 'OP'.

It is a good skill, the point here is when certain things become more popular you see the masses call for nerfs. I'm fairly certain the new evasion will become the new thing to complain about.

To be clear, im all about this change. I think it will be situationally strong. But people will complain, just kinda how this song and damce goes.

LittlePinkDot · September 2018

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Disclaimer: I am a stamnb main who also plays stamplar, stamden and sporadically I healbot, so no bias here.

This pts so far has caused a wall of tiers: magsorc got *** so hard that it's even pointless to think of playing one in solo/small scale, soldier of anguish will be THE cancer of the patch, javelin got *** (debatable), but most importantly, stamnbs got buffed by a lot with the evasion change.
Medium stamnb is arguably the strongest solo/small scale class in the game atm, with little to no group utility, so let's say it is """balanced""" under this point of view, I don't have a problem with that. The problem lays in the fact that we are about to become extremely tankier due to the buff to shuffle. I say buff because the old evasion was not fundamental to stamnb, we had dodge rolls and cloak to make skills miss, our single target defense was good even without old evasion. What used to (still does on live) *** us HARD was well placed aoes (jabs, dbos, leaps, meteors that were not blocked, etc), which are now getting a straight 25% nerf against medium targets (rip templars against medium users). So, medium stamnb now have the possibility to reliably cloak skills, dodge single target attacks and resists 25% of every aoe (aka 80%+ of all ultis) in the game. I can understand that this makes sense and tbh, I'm happy with it, it will help medium classes perform well, but it CANNOT go live due to how strong stamnbs will become. Seriously, our strength in cyro would become godlike.
Now, evasion's change is even a stronger buff if we consider heavy nbs (in general, I'm also looking at you heavy magnb) . Blur will make heavy nbs almost immortal. Good heals, strong damage, 25% aoe mitigation, cloak, and a bit of dodge make these kind of setups ultra strong. Heavy nbs are already the strongest pvp setup in the game, the last thing they need is a buff. Seriously, please no.

Someone would argue "but but but 25% aoe reduction was already viable via blade cloak, y u QQing?". Simply put, to slot blade cloak you had to use dw (not a real sacrifice tbh), and sacrifice a skill slot for a skill that would randomly pull you out of stealth every 3s when hitting someone close to you. Worth it? No, totally no, but now... Now *** got real.

So, what could be a decent change to avoid a nb mania when the lizard patch goes live?
1) Make shuffle remove from stealth. That would make it's use a bit less brain dead.
2) Make rally pull you put of cloak: straight, direct nerf to stamnb's gameplay (and to ganking)
3) Reduce the values of major and minor evasion to 20% and 8%, giving shuffle the minor one, leaving the possibility for other medium classes to become a bit tankier if they slotted both shuffle and blade cloak (for the reasons listed above, this skill will not be used much by stamnb)
4) Give a 3h cast time to stamnb's character loading, making it impossible for anyone to play one.

Thoughts?

Ps: nobody will use shuffle in pve, so no need to think about those strange people (<3) in this debate.

The changes were PVE focused. ZoS will occasionally throw pvp a bone (shields crittable) but their main priority is PVE and they wont sacrifice PVE diversity for PVP diversity. The 25% aoe dmg reduction will help medium armour stam stay alive in vet dungeons and trials. ZoS wants stam characters to be a desirable choice for endgame pve that is currently dominated by mag.
But how do you buff Stams pve performance without also incidentally buffing them in pvp.
Mag was over performing in endgame pve by being able to just stand there and spam shields while stam has to block and roll dodge. But of course, incidentally this nerfed in mag in PVP.

If zos has to choose... Pve will always trump pvp.

TheDoomsdayMonster · September 2018

danno8 wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

"main stamnb " ROLF. I'm a main magsorc asking to keep cast time on shields, trust me brah, i main sorc

Medium armor stamblade is *** for small scale, any group dumping dawnbreakers is going to burst you instantly. The only viable medium armor build for small scale is with impregnable, and that´s because how broken impregnable is.
You are not a main stamnb (or if you are, you are completly clueless about the class), and you are not a solo/small scale player. Stop prending to be something you are not to try to justify absurd arguments. There isn´t a single thing in your post that is actually true, you dont even understand how mitigation works, a 25% tooltip in major evasion doesn´t equal a 25% damage reduction. The " (aka 80%+ of all ultis) " is the proof that you have NO CLUE what you are talking about, mitigation sources like evasion/protection/etc are multiplicative, no additive. The more mitigation you stack, the less you get.

Post like this one is why the class representative program is in place, to filter all this nonsense from players that don´t even understand the basic mechanics of ESO combat, and try to provide curated feedback to DEVs.

/topic

You should actually test this AoE reduction on the PTS.

I thought just as you did, and posted as much on the Templar feedback thread since I figured that Medium armour (lets say around 20% mitigation) and the new 25% AoE mitigation would work out to be [1-(.8*.75)]=40% total mitigation just with those two in multiplicative form.

Turns out the 25% was additive with resistance value and when test I was getting an EXACT 25% decrease in damage taken (from Puncturing Sweep) after activating the new Shuffle on PTS.

I'm not sure if this is a coding error with the new buff or what.

If that mitigation turns out to not be a mistake and is additive, then the value of my Spectre's Eye set will skyrocket...

TheDoomsdayMonster · September 2018

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Did I miss something?

You can use Shuffle if you’re in 5 heavy or 5 light, too?!

You cant use Shuffle with 5 Heavy or 5 Light, but you can craft or grind gear that gives Major Evasion...

There are several sets that do this...

Kalante · September 2018

I am looking forward for the crit to shields and no longer RNG fights. This might actually be a good patch.