New evasion on nb - a PvP perspective

Nerftheforums · September 2018

Disclaimer: I am a stamnb main who also plays stamplar, stamden and sporadically I healbot, so no bias here.

This pts so far has caused a wall of tiers: magsorc got *** so hard that it's even pointless to think of playing one in solo/small scale, soldier of anguish will be THE cancer of the patch, javelin got *** (debatable), but most importantly, stamnbs got buffed by a lot with the evasion change.
Medium stamnb is arguably the strongest solo/small scale class in the game atm, with little to no group utility, so let's say it is """balanced""" under this point of view, I don't have a problem with that. The problem lays in the fact that we are about to become extremely tankier due to the buff to shuffle. I say buff because the old evasion was not fundamental to stamnb, we had dodge rolls and cloak to make skills miss, our single target defense was good even without old evasion. What used to (still does on live) *** us HARD was well placed aoes (jabs, dbos, leaps, meteors that were not blocked, etc), which are now getting a straight 25% nerf against medium targets (rip templars against medium users). So, medium stamnb now have the possibility to reliably cloak skills, dodge single target attacks and resists 25% of every aoe (aka 80%+ of all ultis) in the game. I can understand that this makes sense and tbh, I'm happy with it, it will help medium classes perform well, but it CANNOT go live due to how strong stamnbs will become. Seriously, our strength in cyro would become godlike.
Now, evasion's change is even a stronger buff if we consider heavy nbs (in general, I'm also looking at you heavy magnb) . Blur will make heavy nbs almost immortal. Good heals, strong damage, 25% aoe mitigation, cloak, and a bit of dodge make these kind of setups ultra strong. Heavy nbs are already the strongest pvp setup in the game, the last thing they need is a buff. Seriously, please no.

Someone would argue "but but but 25% aoe reduction was already viable via blade cloak, y u QQing?". Simply put, to slot blade cloak you had to use dw (not a real sacrifice tbh), and sacrifice a skill slot for a skill that would randomly pull you out of stealth every 3s when hitting someone close to you. Worth it? No, totally no, but now... Now *** got real.

So, what could be a decent change to avoid a nb mania when the lizard patch goes live?
1) Make shuffle remove from stealth. That would make it's use a bit less brain dead.
2) Make rally pull you put of cloak: straight, direct nerf to stamnb's gameplay (and to ganking)
3) Reduce the values of major and minor evasion to 20% and 8%, giving shuffle the minor one, leaving the possibility for other medium classes to become a bit tankier if they slotted both shuffle and blade cloak (for the reasons listed above, this skill will not be used much by stamnb)
4) Give a 3h cast time to stamnb's character loading, making it impossible for anyone to play one.

Thoughts?

Ps: nobody will use shuffle in pve, so no need to think about those strange people (<3) in this debate.

Ariades_swe · September 2018

Agree with all you said.

VaranisArano · September 2018

LOL at option 4.

"4) Give a 3h cast time to stamnb's character loading, making it impossible for anyone to play one"

That might be kinder than what actually happened to magsorcs.

Ocelot9x · September 2018

The change to evasion is great but the class that will benefit the most is also the overerfoming one,so I’m not sure if I should be excited or sad

OrdoHermetica · September 2018

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Ps: nobody will use shuffle in pve, so no need to think about those strange people (<3) in this debate.

Oi! You can take Shuffle off of my PvE Stamsorc's backbar when you pry it from my cold, dead, disconnected hands! >:-(

OrdoHermetica · September 2018

Ocelot9x wrote: »

The change to evasion is great but the class that will benefit the most is also the overerfoming one,so I’m not sure if I should be excited or sad

As someone who plays a stamblade and a magblade as two of my PvP mains... lol. It's just kinda ridiculous. We really don't need any extra help being OP, thanks.

GreenSoup2HoT · September 2018

Honestly its a nerf to my dw/2h stamblade when i slot blade cloak. I use evasion and blade cloak. Blade cloak had some niche uses, pulls other cloakers out, executes, proc's enchants (can proc either now with new change). Was a nice speed buff too.

I guess now i can drop blade cloak for that pysijic ability to sprint around with reduce sprint cost. Now that crit buffs effect shields, may be worth using.

All though imagine heavy stam nb with the new Perfect Spectral Cloak weapons. Major protection for 3 seconds after using blade cloak.... people thought heavy stamblade was god mode now........

Ragnarock41 · September 2018

Javelin spam was a ridicilous zerg tool(especially with animation cancelling you can spam it with no animation whatsoever and its very easy to chain two javelins before the victim can break free) and as a result needed that change, It might not be a buff but its one of those changes that made the game a lot better, as for magsorcs I feel almost no pity. This is what they get for acting like shieldspam was totally fine.(It never was, and never will be, however I do not agree with cast times at all, cast times never work properly in ESO,proven by snipe,flurry,uppercut, all terribly broken abilities in different ways.)

For stamblades however, they still need their nerfs to cloak and overall sustain. (If it was up to me I would make cloak work similar to block, no magicka regen, magblade can already play without cloak.)

The shuffle buff is obviously going to push stamblade over the top, however the rest of the stamina classes needed that change as medium armor was totally unviable for most of them, stamblade is already so over the top for non group pvp, that the shuffle change doesn't even mean anything at this point.

As for stamplars, I'm really looking forward to play one next patch. I think they will be insane next patch, I'm only sad that Zenimax left it dead for an entire year before finally buffing them up.(seriously, what were you guys thinking?)

kadar · September 2018

Important to highlight that shuffle will only be effective against AOE damage. I suspect many solo/small scale NBs may choose to forego using shuffle at all and use that slot for other utility/mitigation options. Many NBs who play medium to largescale pvp were mostly already using bladecloak.

This will have an impact for sure, I don't know if it's a large buff to survivability tho.

GreenSoup2HoT · September 2018

The_Outsider wrote: »

Important to highlight that shuffle will only be effective against AOE damage. I suspect many solo/small scale NBs may choose to forego using shuffle at all and use that slot for other utility/mitigation options. Many NBs who play medium to largescale pvp were mostly already using bladecloak.

This will have an impact for sure, I don't know if it's a large buff to survivability tho.

Gives all bladecloak users the option to use that 1 pyijiic skill with sprint cost reduction and the minor crit buff (since shields can be crit). Kinda good. I already made the switch and after this change, im glad i get my AOE reduction back.

Ratzkifal · September 2018

If Sorcs wouldn't be gutted, then maybe NBs wouldn't be too strong anymore. Idk.

On a related note, anyone knows if Asylum DW adds 10seconds to the 3second major protection buff from blade cloak? It's "over time" after all and from blade cloak.

leepalmer95 · September 2018

15% miss chance is > mitigation that 25% aoe dmg reduction.

WreckfulAbandon · September 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

15% miss chance is > mitigation that 25% aoe dmg reduction.

I see more and more people rolling heavy armor NB because they see the writing on the wall and they're gonna be in a great place come Murkmire. Too great a place since the things needed to kill them are all gonna be weaker from this Evasion change. Jabs, Leap, and Dawnbreaker are some of the few equalizers other classes have to deal with NB's. I already see them running around easily bursting squishies and brawling with the best while having great mitigation and heals. My Jabs already hit weak enough with 5.5k weapon dmg vs these heavy bleedblades and I have to eat a dmg nerf next patch?? While dealing with bleeds incap and spectral bow from builds that can heal up ridiculously easily? I don't want to play heavy stamblade but that's what I'm gonna have to do to win.

But go ahead and tell me that it's all about buffing medium armor. You all want to buff medium armor so bad I'm gonna have to switch all my medium armor toons to heavy.

Tommy_The_Gun · September 2018

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Give a 3h cast time to stamnb's character loading, making it impossible for anyone to play one.

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Disclaimer: I am a stamnb main

susmitds · September 2018

So you are a stanNB main and want to wait 3 hours to login?

Nerftheforums · September 2018

Holy mother of cows, it was ironic. I know that probably joking about something is considered sinful for you, but c'mon. Chillax

Ariades_swe · September 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

15% miss chance is > mitigation that 25% aoe dmg reduction.

You voted for keeping the pts 25% aoe reduction and not keeping the 15 % miss chance we have now on live in the evasion poll on pvp forums.
Stop lying about how you feel about evasion.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435787/lets-talk-about-those-pts-evasion-changes/p2

BigBadVolk · September 2018

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Holy mother of cows, it was ironic. I know that probably joking about something is considered sinful for you, but c'mon. Chillax

nah the humor sense in the Forums is too damn low, also sssh keep mirage evasion for my heavymagblade next patch

Juhasow · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

So you are a stanNB main and want to wait 3 hours to login?

Well there are people that have magsorcs mains and they will gladly wait 6 months to login so...

keeno9881 · September 2018

lol make shuffle a 1 sec cast time

leepalmer95 · September 2018

Ariades_swe wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

15% miss chance is > mitigation that 25% aoe dmg reduction.

You voted for keeping the pts 25% aoe reduction and not keeping the 15 % miss chance we have now on live in the evasion poll on pvp forums.
Stop lying about how you feel about evasion.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435787/lets-talk-about-those-pts-evasion-changes/p2

I voted to get rid of rng dodge chance.

But lets not pretend that its still not going make medium even more squishy?

moosegod · September 2018

Dude the change is not going to make stamnb overperform any more. Medium will be more squishy than before against any single target damage as they now will take all of those hits with no rng dodge. I have had many stamnb escape because rng saved them from the finishing execute. They are also narrowing the dodge roll window so some players may find they're getting hit when they wouldn't before. HeavyNB also is taking a blow because it already has rng dodge and can use blade cloak for aoe reduction. My heavyNB friend is not looking forward to the change to evasion.

What this change is really going to do is buff groups even more. The Gossamer set is gonna be a new healer trend and if you pair it with transmutation their whole group takes less AoE and crit damage (the things that can kill a group). So rip any strategic siege and ult dump as it's now going to be much less effective against a good group.

Kadoin · September 2018

moosegod wrote: »

Dude the change is not going to make stamnb overperform any more. Medium will be more squishy than before against any single target damage as they now will take all of those hits with no rng dodge. I have had many stamnb escape because rng saved them from the finishing execute. They are also narrowing the dodge roll window so some players may find they're getting hit when they wouldn't before. HeavyNB also is taking a blow because it already has rng dodge and can use blade cloak for aoe reduction. My heavyNB friend is not looking forward to the change to evasion.

What this change is really going to do is buff groups even more. The Gossamer set is gonna be a new healer trend and if you pair it with transmutation their whole group takes less AoE and crit damage (the things that can kill a group). So rip any strategic siege and ult dump as it's now going to be much less effective against a good group.

And to do that, you have to be wearing light armor which took a nerf OR have more than one person with either set. Also Gossamer only works when a target's HP is reduced. Time your siege at the right time and they won't be benefitting from it. Gossamer was also worse with RNG chance IMO. I should know since I love dropping Warden trees on breeches with Gossamer + Transmutation now and spamming springs with troll king. Guess how many die?

Narvuntien · September 2018

As a StamNB main I like that people won't be able to passive dodge my incap strike

ManDraKE · September 2018

"main stamnb " ROLF. I'm a main magsorc asking to keep cast time on shields, trust me brah, i main sorc

Medium armor stamblade is *** for small scale, any group dumping dawnbreakers is going to burst you instantly. The only viable medium armor build for small scale is with impregnable, and that´s because how broken impregnable is.
You are not a main stamnb (or if you are, you are completly clueless about the class), and you are not a solo/small scale player. Stop prending to be something you are not to try to justify absurd arguments. There isn´t a single thing in your post that is actually true, you dont even understand how mitigation works, a 25% tooltip in major evasion doesn´t equal a 25% damage reduction. The " (aka 80%+ of all ultis) " is the proof that you have NO CLUE what you are talking about, mitigation sources like evasion/protection/etc are multiplicative, no additive. The more mitigation you stack, the less you get.

Post like this one is why the class representative program is in place, to filter all this nonsense from players that don´t even understand the basic mechanics of ESO combat, and try to provide curated feedback to DEVs.

/topic

Thogard · September 2018

Well said, OP.

Please disregard your critics. They’ve clearly never tested AOE mitigation before.

I agree that cloak needs to get looked at. sNBs will now be taking 25% less damage from AOE sources, which were the only sources that they couldn’t get 100% mitigation from due to cloak.

They could have run bladecloak before but that would have continuously popped them out of stealth, making them vulnerable to single target dmg.

Huge buff to stamblades.

Mystrius_Archaion · September 2018

1) Shuffle is worthless at just "8% reduced aoe damage taken". Nobody would slot it when they could slot a lot of other things. The developers do not want that as they buff underused skills to make them used more, as other patch notes have cited as reasoning for buff changes.

2) Blur gives major evasion also on nightblades. You would need that nerfed also, but that would make that also useless. There are even other ways to get this buff also.

3) If you're stealth-ganking then you don't plan on needing to fight it out or needing any defense other than cloak to completely avoid damage then you don't run blade cloak or shuffle, but everyone else who plans to fight it out can use it.

It doesn't need a nerf from current Blade Cloak value 25% and certainly not down to anything less than 20% or it won't be used at all due to the high opportunity cost or missing out on better things you could slot.

templesus · September 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ariades_swe wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

15% miss chance is > mitigation that 25% aoe dmg reduction.

You voted for keeping the pts 25% aoe reduction and not keeping the 15 % miss chance we have now on live in the evasion poll on pvp forums.
Stop lying about how you feel about evasion.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435787/lets-talk-about-those-pts-evasion-changes/p2

I voted to get rid of rng dodge chance.

But lets not pretend that its still not going make medium even more squishy?

I see you comment on literally EVERY thread as if you are a god tier player, so I looked your name up on YT and I see a clip of you playing stamden. Needless to say I turned it off after 20 seconds because you didn’t even put rally up. Was a good laugh.

The_Brosteen · September 2018

Over here talking about medium armor stamblades when you should really be worrying about how tanky heavy armor nbs will be. The healing morph of cloak is very strong right now, now add in 25% damage mitigation for most things you run into in pvp.

Major evasion will probably need to be toned down quite a bit from 25%

Septimus_Magna · September 2018

I agree with most of what you say, stamblade and stamden get buffed like crazy next patch.

My main got butchered so I will go with the class that works best.

Maryal · September 2018

Just because you have a NB toon doesn't make your agenda less obvious ... in fact, it stands out like a sore thumb!.

If someone wants major evasion it's easy to get, no matter what class you are. Even before the upcoming patch, anyone could get AOE damage reduction by using deadly cloak (dual wield weapon ability).

You say NBs got a big buff, I say they got a big nerf. Many NB abilities got a big cost increase ... it wasn't that easy to sustain before, but it's going to be a lot more difficult now (that is, unless you are a gank build, but then again, no matter what class you are, gank builds don't need much to sustain).