SWIFT DOES NOT NEED A NERF!

Minno · September 2018

Arciris wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

Swift was most likely designed as a soft snare mitigation tool in response of the many PvP complaints about the huge amount of stackable snares that made combat feel really sluggish.

The issue is that Forward Momentum grants a long full snare and root immunity, rather than a mitigation (say 50% reduction on snare effectiveness and duration as well as a root removal and 2 sec immunity to root would be better).

With the current Forward Momentum + Immovable Speed pots people are already super fast and unstoppable .

Swift is only the tip of the Iceberg meaning it's a tiny part but it is also the only thing that myopic minds are able to see.

Meanwhile Swift introduced a lot of fresh air in PvE and ruining PvErs experience just because of a misinterpretation of an issue is simply really sad.

Please also take PvErs concerns about an unwanted Swift nerf to the Dev team @ZOS_GinaBruno . Thank you.

Edit for typos

They hinted at us in the meeting yesterday that they will adjust swift and even possibly major expedition to reduce the speed in pvp...

Problem is that if you fight players that have both 3 swift and major expedition, it's almost impossible to hit them with single target abilities. That's why steel tornado is so dominant as an execute at the moment, because it HITS, instead of reverse slice for example which is often impossible to hit.

Thank you so much for your answer

I'm sad to see that they are looking at the wrong end of the problem, as a single 70% snare negates both 3x Swift + Major Expedition.
But there is nothing that negates Forward Momentum. There is no possible counter to FW. It is FM that allows super un-negated, un-conterable speed.
So I guess LA and Heavy specs will remain slow as snails.

Can you please push for those changes (whatever they are planning) to be introduced via Battle Spirit?
If any nerf is going to happen, it needs to stay out of PvE.

Thanks again

They're also gonna looka t forward momentum.

Thank you again for the news @Masel92

Can you please also make sure that this targeting issue is not due to other reasons? For example players confusing it with Major Evasion (soon RIP), or even high latency?

On October 16th I will be celebrating my 5th anniversary playing ESO and I've never heard of any issue targeting a player due to his speed (not talking about hacks)

If that was true, Cyrodiil would be Werewolf land by now, as they've always had an innate 3x gold Swift permanent bonus (of course WW doesn't have snare removal or immunity, so snares were always a WW's bane)

Or, even worse, everyone would be sprinting around as they couldn't be targeted while sprinting. (Swift + Major Expedition puts you at 60% base speed but an Orc MA sprinting is close to 100% even when not built for it, just needs a speed pot).

Not to mention that for many years, there wasn't even a speed cap, so players could reach 140%, 150% in sprint and still be "targetable".

Anyway, please don't forget to please, please push for a possible change to speed, if any, to be kept out of PvE lands

Thanks again.

Edit: now that I think about it, people have been reporting targeting issues on perfectly static Target Dummies , thinking about Templar Jabs or Empowering Sweep not connecting for example, so can it be that players are perceiving Speed as being an issue while the problem lies entirely elsewhere?
Summoning @Joy_Division here as you may have some insight about it?

That would be my guess as well! Server connection and hitbox weirdness.

BlackMadara wrote: »

I keep seeing people say that snares are stackable? When was this changed? To my knowledge, only the strongest snare is applied at a time. E.g. if you have a 15% snare on you and a 30% snare is applied, you are snared by 30%.

Are you correct, largest snare overrides the lowest.

Tonturri · September 2018

It's not fine. The trait is more easily accessible by stamina builds, whereas magicka setups - due to their heavy reliance on max magicka - cannot afford to give up quite so many Arcane trait slots in exchange for the movement bonus.

I'm sure this isn't the only contributing factor, but it could still use some addressing. There are some pretty significant differences and limitations on itemization between mag and stam gearing, and even between stam and other stam builds, and mag and other mag builds. Of course, everybody running the same thing would be awful, but I don't think aiming for some gearing freedom would result in that.

BigBadVolk · September 2018

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Why not nerf both ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

thats what going to happen knowing ZoS

Ragnarock41 · September 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

Swift was most likely designed as a soft snare mitigation tool in response of the many PvP complaints about the huge amount of stackable snares that made combat feel really sluggish.

The issue is that Forward Momentum grants a long full snare and root immunity, rather than a mitigation (say 50% reduction on snare effectiveness and duration as well as a root removal and 2 sec immunity to root would be better).

With the current Forward Momentum + Immovable Speed pots people are already super fast and unstoppable .

Swift is only the tip of the Iceberg meaning it's a tiny part but it is also the only thing that myopic minds are able to see.

Meanwhile Swift introduced a lot of fresh air in PvE and ruining PvErs experience just because of a misinterpretation of an issue is simply really sad.

Please also take PvErs concerns about an unwanted Swift nerf to the Dev team @ZOS_GinaBruno . Thank you.

Edit for typos

They hinted at us in the meeting yesterday that they will adjust swift and even possibly major expedition to reduce the speed in pvp...

Problem is that if you fight players that have both 3 swift and major expedition, it's almost impossible to hit them with single target abilities. That's why steel tornado is so dominant as an execute at the moment, because it HITS, instead of reverse slice for example which is often impossible to hit.

That would be beneficial for everyone. Forward momentum, swift, major expedition ,they are all way too effective. Sprinting is fine but in combat mobility shouldn't be this easy to stack.

As a side note, nerfing forward momentum and major expedition should be done carefully, and stamina classes that rely heavily on them should be compensated. StamDk for example, completely relies on those two things to stay barely playable.

ChunkyCat · September 2018

Swift needs a 1 second cast time.

BlackMadara · September 2018

I keep seeing people say that snares are stackable? When was this changed? To my knowledge, only the strongest snare is applied at a time. E.g. if you have a 15% snare on you and a 30% snare is applied. You are snared by 30%

Runs · September 2018

The problem isn't Swift, or Major Expedition.

The problem is the speed cap. Lower it.

Lughlongarm · September 2018

Movement speed doesn't need a nerf. Movement speed got very strong counters -snares/immob/cc . Forward momentum needs to be nerfed big time. No other skill is giving such a cheap access to fully mechanic immunity, the value on this skill in insane. They should change Forward momentum to reduce snare effectiveness by 50% for the duration, they should change Shuffle to give immunity to snares only(not root) for the duration. Immovable should give imuunity to CC and root for the duration(they can remove the resistances for the skill).

pieratsos · September 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

Swift was most likely designed as a soft snare mitigation tool in response of the many PvP complaints about the huge amount of stackable snares that made combat feel really sluggish.

The issue is that Forward Momentum grants a long full snare and root immunity, rather than a mitigation (say 50% reduction on snare effectiveness and duration as well as a root removal and 2 sec immunity to root would be better).

With the current Forward Momentum + Immovable Speed pots people are already super fast and unstoppable .

Swift is only the tip of the Iceberg meaning it's a tiny part but it is also the only thing that myopic minds are able to see.

Meanwhile Swift introduced a lot of fresh air in PvE and ruining PvErs experience just because of a misinterpretation of an issue is simply really sad.

Please also take PvErs concerns about an unwanted Swift nerf to the Dev team @ZOS_GinaBruno . Thank you.

Edit for typos

They hinted at us in the meeting yesterday that they will adjust swift and even possibly major expedition to reduce the speed in pvp...

Problem is that if you fight players that have both 3 swift and major expedition, it's almost impossible to hit them with single target abilities. That's why steel tornado is so dominant as an execute at the moment, because it HITS, instead of reverse slice for example which is often impossible to hit.

The issue is the accessibility of major expedition i.e speed pots, not major expedition itself.

mongoLC · September 2018

Movement speed is a problem and needs to be nerfed. Some people move so fast you can't even target them or attack.
Have battle spirit half the infused jewelry trait. 15% probably would be able to land attacks and target still.

Chilly-McFreeze · September 2018

mongoLC wrote: »

Movement speed is a problem and needs to be nerfed. Some people move so fast you can't even target them or attack.
Have battle spirit half the infused jewelry trait. 15% probably would be able to land attacks and target still.

Infused, he?

Crixus8000 · September 2018

If they nerf forward momentum or speed I would love them to fix the cc going through immunity first though. If speed and cc immunity will be harder to get I would at least like it to actually work. Too many times in 1vx do I have forward momentum up, a speed pot and still get slowed to the point of basically just walking. It's pathetic.

Ragnarock41 · September 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

Swift was most likely designed as a soft snare mitigation tool in response of the many PvP complaints about the huge amount of stackable snares that made combat feel really sluggish.

The issue is that Forward Momentum grants a long full snare and root immunity, rather than a mitigation (say 50% reduction on snare effectiveness and duration as well as a root removal and 2 sec immunity to root would be better).

With the current Forward Momentum + Immovable Speed pots people are already super fast and unstoppable .

Swift is only the tip of the Iceberg meaning it's a tiny part but it is also the only thing that myopic minds are able to see.

Meanwhile Swift introduced a lot of fresh air in PvE and ruining PvErs experience just because of a misinterpretation of an issue is simply really sad.

Please also take PvErs concerns about an unwanted Swift nerf to the Dev team @ZOS_GinaBruno . Thank you.

Edit for typos

They hinted at us in the meeting yesterday that they will adjust swift and even possibly major expedition to reduce the speed in pvp...

Problem is that if you fight players that have both 3 swift and major expedition, it's almost impossible to hit them with single target abilities. That's why steel tornado is so dominant as an execute at the moment, because it HITS, instead of reverse slice for example which is often impossible to hit.

The issue is the accessibility of major expedition i.e speed pots, not major expedition itself.

oh yeah, lets remove speed pots so magicka players are faster than stamina in PvP. What could go wrong?

_Salty_ · September 2018

Swift was a bad idea. Anyone who things its ok in its current state is obviously using 3 swift jewelry.

Datthaw · September 2018

Xeniph wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

This is a stupid request

I'm a solo player that doesn't use swift on any of my toons and I have no issues with it. I have yet to have any amount of swift kill me.

If it bothers anyone maybe stop chasing people.

Now Forward Momentum is a whole other ball of wax. I do feel this ability is over the top. It's great when your build can utilize it, but you really feel the loss if you have to use Rally and rely on the wopping 3 second immunity from Shuffle.

Instead of nerfing it though, I'd rather see a buff to the other immunity abilities.

Swift doesn't kill you it makes other people impossible to hit or actually chase.

Maybe stop chasing?

I would love to stop chasing, problem is I'M NOT THE ONE CHASING the Stam toon in swift IS THE ONE CHASING ME and won't stop. Yeah he can't outright kill me unless he catches me with dbos. But I can't catch and kill him and I can't get away because I'm slow. So I just run to a keep getting circled like a damn shark would circle a dead fish.

This is the problem with swift, and this is why everyone who says "just run away" and "don't chase" is either blindly defending swift, just really really doesn't understand, or just spends 0 time in cyro.

Runs · September 2018

Datthaw wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

This is a stupid request

I'm a solo player that doesn't use swift on any of my toons and I have no issues with it. I have yet to have any amount of swift kill me.

If it bothers anyone maybe stop chasing people.

Now Forward Momentum is a whole other ball of wax. I do feel this ability is over the top. It's great when your build can utilize it, but you really feel the loss if you have to use Rally and rely on the wopping 3 second immunity from Shuffle.

Instead of nerfing it though, I'd rather see a buff to the other immunity abilities.

Swift doesn't kill you it makes other people impossible to hit or actually chase.

Maybe stop chasing?

I would love to stop chasing, problem is I'M NOT THE ONE CHASING the Stam toon in swift IS THE ONE CHASING ME and won't stop. Yeah he can't outright kill me unless he catches me with dbos. But I can't catch and kill him and I can't get away because I'm slow. So I just run to a keep getting circled like a damn shark would circle a dead fish.

This is the problem with swift, and this is why everyone who says "just run away" and "don't chase" is either blindly defending swift, just really really doesn't understand, or just spends 0 time in cyro.

But that Stam toon doesn't need Swift to do that. Someone who has spent time in Cyrodiil should know that.

pieratsos · September 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

Swift was most likely designed as a soft snare mitigation tool in response of the many PvP complaints about the huge amount of stackable snares that made combat feel really sluggish.

The issue is that Forward Momentum grants a long full snare and root immunity, rather than a mitigation (say 50% reduction on snare effectiveness and duration as well as a root removal and 2 sec immunity to root would be better).

With the current Forward Momentum + Immovable Speed pots people are already super fast and unstoppable .

Swift is only the tip of the Iceberg meaning it's a tiny part but it is also the only thing that myopic minds are able to see.

Meanwhile Swift introduced a lot of fresh air in PvE and ruining PvErs experience just because of a misinterpretation of an issue is simply really sad.

Please also take PvErs concerns about an unwanted Swift nerf to the Dev team @ZOS_GinaBruno . Thank you.

Edit for typos

They hinted at us in the meeting yesterday that they will adjust swift and even possibly major expedition to reduce the speed in pvp...

Problem is that if you fight players that have both 3 swift and major expedition, it's almost impossible to hit them with single target abilities. That's why steel tornado is so dominant as an execute at the moment, because it HITS, instead of reverse slice for example which is often impossible to hit.

The issue is the accessibility of major expedition i.e speed pots, not major expedition itself.

oh yeah, lets remove speed pots so magicka players are faster than stamina in PvP. What could go wrong?

Huh? Is this a joke? Where exactly did i say remove speed pots so magicka players are faster?

ak_pvp · September 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

Forward momentum was perfectly fine before the swift trait was introduced.
LEAVE FM ALONE.

There were and still are too many farking roots and snares in this game. Can't beat them with skill? Root and snare them to death.

If the intro of the swift trait was too much then change the damn swift trait.

Honestly if the guy wants to play marathon simulator and run away, fine. I'd rather continue on my way to fight his buds at the keep.

Sorry pve farmers, WE (I farm too) did fine farming before swift, we will continue to do fine if it's reduced. There are plenty of other farming sets to use.

Can't beat roots/snares with skill. Press one button to ignore it all. Ah yes this is much better because it screws over them, not me. Because that is how balance works... /s

The fact still is no one complained about forward momentum until swift was a thing.

NO ONE

So now swift a thing and FM is the problem?

No, swift is the problem as stated
"The targeting can't keep up because the speed is too much"

Has nothing to do with FM.

Bull *** mate. FM was complained about for a long time. I even use it on my MDK because its so strong. No swift. Complete cheap immunity to snares and control is OP. Swift just makes it worse.

Was it? I don't remember seeing many "nerf FM" posts. Instead I read a lot of "finally HA builds can't use Rally anymore, 'cuz that combo is OP" comments after the shuffle lock. I also remember every magspec asking for a snare removal tool and endless complains about perma-snaring. We will just come full circle again.

There were some. When FM became meta after the shuffle changes, the meta wasn't super speed based as the power creep was lower.
Even still, some complained about it because its terrible design. Either snared down to 40% of max speed, or the ability to move completely unimpeded. Now, with swift, that gap has gotten larger and it is clear the entire thing needs to be changed.

My reasoning is: It should be possible to build really high speed, which swift allows. its useful for more than just PvP, but at the same time there should be some method to counter it. FM takes that counter away completely, swift doesn't. So I see no reason to nerf swift and reduce build diversity, instead target FM and wings/shuffle (though weaker) so that control has more viability.
The only one I say should keep immunity is mist, because you lose alot in it. FM/shuffle/Wings are all insta cast so should have soft counter effects.

Bubosh · October 2018

wtf is wrong with this ppl here? FM is Fine like IT is now and those ppl who say shuffle needs a longer up time than FM they just got a Broken mind shuffle is doing dmg reduction ATM and also After murkmire Patch and shouldnt Be cheeper ore getting longer up time because of this Fact wtf is wrong with this Medium armor users

Nicko_Lps · October 2018

Heavy armor tears...

How much i love it...

Chilly-McFreeze · October 2018

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Heavy armor tears...

How much i love it...

Heavy Stam will still be faster than mag.

Nicko_Lps · October 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Heavy armor tears...

How much i love it...

Heavy Stam will still be faster than mag.

Ofc brother, its the Elder Stamina Online.

IcyDeadPeople · October 2018

Kadoin wrote: »

"Swift isn't the problem, just nerf everyone not using it and let me keep my advantage over them! My suggestions couldn't possibly make it an even bigger problem"

It's a significant tradeoff to choose swift for mobility instead of other traits that boost your damage like bloodthirsty, infused etc. IMO this seemed like a nice balance, when your choice of jewelry trait is difficult it becomes more interesting.

Kadoin · October 2018

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

"Swift isn't the problem, just nerf everyone not using it and let me keep my advantage over them! My suggestions couldn't possibly make it an even bigger problem"

It's a significant tradeoff to choose swift for mobility instead of other traits that boost your damage like bloodthirsty, infused etc. IMO this seemed like a nice balance, when your choice of jewelry trait is difficult it becomes more interesting.

It's not difficult for me. It's literally the best trait for damage reduction. It's also the best trait for offense. You can say it's not, but everyone using it should know how to really use it by now. Remember what ZOS said about not wanting people stacking into offense gained a large amount of defense? Guess what this trait is doing, even if its unintentional? Not surprised they are targeting it for a nerf.

Sharee · October 2018

Kadoin wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

"Swift isn't the problem, just nerf everyone not using it and let me keep my advantage over them! My suggestions couldn't possibly make it an even bigger problem"

It's a significant tradeoff to choose swift for mobility instead of other traits that boost your damage like bloodthirsty, infused etc. IMO this seemed like a nice balance, when your choice of jewelry trait is difficult it becomes more interesting.

It's not difficult for me. It's literally the best trait for damage reduction. It's also the best trait for offense. You can say it's not, but everyone using it should know how to really use it by now. Remember what ZOS said about not wanting people stacking into offense gained a large amount of defense? Guess what this trait is doing, even if its unintentional? Not surprised they are targeting it for a nerf.

Right, and the reason is the game isn't capable of handling fast-moving players very well. Especially in high-latency environments like cyrodiil, there is always a discrepancy between where your client sees a player, and where the player actually is as seen by the server. This discrepancy grows larger the faster the target moves, until it is literally untargettable, because while you see him in clear LOS of you, he is actually already around a corner, and when you try to use an ability, the server says "nuh-uh".

The whole PvP needs to be slowed down by at least 50%. Easiest way is to have battle spirit halve all speed boosts(not base speed), except maybe riding speed where it does not matter.

Nicalas · October 2018

The problem is players becoming dependent on snares/immobilizations. They are too strong.
Forgive the math it was googled or pulled from my tooltips.

Redguard 3x swift running Bone Pirate and one other set. No CP/BG

Average stamina = 30k
Regen = 1741 every 2 seconds
Break free = 5700 stamina

5 medium.
Roll cost after passives = 3232
Shuffle cost after passives = 3888
Roll Fatigue = 4 seconds
Roll snare immunity = 2 seconds

1v1 open field, no los.

Immovable pot consumed. 10.4 second Immunity
Snare
Roll -3232
Vigor - 3160
2s Immunity
Snare
Roll -4848
2s immunity
Snare
Shuffle -3888
Vigor-3160
2.5s immunity
Snare
Roll - 3232
2s immunity
Immovable ends
Hard CC
Break Free-5700

In 10 seconds That is 27220 stamina

w/no blocking or sprinting thats 8605 stamina returned.

In 10 seconds of snare/cc spamming you have used 18615 of my stamina at 28m or more. I haven't even cast an offensive skill yet.

You can consume 2/3 of my entire resource pool in 10 seconds.

I have no snares or immobilizations. I have an ultimate hard CC that can be interruped by snares, cc, blocked, or just plain vanish.
My other CC is a 1.2 second cast time in melee range that can can be out ran, dodged, blocked, or canceled by moving into my body.

So what should be nerfed?

Amdar_Godkiller · October 2018

jcm2606 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Zaryc wrote: »

Wise_Will wrote: »

Zaryc wrote: »

Wise_Will wrote: »

Why not just nerf everything that other people use in PVP just because you cant kill them. You are ruining more than just your PVP you are ruining PVE too, and ZOS stupidly listens to this small minority of PVP plebians and screws over everyone. GJ

Well we are taking about swift. If you use swift in PvE you are doing something wrong. And according to ZOS most of the nerfs are due to PvP AND PvE.

Using it for casual PvE, solo questing etc, and ofc its mainly PVP, this forum is full of them crying about something or other, because they think they are killing gods, when in actual fact, they are not skilled enough, hence why they keep dying. Instead of getting better and moving on, they just call for nerfs which effects everyone.

Well I can partly agree on that. There are tons of whiny PvPers who are just bad and instead of getting better they come to cry on the forums and ask for nerfs (usually nerf sorc threads since sorc is the ultimate noob killing class).

The problem is that combat is not balanced. There are many issues out there and ZOS is not able to balance things out properly. And these imbalance issues are not limited to PvP, there are imbalances in PvE too. For example mNB DD having way superior dps, healing, mobility and sustain than other classes.

Balance changes won't really affect casual PvE like questing since PvE overland mobs are so weak that you can kill them naked by spamming light attacks. That's why combat balance should be made around PvP and endgame PvE (trials, dlc vet dungeons).

The problem with swift is, it gives mobility to those classes who shouldn't have high mobility like heavy armour users. Another problem is, that swift is more usefull on stamina classes, because they have easy access to snare removal and are not relying on max stats for damage like magicka classes since it is so much easier to get your weapon damage high than your spell damage (medium armour and fighter guild passives, sets like 7th, Fury, Ravager...) and are therefore sacrificing less damage.

I won't call for a nerf on swift, because I don't have many problems with it as ranged DD, but swift isn't really balanced especially when you are playing melee classes and can't hit something because you get out run to easy.

So a good start would be to give mag easier access to snare immunity, shorten FM's duration a bit (while buffing shuffle - might simply swap the durations?) and create better heavy armor magicka sets. I can totally get behind that, as long it's not coupled we a giant nerf hammer to things that work well at the same time.

That's what I'd like to see happen to Shuffle and Forward Momentum. Shuffle gets its duration buffed to about the same amount as Forward Momentum currently gives (someone else in another thread suggested a flat 5 second duration with an extra 0.5 seconds per piece of medium, so 5 will give 7.5 seconds of immunity, and 7 will give 8.5 seconds), and Forward Momentum gets its duration reduced to about the same as Shuffle currently gives (I'd say about 2-4 seconds would be good).

Shuffle needs more than just that. It's locked behind medium armor, so it needs to provide something unique towards improving medium armor defenses. I'd suggest having it give major and minor expedition as well immobilization and snare immunity and dodge roll cost reduction for 4 seconds plus .5 seconds per piece of medium armor. the other morph could just give evasion, immunity, and act as a stam purge.

IcyDeadPeople · October 2018

Kadoin wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

"Swift isn't the problem, just nerf everyone not using it and let me keep my advantage over them! My suggestions couldn't possibly make it an even bigger problem"

It's a significant tradeoff to choose swift for mobility instead of other traits that boost your damage like bloodthirsty, infused etc. IMO this seemed like a nice balance, when your choice of jewelry trait is difficult it becomes more interesting.

It's not difficult for me. It's literally the best trait for damage reduction. It's also the best trait for offense. You can say it's not, but everyone using it should know how to really use it by now. Remember what ZOS said about not wanting people stacking into offense gained a large amount of defense? Guess what this trait is doing, even if its unintentional? Not surprised they are targeting it for a nerf.

It's not increasing your damage. Going with swift is a specific choice to spec into more defensive trait. Bloodthirsty and infused are powerful offensive traits. If anything maybe protective and harmony might benefit from slight buff, but the others are quite good.