A Discussion About PvP Builds

Waffennacht · September 2018

I've read a lot on the forums and have come across many comments that I can not keep thinking about in terms of PvP builds.

Yes this is also in reference to some potential up coming changes.

"Magicka builds (primarily shield users) build for all offense"
"Magicka builds can stack all offensive stats and have tank like survivability"
Etc.

These types of comments have confused me greatly.

I have a few points

1. I think one of the most important concepts that needs to be kept in consideration (imo) is the fact Max Magicka/Max Stamina is inefficient when compared to sources of Spell damage/Weapon Damage.
- compare a set that provides Max Magicka vs Spell Damage; 1096 MM vs 129 SD with a conversion rate of 10.5:1 the Max Magicka is valued at 104 spell damage equivalent.

Stacking max resource stat is less efficient when dealing damage than stacking damage stat - even more so when you consider the number of damage modifiers vs number of max resource modifiers.

2. Consider where Max Stat sources come from
- unlike well-fitted or sturdy, Magicka has no armor trait that'll improve it's survivability. All Max Magicka stats must be obtained via Set Bonus, Glyphs, and Mundus; the exact same sources of resistance, sustain, mitigation and max resource. There's an exact opportunity cost to stack max resource (you cannot stack resistance + max resource). This also means a Resource Regen stat is considered an offensive stat (imo) because you can then stack more damage stat from a different source.

3. None of my DDs (in PvP) build for "survivability"
- A very odd concept to me. A typical Stam build I use could be running Bone Pirate, Veli, and Automaton. Because of Bone Pirate I can run all damage Glyphs and the warrior Mundus. I do not build for survivability as Roll Dodge is my main source of mitigation and requires 0 investment via sets; at most well fitted - which is an opportunity cost of at most 100 weapon damage for a potential 28% cost reduction (no Magicka user has a trait to reduce shield costs)

I suppose my main point here, is that overall, building for Max Resource Stat is actually a Disadvantage to survivability. Building for Max Damage Stat (which heals scale to) is far more efficient. Shields scaling to Max Magicka alone is a disadvantage - not an advantage.

Finally; I do not believe Magicka Shields should be compares to heals. I believe a more accurate comparison is to Roll Dodge and Block. Heals are necessary for all players in conjunction with Shields and or Dodge/Block. Essentially Shields negate a single GCD from a heavy hitting opponent (single) the same can be true for block and Dodge. The important consideration for both is while shield allows for more actions (not blocking/no dodging means you can cast) and is therefore very efficient 1v1; the counter is 1vX Shields have little value - compared to dodge or block that'll mitigate damage from all sources for that GCD.

While I'm sure some people have hinted at similar ideas I hadn't read anything that went into specifics.

I'm sure I forgot something that'll I think of later; just wanted to float some ideas out there.

Btw - if you noticed my absence - please don't get yourself in trouble

DeadlyRecluse · September 2018

I don't think different defensive mechanisms warrant direct comparison.

Heals=/=shields=/=block=/=cloak=/=passive mitigation etc. etc. etc.

Direct comparisons lead to all sorts of bizarre conflations and moves us away from a game that is complex, dynamic, and has real differences between builds.

CatchMeTrolling · September 2018

As far as Max Magicka classes like magblade and mag sorc can stack a good amount of max and spell damage. I’m sure those are the two most complained about classes when it comes to shields since you can easily get over 3k spell damage and over 40k max.

Then when it comes to survivability you don’t have to build for it because in this case your offense is your defense.

Minno · September 2018

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I don't think different defensive mechanisms warrant direct comparison.

Heals=/=shields=/=block=/=cloakescape mechanic=/=passive mitigation etc. etc. etc.

Direct comparisons lead to all sorts of bizarre conflations and moves us away from a game that is complex, dynamic, and has real differences between builds.

The only direct comparison we can make, is if a class/build has access to a majority of them.
I think we can find the most successful builds, and find out that they all use 3-4 out of 5 reliably (and I changed cloak to the bold since that is more accurate of a description).

Waffennacht · September 2018

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

As far as Max Magicka classes like magblade and mag sorc can stack a good amount of max and spell damage. I’m sure those are the two most complained about classes when it comes to shields since you can easily get over 3k spell damage and over 40k max.

Then when it comes to survivability you don’t have to build for it because in this case your offense is your defense.

I don't understand.

Compared to 7.5k weapon damage and heals that scale off of such; how is this less efficient than max Magicka? How is the Stam build's defense not tied into those max stats similarly to shields but at a more efficient rate?

I guess, how is a 34k max Stam 6k wpn damage Stam build catering to defensive stats while a mag build is not?

usmguy1234 · September 2018

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

As far as Max Magicka classes like magblade and mag sorc can stack a good amount of max and spell damage. I’m sure those are the two most complained about classes when it comes to shields since you can easily get over 3k spell damage and over 40k max.

Then when it comes to survivability you don’t have to build for it because in this case your offense is your defense.

Sorcerers are forced to do this because shields scale off of magicka and that's the only viable defense mechanism given to us. Stam can go high weapon damage and low stam and still have good defense and healing. If a sorc goes high spell damage and low magicka, they will get obliterated. So yeah, there's discrepancies between the two but not how you are thinking about it. Sorcs have very little setup possibilities compared to stam and that road always leads to stacking max magicka. Also, it's much more difficult to get resources back as a ranged character versus a melee character but that's another issue for another time.

CatchMeTrolling · September 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

As far as Max Magicka classes like magblade and mag sorc can stack a good amount of max and spell damage. I’m sure those are the two most complained about classes when it comes to shields since you can easily get over 3k spell damage and over 40k max.

Then when it comes to survivability you don’t have to build for it because in this case your offense is your defense.

Sorcerers are forced to do this because shields scale off of magicka and that's the only viable defense mechanism given to us. Stam can go high weapon damage and low stam and still have good defense and healing. If a sorc goes high spell damage and low magicka, they will get obliterated. So yeah, there's discrepancies between the two but not how you are thinking about it. Sorcs have very little setup possibilities compared to stam and that road always leads to stacking max magicka. Also, it's much more difficult to get resources back as a ranged character versus a melee character but that's another issue for another time.

How exactly am I thinking about it ?? You both are misconstruing my point. I was simply saying you can build for both max and spell damage, you don’t always have to make the choice between the two. And since you don’t those magic classes don’t have to build for survivability because their offense and defense are one in the same.

I play both stam and mag btw...I know the difference between the two...

Waffennacht · September 2018

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

As far as Max Magicka classes like magblade and mag sorc can stack a good amount of max and spell damage. I’m sure those are the two most complained about classes when it comes to shields since you can easily get over 3k spell damage and over 40k max.

Then when it comes to survivability you don’t have to build for it because in this case your offense is your defense.

Sorcerers are forced to do this because shields scale off of magicka and that's the only viable defense mechanism given to us. Stam can go high weapon damage and low stam and still have good defense and healing. If a sorc goes high spell damage and low magicka, they will get obliterated. So yeah, there's discrepancies between the two but not how you are thinking about it. Sorcs have very little setup possibilities compared to stam and that road always leads to stacking max magicka. Also, it's much more difficult to get resources back as a ranged character versus a melee character but that's another issue for another time.

How exactly am I thinking about it ?? You both are misconstruing my point. I was simply saying you can build for both max and spell damage, you don’t always have to make the choice between the two. And since you don’t those magic classes don’t have to build for survivability because their offense and defense are one in the same.

I play both stam and mag btw...I know the difference between the two...

Again, I'm confused. You say you can build for Max mag and max spell damage. This implies you cannot build for Max Stam and max weapon damage. You also imply max Stam and weapon damage do not increase Stam survivability - which it most certainly does (vigor and other heals; and roll dodge/block being Stam dependent)

I do not understand why you say Stam doesn't get to build for Max stats. What max stats are you sacrificing for survivability? Also, if you are, then I can see why a build isn't able to break a shield.

I also play Stam and mag, and have for a long time. I see 0 need for a Stam build to run any defensive sets - more so than any mag build

Minno · September 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

As far as Max Magicka classes like magblade and mag sorc can stack a good amount of max and spell damage. I’m sure those are the two most complained about classes when it comes to shields since you can easily get over 3k spell damage and over 40k max.

Then when it comes to survivability you don’t have to build for it because in this case your offense is your defense.

Sorcerers are forced to do this because shields scale off of magicka and that's the only viable defense mechanism given to us. Stam can go high weapon damage and low stam and still have good defense and healing. If a sorc goes high spell damage and low magicka, they will get obliterated. So yeah, there's discrepancies between the two but not how you are thinking about it. Sorcs have very little setup possibilities compared to stam and that road always leads to stacking max magicka. Also, it's much more difficult to get resources back as a ranged character versus a melee character but that's another issue for another time.

How exactly am I thinking about it ?? You both are misconstruing my point. I was simply saying you can build for both max and spell damage, you don’t always have to make the choice between the two. And since you don’t those magic classes don’t have to build for survivability because their offense and defense are one in the same.

I play both stam and mag btw...I know the difference between the two...

Again, I'm confused. You say you can build for Max mag and max spell damage. This implies you cannot build for Max Stam and max weapon damage. You also imply max Stam and weapon damage do not increase Stam survivability - which it most certainly does (vigor and other heals; and roll dodge/block being Stam dependent)

I do not understand why you say Stam doesn't get to build for Max stats. What max stats are you sacrificing for survivability? Also, if you are, then I can see why a build isn't able to break a shield.

I also play Stam and mag, and have for a long time. I see 0 need for a Stam build to run any defensive sets - more so than any mag build

Only one they seem to run is impreg, because it gives base stats and caps off burst. Mag builds don't have access to or flexibility in doing this, because we don't have:
- native speed
- a strong HOT that ticks passively outside a weapon line
- no access to armor ignoring bleeds.
- Ability to stack higher WD which strengthes both offense/defense via obvious dmg and vigor.
- 2 weapon lines that can provide additional healing abilities and defensive buffs while we have destro for damage and resto for healing with class abilities that are almost always under some suggestion for changing.
- heavy attacks that cannot be reflected increasing reliability in resource regen during combat(though countered by ele drain, but ele drain needs destro stamina HA does not).

IDK what mag needs to lessen the gap, but the new LA passives are important, as well as various abilities like templar restoring rune offsetting low stamina pools.

usmguy1234 · September 2018

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

As far as Max Magicka classes like magblade and mag sorc can stack a good amount of max and spell damage. I’m sure those are the two most complained about classes when it comes to shields since you can easily get over 3k spell damage and over 40k max.

Then when it comes to survivability you don’t have to build for it because in this case your offense is your defense.

Sorcerers are forced to do this because shields scale off of magicka and that's the only viable defense mechanism given to us. Stam can go high weapon damage and low stam and still have good defense and healing. If a sorc goes high spell damage and low magicka, they will get obliterated. So yeah, there's discrepancies between the two but not how you are thinking about it. Sorcs have very little setup possibilities compared to stam and that road always leads to stacking max magicka. Also, it's much more difficult to get resources back as a ranged character versus a melee character but that's another issue for another time.

How exactly am I thinking about it ?? You both are misconstruing my point. I was simply saying you can build for both max and spell damage, you don’t always have to make the choice between the two. And since you don’t those magic classes don’t have to build for survivability because their offense and defense are one in the same.

I play both stam and mag btw...I know the difference between the two...

Not exactly... not for pvp at least. High regen, high max mag are the really only viable options. I've tried everything on my sorc and nothing feels adequate but that... and sometimes even that isn't enough.

Minno · September 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

As far as Max Magicka classes like magblade and mag sorc can stack a good amount of max and spell damage. I’m sure those are the two most complained about classes when it comes to shields since you can easily get over 3k spell damage and over 40k max.

Then when it comes to survivability you don’t have to build for it because in this case your offense is your defense.

Sorcerers are forced to do this because shields scale off of magicka and that's the only viable defense mechanism given to us. Stam can go high weapon damage and low stam and still have good defense and healing. If a sorc goes high spell damage and low magicka, they will get obliterated. So yeah, there's discrepancies between the two but not how you are thinking about it. Sorcs have very little setup possibilities compared to stam and that road always leads to stacking max magicka. Also, it's much more difficult to get resources back as a ranged character versus a melee character but that's another issue for another time.

How exactly am I thinking about it ?? You both are misconstruing my point. I was simply saying you can build for both max and spell damage, you don’t always have to make the choice between the two. And since you don’t those magic classes don’t have to build for survivability because their offense and defense are one in the same.

I play both stam and mag btw...I know the difference between the two...

Not exactly... not for pvp at least. High regen, high max mag are the really only viable options. I've tried everything on my sorc and nothing feels adequate but that... and sometimes even that isn't enough.

That's because you will be fighting builds that can get 4k+ WD, while also getting a 36-39k stamina pool with 1700-2k regen, but near cap speeds and ability to rely on heavy attacks for additional regen.

You are almost at a disadvantage; exception being your utility/healing form class passives/abilities. Sorc needs a buff to those which was missing this patch. Mag bone pirate will be BIS next patch because it lessens this gap; 3xswift with all SD jewels/mundas will still give you 1700-2k regen but 35k max mag with willpower (and still hit a 15k stamina pool with tri food drink).

edit:
this is why im trying to make sure they don't nerf swift. Mag needs it more than stamina and none of the suggestions so far take this into account.

CatchMeTrolling · September 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

As far as Max Magicka classes like magblade and mag sorc can stack a good amount of max and spell damage. I’m sure those are the two most complained about classes when it comes to shields since you can easily get over 3k spell damage and over 40k max.

Then when it comes to survivability you don’t have to build for it because in this case your offense is your defense.

Sorcerers are forced to do this because shields scale off of magicka and that's the only viable defense mechanism given to us. Stam can go high weapon damage and low stam and still have good defense and healing. If a sorc goes high spell damage and low magicka, they will get obliterated. So yeah, there's discrepancies between the two but not how you are thinking about it. Sorcs have very little setup possibilities compared to stam and that road always leads to stacking max magicka. Also, it's much more difficult to get resources back as a ranged character versus a melee character but that's another issue for another time.

How exactly am I thinking about it ?? You both are misconstruing my point. I was simply saying you can build for both max and spell damage, you don’t always have to make the choice between the two. And since you don’t those magic classes don’t have to build for survivability because their offense and defense are one in the same.

I play both stam and mag btw...I know the difference between the two...

Again, I'm confused. You say you can build for Max mag and max spell damage. This implies you cannot build for Max Stam and max weapon damage. You also imply max Stam and weapon damage do not increase Stam survivability - which it most certainly does (vigor and other heals; and roll dodge/block being Stam dependent)

I do not understand why you say Stam doesn't get to build for Max stats. What max stats are you sacrificing for survivability? Also, if you are, then I can see why a build isn't able to break a shield.

I also play Stam and mag, and have for a long time. I see 0 need for a Stam build to run any defensive sets - more so than any mag build

No offense but wth are you talking about?. I’m not implying anything, you’re assuming because you’re looking for a point beyond what I’m saying....

And that’s your problem, ask questions if you don’t understand. The entire point was you can have a high max and spell damage at the same time on those characters, you don’t have to choose between the two. Nothing more, nothing less. So again what the hell are you talking about ?

CatchMeTrolling · September 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

As far as Max Magicka classes like magblade and mag sorc can stack a good amount of max and spell damage. I’m sure those are the two most complained about classes when it comes to shields since you can easily get over 3k spell damage and over 40k max.

Then when it comes to survivability you don’t have to build for it because in this case your offense is your defense.

Sorcerers are forced to do this because shields scale off of magicka and that's the only viable defense mechanism given to us. Stam can go high weapon damage and low stam and still have good defense and healing. If a sorc goes high spell damage and low magicka, they will get obliterated. So yeah, there's discrepancies between the two but not how you are thinking about it. Sorcs have very little setup possibilities compared to stam and that road always leads to stacking max magicka. Also, it's much more difficult to get resources back as a ranged character versus a melee character but that's another issue for another time.

How exactly am I thinking about it ?? You both are misconstruing my point. I was simply saying you can build for both max and spell damage, you don’t always have to make the choice between the two. And since you don’t those magic classes don’t have to build for survivability because their offense and defense are one in the same.

I play both stam and mag btw...I know the difference between the two...

Not exactly... not for pvp at least. High regen, high max mag are the really only viable options. I've tried everything on my sorc and nothing feels adequate but that... and sometimes even that isn't enough.

If you’re broke sure. But there’s more than enough food options and tri glyph options to have 40k max, over 3k spell damage and good regen.

Minno · September 2018

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

As far as Max Magicka classes like magblade and mag sorc can stack a good amount of max and spell damage. I’m sure those are the two most complained about classes when it comes to shields since you can easily get over 3k spell damage and over 40k max.

Then when it comes to survivability you don’t have to build for it because in this case your offense is your defense.

Sorcerers are forced to do this because shields scale off of magicka and that's the only viable defense mechanism given to us. Stam can go high weapon damage and low stam and still have good defense and healing. If a sorc goes high spell damage and low magicka, they will get obliterated. So yeah, there's discrepancies between the two but not how you are thinking about it. Sorcs have very little setup possibilities compared to stam and that road always leads to stacking max magicka. Also, it's much more difficult to get resources back as a ranged character versus a melee character but that's another issue for another time.

How exactly am I thinking about it ?? You both are misconstruing my point. I was simply saying you can build for both max and spell damage, you don’t always have to make the choice between the two. And since you don’t those magic classes don’t have to build for survivability because their offense and defense are one in the same.

I play both stam and mag btw...I know the difference between the two...

Not exactly... not for pvp at least. High regen, high max mag are the really only viable options. I've tried everything on my sorc and nothing feels adequate but that... and sometimes even that isn't enough.

If you’re broke sure. But there’s more than enough food options and tri glyph options to have 40k max, over 3k spell damage and good regen.

compared to 39-40k stamina, over 4.5K WD and better regen? I think that is the current argument; mag builds sacrifice more sustain/defense than stamina to reach offensive numbers.

Waffennacht · September 2018

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

As far as Max Magicka classes like magblade and mag sorc can stack a good amount of max and spell damage. I’m sure those are the two most complained about classes when it comes to shields since you can easily get over 3k spell damage and over 40k max.

Then when it comes to survivability you don’t have to build for it because in this case your offense is your defense.

Sorcerers are forced to do this because shields scale off of magicka and that's the only viable defense mechanism given to us. Stam can go high weapon damage and low stam and still have good defense and healing. If a sorc goes high spell damage and low magicka, they will get obliterated. So yeah, there's discrepancies between the two but not how you are thinking about it. Sorcs have very little setup possibilities compared to stam and that road always leads to stacking max magicka. Also, it's much more difficult to get resources back as a ranged character versus a melee character but that's another issue for another time.

How exactly am I thinking about it ?? You both are misconstruing my point. I was simply saying you can build for both max and spell damage, you don’t always have to make the choice between the two. And since you don’t those magic classes don’t have to build for survivability because their offense and defense are one in the same.

I play both stam and mag btw...I know the difference between the two...

Again, I'm confused. You say you can build for Max mag and max spell damage. This implies you cannot build for Max Stam and max weapon damage. You also imply max Stam and weapon damage do not increase Stam survivability - which it most certainly does (vigor and other heals; and roll dodge/block being Stam dependent)

I do not understand why you say Stam doesn't get to build for Max stats. What max stats are you sacrificing for survivability? Also, if you are, then I can see why a build isn't able to break a shield.

I also play Stam and mag, and have for a long time. I see 0 need for a Stam build to run any defensive sets - more so than any mag build

No offense but wth are you talking about?. I’m not implying anything, you’re assuming because you’re looking for a point beyond what I’m saying....

And that’s your problem, ask questions if you don’t understand. The entire point was you can have a high max and spell damage at the same time on those characters, you don’t have to choose between the two. Nothing more, nothing less. So again what the hell are you talking about ?

You can have a high Max and weapon damage at the same time on those characters, you don't have to choose the two; nothing more, nothing less.

So what's your point?

Both mag and Stam stack both resources; only Stam more efficiently

CatchMeTrolling · September 2018

Minno wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

As far as Max Magicka classes like magblade and mag sorc can stack a good amount of max and spell damage. I’m sure those are the two most complained about classes when it comes to shields since you can easily get over 3k spell damage and over 40k max.

Then when it comes to survivability you don’t have to build for it because in this case your offense is your defense.

Sorcerers are forced to do this because shields scale off of magicka and that's the only viable defense mechanism given to us. Stam can go high weapon damage and low stam and still have good defense and healing. If a sorc goes high spell damage and low magicka, they will get obliterated. So yeah, there's discrepancies between the two but not how you are thinking about it. Sorcs have very little setup possibilities compared to stam and that road always leads to stacking max magicka. Also, it's much more difficult to get resources back as a ranged character versus a melee character but that's another issue for another time.

How exactly am I thinking about it ?? You both are misconstruing my point. I was simply saying you can build for both max and spell damage, you don’t always have to make the choice between the two. And since you don’t those magic classes don’t have to build for survivability because their offense and defense are one in the same.

I play both stam and mag btw...I know the difference between the two...

Not exactly... not for pvp at least. High regen, high max mag are the really only viable options. I've tried everything on my sorc and nothing feels adequate but that... and sometimes even that isn't enough.

If you’re broke sure. But there’s more than enough food options and tri glyph options to have 40k max, over 3k spell damage and good regen.

compared to 39-40k stamina, over 4.5K WD and better regen? I think that is the current argument; mag builds sacrifice more sustain/defense than stamina to reach offensive numbers.

I’m not comparing the two...

CatchMeTrolling · September 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

As far as Max Magicka classes like magblade and mag sorc can stack a good amount of max and spell damage. I’m sure those are the two most complained about classes when it comes to shields since you can easily get over 3k spell damage and over 40k max.

Then when it comes to survivability you don’t have to build for it because in this case your offense is your defense.

Sorcerers are forced to do this because shields scale off of magicka and that's the only viable defense mechanism given to us. Stam can go high weapon damage and low stam and still have good defense and healing. If a sorc goes high spell damage and low magicka, they will get obliterated. So yeah, there's discrepancies between the two but not how you are thinking about it. Sorcs have very little setup possibilities compared to stam and that road always leads to stacking max magicka. Also, it's much more difficult to get resources back as a ranged character versus a melee character but that's another issue for another time.

How exactly am I thinking about it ?? You both are misconstruing my point. I was simply saying you can build for both max and spell damage, you don’t always have to make the choice between the two. And since you don’t those magic classes don’t have to build for survivability because their offense and defense are one in the same.

I play both stam and mag btw...I know the difference between the two...

Again, I'm confused. You say you can build for Max mag and max spell damage. This implies you cannot build for Max Stam and max weapon damage. You also imply max Stam and weapon damage do not increase Stam survivability - which it most certainly does (vigor and other heals; and roll dodge/block being Stam dependent)

I do not understand why you say Stam doesn't get to build for Max stats. What max stats are you sacrificing for survivability? Also, if you are, then I can see why a build isn't able to break a shield.

I also play Stam and mag, and have for a long time. I see 0 need for a Stam build to run any defensive sets - more so than any mag build

No offense but wth are you talking about?. I’m not implying anything, you’re assuming because you’re looking for a point beyond what I’m saying....

And that’s your problem, ask questions if you don’t understand. The entire point was you can have a high max and spell damage at the same time on those characters, you don’t have to choose between the two. Nothing more, nothing less. So again what the hell are you talking about ?

You can have a high Max and weapon damage at the same time on those characters, you don't have to choose the two; nothing more, nothing less.

So what's your point?

Both mag and Stam stack both resources; only Stam more efficiently

Told you my point. You’re purposely missing it cause again you’re looking for more than what I’m telling you. There’s a big misconception that you have to choose mag or spell damage, I’m telling you magblade and sorc do not have to choose between the two.

SneaK · September 2018

I’m not really sure what the goal is of the post.

It seems like you are stating that the way shields were (pre-Murk) was a flawed system, being that stacking max mag wasn’t the best way to be defensive, and stacking max SD doesn’t help shields (pretty sure the resistance changes addresses this exact thing). and you’re also stating that dodge roll builds are effective as is.
???

Anyway, I think this shake up to shields will turn out some interesting builds. But I also think Zeni needs to find a way to make Sorc LA builds relevant without having to build around shields. IMO this would be a great opportunity to rework the Deadric Summoning skill line. The shield change without other options for healing/damage/CC/escapabity is going to greatly limit LA Sorc viability in PvP. The other classes are impacted much less, as they have other utilities at their disposal.

Waffennacht · September 2018

SneaK wrote: »

I’m not really sure what the goal is of the post.

It seems like you are stating that the way shields were (pre-Murk) was a flawed system, being that stacking max mag wasn’t the best way to be defensive, and stacking max SD doesn’t help shields (pretty sure the resistance changes addresses this exact thing). and you’re also stating that dodge roll builds are effective as is.
???

Anyway, I think this shake up to shields will turn out some interesting builds. But I also think Zeni needs to find a way to make Sorc LA builds relevant without having to build around shields. IMO this would be a great opportunity to rework the Deadric Summoning skill line. The shield change without other options for healing/damage/CC/escapabity is going to greatly limit LA Sorc viability in PvP. The other classes are impacted much less, as they have other utilities at their disposal.

I wanted to discuss, most specifically - what people mean when they stated "you don't have to build defensively because Shields allowed you to stack max Magicka and be both high damage dealing and have high defense" especially when defending nerfs

Because that very same logic can be used to claim roll dodge and block, vigor, rally are also over performing because you can also stack heavily into max Stam and weapon damage because they scale to such. And at a far more efficient rate than Shields.

In fact that logic would imply stamina in general is over performing as it also has access to armor traits that significantly reduce these defensive mechanics' costs.

- this is in regards to PvP only.

- directly concerning shield changes. The cast time and or cap to annulment and conjured ward with the addition of increased duration and resistance is actually an interesting idea that alone really is achieving their goals in PvP and PvE...

It gets blown away by them being able to take critical damage; especially in conjunction with taking enchantments and status effects etc.

The crit damage is just too much to even pretend to use mag sorc (and other light armor shield using builds)

The fact just about everything is dodgeable at 26m means I'll definitely be sticking with Stam sorc; dodge roll + passive 46% AoE dmg mitigation

moosegod · September 2018

In reference to OP,

Recovery stats are not offensive, you almost prove that yourself in your post. Yes it allows you to get damage in other sources but you're still dedicating a source to defense. By running BP you can now use damage glyphs but you're also giving up a potential damage set for being able to sustain and survive.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Because of Bone Pirate I can run all damage Glyphs and the warrior Mundus. I do not build for survivability as Roll Dodge is my main source of mitigation and requires 0 investment via sets; at most well fitted - which is an opportunity cost of at most 100 weapon damage for a potential 28% cost reduction

By using BP you're investing a set into sustain which is, as I said, survivability. A stam build without any way to sustain their resource is a gank build and will not make it far past the first burst. You will not be able to keep up roll dodge Xv1 without sustain, in the same way a mag build couldn't use shields (also you're forgetting mag builds can still roll too and is viable with well fitted before shields can be crit). Also a mag form of well fitted isn't as necessary because shields do not increase in cost the more you use them while roll dodge does.

Light and medium armour are pure damage gear types. They survive by mitigating damage through secondary means. Whether it's using roll dodge or shields builds using these armour sets get their defense through recovery so they can sustain their use of mitigation. Heavy armour can be used by either spec and mitigates damage through just being tough. LA or MA cannot take much damage without their respective defense currently active and since that defense drains stats then recovering that resource is a form of defense as well. Yes, recovery has offensive qualities by allowing damage skills to be used but dismissing the the defensive qualities would be ignorant.

Waffennacht · September 2018

moosegod wrote: »

In reference to OP,

Recovery stats are not offensive, you almost prove that yourself in your post. Yes it allows you to get damage in other sources but you're still dedicating a source to defense. By running BP you can now use damage glyphs but you're also giving up a potential damage set for being able to sustain and survive.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Because of Bone Pirate I can run all damage Glyphs and the warrior Mundus. I do not build for survivability as Roll Dodge is my main source of mitigation and requires 0 investment via sets; at most well fitted - which is an opportunity cost of at most 100 weapon damage for a potential 28% cost reduction

By using BP you're investing a set into sustain which is, as I said, survivability. A stam build without any way to sustain their resource is a gank build and will not make it far past the first burst. You will not be able to keep up roll dodge Xv1 without sustain, in the same way a mag build couldn't use shields (also you're forgetting mag builds can still roll too and is viable with well fitted before shields can be crit). Also a mag form of well fitted isn't as necessary because shields do not increase in cost the more you use them while roll dodge does.

Light and medium armour are pure damage gear types. They survive by mitigating damage through secondary means. Whether it's using roll dodge or shields builds using these armour sets get their defense through recovery so they can sustain their use of mitigation. Heavy armour can be used by either spec and mitigates damage through just being tough. LA or MA cannot take much damage without their respective defense currently active and since that defense drains stats then recovering that resource is a form of defense as well. Yes, recovery has offensive qualities by allowing damage skills to be used but dismissing the the defensive qualities would be ignorant.

In my opinion recovery stats are offensive as both mag and Stam have a minimum Regen stat necessity to be a viable PvP build.

From my experience the Regen needed is higher for a mag build - but I am not using this as a point lol

How you go about reaching this minimum has many venues. Once you reach it you can stack as much as you want into any other stat.

And I got side tracked and lost my train of thought...

SneaK · September 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

I’m not really sure what the goal is of the post.

It seems like you are stating that the way shields were (pre-Murk) was a flawed system, being that stacking max mag wasn’t the best way to be defensive, and stacking max SD doesn’t help shields (pretty sure the resistance changes addresses this exact thing). and you’re also stating that dodge roll builds are effective as is.
???

Anyway, I think this shake up to shields will turn out some interesting builds. But I also think Zeni needs to find a way to make Sorc LA builds relevant without having to build around shields. IMO this would be a great opportunity to rework the Deadric Summoning skill line. The shield change without other options for healing/damage/CC/escapabity is going to greatly limit LA Sorc viability in PvP. The other classes are impacted much less, as they have other utilities at their disposal.

I wanted to discuss, most specifically - what people mean when they stated "you don't have to build defensively because Shields allowed you to stack max Magicka and be both high damage dealing and have high defense" especially when defending nerfs

Because that very same logic can be used to claim roll dodge and block, vigor, rally are also over performing because you can also stack heavily into max Stam and weapon damage because they scale to such. And at a far more efficient rate than Shields.

In fact that logic would imply stamina in general is over performing as it also has access to armor traits that significantly reduce these defensive mechanics' costs.

- this is in regards to PvP only.

- directly concerning shield changes. The cast time and or cap to annulment and conjured ward with the addition of increased duration and resistance is actually an interesting idea that alone really is achieving their goals in PvP and PvE...

It gets blown away by them being able to take critical damage; especially in conjunction with taking enchantments and status effects etc.

The crit damage is just too much to even pretend to use mag sorc (and other light armor shield using builds)

The fact just about everything is dodgeable at 26m means I'll definitely be sticking with Stam sorc; dodge roll + passive 46% AoE dmg mitigation

10-4 on topic of post.

I’d say it’s opinion though that you think roll dodge stam builds are more efficient than shield stacking Sorcs, pre-Murk I’m assuming we were talking about... the common dominator for LA Sorcs being pigeon holed to a playstyle was shields and how they worked. Even if Sorcs had other avenues other than shields 99/100 Sorcs would have chosen the max mag shield builds cause it performed so well (for years, as you know). Now the problem is they reworked shields without given options to the LA Sorc playstyle to survive.. It’s obvious the shield changes are crippling to LA Sorcs, but just because the way a stam class builds could be similar doesn’t mean it’s apples to apples. I think it’s a really difficult comparison and it makes my brain hurt.

They need to help the LA Sorc out either way.

Amdar_Godkiller · September 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

moosegod wrote: »

In reference to OP,

Recovery stats are not offensive, you almost prove that yourself in your post. Yes it allows you to get damage in other sources but you're still dedicating a source to defense. By running BP you can now use damage glyphs but you're also giving up a potential damage set for being able to sustain and survive.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Because of Bone Pirate I can run all damage Glyphs and the warrior Mundus. I do not build for survivability as Roll Dodge is my main source of mitigation and requires 0 investment via sets; at most well fitted - which is an opportunity cost of at most 100 weapon damage for a potential 28% cost reduction

By using BP you're investing a set into sustain which is, as I said, survivability. A stam build without any way to sustain their resource is a gank build and will not make it far past the first burst. You will not be able to keep up roll dodge Xv1 without sustain, in the same way a mag build couldn't use shields (also you're forgetting mag builds can still roll too and is viable with well fitted before shields can be crit). Also a mag form of well fitted isn't as necessary because shields do not increase in cost the more you use them while roll dodge does.

Light and medium armour are pure damage gear types. They survive by mitigating damage through secondary means. Whether it's using roll dodge or shields builds using these armour sets get their defense through recovery so they can sustain their use of mitigation. Heavy armour can be used by either spec and mitigates damage through just being tough. LA or MA cannot take much damage without their respective defense currently active and since that defense drains stats then recovering that resource is a form of defense as well. Yes, recovery has offensive qualities by allowing damage skills to be used but dismissing the the defensive qualities would be ignorant.

In my opinion recovery stats are offensive as both mag and Stam have a minimum Regen stat necessity to be a viable PvP build.

From my experience the Regen needed is higher for a mag build - but I am not using this as a point lol

How you go about reaching this minimum has many venues. Once you reach it you can stack as much as you want into any other stat.

And I got side tracked and lost my train of thought...

Regen is less valuable to stam builds because almost everything we do CUTS OFF OUR RECOVERY.

Imagine if casting a shield prevented you from recovering magicka... Now to make matters worse, there are probably a dozen mag sets that provide alternative means of or massive buffs towards recovering magicka (prisoners, lich (OP), bloodthorn (OP), magicka furnace (better than the stam equivalent), archmage, desert rose (OP), syrabane (OP with a frost staff), worm (OP), alteration mastery (OP), warlock (decent), engine guardian (OP), etc).

For stam builds you have that dungeon set that is basically a 50% crappier version of magicka furnace, barkskin which only provides the equivalent of 400 stam recovery if you are facing someone that uses immobilizations every 5 seconds and it comes with no damage bonuses, engine guardian or sentinel (the former being powerful but often unreliable and the latter requiring you to be a stationary target to receive any benefit, essence thief (unusable in its current state), Hunt leader (for all the pet stam builds), Kyne's Kiss (impossibly low proc chance), and HIrcine's veneer (more helpful in terms of group utility than individual sustain).

Only barkskin and engine guardian are practical in any sense and choosing them requires you to receive 0 set bonuses towards damage (1 max health, 1 resistance, 1 stam recovery, and 1 health recovery, so yuck).

Also, there's no staminasteal debuff and we don't get a skilll that allows us to trade health for stamina.

Now to top it all off, there's been a bug in the game for about a year that will randomly cause the game to think you are sprinting when you are not, cutting off your stam recovery AND draining it at RANDOM.

That's the situation.

Waffennacht · September 2018

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

moosegod wrote: »

In reference to OP,

Recovery stats are not offensive, you almost prove that yourself in your post. Yes it allows you to get damage in other sources but you're still dedicating a source to defense. By running BP you can now use damage glyphs but you're also giving up a potential damage set for being able to sustain and survive.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Because of Bone Pirate I can run all damage Glyphs and the warrior Mundus. I do not build for survivability as Roll Dodge is my main source of mitigation and requires 0 investment via sets; at most well fitted - which is an opportunity cost of at most 100 weapon damage for a potential 28% cost reduction

By using BP you're investing a set into sustain which is, as I said, survivability. A stam build without any way to sustain their resource is a gank build and will not make it far past the first burst. You will not be able to keep up roll dodge Xv1 without sustain, in the same way a mag build couldn't use shields (also you're forgetting mag builds can still roll too and is viable with well fitted before shields can be crit). Also a mag form of well fitted isn't as necessary because shields do not increase in cost the more you use them while roll dodge does.

Light and medium armour are pure damage gear types. They survive by mitigating damage through secondary means. Whether it's using roll dodge or shields builds using these armour sets get their defense through recovery so they can sustain their use of mitigation. Heavy armour can be used by either spec and mitigates damage through just being tough. LA or MA cannot take much damage without their respective defense currently active and since that defense drains stats then recovering that resource is a form of defense as well. Yes, recovery has offensive qualities by allowing damage skills to be used but dismissing the the defensive qualities would be ignorant.

In my opinion recovery stats are offensive as both mag and Stam have a minimum Regen stat necessity to be a viable PvP build.

From my experience the Regen needed is higher for a mag build - but I am not using this as a point lol

How you go about reaching this minimum has many venues. Once you reach it you can stack as much as you want into any other stat.

And I got side tracked and lost my train of thought...

Regen is less valuable to stam builds because almost everything we do CUTS OFF OUR RECOVERY.

Imagine if casting a shield prevented you from recovering magicka... Now to make matters worse, there are probably a dozen mag sets that provide alternative means of or massive buffs towards recovering magicka (prisoners, lich (OP), bloodthorn (OP), magicka furnace (better than the stam equivalent), archmage, desert rose (OP), syrabane (OP with a frost staff), worm (OP), alteration mastery (OP), warlock (decent), engine guardian (OP), etc).

For stam builds you have that dungeon set that is basically a 50% crappier version of magicka furnace, barkskin which only provides the equivalent of 400 stam recovery if you are facing someone that uses immobilizations every 5 seconds and it comes with no damage bonuses, engine guardian or sentinel (the former being powerful but often unreliable and the latter requiring you to be a stationary target to receive any benefit, essence thief (unusable in its current state), Hunt leader (for all the pet stam builds), Kyne's Kiss (impossibly low proc chance), and HIrcine's veneer (more helpful in terms of group utility than individual sustain).

Only barkskin and engine guardian are practical in any sense and choosing them requires you to receive 0 set bonuses towards damage (1 max health, 1 resistance, 1 stam recovery, and 1 health recovery, so yuck).

Also, there's no staminasteal debuff and we don't get a skilll that allows us to trade health for stamina.

Now to top it all off, there's been a bug in the game for about a year that will randomly cause the game to think you are sprinting when you are not, cutting off your stam recovery AND draining it at RANDOM.

That's the situation.

If you truly believe all those sets are over powered, then the game needs almost a complete rework of all sets

Minno · September 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

moosegod wrote: »

In reference to OP,

Recovery stats are not offensive, you almost prove that yourself in your post. Yes it allows you to get damage in other sources but you're still dedicating a source to defense. By running BP you can now use damage glyphs but you're also giving up a potential damage set for being able to sustain and survive.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Because of Bone Pirate I can run all damage Glyphs and the warrior Mundus. I do not build for survivability as Roll Dodge is my main source of mitigation and requires 0 investment via sets; at most well fitted - which is an opportunity cost of at most 100 weapon damage for a potential 28% cost reduction

By using BP you're investing a set into sustain which is, as I said, survivability. A stam build without any way to sustain their resource is a gank build and will not make it far past the first burst. You will not be able to keep up roll dodge Xv1 without sustain, in the same way a mag build couldn't use shields (also you're forgetting mag builds can still roll too and is viable with well fitted before shields can be crit). Also a mag form of well fitted isn't as necessary because shields do not increase in cost the more you use them while roll dodge does.

Light and medium armour are pure damage gear types. They survive by mitigating damage through secondary means. Whether it's using roll dodge or shields builds using these armour sets get their defense through recovery so they can sustain their use of mitigation. Heavy armour can be used by either spec and mitigates damage through just being tough. LA or MA cannot take much damage without their respective defense currently active and since that defense drains stats then recovering that resource is a form of defense as well. Yes, recovery has offensive qualities by allowing damage skills to be used but dismissing the the defensive qualities would be ignorant.

In my opinion recovery stats are offensive as both mag and Stam have a minimum Regen stat necessity to be a viable PvP build.

From my experience the Regen needed is higher for a mag build - but I am not using this as a point lol

How you go about reaching this minimum has many venues. Once you reach it you can stack as much as you want into any other stat.

And I got side tracked and lost my train of thought...

Regen is less valuable to stam builds because almost everything we do CUTS OFF OUR RECOVERY.

Imagine if casting a shield prevented you from recovering magicka... Now to make matters worse, there are probably a dozen mag sets that provide alternative means of or massive buffs towards recovering magicka (prisoners, lich (OP), bloodthorn (OP), magicka furnace (better than the stam equivalent), archmage, desert rose (OP), syrabane (OP with a frost staff), worm (OP), alteration mastery (OP), warlock (decent), engine guardian (OP), etc).

For stam builds you have that dungeon set that is basically a 50% crappier version of magicka furnace, barkskin which only provides the equivalent of 400 stam recovery if you are facing someone that uses immobilizations every 5 seconds and it comes with no damage bonuses, engine guardian or sentinel (the former being powerful but often unreliable and the latter requiring you to be a stationary target to receive any benefit, essence thief (unusable in its current state), Hunt leader (for all the pet stam builds), Kyne's Kiss (impossibly low proc chance), and HIrcine's veneer (more helpful in terms of group utility than individual sustain).

Only barkskin and engine guardian are practical in any sense and choosing them requires you to receive 0 set bonuses towards damage (1 max health, 1 resistance, 1 stam recovery, and 1 health recovery, so yuck).

Also, there's no staminasteal debuff and we don't get a skilll that allows us to trade health for stamina.

Now to top it all off, there's been a bug in the game for about a year that will randomly cause the game to think you are sprinting when you are not, cutting off your stam recovery AND draining it at RANDOM.

That's the situation.

If you truly believe all those sets are over powered, then the game needs almost a complete rework of all sets

Should we tell him he is getting Stam Alt Mastery in a week or 2? lol

ccmedaddy · September 2018

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

moosegod wrote: »

In reference to OP,

Recovery stats are not offensive, you almost prove that yourself in your post. Yes it allows you to get damage in other sources but you're still dedicating a source to defense. By running BP you can now use damage glyphs but you're also giving up a potential damage set for being able to sustain and survive.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Because of Bone Pirate I can run all damage Glyphs and the warrior Mundus. I do not build for survivability as Roll Dodge is my main source of mitigation and requires 0 investment via sets; at most well fitted - which is an opportunity cost of at most 100 weapon damage for a potential 28% cost reduction

By using BP you're investing a set into sustain which is, as I said, survivability. A stam build without any way to sustain their resource is a gank build and will not make it far past the first burst. You will not be able to keep up roll dodge Xv1 without sustain, in the same way a mag build couldn't use shields (also you're forgetting mag builds can still roll too and is viable with well fitted before shields can be crit). Also a mag form of well fitted isn't as necessary because shields do not increase in cost the more you use them while roll dodge does.

Light and medium armour are pure damage gear types. They survive by mitigating damage through secondary means. Whether it's using roll dodge or shields builds using these armour sets get their defense through recovery so they can sustain their use of mitigation. Heavy armour can be used by either spec and mitigates damage through just being tough. LA or MA cannot take much damage without their respective defense currently active and since that defense drains stats then recovering that resource is a form of defense as well. Yes, recovery has offensive qualities by allowing damage skills to be used but dismissing the the defensive qualities would be ignorant.

In my opinion recovery stats are offensive as both mag and Stam have a minimum Regen stat necessity to be a viable PvP build.

From my experience the Regen needed is higher for a mag build - but I am not using this as a point lol

How you go about reaching this minimum has many venues. Once you reach it you can stack as much as you want into any other stat.

And I got side tracked and lost my train of thought...

Regen is less valuable to stam builds because almost everything we do CUTS OFF OUR RECOVERY.

Imagine if casting a shield prevented you from recovering magicka... Now to make matters worse, there are probably a dozen mag sets that provide alternative means of or massive buffs towards recovering magicka (prisoners, lich (OP), bloodthorn (OP), magicka furnace (better than the stam equivalent), archmage, desert rose (OP), syrabane (OP with a frost staff), worm (OP), alteration mastery (OP), warlock (decent), engine guardian (OP), etc).

For stam builds you have that dungeon set that is basically a 50% crappier version of magicka furnace, barkskin which only provides the equivalent of 400 stam recovery if you are facing someone that uses immobilizations every 5 seconds and it comes with no damage bonuses, engine guardian or sentinel (the former being powerful but often unreliable and the latter requiring you to be a stationary target to receive any benefit, essence thief (unusable in its current state), Hunt leader (for all the pet stam builds), Kyne's Kiss (impossibly low proc chance), and HIrcine's veneer (more helpful in terms of group utility than individual sustain).

Only barkskin and engine guardian are practical in any sense and choosing them requires you to receive 0 set bonuses towards damage (1 max health, 1 resistance, 1 stam recovery, and 1 health recovery, so yuck).

Also, there's no staminasteal debuff and we don't get a skilll that allows us to trade health for stamina.

Now to top it all off, there's been a bug in the game for about a year that will randomly cause the game to think you are sprinting when you are not, cutting off your stam recovery AND draining it at RANDOM.

That's the situation.

Tl;dr: grass always seems greener on the other side

Kartalin · September 2018

The trade off though for all those sets that help regain magicka is that stamina gets these heavy armor sets that are tailor made for well timed burst: fury, truth, veiled heritance, seventh legion and the like. No magicka equivalents exist for those. And these sets are what enable a lot of small scale stamina groups to run around with seeming impunity.

CatchMeTrolling · September 2018

Can’t have a serious discussion about this if you don’t include every factor associated with mag and stam.

While stam has high damage, a strong hot, the best ult across the board, more chances to sprint /roll dodge, more sustain to do both, mobility, easier sustain tools to recover stam or keep stam up etc. magic offers utility, the best defensive sets in the game, zerg busting, the best group synergy, powerful shields, decent hots, probably the best at warding off a zerg while also being the best zergers etc.

It’s not an easy comparison because you really shouldn’t compare the two. Can’t even balance both variations the same way.

Waffennacht · September 2018

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Can’t have a serious discussion about this if you don’t include every factor associated with mag and stam.

While stam has high damage, a strong hot, the best ult across the board, more chances to sprint /roll dodge, more sustain to do both, mobility, easier sustain tools to recover stam or keep stam up etc. magic offers utility, the best defensive sets in the game, zerg busting, the best group synergy, powerful shields, decent hots, probably the best at warding off a zerg while also being the best zergers etc.

It’s not an easy comparison because you really shouldn’t compare the two. Can’t even balance both variations the same way.

You make a good post.

I would say there is are significant trade offs for all forms of builds.

Personally I do not feel Magicka has or will have an advantage when will building for survivability/damage over stamina in PvP; this would be my biggest take away from me. My reasons listed in the OP

Edit: even when incorporating the other aspects of utility brought by both forms (i.e. block, set availability, weapon selection etc)

Amdar_Godkiller · September 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

moosegod wrote: »

In reference to OP,

Recovery stats are not offensive, you almost prove that yourself in your post. Yes it allows you to get damage in other sources but you're still dedicating a source to defense. By running BP you can now use damage glyphs but you're also giving up a potential damage set for being able to sustain and survive.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Because of Bone Pirate I can run all damage Glyphs and the warrior Mundus. I do not build for survivability as Roll Dodge is my main source of mitigation and requires 0 investment via sets; at most well fitted - which is an opportunity cost of at most 100 weapon damage for a potential 28% cost reduction

By using BP you're investing a set into sustain which is, as I said, survivability. A stam build without any way to sustain their resource is a gank build and will not make it far past the first burst. You will not be able to keep up roll dodge Xv1 without sustain, in the same way a mag build couldn't use shields (also you're forgetting mag builds can still roll too and is viable with well fitted before shields can be crit). Also a mag form of well fitted isn't as necessary because shields do not increase in cost the more you use them while roll dodge does.

Light and medium armour are pure damage gear types. They survive by mitigating damage through secondary means. Whether it's using roll dodge or shields builds using these armour sets get their defense through recovery so they can sustain their use of mitigation. Heavy armour can be used by either spec and mitigates damage through just being tough. LA or MA cannot take much damage without their respective defense currently active and since that defense drains stats then recovering that resource is a form of defense as well. Yes, recovery has offensive qualities by allowing damage skills to be used but dismissing the the defensive qualities would be ignorant.

In my opinion recovery stats are offensive as both mag and Stam have a minimum Regen stat necessity to be a viable PvP build.

From my experience the Regen needed is higher for a mag build - but I am not using this as a point lol

How you go about reaching this minimum has many venues. Once you reach it you can stack as much as you want into any other stat.

And I got side tracked and lost my train of thought...

Regen is less valuable to stam builds because almost everything we do CUTS OFF OUR RECOVERY.

Imagine if casting a shield prevented you from recovering magicka... Now to make matters worse, there are probably a dozen mag sets that provide alternative means of or massive buffs towards recovering magicka (prisoners, lich (OP), bloodthorn (OP), magicka furnace (better than the stam equivalent), archmage, desert rose (OP), syrabane (OP with a frost staff), worm (OP), alteration mastery (OP), warlock (decent), engine guardian (OP), etc).

For stam builds you have that dungeon set that is basically a 50% crappier version of magicka furnace, barkskin which only provides the equivalent of 400 stam recovery if you are facing someone that uses immobilizations every 5 seconds and it comes with no damage bonuses, engine guardian or sentinel (the former being powerful but often unreliable and the latter requiring you to be a stationary target to receive any benefit, essence thief (unusable in its current state), Hunt leader (for all the pet stam builds), Kyne's Kiss (impossibly low proc chance), and HIrcine's veneer (more helpful in terms of group utility than individual sustain).

Only barkskin and engine guardian are practical in any sense and choosing them requires you to receive 0 set bonuses towards damage (1 max health, 1 resistance, 1 stam recovery, and 1 health recovery, so yuck).

Also, there's no staminasteal debuff and we don't get a skilll that allows us to trade health for stamina.

Now to top it all off, there's been a bug in the game for about a year that will randomly cause the game to think you are sprinting when you are not, cutting off your stam recovery AND draining it at RANDOM.

That's the situation.

If you truly believe all those sets are over powered, then the game needs almost a complete rework of all sets

Their overpowered compared to stamina sustain options given the constraints I mentioned.

Amdar_Godkiller · September 2018

Minno wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

moosegod wrote: »

In reference to OP,

Recovery stats are not offensive, you almost prove that yourself in your post. Yes it allows you to get damage in other sources but you're still dedicating a source to defense. By running BP you can now use damage glyphs but you're also giving up a potential damage set for being able to sustain and survive.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Because of Bone Pirate I can run all damage Glyphs and the warrior Mundus. I do not build for survivability as Roll Dodge is my main source of mitigation and requires 0 investment via sets; at most well fitted - which is an opportunity cost of at most 100 weapon damage for a potential 28% cost reduction

By using BP you're investing a set into sustain which is, as I said, survivability. A stam build without any way to sustain their resource is a gank build and will not make it far past the first burst. You will not be able to keep up roll dodge Xv1 without sustain, in the same way a mag build couldn't use shields (also you're forgetting mag builds can still roll too and is viable with well fitted before shields can be crit). Also a mag form of well fitted isn't as necessary because shields do not increase in cost the more you use them while roll dodge does.

Light and medium armour are pure damage gear types. They survive by mitigating damage through secondary means. Whether it's using roll dodge or shields builds using these armour sets get their defense through recovery so they can sustain their use of mitigation. Heavy armour can be used by either spec and mitigates damage through just being tough. LA or MA cannot take much damage without their respective defense currently active and since that defense drains stats then recovering that resource is a form of defense as well. Yes, recovery has offensive qualities by allowing damage skills to be used but dismissing the the defensive qualities would be ignorant.

In my opinion recovery stats are offensive as both mag and Stam have a minimum Regen stat necessity to be a viable PvP build.

From my experience the Regen needed is higher for a mag build - but I am not using this as a point lol

How you go about reaching this minimum has many venues. Once you reach it you can stack as much as you want into any other stat.

And I got side tracked and lost my train of thought...

Regen is less valuable to stam builds because almost everything we do CUTS OFF OUR RECOVERY.

Imagine if casting a shield prevented you from recovering magicka... Now to make matters worse, there are probably a dozen mag sets that provide alternative means of or massive buffs towards recovering magicka (prisoners, lich (OP), bloodthorn (OP), magicka furnace (better than the stam equivalent), archmage, desert rose (OP), syrabane (OP with a frost staff), worm (OP), alteration mastery (OP), warlock (decent), engine guardian (OP), etc).

For stam builds you have that dungeon set that is basically a 50% crappier version of magicka furnace, barkskin which only provides the equivalent of 400 stam recovery if you are facing someone that uses immobilizations every 5 seconds and it comes with no damage bonuses, engine guardian or sentinel (the former being powerful but often unreliable and the latter requiring you to be a stationary target to receive any benefit, essence thief (unusable in its current state), Hunt leader (for all the pet stam builds), Kyne's Kiss (impossibly low proc chance), and HIrcine's veneer (more helpful in terms of group utility than individual sustain).

Only barkskin and engine guardian are practical in any sense and choosing them requires you to receive 0 set bonuses towards damage (1 max health, 1 resistance, 1 stam recovery, and 1 health recovery, so yuck).

Also, there's no staminasteal debuff and we don't get a skilll that allows us to trade health for stamina.

Now to top it all off, there's been a bug in the game for about a year that will randomly cause the game to think you are sprinting when you are not, cutting off your stam recovery AND draining it at RANDOM.

That's the situation.

If you truly believe all those sets are over powered, then the game needs almost a complete rework of all sets

Should we tell him he is getting Stam Alt Mastery in a week or 2? lol

I've heard. I'll be using both of them together on a build.