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Alternative nerf to damage shields
ankeor
✭✭✭✭✭
Damage shields are basicly emergency skills, okay? The cast time makes no sense. It leaves you vulnerable, what is the point? I know that, you know that, Wrobel should have known that and ofc Gilliamtherogue knows that while he is crying in the restroom at Zenimax office. If you ZOS insist on shields nerf there are alternatives of cast time. For example;
1- Casting a damage shield skill grants you an effect that generates the full shield 1 sec later. It means that even you get the damage shield 1 sec later there is no cast time.
or
2- Casting a damage shield skill generates the full shield over 3-5 sec. Considering resist-crit changings about the shield this would work like a overheal. Only difference would be it doesn't get effected by healing buffs-debuffs. And shield spamming would be less effective.
or
3- While channeling a damage shield skill you will have cc immunity. So even the cast time stays it can not be interrupted.
These are what I could think as alternative nerfs to damage shields. It took like 15-20 min. These options may not be the best solutions. But I'm sure a developer SHOULD have done better.
1- Casting a damage shield skill grants you an effect that generates the full shield 1 sec later. It means that even you get the damage shield 1 sec later there is no cast time.
or
2- Casting a damage shield skill generates the full shield over 3-5 sec. Considering resist-crit changings about the shield this would work like a overheal. Only difference would be it doesn't get effected by healing buffs-debuffs. And shield spamming would be less effective.
or
3- While channeling a damage shield skill you will have cc immunity. So even the cast time stays it can not be interrupted.
These are what I could think as alternative nerfs to damage shields. It took like 15-20 min. These options may not be the best solutions. But I'm sure a developer SHOULD have done better.
7
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profundidob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭How about adding a short CD to shield casting ? This makes it still useful to emergency save yourself but makes spamming the same 1 skill impossible3 -
ankeor✭✭✭✭✭profundidob16_ESO wrote: »How about adding a short CD to shield casting ? This makes it still useful to emergency save yourself but makes spamming the same 1 skill impossible
No skill has any cooldowns so i would say no. It wouldn't be fair.1 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭They should have made all damage shields scale off health. Problem solved.
Oh great ... that again.
Yeah sure, let's slap the biggest, meanest shields on tanks that already barely take any damage and have huge HP pools b/c that's not gonna be balanced. And at the same time leave Light Armor builds which are inherently very squishy with very small shields.
That idea even trumps the 1 sec cast time in terms shortsightedness.2 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭1- Casting a damage shield skill grants you an effect that generates the full shield 1 sec later. It means that even you get the damage shield 1 sec later there is no cast time.
This right here maintains the spirit of the nerf (requiring you to precast shields rather than responsively stack them) while keeping gameplay fluid. It's probably the best alternate suggestion so far, imo.
Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Excellent ideas, at least the first one. The current cast time imposition:- Reduces DPS (you can't weave, you can't use that time to restore resources).
- Allows shields to be interrupted.
- Is unpleasantly clunky and un-fun.
- Causes greater "overshielding", because if one is uncertain whether a shield will be needed one must cast it just in case.
Your suggestions do NOT eliminate the greater overshielding part of the nerf. But they do address the other drawbacks.0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TBH I think that making shields crit-able feels enough. I really don't understand why they want cast time on that.
And as far as I understood - penetration will also be useful against some one using dmg shields because now actually armour is also taken in to account:
from PTS:
"Your Spell and Physical Resistance now reduces incoming damage before it is applied to your damage shield."
So if you have penetration (example: sharpened weapon or you are using a mace) - then you ignore some armour mitigation and more dmg goes to shields.0 -
oxygen_thief✭✭✭✭✭
✭the only way to nerf shields is too nerf bastion star. it will reduce shields thickness in cp environment.0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭rather than cast time how about the cost increased to 6000 and a shield debuff that drops your magicka regen by 50% for 4 seconds for the magicka based shields.
retains emergency use but cant be kept up all the time.
similar to how they did balance or pirate skeleton.Old Rungar always gives what's needed.
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We knew there was going to be a DPS nerf after Summerset buffed light attacks, so ZOS took aim at LA and MA survivability.
We knew that ZOS wants healers to be more useful, so ZOS took aim at LA and MA survivability.
The dodge chance and damage shield nerfs achieved that goal for ZOS. Any suggested chances need to offer the same benefits for ZOS.1 -
oxygen_thief✭✭✭✭✭
✭rather than cast time how about the cost increased to 6000 and a shield debuff that drops your magicka regen by 50% for 4 seconds for the magicka based shields.
retains emergency use but cant be kept up all the time.
similar to how they did balance or pirate skeleton.
oh one more good idea. it will be fine in case they will add 20K of s/p resistance to the light armor then i would gladly just drop those stupid shields from my bar0 -
caperon✭✭✭✭The Five Stages of Grief
DENIAL Denial is the first of the five stages of grief. ...
ANGER Anger is a necessary stage of the healing process. ...
BARGAINING Before a loss, it seems like you will do anything if only your loved one would be spared. ...
DEPRESSION After bargaining, our attention moves squarely into the present.
ACCEPTANCE Acceptance is often confused with the notion of being “all right” or “OK” with what has happened.
Are we at the bargaining phase already?Edited by caperon on September 19, 2018 4:21PM3 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They should have made all damage shields scale off health. Problem solved.
Oh great ... that again.
Yeah sure, let's slap the biggest, meanest shields on tanks that already barely take any damage and have huge HP pools b/c that's not gonna be balanced. And at the same time leave Light Armor builds which are inherently very squishy with very small shields.
That idea even trumps the 1 sec cast time in terms shortsightedness.
Umm. That is EXACTLY what ZOS did. The health-scaling shields remained instant. You can build a 90K hp tank today or next patch and spam bone shield all you want, and it is balanced because it is self limiting...stack too high in one area and you become ineffectual in the other required areas.
The entire gripe about shields is that you could build for full offense and get giant shields at the same time.
If they all scale from health, the player to make the build decision how much offense do you want to give up for defense, and what is the best, most efficient mix...just like you do today balancing damage vs sustain (or mitigation, or health regen, or health, whatever). It is hook that keeps people playing of this type of game and why there are thousands of build videos and an audience to actually watch them.
1 -
Vesper_BR✭✭✭I have two suggestions:
1) make shields work like hots... You cast it and it grows in 5s... From the minimum to max value, and stays for 10s. It will work like a pre defense against burst damages but will retain it from being spammed to be more tank than you should be.
2) apply a colldown on each of those 2 shields, (light armour and sorc), I think that a colldown of 5 seconds I good enough to prevent abusing from light armour users and forcing them to take some air to rebuff, like streaking away or cloaking.
These two options still retain the fluid aspect of PvP and bring the survivability of shield users in the same level of non shield users, at the same time makes the healler a import role to maintain those people alive in the shield colldown or while they are taking pressure.
Pls note that I have a lot of time of eso and by the time I have these was the two best solutions I could bring that would be fair PvP and PVE wise. (I PLAY BOTH WITH STAM AND MAG TOONS). I mostly magdk and mag sorc pve, and stamwarden and magdk PvP.
Thoughts?Edited by Vesper_BR on September 19, 2018 4:51PMVESPER BR - MAGICKA DRAGONKNIGHT - GRAND OVERLORD + FLAWLESS CONQUEROR (1070 CP / 01-01-2018)
XBOX ONE - NA - EBONHEART PACT BRASIL0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The Five Stages of Grief
DENIAL Denial is the first of the five stages of grief. ...
ANGER Anger is a necessary stage of the healing process. ...
BARGAINING Before a loss, it seems like you will do anything if only your loved one would be spared. ...
DEPRESSION After bargaining, our attention moves squarely into the present.
ACCEPTANCE Acceptance is often confused with the notion of being “all right” or “OK” with what has happened.
Are we at the bargaining phase already?
Oh, we're definitely at bargaining.
I'm at the resigned acceptance phase. ZOS wants to nerf damage shields in PVP and PVE so ZOS is going to do what they want, regardless of player input.1 -
ankeor✭✭✭✭✭The Five Stages of Grief
DENIAL Denial is the first of the five stages of grief. ...
ANGER Anger is a necessary stage of the healing process. ...
BARGAINING Before a loss, it seems like you will do anything if only your loved one would be spared. ...
DEPRESSION After bargaining, our attention moves squarely into the present.
ACCEPTANCE Acceptance is often confused with the notion of being “all right” or “OK” with what has happened.
Are we at the bargaining phase already?
Shield stacking is broken. A nerf was expected by many but admit it. What they have done is pure bs. I say this as a stamina nb player, someone doesn't use shield at all. Even if this goes live it will not effect me really. What bothers me is the mentality of the balance team itself. Think about it. A defense tool that leaves you vulnerable for a while. It doesn't make sense. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE! If they look at this idea and think that it is okay, how can i trust them not f'#$& my gameplay next patch. Yet right now I'm not whining about nb skill cost increases here because i get their point. Did I like it? Absolutely no. Because they either want me to do heavy attack or pay for race change token to change my khajiit into a redguard. I hated those changes but i get the point. But I worry about the path they chose for the game.
Besides you ignore the stage which can nullifies all other stages. It's QUITING. I hope people who got tired of of this game actually quit or unsub for a while or forever. Then maybe ZOS can realize they can't s#!+ on this game as they wish. Because for them money speaks. Everything else is irrelevant.
TL;DR
YOU CAN TRUST SOMEONE ON PHYSICS WHO IS BAD AT MATH.
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Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Both the OP alternatives are preferable to cast time.
Another option would be instant cast shields but change shields so that they only absorb 50% of incoming damage (until the shield value is used up). This way you could technically still stack shields but the benefit would be severely reduced and shields would have to be supplemented with additional defenses.1 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Both the OP alternatives are preferable to cast time.
Another option would be instant cast shields but change shields so that they only absorb 50% of incoming damage (until the shield value is used up). This way you could technically still stack shields but the benefit would be severely reduced and shields would have to be supplemented with additional defenses.
Again: If I need to sacrifice the already meager backloaded highly telegraphed damage for being able to survive a few seconds longer, I don’t try to make it work somehow with a gimped version. I’d simply switch to stamDen or stamNB.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
ankeor✭✭✭✭✭I have two suggestions:
1) make shields work like hots... You cast it and it grows in 5s... From the minimum to max value, and stays for 10s. It will work like a pre defense against burst damages but will retain it from being spammed to be more tank than you should be.
Thoughts?
This was my second option.2) apply a colldown on each of those 2 shields, (light armour and sorc), I think that a colldown of 5 seconds I good enough to prevent abusing from light armour users and forcing them to take some air to rebuff, like streaking away or cloaking.
Thoughts?
This is suggested by many but I object because there is not one single abilty in game with a cooldown. Applying it to one skill would not be fair no matter what. If ZOS goes down that line there are dozens of other skills on the list.0 -
CaptainVenom✭✭✭✭✭
✭1. Shields don't fully protect the caster anymore: they absorb 90% of damage received, and 10% goes to target's Health.🌈 Ride with Pride🌈
Magicka/Damage Sorcerer - PC - NA - DC1 -
Vesper_BR✭✭✭I have two suggestions:
1) make shields work like hots... You cast it and it grows in 5s... From the minimum to max value, and stays for 10s. It will work like a pre defense against burst damages but will retain it from being spammed to be more tank than you should be.
Thoughts?
This was my second option.2) apply a colldown on each of those 2 shields, (light armour and sorc), I think that a colldown of 5 seconds I good enough to prevent abusing from light armour users and forcing them to take some air to rebuff, like streaking away or cloaking.
Thoughts?
This is suggested by many but I object because there is not one single abilty in game with a cooldown. Applying it to one skill would not be fair no matter what. If ZOS goes down that line there are dozens of other skills on the list.
Power lash has a 3s colldown....VESPER BR - MAGICKA DRAGONKNIGHT - GRAND OVERLORD + FLAWLESS CONQUEROR (1070 CP / 01-01-2018)
XBOX ONE - NA - EBONHEART PACT BRASIL0 -
ankeor✭✭✭✭✭I have two suggestions:
1) make shields work like hots... You cast it and it grows in 5s... From the minimum to max value, and stays for 10s. It will work like a pre defense against burst damages but will retain it from being spammed to be more tank than you should be.
Thoughts?
This was my second option.2) apply a colldown on each of those 2 shields, (light armour and sorc), I think that a colldown of 5 seconds I good enough to prevent abusing from light armour users and forcing them to take some air to rebuff, like streaking away or cloaking.
Thoughts?
This is suggested by many but I object because there is not one single abilty in game with a cooldown. Applying it to one skill would not be fair no matter what. If ZOS goes down that line there are dozens of other skills on the list.
Power lash has a 3s colldown....
It is a proc.0 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They should have made all damage shields scale off health. Problem solved.
Oh great ... that again.
Yeah sure, let's slap the biggest, meanest shields on tanks that already barely take any damage and have huge HP pools b/c that's not gonna be balanced. And at the same time leave Light Armor builds which are inherently very squishy with very small shields.
That idea even trumps the 1 sec cast time in terms shortsightedness.
Umm. That is EXACTLY what ZOS did. The health-scaling shields remained instant. You can build a 90K hp tank today or next patch and spam bone shield all you want, and it is balanced because it is self limiting...stack too high in one area and you become ineffectual in the other required areas.
The entire gripe about shields is that you could build for full offense and get giant shields at the same time.
If they all scale from health, the player to make the build decision how much offense do you want to give up for defense, and what is the best, most efficient mix...just like you do today balancing damage vs sustain (or mitigation, or health regen, or health, whatever). It is hook that keeps people playing of this type of game and why there are thousands of build videos and an audience to actually watch them.
That's really the crux of it, and has been for 4 years. Health-scaling shields are not an issue because you gain defense by stating for defense. It's always been magicka scaling shields that have been a balancing issue, and that ZOS decided to only give those a cast time shows that they are very aware of the difference, even if it's not discussed a lot on the forums right now.
Ideally, you wouldn't gain more defense the more you put into your offensive stat. Of course, this is also a bit of an issue with healing, although it's not as pronounced for a few reasons (e.g. healing CP in the same tree as offensive perks). So to streamline all shields to scale with health seems intuitive at first.
Problem is, obviously, that shields are currently the only viable form of defense for light armor magicka builds, and health-scaling shields would not be enough for them without being overpowered for health builds. Conceptually, adding a cast time to counter the benefits of magicka shields is not entirely stupid, it just doesn't work for the purpose shields have to serve. Honestly, I think we should either accept that mages can have their magicka-cake and eat it too, or purposefully redesign magicka shields to offer a comparative defense to blocking and dodging.
Comparative means
a) To be used situationally, not all the time
b) Not being able to attack at the same time
c) Consuming magicka instead of stamina
d) Should not be interruptable
Yes, b) would make it kind of a nerf. But I think even here there can be some compromises.
We don't even have to reinvent the wheel. Skyrim already introduced something like this: Restoration Wards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToveYadszIc
Channel
Cost: x Magicka per second
Effect: Create a damage shield that increases by y per 0.5 seconds up to z shield strength. After the channel ends, the shield dissipates after t seconds. Can't be interrupted.
The specific values are of course up for debate, but this seems like a good compromise that is in line with other defensive mechanics in the game and the TES IP as a whole. You can use such a channeled ward reactively and preemptively, it can keep you alive for as long as you have magicka but is not reapplied fully in the blink of an eye, doesn't open you up completely and is not interruptable. And if you have the foresight to use it preemptively, you can still attack while your shield is up like before.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DeadlyRecluse wrote: »1- Casting a damage shield skill grants you an effect that generates the full shield 1 sec later. It means that even you get the damage shield 1 sec later there is no cast time.
This right here maintains the spirit of the nerf (requiring you to precast HIGH VALUEshields rather than responsively stack them) while keeping gameplay fluid. It's probably the best alternate suggestion so far, imo.
fixed. Small value shields are weaker and therefore don't need cast times
Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DeadlyRecluse wrote: »1- Casting a damage shield skill grants you an effect that generates the full shield 1 sec later. It means that even you get the damage shield 1 sec later there is no cast time.
This right here maintains the spirit of the nerf (requiring you to precast HIGH VALUEshields rather than responsively stack them) while keeping gameplay fluid. It's probably the best alternate suggestion so far, imo.
fixed. Small value shields are weaker and therefore don't need cast times
Lol yeah, I'm good with that.
...you must also be stuck at a desk today, eh?Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub0
