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Minor Toughness Behind Paywall?
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kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't think that was the original intent, but it is the result.
I agree with Nifty. Give it back to warhorn and give Warden something else.Playing since beta...0 -
Maryal✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giving minor toughness exclusively to wardens was not right because the warden class is not part of the base game. I wouldn't say it's 'pay to win' ... but it separates the player base into the 'haves' and 'have nots' based on who can/cannot afford to purchase the warden class (if they want to play a character that gives this buff to their group (or to themselves)).Edited by Maryal on September 25, 2018 2:35PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »It's not "necessary", but even if it isn't necessary it is still a bad precedent putting a buff exclusively behind a pay wall for how to get it.
Isn't the only item set that grants Minor Toughness also in Vvardenfell so behind a pay wall also?
By the same logic nothing is really necessary.
Toughness does much to increase the survivability of a group. With 3 to 4 support members of the group running WH that buff can remain constant.
Considering raid groups commonly have one of the tanks wearing ebon to increase the max health of the group for the same reason it does seem to server a very important purpose and Zos is very well aware of that.The game itself is pay to win... Without the game, you cannot win.
-keevil111
It is good to see someone inject humor into these convos.
Edited by idk on September 25, 2018 2:36PM0 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »The paywall thing isn't an issue as every single endgame player has the warden. The problem is that rather than buffing them to increase their usage, they gave them a unique buff to artificially force people to use them. Wardens are still hot trash, except now they have a unique buff.
I disagree, stam warden is awesome.0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oh come on now. Under the same logic we can say that Relequen and Siroria are pay to win. Mechanical acuity? p2w. Master Architect? p2w. Maelstrom weapons? How dare they?! Even Julianos is pay to win under this logic.
With the exception of vma weapons, no sets you listed have a unique buff. Slayer and stat boosts are available in base game sets.
Major slayer is only available from War Machine and Master Architect. Alkosh provides a unique source of penetration. Jorvulds guidance? An entirely unique effect. Blood Moon? One of the most unique buffs that increases light attacks speed. Should I keep going?1 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You're all acting like having a warden in your team is costing you money... There are TONS of existing wardens out there, go bring one in the group, let them play, problem solved.Hoping for more playable races2 -
Akimbro✭✭✭✭You're all acting like having a warden in your team is costing you money... There are TONS of existing wardens out there, go bring one in the group, let them play, problem solved.
You're completely missing the point dudeALACRITY Emperors united RIP
LAST PRODIGIES World first SO clear RIP
The last egg in the carton.1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭But guys, did't you see it in the patch comments?
"We are nerfing Templars, Sorcs, NBs and DKs to make Warden a more appealing class. We have no time to fix that class, so this change will make it necessary in end content. This is a buff if you pay money to us, but a nerf if you bought the game long ago"Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oh come on now. Under the same logic we can say that Relequen and Siroria are pay to win. Mechanical acuity? p2w. Master Architect? p2w. Maelstrom weapons? How dare they?! Even Julianos is pay to win under this logic.
With the exception of vma weapons, no sets you listed have a unique buff. Slayer and stat boosts are available in base game sets.
Major slayer is only available from War Machine and Master Architect. Alkosh provides a unique source of penetration. Jorvulds guidance? An entirely unique effect. Blood Moon? One of the most unique buffs that increases light attacks speed. Should I keep going?
So you think it is OK?
Let's say there's a guy out there who wants to start playing ESO as a tank. Let's say he is done with WoW and comes here to tank. Now, how would you explain that guy that if he wants to play the game at full he needs to buy not only he base game, but also each patch?
You know, ZoS is worried about the decreasing community and wants to bring new blood into the game. It is a fair concern.. But how could be possible that a studio worried about that problem forces new players to buy not only the base game but every single patch to give them the "full experience" they are looking for?
And how do they justiy that paywall when you see the conditions of the servers? Because people PAY and do not RECEIVE what they are paying for (just some gambreaking sets each in a blue moon)
It is a major issue. And it should be addressed.Edited by Xvorg on September 25, 2018 5:24PMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
RedRook✭✭✭✭So everyone is all occupied over the shield changes, but ZOS sneaked in this little change that seems like no one noticedWar Horn: This ability and its morphs no longer grant Minor Toughness.
Developer Comment:This change was made to give Wardens the ability to provide a unique buff (Minor Toughness) to groups.Maturation: The Minor Toughness granted by this passive now applies even if the target was completely over-healed, and its duration has been increased to 10/20 seconds from 5/10 seconds.
So, why, Toughness is necessary in a lot of situations for PvE and now it's requiring a Warden to be in group to get it? Putting a buff category behind a paywall doesn't seem like the best route to go, all buff categories should be widely accessible. Maybe find something else for wardens to have that isn't so important that people need to buy one.
Just a suggestion to probably not go this route with this sort of change and to find something else to give wardens that'll help utility more. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Finn
Something else like what? Are wardens not allowed to have a unique buff, ever, because "paywall"?
Gah, this is exactly how it was with Imperials. Heaven forfend it not be a middling, dull race to play, because if it was very good people would flip out that it's not included in the base game.
Warden is allowed to have stuff of its own, just like every other class. The human beings who want to play that class deserve to not be consigned forever to second-class just because not everybody wants to pay the fee to play it themselves.1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Not knowing what pay to win is is pay to win.
Btw, what sources give the four minor buffs main game classes provide? The warden can either never have anything unique at all, or it can and is then dubbed pay to win? What then is acceptable of a buff for them to ever have?1 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oh come on now. Under the same logic we can say that Relequen and Siroria are pay to win. Mechanical acuity? p2w. Master Architect? p2w. Maelstrom weapons? How dare they?! Even Julianos is pay to win under this logic.
With the exception of vma weapons, no sets you listed have a unique buff. Slayer and stat boosts are available in base game sets.
Major slayer is only available from War Machine and Master Architect. Alkosh provides a unique source of penetration. Jorvulds guidance? An entirely unique effect. Blood Moon? One of the most unique buffs that increases light attacks speed. Should I keep going?
So you think it is OK?
Let's say there's a guy out there who wants to start playing ESO as a tank. Let's say he is done with WoW and comes here to tank. Now, how would you explain that guy that if he wants to play the game at full he needs to buy not only he base game, but also each patch?
You know, ZoS is worried about the decreasing community and wants to bring new blood into the game. It is a fair concern.. But how could be possible that a studio worried about that problem forces new players to buy not only the base game but every single patch to give them the "full experience" they are looking for?
And how do they justiy that paywall when you see the conditions of the servers? Because people PAY and do not RECEIVE what they are paying for (just some gambreaking sets each in a blue moon)
It is a major issue. And it should be addressed.
So we are not allowed to have any new sets, skills and even passives after base game? Cause it's p2w? Every single MMO has expansions and new content drops that add new items and often even higher level cap. Saying that every DLC is p2w is just dumb. Every multiplayer game adds new weapons and skills over time. Often behind a payed DLC. This is not p2w.
And yes, new palyer has to buy them. Often older DLCs get packaged and sold at a discounted price. Or even added to a first time package with the newes expansion. That's how you solve that problem. Not by screaming p2w and not giving players anything new in DLCs.5 -
weedgenius✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't think that was the original intent, but it is the result.
That's my thought, as well. I don't think they're trying to force groups to take wardens in order to increase crown sales (and I'm typically very suspicious of ZOS's intentions). I think they already sold many people an underperforming product and are now attempting to address customer complaints.
The problem is that giving them a unique buff does exactly what others have mentioned: 1) artificially forces group diversity and 2) locks a buff behind a paywall.
Also, though, it's worth noting here that many people have discussed at length the notion that wardens will always be forced to be a subpar class because if people see them as OP, there will be major complaints at P2W. And it begins...PS4 NA
Better Homes & Gardens0 -
AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
✭You're all acting like having a warden in your team is costing you money... There are TONS of existing wardens out there, go bring one in the group, let them play, problem solved.
I think the point is more that they suck and a group shouldn't have to carry one; a warden should be able to bring more to a group than one buff while riding on the back seat of the bus.“Whatever.”
-Unknown American0 -
_Ahala_✭✭✭✭✭
✭They should just make Warden a base game class at this point so they can balance it properly without people calling them out for having a worthless crown class (Magden) that is also pay to win (Stamden)3 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »You're all acting like having a warden in your team is costing you money... There are TONS of existing wardens out there, go bring one in the group, let them play, problem solved.
I think the point is more that they suck and a group shouldn't have to carry one; a warden should be able to bring more to a group than one buff while riding on the back seat of the bus.
So which is it, are they p2w or awful?
0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oh come on now. Under the same logic we can say that Relequen and Siroria are pay to win. Mechanical acuity? p2w. Master Architect? p2w. Maelstrom weapons? How dare they?! Even Julianos is pay to win under this logic.
With the exception of vma weapons, no sets you listed have a unique buff. Slayer and stat boosts are available in base game sets.
Major slayer is only available from War Machine and Master Architect. Alkosh provides a unique source of penetration. Jorvulds guidance? An entirely unique effect. Blood Moon? One of the most unique buffs that increases light attacks speed. Should I keep going?
So you think it is OK?
Let's say there's a guy out there who wants to start playing ESO as a tank. Let's say he is done with WoW and comes here to tank. Now, how would you explain that guy that if he wants to play the game at full he needs to buy not only he base game, but also each patch?
You know, ZoS is worried about the decreasing community and wants to bring new blood into the game. It is a fair concern.. But how could be possible that a studio worried about that problem forces new players to buy not only the base game but every single patch to give them the "full experience" they are looking for?
And how do they justiy that paywall when you see the conditions of the servers? Because people PAY and do not RECEIVE what they are paying for (just some gambreaking sets each in a blue moon)
It is a major issue. And it should be addressed.
So we are not allowed to have any new sets, skills and even passives after base game? Cause it's p2w? Every single MMO has expansions and new content drops that add new items and often even higher level cap. Saying that every DLC is p2w is just dumb. Every multiplayer game adds new weapons and skills over time. Often behind a payed DLC. This is not p2w.
And yes, new palyer has to buy them. Often older DLCs get packaged and sold at a discounted price. Or even added to a first time package with the newes expansion. That's how you solve that problem. Not by screaming p2w and not giving players anything new in DLCs.
You are getting everything upside down. Yes, new sets are ok, game breaking sets are not. Yes, buying chapters is ok, buying chapters to get things that you should get in the base game it is not.
Wardens are not going to be better with that buff, instead they are still have the exact same problems im PvE they have had since they were launched, so it is not a buff to warden, it is a dirty move. If they wanted to improve warden they should have addressed warden problems instead of trying to fix what wasn't broken, o break what was working ok to band aid what was not ok.
Now, explain a new customer that have paid for all the game experience that s/he cannot go PvP with his PvE build and that there are latency problems when he build towards PvP that will never allow him to enjoy the game experience as he deserved, because, let's be real, ZoS has milked us like a cow, not giving enough in turn.
To finish this, each patch has brought new sets, tell me, how many of those sets have become useful? And how many of those sets have not been nerfed yet? Because the majority of the sets we have got in these 3 years are crap or nerfed.
Is that what we are paying for?Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Cously✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anyone screaming P2W don't really know asian games lofl VMA bow been carrying stam dps for years now and guess what it is locked behind a paywall. We can say Imperial today isn't that powerful but at launch it was locked behind a paywall, an entire race. Whatever your fears are that they will "start bit by bit on pay to win" really makes no sense, that ship already sailed a long, long time ago.3 -
AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
✭DocFrost72 wrote: »AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »You're all acting like having a warden in your team is costing you money... There are TONS of existing wardens out there, go bring one in the group, let them play, problem solved.
I think the point is more that they suck and a group shouldn't have to carry one; a warden should be able to bring more to a group than one buff while riding on the back seat of the bus.
So which is it, are they p2w or awful?
How would I know? It's not my thread, I'm just using my mad reading comprehension skills to understand the OP's intent.“Whatever.”
-Unknown American0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Anyone screaming P2W don't really know asian games lofl VMA bow been carrying stam dps for years now and guess what it is locked behind a paywall. We can say Imperial today isn't that powerful but at launch it was locked behind a paywall, an entire race. Whatever your fears are that they will "start bit by bit on pay to win" really makes no sense, that ship already sailed a long, long time ago.
You know, I came to play here because there was a promise they made: "Play as you want"
Yes, Imperial was behind a paywall, but that was the game at launch, it is obvious a new game tries to sell that kind of stuff to recover some money. Putting a paywall 4 years after launch is too much.
Regarding weapons like VMA, even though they help a lot, they are not mandatory in any group. No group ask you if you are using VMA bow, that's a decision each player has to do.
Comparing that with the buff that was available to everyone and that is now exclusive to one (paid) class makes no sense. Why not giving that buff to DKs for example?
And I insist, minor toughness is not going to solve Warden problems. The class will have the exact the same problems it has now. It is just a band aid they have throw to warden at the price of making Horn a less relevant skill.Edited by Xvorg on September 25, 2018 7:06PMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique2 -
Cously✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anyone screaming P2W don't really know asian games lofl VMA bow been carrying stam dps for years now and guess what it is locked behind a paywall. We can say Imperial today isn't that powerful but at launch it was locked behind a paywall, an entire race. Whatever your fears are that they will "start bit by bit on pay to win" really makes no sense, that ship already sailed a long, long time ago.
You know, I came to play here because there was a promise they made: "Play as you want"
Yes, Imperial was behind a paywall, but that was the game at launch, it is obvious a new game tries to sell that kind of stuff to recover some money. Putting a paywall 4 years after launch is too much.
Regarding weapons like VMA, even though they help a lot, they are not mandatory in any group. No group ask you if you are using VMA bow, that's a decision each player has to do.
Comparing that with the buff that was available to everyone and that is now exclusive to one (paid) class makes no sense. Why not giving that buff to DKs for example?
And I insist, minor toughness is not going to solve Warden problems. The class will have the exact the same problems it has now. It is just a band aid they have throw to warden at the price of making Horn a less relevant skill.
No, there is no exception or excuse. The game from pre-order had features gated behind a paywall. Any Race/Alliance. Imperial. Then the move to B2P and Crown Store. Then VMA weapons that were required for competitive DPS. Then Warden. Then...etc. ZOS has been consistent from Day 1 that things were/are/will be locked behind a paywall. If you played the game since then and today you have supported that. Wether it is right or wrong, they have never lied about their greed. This and much more are to be expected. To have access to all content, all you have to do is pay a mere $15 a month and a bit on expansion or wait it be part of ESO+. You get everything else putting time/effort. In asian games like Perfect World, you don't get to compete unless spend at least $500 on gear exclusive to the item mall. And that's the MINIMUM to have ONE competitive character. Whatever buff or nerf Warden is put through will be called P2W. This ridiculous PW2 concept and whinning is what keep the Warden under heels. Since players can't understand the business model, they better move Warden to base game so the class can be finally be adjusted without whining.3 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »The paywall thing isn't an issue as every single endgame player has the warden. The problem is that rather than buffing them to increase their usage, they gave them a unique buff to artificially force people to use them. Wardens are still hot trash, except now they have a unique buff.
Have you actually tested a Warden on the current PTS?
I'm seeing a lot of really good parses with both stamwarden and magwarden right now.
Liko has a youtube video of a 57k stamwarden parse. I've hit almost 52k on a 3mil on a magwarden solo parse and 49k on a 6mil parse (admittedly with some cheese).
Maybe not quite as good as NBs but right now it looks like stamwarden might be the second best overall DPS in the game and magwardens are at least better than magsorcs and in practice better than useless melee magDKs.
Edited by LiquidPony on September 25, 2018 8:22PM0 -
Lol what damage buffs? Bear lost 30% and your main magicka dot got a massive cost increase.
The increase from 2% to 3% additional damage per animal companions ability slotted...Redguard Dragonknight - Ebonheart Pact - Denzel Roundbelly (PVP Main)
High Elf Sorcerer - Ebonheart Pact - Skinny Roundbelly (PVE Main - Stormproof)0 -
Darkenarlol✭✭✭✭✭
✭yep your HP buff sits behing that huge unbearable paywall of 3k gold to respec and put some stats into hp
which gonna lead you to insane loss of ~500dps without warden in your party. yeah it is the end of the world
and absolutely untolerable.
0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Darkenarlol wrote: »yep your HP buff sits behing that huge unbearable paywall of 3k gold to respec and put some stats into hp
which gonna lead you to insane loss of ~500dps without warden in your party. yeah it is the end of the world
and absolutely untolerable.
Great point made here that demonstrates those that are experienced and knowledgeable understand that Minor Toughness adds to our total stats and that it is an obvious move on the part of Zos to place this behind a paywall.
The rest of what he had to say did not make sense.0 -
GimpyPorcupine✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »Agree, Wardens should not have exclusive access to Minor Toughness. The change doesn't even make sense, since Warden healers were already a good option with unique buffs. The main complaint I saw was that Warden DPS did not bring anything to the group optimization (like Sorc's Minor Prophecy and Templar's Minor Sorcery), and this change does nothing to solve that.
A Warden DPS running a Lotus morph for major spell or weapon crit will still be giving out Minor Toughness, one light or heavy attack at a time. Sure, that's not as reliable as the other classes' minor buffs which hit the whole group, but with a 20 second duration, it's theoretically possible for the entire raid to get and sustain it.
I think the more interesting question is how this alters the "tank must warhorn" meta. Having tanked with a Sorc (not trials, though), it could make the Major Berserk from Atronach more attractive than the Major Force from Aggressive Horn, especially when you factor in the cheaper cost of the Atronach.8-hr/day casual on Xbox NA. 20 Characters, all DC, all Level 50. +2900CP1 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »It's not a god-tier weapon or a super-potion, it's a class. One that everyone already has (like actually, who doesn't?). I consider a craft bag far more required than a Warden.
And you can get a Craft Bag with a sub, no other purchase required.
I think what it is, is putting a toe in the water to see what gamers will put up with and then start heating the pot so all us little frogs will only protest lightly, and then too little too late.
I could be wrong.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
shinikaze✭✭✭What we should actually ask is for a system to trade gold for crown, I mean people are actually doing it already, just make it "safer" for the common folk.
0