Did ZOS Just Kill Solo Play With This One Set?

Jjitsuboy98 · September 2018

I have heard this stacks with multiple people wearing it against you. Like there is no way to even do anything you will die Everytime. If this goes live and works like this it will be the nail in the coffin for me. This is way worse than sloads ever thought about being. Overpowered healers are annoying for sure but multiple people running this will destroy a solo player for good.

Doctordarkspawn · September 2018

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Don't worry, solo play is already plenty dead even without this set going live. Solo Stamden, Stamplar, Magsorc are done son with these patch notes. Guess it's time for everyone to roll NB.

You want a solo build? Use Leki's + Fury on a heavy bleedblade, and enjoy the passive 50% AoE reduction with Evasion. There's a solo build that's still usable. lol

Stamplar isn't dead. PVP maybe but it's far from dead.

Weps · September 2018

I hope this thing is. at least, purgeable.
Can't keep going like this, finding a balance with Major Defile and then give something that's even MORE powerful than Major Defile straight away.

Stop making us jump from one cancer meta to another, make skill a core part of a game again.
Thans

jcm2606 · September 2018

Scrap the entire set and take it back to the drawing boards. If Zenimax really intended for it to be used as a counter to healbots and tanky builds, then so be it, come up with another set that fulfills the same purpose, that isn't laughably broken.

Aebaradath · September 2018

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

for a long time, (years even) we see people insta healing from 3% health and almost dead to INSTANT health 100% full.
something needed to be done, it looks like a very good step in the right direction.

"...a very good step in the right direction." I just threw up.

Of course you support this set.

Strider__Roshin · September 2018

I'm more concerned about being immediately deleted by someone wearing the strategist set honestly. But yeah I'm not expecting to heal anymore in Cyrodiil lol

StShoot · September 2018

PureEnvelope35 wrote: »

An_An wrote: »

How surprising, an over performing set behind a paywall... it kills me that this *** marketing tactic works ...

ZOS, in the off chance any of you are actually reading this , this mentality is why folks are leaving for better MMOs

It's a reward's for the worthy set, which makes it easily accessible.

Tbh that is even worse xD

HankTwo · September 2018

Ok, so here is some math (warning long post):

The amount of attempts to proc this set should follow a geometric distribution. Since the debuff has a 25% chance to proc on melee attacks, you will see it proccing around 50% of the time in 2 or less attacks (median). However, since there will be outliers, where the set won't proc even after many attempts, you will need an average of 4 melee attacks to proc it (mean). With perfect weaving you can do this in around 2 seconds, but lets say during an average combat situation you will need 3 seconds to do these 4 attacks.

So, for our model the set will have an average uptime of 4/(4+3) = 57.14%. This means that the set will reduce your healing received - on average - by 5500/4*.5714 = 786 health per second (as long as you heal for at least 1375 health per second). For some people this may not sound like much but lets compare it to a similar set we have right now: Ward of Cyrodiil. This set is usually viewed as one of the best defile sets for single target pressure. It applies major defile with an uptime of 3/5 = 60%. This means, that it will on average reduce your healing received by 0.3*0.6 = 18% (in no CP campaign and battlegrounds).

Therefore, unless your target heals for 786/.18 = 4367 health per second or more, Soldier of Anguish will be the better set… just think about that for a moment, 4.4k healing per second (remember, that this is a timed average, not some burst healing) is a huge number in no CP PvP. Self buffed on my heavy armor stamDK, an active vigor heals me for 1742 health per second (6 ticks in 5 seconds and crits factored in).

But lets look at a realistic combat situation. If I don't actively heal, a soldier of Soldier of Anguish will completely negate the effect of a lingering health potion and the forward momentum/rally HOT for 4 seconds. If I, in addition, use vigor to 'counter' that, it will basically negate the first 2 to 3 ticks, wasting more of my healing than Ward of Cyrodiil ever could. These 3 healing sources combined will heal me self buffed for 2766 health per second (3084 with health regen factored in), so lets see how the performance of these sets would compare to each other quantitatively:

If I spam vigor: (3084-786)/3084 = 74.5% of my normal healing done or in other words a 25.5% reduction. 25.5/18 = 1.417, which means that Soldier of Anguish would be 41.7% better than Ward of Cyrodiil.

Against my 'passive' HOTs the calculation is a bit more complicated, since I don't get above 1375 healing per second, but it would result in: (1034*3/7+318)/(1034+318) = 56.3% healing done or in other words a 43.7% reduction. In this case (43.7/18 = 2.428) Soldier of Anguish would be a whooping 142.8% better than Ward of Cyrodiil.

As you can see Soldier of Anguish is comparatively better the less healing the target does, and defile sets only get close to its performance when the opponent has lots of healing. However, the threshold where this set gets actually worse than Ward of Cyrodiil is extremely high. It seems that the only scenario where Soldier of Anguish would not be preferable to a set like Ward of Cyrodiil is when pitted against a dedicated heal build. Overall, this set will hurt well rounded builds the most and it will bring back overwhelming healing reduction for solo players in no CP, albeit in a new form.

P.S.: If my math is somewhere off please feel free to correct me, I would appreciate it.

Savos_Saren · September 2018

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

nothing wrong with healing to full health, but when it's INSTANT from 3% to immediately FULL 100% health it ruins pvp.
people have been complaining about that for Years.

and i agree with those complaints.

edit:
i wouldn't wory about this though just from an armor set.
1 person wearing that set wont be much of a problem, your complaint was about multiple people wearing that set and i bet that will be a rare event to find multiple people wearing that same set.

I can definitely see a Nightblade running this set...

Weps · September 2018

Rework it please, this is gonna be another cancer and will spawn another list of QQs from hell as soon as it hits live.

LeifErickson · September 2018

HankTwo wrote: »

Ok, so here is some math (warning long post):

The amount of attempts to proc this set should follow a geometric distribution. Since the debuff has a 25% chance to proc on melee attacks, you will see it proccing around 50% of the time in 2 or less attacks (median). However, since there will be outliers, where the set won't proc even after many attempts, you will need an average of 4 melee attacks to proc it (mean). With perfect weaving you can do this in around 2 seconds, but lets say during an average combat situation you will need 3 seconds to do these 4 attacks.

So, for our model the set will have an average uptime of 4/(4+3) = 57.14%. This means that the set will reduce your healing received - on average - by 5500/4*.5714 = 786 health per second (as long as you heal for at least 1375 health per second). For some people this may not sound like much but lets compare it to a similar set we have right now: Ward of Cyrodiil. This set is usually viewed as one of the best defile sets for single target pressure. It applies major defile with an uptime of 3/5 = 60%. This means, that it will on average reduce your healing received by 0.3*0.6 = 18% (in no CP campaign and battlegrounds).

Therefore, unless your target heals for 786/.18 = 4367 health per second or more, Soldier of Anguish will be the better set… just think about that for a moment, 4.4k healing per second (remember, that this is a timed average, not some burst healing) is a huge number in no CP PvP. Self buffed on my heavy armor stamDK, an active vigor heals me for 1742 health per second (6 ticks in 5 seconds and crits factored in).

But lets look at a realistic combat situation. If I don't actively heal, a soldier of Soldier of Anguish will completely negate the effect of a lingering health potion and the forward momentum/rally HOT for 4 seconds. If I, in addition, use vigor to 'counter' that, it will basically negate the first 2 to 3 ticks, wasting more of my healing than Ward of Cyrodiil ever could. These 3 healing sources combined will heal me self buffed for 2766 health per second (3084 with health regen factored in), so lets see how the performance of these sets would compare to each other quantitatively:

If I spam vigor: (3084-786)/3084 = 74.5% of my normal healing done or in other words a 25.5% reduction. 25.5/18 = 1.417, which means that Soldier of Anguish would be 41.7% better than Ward of Cyrodiil.

Against my 'passive' HOTs the calculation is a bit more complicated, since I don't get above 1375 healing per second, but it would result in: (1034*3/7+318)/(1034+318) = 56.3% healing done or in other words a 43.7% reduction. In this case (43.7/18 = 2.428) Soldier of Anguish would be a whooping 142.8% better than Ward of Cyrodiil.

As you can see Soldier of Anguish is comparatively better the less healing the target does, and defile sets only get close to its performance when the opponent has lots of healing. However, the threshold where this set gets actually worse than Ward of Cyrodiil is extremely high. It seems that the only scenario where Soldier of Anguish would not be preferable to a set like Ward of Cyrodiil is when pitted against a dedicated heal build. Overall, this set will hurt well rounded builds the most and it will bring back overwhelming healing reduction for solo players in no CP, albeit in a new form.

P.S.: If my math is somewhere off please feel free to correct me, I would appreciate it.

This doesn't even take into account that Soldier of Anguish can stack while Ward of Cyrodiil can't.

HankTwo · September 2018

@LeifErickson true, but I also wanted to counter the argument that the set would be OK as long as it wouldn't be allowed to stack. To me the 5p bonus looks like it would be overperforming even in a 1v1 scenario.

Dashmatt · September 2018

Weps wrote: »

I hope this thing is. at least, purgeable.
Can't keep going like this, finding a balance with Major Defile and then give something that's even MORE powerful than Major Defile straight away.

Stop making us jump from one cancer meta to another, make skill a core part of a game again.
Thans

Does it even matter if it is purgeable, if it stacks from multiple players, with a 4 second cooldown?

This set is bad for the game. Don’t even nerf it, just replace the 5 piece with something else.

glavius · September 2018

Jaxaxo wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

5500 dot which ignores resistances and dmg reduction. It's kinda funny, after "nerfing" defiles they added even more powerfull, easily procced, mechanic which stacks with defile. And the only class which can really compete with this set is nb (due to cloak), which is highly overperforming atm. So ye, great design. Almost as good as shieldbreaker. But we can always slot shields to coutner it... Oh, wait...

Btw, metabuild next patch: heavy stamblade with troll king, master duals, sload and this set. This gonna be gud

Heavy bleedblades are already kinda meta, I would say. Honestly, when I first read that set description, I imagined your bleedblade with the set, and it made me shudder xP This set = dead me.

I miss times when it was like 3 nbs like that on Sotha, Mistrija, me and Alyzza, feel a bit bad for current meta on sotha.
I doubt i will run this, same with sload, tried it in first 2 weeks on summerset, set was disgusting, switched back to old thing. But ye, anything that doesnt have shields (oh, w8...) is kinda dead vs this set. Imagine few spambushers on your back with that and sload... mmm... awesome.

I was never a bleedblade

LeifErickson · September 2018

HankTwo wrote: »

@LeifErickson true, but I also wanted to counter the argument that the set would be OK as long as it wouldn't be allowed to stack. To me the 5p bonus looks like it would be overperforming even in a 1v1 scenario.

Oh definitely I totally agree. It will overperform in every situation and I feel like overperform is too weak a word.

Jaxaxo · September 2018

glavius wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

5500 dot which ignores resistances and dmg reduction. It's kinda funny, after "nerfing" defiles they added even more powerfull, easily procced, mechanic which stacks with defile. And the only class which can really compete with this set is nb (due to cloak), which is highly overperforming atm. So ye, great design. Almost as good as shieldbreaker. But we can always slot shields to coutner it... Oh, wait...

Btw, metabuild next patch: heavy stamblade with troll king, master duals, sload and this set. This gonna be gud

Heavy bleedblades are already kinda meta, I would say. Honestly, when I first read that set description, I imagined your bleedblade with the set, and it made me shudder xP This set = dead me.

I miss times when it was like 3 nbs like that on Sotha, Mistrija, me and Alyzza, feel a bit bad for current meta on sotha.
I doubt i will run this, same with sload, tried it in first 2 weeks on summerset, set was disgusting, switched back to old thing. But ye, anything that doesnt have shields (oh, w8...) is kinda dead vs this set. Imagine few spambushers on your back with that and sload... mmm... awesome.

I was never a bleedblade

Soz Glavius, was thinking about heavy trollking nb with a lot of healings, neither any of us was when we started this thing

Lexxypwns · September 2018

@dwemer_paleologist I need help learning to be a better solo player can you maybe share with me your build, it seems OP

NyassaV · September 2018

I miss Dragon Bones

Dreyloch · September 2018

What if they made it 2000, or even 1000 VS. 5500 and NOT be stackable? Would this work? Cause you know some dev somewhere is thinking that's the solution =/ I like the other stats, but ofc the 5th needs a change.

DeadlyRecluse · September 2018

Dreyloch wrote: »

What if they made it 2000, or even 1000 VS. 5500 and NOT be stackable? Would this work? Cause you know some dev somewhere is thinking that's the solution =/ I like the other stats, but ofc the 5th needs a change.

I think if it was 2000-2500 or so and didn't stack, nobody would really have a problem with it (especially if the proc chance was brought down a little, increasing the breathing room you'd get between procs to heal up).

Then it's locking you out of 2-3 vigor ticks. Or dulling (but not erasing) your next burst heal. No biggie, but still strong if there's burst in that window.

BrokenGameMechanics · September 2018

LeifErickson wrote: »

Bakkagami wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Soldier of Anguish (Medium)
2: Weapon Damage
3: Weapon Critical
4: Weapon Damage
5: When you deal damage with a melee attack, you have a 25% chance to traumatize your enemy, negating their next 5500 points of healing for 4 seconds. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

It's not a named buff/debuff which I would think means it can stack. Fighting even two people with this set basically means you can't heal. I don't have PTS downloaded yet, but if this set stacks then honestly solo play might be dead. Defiles are horrible solo, but think about if you just straight up can't heal at all. Even fighting one person with this set would be absolutely brutal. I will need to test on PTS when I get it downloaded, but first impressions tell me this might be the end to solo play. Someone please convince me I'm wrong.

I don't see this set going live without getting nerfed tbh. It will perform even better than duroks in many situations

That's why I'm making this thread. I want to raise awareness for how over powered this set will be. If no one raises awareness for these things they won't get changed.

Certainly a nice set and I'm a steady 7 Med, no proc BS set guy. This _might_ change that. However, I think people are really underestimating the loss of Shuffle for Med players. Yes rng based but 15% of all damage failing to hit is 15% damage not happening. Now it is only 25% reduction in AOE. Well that cold fire, or Eye of Flame etc is STILL going to drop my <20K health toon regardless. ALL other damage that WAS missing will now be hitting just fine.

In other words, Medium is now more brittle / glass then ever before. Melee damage means up close and at risk for dropping from any decent < 3 shots.

If it OPs they will (post-release) just nerf it down. How much Sloads do you see now? It's a marketing technique here we've all seen before. DLC sets are on the OP side. Buy DLC and you too can have the short term new meta, but wait a bit and its over. I just keep using my same boring no proc bread and butter sets and ignore the Set Of The Day thing. Sure you'll get a few deaths now from Anguish, but less from Sloads, etc. It's always been like that and always will be like that. Why fight it or get worked up about it?

LeifErickson · September 2018

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Bakkagami wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Soldier of Anguish (Medium)
2: Weapon Damage
3: Weapon Critical
4: Weapon Damage
5: When you deal damage with a melee attack, you have a 25% chance to traumatize your enemy, negating their next 5500 points of healing for 4 seconds. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

It's not a named buff/debuff which I would think means it can stack. Fighting even two people with this set basically means you can't heal. I don't have PTS downloaded yet, but if this set stacks then honestly solo play might be dead. Defiles are horrible solo, but think about if you just straight up can't heal at all. Even fighting one person with this set would be absolutely brutal. I will need to test on PTS when I get it downloaded, but first impressions tell me this might be the end to solo play. Someone please convince me I'm wrong.

I don't see this set going live without getting nerfed tbh. It will perform even better than duroks in many situations

That's why I'm making this thread. I want to raise awareness for how over powered this set will be. If no one raises awareness for these things they won't get changed.

Certainly a nice set and I'm a steady 7 Med, no proc BS set guy. This _might_ change that. However, I think people are really underestimating the loss of Shuffle for Med players. Yes rng based but 15% of all damage failing to hit is 15% damage not happening. Now it is only 25% reduction in AOE. Well that cold fire, or Eye of Flame etc is STILL going to drop my <20K health toon regardless. ALL other damage that WAS missing will now be hitting just fine.

In other words, Medium is now more brittle / glass then ever before. Melee damage means up close and at risk for dropping from any decent < 3 shots.

If it OPs they will (post-release) just nerf it down. How much Sloads do you see now? It's a marketing technique here we've all seen before. DLC sets are on the OP side. Buy DLC and you too can have the short term new meta, but wait a bit and its over. I just keep using my same boring no proc bread and butter sets and ignore the Set Of The Day thing. Sure you'll get a few deaths now from Anguish, but less from Sloads, etc. It's always been like that and always will be like that. Why fight it or get worked up about it?

But anguish is a rewards for the worthy set.

BrokenGameMechanics · September 2018

HankTwo wrote: »

Ok, so here is some math (warning long post):

So, for our model the set will have an average uptime of 4/(4+3) = 57.14%. This means that the set will reduce your healing received - on average - by 5500/4*.5714 = 786 health per second (as long as you heal for at least 1375 health per second).

It's a zero sum game. To put this one, one took something off. Well if the set you just took off offered more than 800 net dmg / sec, you doing less net dmg. And I think that is the case for many Medium Sets.

I think this is a very specific and targeted Set against Heal Spamming Ball Groups and/or Unkillable Heal Tanks in PvP and is situational. Is it really such an obviously OP Set you'd wear it day and day out in Cyrodiil and drop Set XYZ based on this math?

Jaxaxo · September 2018

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Ok, so here is some math (warning long post):

So, for our model the set will have an average uptime of 4/(4+3) = 57.14%. This means that the set will reduce your healing received - on average - by 5500/4*.5714 = 786 health per second (as long as you heal for at least 1375 health per second).

It's a zero sum game. To put this one, one took something off. Well if the set you just took off offered more than 800 net dmg / sec, you doing less net dmg. And I think that is the case for many Medium Sets.

I think this is a very specific and targeted Set against Heal Spamming Ball Groups and/or Unkillable Heal Tanks in PvP and is situational. Is it really such an obviously OP Set you'd wear it day and day out in Cyrodiil and drop Set XYZ based on this math?

Yes. Especially on noncp campaign/battelgrounds, where u dont have cp that increase healing. Vs heal spamming ball groups u have morph of that psijic skill. And it shoudl work vs healtanks too, cuz i doubt they have enough mobility to avoid spam of this skill. But in solo/smallscale/dueling environment this set is gonna be cancer, like i said, especially in noncp. It was same situation with sload, it was "only" 853 dmg per second. And it was enough that whole noncp/bgs were cancered by that set. Here we have 1125 dmg per second. Which works even better when u defile somebody before.

Xsorus · September 2018

They basically added a 5500 point dot, that doesn't do actual damage...

*grin*.

Jaxaxo wrote: »

5500 dot which ignores resistances and dmg reduction. It's kinda funny, after "nerfing" defiles they added even more powerfull, easily procced, mechanic which stacks with defile. And the only class which can really compete with this set is nb (due to cloak), which is highly overperforming atm. So ye, great design. Almost as good as shieldbreaker. But we can always slot shields to coutner it... Oh, wait...

Btw, metabuild next patch: heavy stamblade with troll king, master duals, sload and this set. This gonna be gud

So it does less damage then sheer venom is what you’re saying?

Xsorus · September 2018

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Dreyloch wrote: »

What if they made it 2000, or even 1000 VS. 5500 and NOT be stackable? Would this work? Cause you know some dev somewhere is thinking that's the solution =/ I like the other stats, but ofc the 5th needs a change.

I think if it was 2000-2500 or so and didn't stack, nobody would really have a problem with it (especially if the proc chance was brought down a little, increasing the breathing room you'd get between procs to heal up).

Then it's locking you out of 2-3 vigor ticks. Or dulling (but not erasing) your next burst heal. No biggie, but still strong if there's burst in that window.

No one would use the set, why would you use a set that does less damage then viper? And didn’t stack.

I mean you realize this set technically only does slightly more damage then vma two hander right? If you consider it even damage.

Rianai · September 2018

Sheer Venom has a 8,4k tooltip over 6s, which gets halved by battlespirit and further reduced by resistance/dmg reduction so 500-700 dps. Sloads, which is still op vs anything that can't spam dodge, deals 853 dps. Soldier of Anguish is more compareable to an unmitigateable 1k+/s dot, so almost twice as much "dmg" as Sheer Venom and also more than Sloads.

Lexxypwns · September 2018

Xsorus wrote: »

They basically added a 5500 point dot, that doesn't do actual damage...

*grin*.

Jaxaxo wrote: »

5500 dot which ignores resistances and dmg reduction. It's kinda funny, after "nerfing" defiles they added even more powerfull, easily procced, mechanic which stacks with defile. And the only class which can really compete with this set is nb (due to cloak), which is highly overperforming atm. So ye, great design. Almost as good as shieldbreaker. But we can always slot shields to coutner it... Oh, wait...

Btw, metabuild next patch: heavy stamblade with troll king, master duals, sload and this set. This gonna be gud

So it does less damage then sheer venom is what you’re saying?

It’s not a DoT at all, it’s burst damage effectively because all the healing prevention happens upfront.

leepalmer95 · September 2018

Xsorus wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Dreyloch wrote: »

What if they made it 2000, or even 1000 VS. 5500 and NOT be stackable? Would this work? Cause you know some dev somewhere is thinking that's the solution =/ I like the other stats, but ofc the 5th needs a change.

I think if it was 2000-2500 or so and didn't stack, nobody would really have a problem with it (especially if the proc chance was brought down a little, increasing the breathing room you'd get between procs to heal up).

Then it's locking you out of 2-3 vigor ticks. Or dulling (but not erasing) your next burst heal. No biggie, but still strong if there's burst in that window.

No one would use the set, why would you use a set that does less damage then viper? And didn’t stack.

I mean you realize this set technically only does slightly more damage then vma two hander right? If you consider it even damage.

Viper is a dot, this isn't.

Xsorus · September 2018

Rianai wrote: »

Sheer Venom has a 8,4k tooltip over 6s, which gets halved by battlespirit and further reduced by resistance/dmg reduction so 500-700 dps. Sloads, which is still op vs anything that can't spam dodge, deals 853 dps. Soldier of Anguish is more compareable to an unmitigateable 1k+/s dot, so almost twice as much "dmg" as Sheer Venom and also more than Sloads.

My Sheer Venom is over 10k over 6 seconds