What even is the problem with shields in their current live state?

Urvoth · September 2018

I can kill shield users fine in PvP, and my own shields get taken off quite easily, so I'm really not sure how they're OP in PvP, at least in non-CP. BGs are basically StamGrounds at the moment, and with spammable gap closers, swift, speed pots, etc, the range vs melee thing isn't really relevant. Without range or the ability to stun break and roll dodge continuously, shields are important for light armor mag builds to survive.

In PvE, shields only help you live through stuff that would kill you regardless, so nerfing them isn't going to help healers be more effective, unless constantly ressing makes healers "feel more useful." If ZOS wants to buff healers, they should give them better group utility and not make so many 1-shot mechanics.

With this in mind, what exactly is the "problem" with shields? PvP already leans towards stam players, and shields are necessary in PvE thanks to the prevalence of 1-shot mechanics.

therift · September 2018

Because in PvP triple-shield-stacking sorcs are impossible to defeat. Everyone in PvP runs a sorc because of this, except for the handful of stam builds who are allergic to shields.

Because in PvE healers are waiting tables or begging in the streets. Everyone runs only sorcs in dungeons and trials, because insta-shields is godmode, meaning sorcs take absolutely no damage whatsoever while tanking bosses and healing the group.

Thus Nerf Sorc.

usmguy1234 · September 2018

therift wrote: »

Because in PvP triple-shield-stacking sorcs are impossible to defeat. Everyone in PvP runs a sorc because of this, except for the handful of stam builds who are allergic to shields.

Because in PvE healers are waiting tables or begging in the streets. Everyone runs only sorcs in dungeons and trials, because insta-shields is godmode, meaning sorcs take absolutely no damage whatsoever while tanking bosses and healing the group.

Thus Nerf Sorc.

How does one spew so much hyperbole in one post?

VaranisArano · September 2018

Because ZOS wants to nerf DPS and chose to get that result by nerfing survivability. Damage shields for Mag, and passive dodge for stam. (In Morrowind, they nerfed DPS by nerfing sustain.)

Most players don't like it, but ZOS may or may not listen to us.

Gilvoth · September 2018

more and more im leaning towards the possibility that Artificial Intelligence is calling the shots and decision making for nerfs and such in ESO.

LeHarrt91 · September 2018

therift wrote: »

Because in PvP triple-shield-stacking sorcs are impossible to defeat. Everyone in PvP runs a sorc because of this, except for the handful of stam builds who are allergic to shields.

Because in PvE healers are waiting tables or begging in the streets. Everyone runs only sorcs in dungeons and trials, because insta-shields is godmode, meaning sorcs take absolutely no damage whatsoever while tanking bosses and healing the group.

Thus Nerf Sorc.

But all Mag got nerfed with Annulment change. Maybe they should revert annulment (hell even lessen the strength) and only affect conjured ward.

therift · September 2018

I think the facetiousness of my post was overlooked.

kringled_1 · September 2018

therift wrote: »

I think the facetiousness of my post was overlooked.

Hidden behind all the shields I think.

Kadoin · September 2018

I think it has to do with ZOS' vision of active combat. Meaning you have to care about your position, your defense, and actively roll. This was inevitable the moment they went after "perma-blocking." They took away passive dodging and the magic window that allowed you to not worry about dodge time so that you have to actually and actively respond to game mechanics.

Shields happen to also allow you to not worry about position, and honestly something did need to happen. Cast time is not what I would have done, but I'm certain the alternatives would have been less appealing. The alternatives being that shield effectiveness goes down, meaning many previously excluded damage (like from the environment) would probably have been allowed to bypass shields or boss mechanics would have just been swapped to oblivion everywhere (and not just certain places). It's not hard to see that this would be unpopular and punish those who don't use a spamable damage shield, so they decided to nerf the skills themselves.

Bone shield? Used by group. Must stack HP or synergy must be used
Sun shiled? Tanks, data probably showed its rarely slotted anyway. Must stack HP
Obsidian shield? Tanks, used for group + maybe healer (not their targets for nerfs). Must stack HP
Absorb magic? Yeah...guess you can argue its for tanks (and ignore every stam build with a brain runs it)
Crystallized shield? Not a full damage shield like Annulment.
Healing Ward? Healers...Lost initial heal
Armor proc sets that shield? Have conditions that may be met, are not always on 100%
Ultimate that shield? They are ultimates and can't be constantly on.
"But Leap!!" - requires a target

See how every other shield has either group utility or a drawback compared to annulement or ward? I don't find it surprising that both were nerfed. What I do find surprising is that little to nothing was gained with the nerf, and that there is little reason to wear light armor instead of medium or light besides the penetration and cost reduction, and crit. It literally makes no sense how anyone could think that is balanced. Take away and give nothing, or something worthless like a snare reduction...really?

usmguy1234 · September 2018

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

more and more im leaning towards the possibility that Artificial Intelligence is calling the shots and decision making for nerfs and such in ESO.

They do it the brute force way with a dart board.

Exodium · September 2018

therift wrote: »

Because in PvP triple-shield-stacking sorcs are impossible to defeat. Everyone in PvP runs a sorc because of this, except for the handful of stam builds who are allergic to shields.

Because in PvE healers are waiting tables or begging in the streets. Everyone runs only sorcs in dungeons and trials, because insta-shields is godmode, meaning sorcs take absolutely no damage whatsoever while tanking bosses and healing the group.

Thus Nerf Sorc.

Not impossible to kill, but certainly much harder than killing other magicka classes and ESPECIALLY stamina classes.

Being able to stack 3 shields whilst being able to go offensive is and always has been a joke, pampered by the fact that its 'beginner friendly' and therefore compensates for poor defensive choices and gameplay.

I keep hearing a lot but people keep saying "well stamina has dodge lets put a cooldown on that"

Oh really? Well yesterday while DODGE ROLLING, I got killed by a soul assault, a velocious curse, an endless fury + implosion AND had someone radiant beaming me....All while I was DODGE ROLLING...Please tell me how me having to dodge roll, not going offensive whilst doing it, AND being hit by undodgeable attacks is overpowered? I have no trouble surviving this stuff on my magicka sorcerer...

Anyways I disagree with cast time because now I don't want to play my magicka characters but I do think they need to keep the crit and make them so that you can't stack shields. That's all I want.

And nerf snipes while they're at it - that's more of a problem than shields speaking from a solo perspective lol.

LeHarrt91 · September 2018

Exodium wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Because in PvP triple-shield-stacking sorcs are impossible to defeat. Everyone in PvP runs a sorc because of this, except for the handful of stam builds who are allergic to shields.

Because in PvE healers are waiting tables or begging in the streets. Everyone runs only sorcs in dungeons and trials, because insta-shields is godmode, meaning sorcs take absolutely no damage whatsoever while tanking bosses and healing the group.

Thus Nerf Sorc.

Not impossible to kill, but certainly much harder than killing other magicka classes and ESPECIALLY stamina classes.

Being able to stack 3 shields whilst being able to go offensive is and always has been a joke, pampered by the fact that its 'beginner friendly' and therefore compensates for poor defensive choices and gameplay.

I keep hearing a lot but people keep saying "well stamina has dodge lets put a cooldown on that"

Oh really? Well yesterday while DODGE ROLLING, I got killed by a soul assault, a velocious curse, an endless fury + implosion AND had someone radiant beaming me....All while I was DODGE ROLLING...Please tell me how me having to dodge roll, not going offensive whilst doing it, AND being hit by undodgeable attacks is overpowered? I have no trouble surviving this stuff on my magicka sorcerer...

Anyways I disagree with cast time because now I don't want to play my magicka characters but I do think they need to keep the crit and make them so that you can't stack shields. That's all I want.

And nerf snipes while they're at it - that's more of a problem than shields speaking from a solo perspective lol.

And Dodge Rolling increases in cost per consecutive roll and as you said, so many stills are undodgable. But i do not like the cast time either.

Crixus8000 · September 2018

I don't get it either. From a no cp perspective I don't see the issue with shields. I have met some tanky magsorcs sure, but the fight was no different than meeting a heavy armor stam player with strong hots. And I have never personally had an issue with sorcs, and my damage isn't amazing.

Maybe people just hate smashing their keyboard and and seeing the enemy not take any health damage, without understanding the fight.

Jameliel · September 2018

therift wrote: »

Because in PvP triple-shield-stacking sorcs are impossible to defeat. Everyone in PvP runs a sorc because of this, except for the handful of stam builds who are allergic to shields.

Because in PvE healers are waiting tables or begging in the streets. Everyone runs only sorcs in dungeons and trials, because insta-shields is godmode, meaning sorcs take absolutely no damage whatsoever while tanking bosses and healing the group.

Thus Nerf Sorc.

This is a lame excuse by someone who has a hard time beating sorcs. Show me a "shield stacking" sorc with enough sustain and power that's "impossible to kill". The best sorcs are those who know how to move while throwing combos and keeping their ward up most of the time. If you're constantly stacking shields, you simply delay the inevitable. Way too many scrub players in this game who constantly complain about other classes when they cant insta kill them. I main an NB these days and I die a ton. I don't run a generic setup and when I cant kill someone big deal...Play to your strengths and kill who you can. Accept there are always counter builds and counter styles.

I snipe, poison inject, dizzy swing, execute/ult many sorcs to death. I also get comboed down by plenty of them. Sometimes your timing will be better, sometimes theirs will. There is no "impossible to kill" player unless they are cheating or purely specced to be a tank.

SugaComa · September 2018

Cos sorcs cast harden ward, ward ally or what ever on the restro staff and harness magic ...

This gives them three shields and three utility aids to health regen damage mitigation and resource regen

Instead of simply making it so casting one shield over another cancels out the last one, or making it so all shields go on a cool down once one is cast preventing stacking they went a bit mental and added a cast time ... This allows sorcs to still have the buffs ... But now I stead of it being an "oh *** panic" and letting them still have an edge they're now forced to buff up prior to an engagement and if they don't get the kill they need to back up for a sheild buff ... This gives the opponent a window to get in at them ...

I understand ZoS thinking ... But they're blinded to the sorc problem and not the knock it will have to other sheild users who don't stack for pve

Urvoth · September 2018

SugaComa wrote: »

Cos sorcs cast harden ward, ward ally or what ever on the restro staff and harness magic ...

This gives them three shields and three utility aids to health regen damage mitigation and resource regen

Instead of simply making it so casting one shield over another cancels out the last one, or making it so all shields go on a cool down once one is cast preventing stacking they went a bit mental and added a cast time ... This allows sorcs to still have the buffs ... But now I stead of it being an "oh *** panic" and letting them still have an edge they're now forced to buff up prior to an engagement and if they don't get the kill they need to back up for a sheild buff ... This gives the opponent a window to get in at them ...

I understand ZoS thinking ... But they're blinded to the sorc problem and not the knock it will have to other sheild users who don't stack for pve

You know the cost for stacking 3 shields is like 10k magicka, right? And they only last 6 seconds, require 3 sec of gcd to cast in which you won't be able to attack, and also get burned through very quickly in no-cp. You can't continuously spam 3 shields while attacking, or even when just trying to defend. With battle spirit your magicka is like 36k, so you'll run out pretty quickly if you just spam.

therift · September 2018

Jameliel wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Because in PvP triple-shield-stacking sorcs are impossible to defeat. Everyone in PvP runs a sorc because of this, except for the handful of stam builds who are allergic to shields.

Because in PvE healers are waiting tables or begging in the streets. Everyone runs only sorcs in dungeons and trials, because insta-shields is godmode, meaning sorcs take absolutely no damage whatsoever while tanking bosses and healing the group.

Thus Nerf Sorc.

This is a lame excuse by someone who has a hard time beating sorcs. Show me a "shield stacking" sorc with enough sustain and power that's "impossible to kill". The best sorcs are those who know how to move while throwing combos and keeping their ward up most of the time. If you're constantly stacking shields, you simply delay the inevitable. Way too many scrub players in this game who constantly complain about other classes when they cant insta kill them. I main an NB these days and I die a ton. I don't run a generic setup and when I cant kill someone big deal...Play to your strengths and kill who you can. Accept there are always counter builds and counter styles.

I snipe, poison inject, dizzy swing, execute/ult many sorcs to death. I also get comboed down by plenty of them. Sometimes your timing will be better, sometimes theirs will. There is no "impossible to kill" player unless they are cheating or purely specced to be a tank.

See that spec waaaaay up in the sky, whipping by? That's the joke.

BigBragg · September 2018

ZOS combats powercreap, not by addressing it directly, but by nerfing everyone in ways that they believe are unilateral. I wonder how this ties into their past vision of raising the floor and lowering the ceiling? Perhaps that has been long forgotten. Changes like these will more dramatically hurt new and average players than they will the top tier.

X3ina · September 2018

therift wrote: »

Because in PvP triple-shield-stacking sorcs are impossible to defeat. Everyone in PvP runs a sorc because of this, except for the handful of stam builds who are allergic to shields.

Because in PvE healers are waiting tables or begging in the streets. Everyone runs only sorcs in dungeons and trials, because insta-shields is godmode, meaning sorcs take absolutely no damage whatsoever while tanking bosses and healing the group.

Thus Nerf Sorc.

Link us a proof where a *** sorc with triple shield just slaughters everything in its path. Especially thouse stambuilds that barely survive its wrath. <pvp

And your knowledge about endgame pve is debatable aswell because the number of the sorcs in a well built raidgroup varies from 0 to 1, while you can take up to 9 magblades without crippling your overall score

AbysmalGhul · September 2018

I really don't care anyways. I'll play the game regardless of how hard the developers try to make me hate it. *shrugs

Nerftheforums · September 2018

Noobs and casuals can't take them down. Enough reasons to *** a class

LegacyDM · September 2018

Jameliel wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Because in PvP triple-shield-stacking sorcs are impossible to defeat. Everyone in PvP runs a sorc because of this, except for the handful of stam builds who are allergic to shields.

Because in PvE healers are waiting tables or begging in the streets. Everyone runs only sorcs in dungeons and trials, because insta-shields is godmode, meaning sorcs take absolutely no damage whatsoever while tanking bosses and healing the group.

Thus Nerf Sorc.

This is a lame excuse by someone who has a hard time beating sorcs. Show me a "shield stacking" sorc with enough sustain and power that's "impossible to kill".

Ah let's see in no particular order.

Reddington James
Gundysorc
Beautiful chocolate man
True legend
Perfectly perched pelican
Methuselah
King Richard when he used to play
Sypherpk when he used to play
Xevenx

I'm sure I can think of a dozen more if I really tried. No doubt these are all very good players but with shield mechanics currently the way they are they are impossible to kill. They never run out of stamina and never let their shield down and hit like a truck. These pros have perfected their builds and have exploited shield mechanics forever. It's time shields got a Nerf. I don't agree with 1 sec cast time but when Sorcs are stacking 50-80k shields and hitting like a damn truck there is a problem. When the general mass players have adopted their builds even the average player feels like a god to fight against.

Fiktius · September 2018

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

more and more im leaning towards the possibility that Artificial Intelligence is calling the shots and decision making for nerfs and such in ESO.

I heard rumours that Molag Bal is now part of the combat developer team.
I guess he got finally frustrated about Sorcs stacking those shields front of his eyes in Coldharbour and now he's taking a revenge.

Splattercat_83 · September 2018

therift wrote: »

Because in PvP triple-shield-stacking sorcs are impossible to defeat. Everyone in PvP runs a sorc because of this, except for the handful of stam builds who are allergic to shields.

Because in PvE healers are waiting tables or begging in the streets. Everyone runs only sorcs in dungeons and trials, because insta-shields is godmode, meaning sorcs take absolutely no damage whatsoever while tanking bosses and healing the group.

Thus Nerf Sorc.

I would like to know which trials or which groups are going in and not getting wiped within the first 10 seconds of a boss fight without a healer. I play with some of the best guys on xbox and we always have 2 healers going into trials. Dungeons are a different subject tho. Shields are only used for heavy damage spikes. Also when I PVPed, I had no problems with sorc, roll around a bit and dodge their burst (frags) block on the curse explosion. I also paid attention to when they applied their sheilds and watch how they moved. keep ccing them and putting pressure on them when they stopped sprinting and dodge rolling, and started applying their sheilds more ofen that was when you waited 3 to 4 seconds and cced them and hit em with the burst and watch em melt. Now your just going to watch em melt lol

D0PAMINE · September 2018

I never stacked shields on my Sorc. What skills did people give up on their bars to do this anyway? And why doesn't ZOS just remove stacking of shields? I like fighting good Sorcs and don't want people to stop playing them because they're becoming more risk than reward for the player. My StamDK reflects and their shield helps neutralize that threat. Then we keep going until one of us wears the other one down. Im fine with fighting Stamina HA players but I like a variety of enemies with different builds. No one likes cast times. The people defending them wont be using Magicka shields in content the cast times affect. Thats a fact.

StamWhipCultist · September 2018

Urvoth wrote: »

I can kill shield users fine in PvP, and my own shields get taken off quite easily, so I'm really not sure how they're OP in PvP, at least in non-CP. BGs are basically StamGrounds at the moment, and with spammable gap closers, swift, speed pots, etc, the range vs melee thing isn't really relevant. Without range or the ability to stun break and roll dodge continuously, shields are important for light armor mag builds to survive.

In PvE, shields only help you live through stuff that would kill you regardless, so nerfing them isn't going to help healers be more effective, unless constantly ressing makes healers "feel more useful." If ZOS wants to buff healers, they should give them better group utility and not make so many 1-shot mechanics.

With this in mind, what exactly is the "problem" with shields? PvP already leans towards stam players, and shields are necessary in PvE thanks to the prevalence of 1-shot mechanics.

You can kill unskilled shield users. But many can.
On live issue is that one can stack 3 powerful magicka based shields that cannot be crited, give better tankiness than actual tanks have and compared to how effective they are, the tradeoff is way too small. Introducing fatigue to shields same as streak have would not be the right solution, since it would drain sorcerers out of magicka way too fast, and force them to go double sustain sets all the time. I dont think one second cast is the best possible solution, but it will bring excitement to sorc lifes. At least to these who are not losers with greatest achievement in life being "iQuit".

D0PAMINE · September 2018

double post

Tonturri · September 2018

THe current issue with shields is that they're...inflexible, as a mechanic. They're extremely limited. While shields are balanced, it's a tentative balance, which makes it extremely difficult to do...well, anything with 'em. Remember pirate skeleton?

I applaud ZOS for trying to make shields more interactable with the rest of the game, though I have some beef with some of their specific decisions.

But otherwise, no, nothing is wrong with em and the people who have issues fighting against shields need to git gud or whatever the term is.

StamWhipCultist · September 2018

D0PAMINE wrote: »

I never stacked shields on my Sorc. What skills did people give up on their bars to do this anyway? And why doesn't ZOS just remove stacking of shields? I like fighting good Sorcs and don't want people to stop playing them because they're becoming more risk than reward for the player. My StamDK reflects and their shield helps neutralize that threat. Then we keep going until one of us wears the other one down. Im fine with fighting Stamina HA players but I like a variety of enemies with different builds. No one likes cast times. The people defending them wont be using Magicka shields in content the cast times affect. Thats a fact.

sDK reflects what from a sorc? frags? overload attacks?
Crushing shock - not reflected
Haunting curse - not reflected
mages wrath - not reflected
meteor - not reflected
prison - not reflected
if pet sorc- pet bs not reflected
if mine camper - mines not reflected.
if using lightning staff - heavy attack not reflected.
streak - not reflected.

Beardimus · September 2018

Urvoth wrote: »

I can kill shield users fine in PvP, and my own shields get taken off quite easily, so I'm really not sure how they're OP in PvP, at least in non-CP. BGs are basically StamGrounds at the moment, and with spammable gap closers, swift, speed pots, etc, the range vs melee thing isn't really relevant. Without range or the ability to stun break and roll dodge continuously, shields are important for light armor mag builds to survive.

In PvE, shields only help you live through stuff that would kill you regardless, so nerfing them isn't going to help healers be more effective, unless constantly ressing makes healers "feel more useful." If ZOS wants to buff healers, they should give them better group utility and not make so many 1-shot mechanics.

With this in mind, what exactly is the "problem" with shields? PvP already leans towards stam players, and shields are necessary in PvE thanks to the prevalence of 1-shot mechanics.

Folks new to PvP struggle with ward users in particular sorcs. It takes different counters, and they don't realise this.

They come to the forum to talk about it. The Nerf sorc brigade are keen for any excuse to male noise and so always support the antiWard debate. It's just one of those topics that's easy to great volume about as new players will just concur.

Sadly volume on here creates change / balance, we have seen that pattern. Hence sorc & other light armour users are now loud. It's a learnt behaviour from others

Beardimus · September 2018

therift wrote: »

Because in PvP triple-shield-stacking sorcs are impossible to defeat. Everyone in PvP runs a sorc because of this, except for the handful of stam builds who are allergic to shields.

Because in PvE healers are waiting tables or begging in the streets. Everyone runs only sorcs in dungeons and trials, because insta-shields is godmode, meaning sorcs take absolutely no damage whatsoever while tanking bosses and healing the group.

Thus Nerf Sorc.

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