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PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Templar
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ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
This is straight crazy talk my man - Repentance is the bee's knees, the pig's wings, and the ant's pants. One of juiciest skills in the game.
Please tell me how juicy it is when you're main tanking in vAS.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
Sun Shield:
I'd still prefer to use my magicka on a heal at 2x the effectiveness. At 35k HP and 25k magicka Honor the Dead heals for more than 1/2 of the shield provided by this skill, and is also cheaper if used once every 6s. Shields need to be the last line of defense before HP is taken if this is supposed to be the Templar equivalent of a proper HP% heal. Most notably it has to benefit from block.
Stamplars get stam for rune now so having that extra stam after a kill will never be bad . Repentance was bad because stamplars had no passive regen, now they do.
Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the skill is useless. There is literally 0 reason to even morph it. In fact your group will be better off if you don't.
Useless in what pve?.
Useless anywhere. If stuff is dying all around you, you don't really need it to begin with. And when you do need it, there is nothing to repent. That's the definition of a useless skill and a wasted skill slot.
You probably don’t pvp. I don’t know how many times this skill has saved me when I was starving for resources because multiple people was beating on me. Or getting a well timed repent in a bgs match.
The problem with repent was the fact it was stamplars only sustain option and as a result many relied on using bone pirate. Plus zos made it so only one stamplar can repent. Now stamplars have passive regen and still can make use of repentance.
Stamplars that play small scale just got a lot better.
You're right, I don't PvP. I tank. Now that Templars have a passive regen skill, repentance may as well be completely redesigned to be something actually useful in more than mass PvP. I wouldn't even use it if it returned 20k stamina for each corpse, because in situations when I need it the most there aren't any corpses around.0 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
This is straight crazy talk my man - Repentance is the bee's knees, the pig's wings, and the ant's pants. One of juiciest skills in the game.
Please tell me how juicy it is when you're main tanking in vAS.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
Sun Shield:
I'd still prefer to use my magicka on a heal at 2x the effectiveness. At 35k HP and 25k magicka Honor the Dead heals for more than 1/2 of the shield provided by this skill, and is also cheaper if used once every 6s. Shields need to be the last line of defense before HP is taken if this is supposed to be the Templar equivalent of a proper HP% heal. Most notably it has to benefit from block.
Stamplars get stam for rune now so having that extra stam after a kill will never be bad . Repentance was bad because stamplars had no passive regen, now they do.
Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the skill is useless. There is literally 0 reason to even morph it. In fact your group will be better off if you don't.
Useless in what pve?.
Useless anywhere. If stuff is dying all around you, you don't really need it to begin with. And when you do need it, there is nothing to repent. That's the definition of a useless skill and a wasted skill slot.
You probably don’t pvp. I don’t know how many times this skill has saved me when I was starving for resources because multiple people was beating on me. Or getting a well timed repent in a bgs match.
The problem with repent was the fact it was stamplars only sustain option and as a result many relied on using bone pirate. Plus zos made it so only one stamplar can repent. Now stamplars have passive regen and still can make use of repentance.
Stamplars that play small scale just got a lot better.
You're right, I don't PvP. I tank. Now that Templars have a passive regen skill, repentance may as well be completely redesigned to be something actually useful in more than mass PvP. I wouldn't even use it if it returned 20k stamina for each corpse, because in situations when I need it the most there aren't any corpses around.
So you play one specific role and play one specific type of gameplay - tanking in pve dungeons. Just because you think the skill is useless for your niche playstyle (which is still foolish, because 18k free stam is amazing and most bosses have adds that you can repent during the fight) doesnt mean the skill is useless. If you dont want to use it...then don’t, but that doesn’t mean its useless."Only the dead have seen the end of war."3 -
JimmyJuJu✭✭✭✭Since this is a feedback forum - the icing on the cake for repentance would be to bring back some of the stam return to the group. The heals are shared, but the stam return is not.
Maybe not the full repent amount but possibly a percentage (as a compromise). So, when I repent I receive 2.7k stam for each corpse and my group receives 50% of that. Even 25% would be welcome!
But don't get me wrong - individual repentance is a fantastic buff for the skill, no doubt about it. I look forward to seeing more stamplars running around Tamriel
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danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »I think people need to remember that the 25% AoE reduction will only amount to a real world reduction of maybe 20% tops on a medium armour build with no other damage reduction than just the armour mitigation.
Add to that fact that Jabs got an 8% straight up buff to it's damage, and Minor Sorcery got a 5% increase to its buff (which would be at least 2.5% real world) and Templar damage for Sweeps was effectivle buffed by at least 11%.
So that 25% reduction is only going to be 9% reduction compared to live at most and probably less.
? Wut ?
That 25% reduction is best used in PVP ... you know the place where one anyways only hits for 50% . Obviously mitigation of damage IS still active ... and i feel changing to heavy armor is the best I can do (i suppose I am not the only DWer with this line of thinking ) -> effectively increasing my damage mitigation and beeing able to utilize 25% AOE damage reduction via blade cloak. The changes to evasion funnel this change... and , because of them, I most probably won't use jabs in PVP, too.
Because damage reductions are multiplicative with each other. The more you add the less each is worth.
But multiplication only applies for the same type ? In effect jabs get hit by 50% damage reduction due to battle scaling (as always), the remaining 50% then may get hit by the 25% damage reduction due to evasion and after that, the pitifull remaining 25% damage is going to be migitated (... if lucky by a heavy armor wearer at resistance hard cap migitating another 25% (or was that 30?) ...(in other words: someone like me when update 20 hits (DW/heavy armour)).
Sure effectively we will only see a 12,5% damage reduction (compared to PVE) due to evasion changes...but you have to explain to me which PVE mob you would expect to use evasion in order to actually make such a comparison in the first place....
Effectively evasion will hit templars jabs in PVP ONLY... and here it will create a damage loss. There is no viewpoint to make this look better.
Yah, the math in testing isn't working out the way I assumed it did. In fact what I have found is that the new Major Evasion seems to be stacking additively when I also used the new Empowering Sweep Ultimate for Major Protection.
Just Medium Armour = Jabs hits player for 978 normal
With Major Evasion = Jabs hits for 745 normal (almost exactly 25% less)
With Major Protection and Major Evasion = 453 normal (almost exactly 55% less, ie 25%+30%)
Dang. I was really hoping to go back to Jabs in PvP, as weaving EW is terrible I find. I might have to use Force Shock.1 -
JimmyJuJu✭✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »I think people need to remember that the 25% AoE reduction will only amount to a real world reduction of maybe 20% tops on a medium armour build with no other damage reduction than just the armour mitigation.
Add to that fact that Jabs got an 8% straight up buff to it's damage, and Minor Sorcery got a 5% increase to its buff (which would be at least 2.5% real world) and Templar damage for Sweeps was effectivle buffed by at least 11%.
So that 25% reduction is only going to be 9% reduction compared to live at most and probably less.
? Wut ?
That 25% reduction is best used in PVP ... you know the place where one anyways only hits for 50% . Obviously mitigation of damage IS still active ... and i feel changing to heavy armor is the best I can do (i suppose I am not the only DWer with this line of thinking ) -> effectively increasing my damage mitigation and beeing able to utilize 25% AOE damage reduction via blade cloak. The changes to evasion funnel this change... and , because of them, I most probably won't use jabs in PVP, too.
Because damage reductions are multiplicative with each other. The more you add the less each is worth.
But multiplication only applies for the same type ? In effect jabs get hit by 50% damage reduction due to battle scaling (as always), the remaining 50% then may get hit by the 25% damage reduction due to evasion and after that, the pitifull remaining 25% damage is going to be migitated (... if lucky by a heavy armor wearer at resistance hard cap migitating another 25% (or was that 30?) ...(in other words: someone like me when update 20 hits (DW/heavy armour)).
Sure effectively we will only see a 12,5% damage reduction (compared to PVE) due to evasion changes...but you have to explain to me which PVE mob you would expect to use evasion in order to actually make such a comparison in the first place....
Effectively evasion will hit templars jabs in PVP ONLY... and here it will create a damage loss. There is no viewpoint to make this look better.
Yah, the math in testing isn't working out the way I assumed it did. In fact what I have found is that the new Major Evasion seems to be stacking additively when I also used the new Empowering Sweep Ultimate for Major Protection.
Just Medium Armour = Jabs hits player for 978 normal
With Major Evasion = Jabs hits for 745 normal (almost exactly 25% less)
With Major Protection and Major Evasion = 453 normal (almost exactly 55% less, ie 25%+30%)
Dang. I was really hoping to go back to Jabs in PvP, as weaving EW is terrible I find. I might have to use Force Shock.
I don't really use jabs for damage, I use jabs as a class skill to apply all the melee buffs/debuffs. I'm thinking Affliction, Viper, (new) Ward of Cyrodiil, Ravager, and a couple of the upcoming murkmire sets. Plus, jabs does do some damage and procs the aedric spear passives (i.e. burning light). On its own, jabs tends to be a wet noodle in pvp. Holistically though, I am keeping it on my offensive bar for all the other good stuff it can bring.0 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Elsterchen wrote: »Elsterchen wrote: »I think people need to remember that the 25% AoE reduction will only amount to a real world reduction of maybe 20% tops on a medium armour build with no other damage reduction than just the armour mitigation.
Add to that fact that Jabs got an 8% straight up buff to it's damage, and Minor Sorcery got a 5% increase to its buff (which would be at least 2.5% real world) and Templar damage for Sweeps was effectivle buffed by at least 11%.
So that 25% reduction is only going to be 9% reduction compared to live at most and probably less.
? Wut ?
That 25% reduction is best used in PVP ... you know the place where one anyways only hits for 50% . Obviously mitigation of damage IS still active ... and i feel changing to heavy armor is the best I can do (i suppose I am not the only DWer with this line of thinking ) -> effectively increasing my damage mitigation and beeing able to utilize 25% AOE damage reduction via blade cloak. The changes to evasion funnel this change... and , because of them, I most probably won't use jabs in PVP, too.
Because damage reductions are multiplicative with each other. The more you add the less each is worth.
But multiplication only applies for the same type ? In effect jabs get hit by 50% damage reduction due to battle scaling (as always), the remaining 50% then may get hit by the 25% damage reduction due to evasion and after that, the pitifull remaining 25% damage is going to be migitated (... if lucky by a heavy armor wearer at resistance hard cap migitating another 25% (or was that 30?) ...(in other words: someone like me when update 20 hits (DW/heavy armour)).
Sure effectively we will only see a 12,5% damage reduction (compared to PVE) due to evasion changes...but you have to explain to me which PVE mob you would expect to use evasion in order to actually make such a comparison in the first place....
Effectively evasion will hit templars jabs in PVP ONLY... and here it will create a damage loss. There is no viewpoint to make this look better.
Yah, the math in testing isn't working out the way I assumed it did. In fact what I have found is that the new Major Evasion seems to be stacking additively when I also used the new Empowering Sweep Ultimate for Major Protection.
Just Medium Armour = Jabs hits player for 978 normal
With Major Evasion = Jabs hits for 745 normal (almost exactly 25% less)
With Major Protection and Major Evasion = 453 normal (almost exactly 55% less, ie 25%+30%)
Dang. I was really hoping to go back to Jabs in PvP, as weaving EW is terrible I find. I might have to use Force Shock.
Ty for testing!
Its the way the reduction is calculated... different types factor in at different times. But have a look at destruction staff abilities ... some of them are going to be less effective due to evasion changes, too (in PVP).
Good luck.Edited by Elsterchen on September 18, 2018 6:46PM0 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Gilliamtherogue
@Joy_Division
@Tasear
@Checkmath
Can you please make a note to bring up the issue (in next rep meeting) with Evasion + Leki's/Basion of the Heartland potentially stacking for a stupid amount of AoE dmg reduction in PvP?
Also 25% reduction from Evasion is entirely too high, as @Minno pointed out it's a noticable nerf to Jabs damage output. If they want to help medium armor they need to find a way to do it without also benefiting heavy builds.
Can you please make the important point that the new Evasion changes help NB's disproportionately by protecting them against a lot of combos that are threatening to them while not affecting their gank/burst combos at all?Edited by WreckfulAbandon on September 18, 2018 6:53PMPC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP3 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WreckfulAbandon wrote: »@Gilliamtherogue
@Joy_Division
@Tasear
@Checkmath
Can you please make a note to bring up the issue (in next rep meeting) with Evasion + Leki's/Basion of the Heartland potentially stacking for a stupid amount of AoE dmg reduction in PvP?
Also 25% reduction from Evasion is entirely too high, as @Minno pointed out it's a noticable nerf to Jabs damage output. If they want to help medium armor they need to find a way to do it without also benefiting heavy builds.
Can you please make the important point that the new Evasion changes help NB's disproportionately by protecting them against a lot of combos that are threatening to them while not affecting their gank/burst combos at all?
Keep in mind, you can already do this now on live. It's just most don't do it, because you have to roll blade cloak and a 5pc set.
It won't protect you from combined AOE burst. But it will mess up jabs. They should remove blade cloak 25% and instead give a tiny little shield.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Keep in mind, you can already do this now on live. It's just most don't do it, because you have to roll blade cloak and a 5pc set.
It won't protect you from combined AOE burst. But it will mess up jabs. They should remove blade cloak 25% and instead give a tiny little shield.
Right, but rolling the same buff from Blade Cloak into Evasion makes it all the more accessible and at that point more people will have it than not. I never liked that buff on DW tree because it gives high damage builds a lot of dmg reduction, but this change manages to make it worse. I like @Joy_Division 's idea to make the closest target not receive AoE reduction from Jabs/Sweeps.PC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Keep in mind, you can already do this now on live. It's just most don't do it, because you have to roll blade cloak and a 5pc set.
It won't protect you from combined AOE burst. But it will mess up jabs. They should remove blade cloak 25% and instead give a tiny little shield.
Right, but rolling the same buff from Blade Cloak into Evasion makes it all the more accessible and at that point more people will have it than not. I never liked that buff on DW tree because it gives high damage builds a lot of dmg reduction, but this change manages to make it worse. I like @Joy_Division 's idea to make the closest target not receive AoE reduction from Jabs/Sweeps.
I agree as well, and agree on the bold. Just wanted to point out we can still get the double stack scenario on live. Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭WreckfulAbandon wrote: »@Gilliamtherogue
@Joy_Division
@Tasear
@Checkmath
Can you please make a note to bring up the issue (in next rep meeting) with Evasion + Leki's/Basion of the Heartland potentially stacking for a stupid amount of AoE dmg reduction in PvP?
Also 25% reduction from Evasion is entirely too high, as @Minno pointed out it's a noticable nerf to Jabs damage output. If they want to help medium armor they need to find a way to do it without also benefiting heavy builds.
Can you please make the important point that the new Evasion changes help NB's disproportionately by protecting them against a lot of combos that are threatening to them while not affecting their gank/burst combos at all?
Keep in mind, you can already do this now on live. It's just most don't do it, because you have to roll blade cloak and a 5pc set.
It won't protect you from combined AOE burst. But it will mess up jabs. They should remove blade cloak 25% and instead give a tiny little shield.
No.
I am fine with everyone getting new evasion and blade cloak not beeing a unique skill anymore... but the suggestion of making it a tiny shield can only come from a jelly 2H wielder... and i disagree.
edit: No hard feelings @Minno, I know you try to keep discussions constructive, but playing DW on live means melee range most of the time ... a shield (a tiny one on top of that!) will not help this playstile at all in PVP (and thats when changes to evasion will kick in). DW means face to face combat most of the time, in close range to usually more then one attacker ... without the benefits of heavy armor or 1H and Shield or the option to stray of a little further and charge back with a stun (like 2H offers). We stay right there, we have too ... thats why we have to utilize blade cloak - a shield will not do. Very little is changing this situation with the evasion changes, exept that we probably need to stay close for an even longer time since our targets are expected to reduce our aoe damage. The option to utilize the new evasion through blade cloak while wearing heavy armor is (imo) the only viable solution.
I am sorry that 2H user will have to decide for either heavy armor or new evasion, but to be honest BOTH offer viable options for 2H PVP. I don't see this choice for DW - we are still stuck at melee range, even more so with the range changes affecting hidden blade (our only ranged ability, that now yields the multiple target option way less usefull then on live without any damage increase to the single target option). So even with a nice to have stun (binding javelline) DW has to stay up close.Edited by Elsterchen on September 18, 2018 7:46PM0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »WreckfulAbandon wrote: »@Gilliamtherogue
@Joy_Division
@Tasear
@Checkmath
Can you please make a note to bring up the issue (in next rep meeting) with Evasion + Leki's/Basion of the Heartland potentially stacking for a stupid amount of AoE dmg reduction in PvP?
Also 25% reduction from Evasion is entirely too high, as @Minno pointed out it's a noticable nerf to Jabs damage output. If they want to help medium armor they need to find a way to do it without also benefiting heavy builds.
Can you please make the important point that the new Evasion changes help NB's disproportionately by protecting them against a lot of combos that are threatening to them while not affecting their gank/burst combos at all?
Keep in mind, you can already do this now on live. It's just most don't do it, because you have to roll blade cloak and a 5pc set.
It won't protect you from combined AOE burst. But it will mess up jabs. They should remove blade cloak 25% and instead give a tiny little shield.
No.
I am fine with everyone getting new evasion and blade cloak not beeing a unique skill anymore... but the suggestion of making it a tiny shield can only come from a jelly 2H wielder... and i disagree.
edit: No hard feelings @Minno, I know you try to keep discussions constructive, but playing DW on live means melee range most of the time ... a shield (a tiny one on top of that!) will not help this playstile at all in PVP (and thats when changes to evasion will kick in). DW means face to face combat most of the time, in close range to usually more then one attacker ... without the benefits of heavy armor or 1H and Shield or the option to stray of a little further and charge back with a stun (like 2H offers). We stay right there, we have too ... thats why we have to utilize blade cloak - a shield will not do. Very little is changing this situation with the evasion changes, exept that we probably need to stay close for an even longer time since our targets are expected to reduce our aoe damage. The option to utilize the new evasion through blade cloak while wearing heavy armor is (imo) the only viable solution.
I am sorry that 2H user will have to decide for either heavy armor or new evasion, but to be honest BOTH offer viable options for 2H PVP. I don't see this choice for DW - we are still stuck at melee range, even more so with the range changes affecting hidden blade (our only ranged ability, that now yields the multiple target option way less usefull then on live without any damage increase to the single target option). So even with a nice to have stun (binding javelline) DW has to stay up close.
no harm feelings taken! someone has to make as many suggestions as possible and someone has to offer counter arguments.
I agree that DW needs it's survival. Though im just worried about our jabs in PVP.
I need to test on some duels this weekend.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WreckfulAbandon wrote: »@Gilliamtherogue
@Joy_Division
@Tasear
@Checkmath
Can you please make a note to bring up the issue (in next rep meeting) with Evasion + Leki's/Basion of the Heartland potentially stacking for a stupid amount of AoE dmg reduction in PvP?
Also 25% reduction from Evasion is entirely too high, as @Minno pointed out it's a noticable nerf to Jabs damage output. If they want to help medium armor they need to find a way to do it without also benefiting heavy builds.
Can you please make the important point that the new Evasion changes help NB's disproportionately by protecting them against a lot of combos that are threatening to them while not affecting their gank/burst combos at all?
My main issue with Sweeps is that I'd bet real money something is wrong with how damage is calculated. I forget what patch (it's been so long, I wanna say Morrowind but I could be mistaken), but all of a sudden, the damage I see in (CP) PvP is consistently much lower.
You run a combat log and eventually you get a feel for how much jabs hits typical players (excluding tanks). In homestead, I ran a heavy armor build with Lich that was medium damage and this was typical against an experienced player:
Then, all of a sudden, sub1000 hits and even crits became commonplace. Right now a run a light armor build that's medium damage and this is typically what I get
@Cinbri posted screenshots clearly showing something was not quite right with how Sweeps was getting mitigated, but it's been so long, he no longer has them and it never got acknowledged.
As a result, I only slot this skill for the 10% crit passive and pretty much try to avoid using it because that's just terrible damage.
I guess what I am saying here is that, yeah, templars are getting the short end of the stick because their spammable is going to get mitigated by 25% by at least half of their opponents in Cyrodiil. But the skill is busted to begin with that I'm not sure it should even be used in the first place.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.5 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »WreckfulAbandon wrote: »@Gilliamtherogue
@Joy_Division
@Tasear
@Checkmath
Can you please make a note to bring up the issue (in next rep meeting) with Evasion + Leki's/Basion of the Heartland potentially stacking for a stupid amount of AoE dmg reduction in PvP?
Also 25% reduction from Evasion is entirely too high, as @Minno pointed out it's a noticable nerf to Jabs damage output. If they want to help medium armor they need to find a way to do it without also benefiting heavy builds.
Can you please make the important point that the new Evasion changes help NB's disproportionately by protecting them against a lot of combos that are threatening to them while not affecting their gank/burst combos at all?
My main issue with Sweeps is that I'd bet real money something is wrong with how damage is calculated. I forget what patch (it's been so long, I wanna say Morrowind but I could be mistaken), but all of a sudden, the damage I see in (CP) PvP is consistently much lower.
You run a combat log and eventually you get a feel for how much jabs hits typical players (excluding tanks). In homestead, I ran a heavy armor build with Lich that was medium damage and this was typical against an experienced player:
Then, all of a sudden, sub1000 hits and even crits became commonplace. Right now a run a light armor build that's medium damage and this is typically what I get
@Cinbri posted screenshots clearly showing something was not quite right with how Sweeps was getting mitigated, but it's been so long, he no longer has them and it never got acknowledged.
As a result, I only slot this skill for the 10% crit passive and pretty much try to avoid using it because that's just terrible damage.
I guess what I am saying here is that, yeah, templars are getting the short end of the stick because their spammable is going to get mitigated by 25% by at least half of their opponents in Cyrodiil. But the skill is busted to begin with that I'm not sure it should even be used in the first place.
Weird thought, maybe its suffering from the same bug hardy/ele defender had with ironclad (where if you dumped points into ironclad first before hardy/ele def you lost mitigation.) Maybe the same is happening with jabs; dumping points into master at arms before ele expert/physical expert is causing dmg to be lost.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
This is straight crazy talk my man - Repentance is the bee's knees, the pig's wings, and the ant's pants. One of juiciest skills in the game.
Please tell me how juicy it is when you're main tanking in vAS.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
Sun Shield:
I'd still prefer to use my magicka on a heal at 2x the effectiveness. At 35k HP and 25k magicka Honor the Dead heals for more than 1/2 of the shield provided by this skill, and is also cheaper if used once every 6s. Shields need to be the last line of defense before HP is taken if this is supposed to be the Templar equivalent of a proper HP% heal. Most notably it has to benefit from block.
Stamplars get stam for rune now so having that extra stam after a kill will never be bad . Repentance was bad because stamplars had no passive regen, now they do.
Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the skill is useless. There is literally 0 reason to even morph it. In fact your group will be better off if you don't.
Useless in what pve?.
Useless anywhere. If stuff is dying all around you, you don't really need it to begin with. And when you do need it, there is nothing to repent. That's the definition of a useless skill and a wasted skill slot.
You probably don’t pvp. I don’t know how many times this skill has saved me when I was starving for resources because multiple people was beating on me. Or getting a well timed repent in a bgs match.
The problem with repent was the fact it was stamplars only sustain option and as a result many relied on using bone pirate. Plus zos made it so only one stamplar can repent. Now stamplars have passive regen and still can make use of repentance.
Stamplars that play small scale just got a lot better.
You're right, I don't PvP. I tank. Now that Templars have a passive regen skill, repentance may as well be completely redesigned to be something actually useful in more than mass PvP. I wouldn't even use it if it returned 20k stamina for each corpse, because in situations when I need it the most there aren't any corpses around.
So you play one specific role and play one specific type of gameplay - tanking in pve dungeons. Just because you think the skill is useless for your niche playstyle (which is still foolish, because 18k free stam is amazing and most bosses have adds that you can repent during the fight) doesnt mean the skill is useless. If you dont want to use it...then don’t, but that doesn’t mean its useless.
A lot of bosses in trials do not have adds dying next to the main tank. If you don't want me to turn the boss around to hit you with a cleave in your face, you won't be telling me how awesome repentance is, because that's what I would have to do to reach the corpses for those 18k stam you talk about. I bet you also wouldn't particularly like it if I dragged the boss around to grab that corpse on the other side of the room just because I need stamina. The only one being foolish is you by suggesting that this skill isn't poorly designed.
And this skill is useless in more than PvE tanking, it's useless basically anywhere where you aren't being swarmed by a crowd of weak enemies. Regardless of your role, that's a very niche use for the skill. And PvE tanking is not "niche", it's an important role in all end game content.
And yeah, I don't use it, I don't even have that skill morphed, because regardless of the morph it's a waste of a skill point. And I wouldn't use it as a DD either for the same reason. You can't argue about play style, because it's useless regardless of your playstyle, it's usefulness depends on the encounter, and not even what encounter, but also how it's handled by you and your group, and you can hardly tell your group to adjust their strategy to help you with your repentance. And you can't tell a corpse to not despawn until you actually need extra stam either, so strategic usage that would make it at least somewhat worthwhile is also not possible.0 -
tamrielwinner✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »tamrielwinner wrote: »old spear wall was better. amazing passive, one of the best that templars have, maybe their best.
I read that as an addition, not a whole sale replacement, is that what it is?
Yes, it is a full replacement.
Spear Wall:
When activating an Aedric Spear ability
Gain Minor Protection for 3 seconds, reducing damage taken by 8%.
I see. I looked it up and I had the wrong passive in mind, I was thinking about the passive piercing spear, so we trade a unique 15% blocking mit, for a minor buff.
yes. the thing is, there are templars out there that don't even use puncturing. or the use is so limited that the 3s minor protection buff(that they could already get from restoring focus) is mostly worthless, especially considering that it was available any time through restoring focus. some will be losing both minor protection(plus minor vitality) that they won't get from puncturing and the 15% melee damage mitigation from spear wall, which will be significant and is a nerf.Edited by tamrielwinner on September 18, 2018 10:42PM1 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WreckfulAbandon wrote: »@Gilliamtherogue
@Joy_Division
@Tasear
@Checkmath
Can you please make a note to bring up the issue (in next rep meeting) with Evasion + Leki's/Basion of the Heartland potentially stacking for a stupid amount of AoE dmg reduction in PvP?
Also 25% reduction from Evasion is entirely too high, as @Minno pointed out it's a noticable nerf to Jabs damage output. If they want to help medium armor they need to find a way to do it without also benefiting heavy builds.
Can you please make the important point that the new Evasion changes help NB's disproportionately by protecting them against a lot of combos that are threatening to them while not affecting their gank/burst combos at all?
I understand your concerns and will note them for others to see it, but would like more information to support it. If you have any videos or numbers of damage lost it will support case more.0 -
jbjondeaueb17_ESO✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »WreckfulAbandon wrote: »@Gilliamtherogue
@Joy_Division
@Tasear
@Checkmath
Can you please make a note to bring up the issue (in next rep meeting) with Evasion + Leki's/Basion of the Heartland potentially stacking for a stupid amount of AoE dmg reduction in PvP?
Also 25% reduction from Evasion is entirely too high, as @Minno pointed out it's a noticable nerf to Jabs damage output. If they want to help medium armor they need to find a way to do it without also benefiting heavy builds.
Can you please make the important point that the new Evasion changes help NB's disproportionately by protecting them against a lot of combos that are threatening to them while not affecting their gank/burst combos at all?
My main issue with Sweeps is that I'd bet real money something is wrong with how damage is calculated. I forget what patch (it's been so long, I wanna say Morrowind but I could be mistaken), but all of a sudden, the damage I see in (CP) PvP is consistently much lower.
You run a combat log and eventually you get a feel for how much jabs hits typical players (excluding tanks). In homestead, I ran a heavy armor build with Lich that was medium damage and this was typical against an experienced player:
Then, all of a sudden, sub1000 hits and even crits became commonplace. Right now a run a light armor build that's medium damage and this is typically what I get
@Cinbri posted screenshots clearly showing something was not quite right with how Sweeps was getting mitigated, but it's been so long, he no longer has them and it never got acknowledged.
As a result, I only slot this skill for the 10% crit passive and pretty much try to avoid using it because that's just terrible damage.
I guess what I am saying here is that, yeah, templars are getting the short end of the stick because their spammable is going to get mitigated by 25% by at least half of their opponents in Cyrodiil. But the skill is busted to begin with that I'm not sure it should even be used in the first place.
And if we're comparing your Burning Light procs there are only hitting a bit less (both CRIT 1831 on the first screenshot, 1740 on the second), so there's definitely something wrong.Pain-Healer - Argonian Templar Healer (EP) - Immortal Redeemer - Gryphon's Heart
Guild : Ghosts and Goblins Target Dummies
Players know me as Jeban2 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭I’m not sure what patch that it was but sweeps and jabs didn’t calculate correctly and the patch went live with it being broke. Zos never fixed it, probably why they’re buffing them.Edited by CatchMeTrolling on September 18, 2018 11:29PM0 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
This is straight crazy talk my man - Repentance is the bee's knees, the pig's wings, and the ant's pants. One of juiciest skills in the game.
Please tell me how juicy it is when you're main tanking in vAS.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
Sun Shield:
I'd still prefer to use my magicka on a heal at 2x the effectiveness. At 35k HP and 25k magicka Honor the Dead heals for more than 1/2 of the shield provided by this skill, and is also cheaper if used once every 6s. Shields need to be the last line of defense before HP is taken if this is supposed to be the Templar equivalent of a proper HP% heal. Most notably it has to benefit from block.
Stamplars get stam for rune now so having that extra stam after a kill will never be bad . Repentance was bad because stamplars had no passive regen, now they do.
Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the skill is useless. There is literally 0 reason to even morph it. In fact your group will be better off if you don't.
Useless in what pve?.
Useless anywhere. If stuff is dying all around you, you don't really need it to begin with. And when you do need it, there is nothing to repent. That's the definition of a useless skill and a wasted skill slot.
You probably don’t pvp. I don’t know how many times this skill has saved me when I was starving for resources because multiple people was beating on me. Or getting a well timed repent in a bgs match.
The problem with repent was the fact it was stamplars only sustain option and as a result many relied on using bone pirate. Plus zos made it so only one stamplar can repent. Now stamplars have passive regen and still can make use of repentance.
Stamplars that play small scale just got a lot better.
You're right, I don't PvP. I tank. Now that Templars have a passive regen skill, repentance may as well be completely redesigned to be something actually useful in more than mass PvP. I wouldn't even use it if it returned 20k stamina for each corpse, because in situations when I need it the most there aren't any corpses around.
So you play one specific role and play one specific type of gameplay - tanking in pve dungeons. Just because you think the skill is useless for your niche playstyle (which is still foolish, because 18k free stam is amazing and most bosses have adds that you can repent during the fight) doesnt mean the skill is useless. If you dont want to use it...then don’t, but that doesn’t mean its useless.
A lot of bosses in trials do not have adds dying next to the main tank. If you don't want me to turn the boss around to hit you with a cleave in your face, you won't be telling me how awesome repentance is, because that's what I would have to do to reach the corpses for those 18k stam you talk about. I bet you also wouldn't particularly like it if I dragged the boss around to grab that corpse on the other side of the room just because I need stamina. The only one being foolish is you by suggesting that this skill isn't poorly designed.
And this skill is useless in more than PvE tanking, it's useless basically anywhere where you aren't being swarmed by a crowd of weak enemies. Regardless of your role, that's a very niche use for the skill. And PvE tanking is not "niche", it's an important role in all end game content.
And yeah, I don't use it, I don't even have that skill morphed, because regardless of the morph it's a waste of a skill point. And I wouldn't use it as a DD either for the same reason. You can't argue about play style, because it's useless regardless of your playstyle, it's usefulness depends on the encounter, and not even what encounter, but also how it's handled by you and your group, and you can hardly tell your group to adjust their strategy to help you with your repentance. And you can't tell a corpse to not despawn until you actually need extra stam either, so strategic usage that would make it at least somewhat worthwhile is also not possible.
Not going to keep arguing with you because you clearly just don't get it. I've already given you plenty of examples of where the skill is useful, and I even gave you a few examples of where the skill's utility declines (certain trial's bosses). The problem is that your stuck with your niche trial's tank mentality and fail to realize that there are more aspects to the game than just tanking trials bosses. Just because you think it's useless does not mean that it is.Edited by NobleX35 on September 18, 2018 11:37PM"Only the dead have seen the end of war."1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
This is straight crazy talk my man - Repentance is the bee's knees, the pig's wings, and the ant's pants. One of juiciest skills in the game.
Please tell me how juicy it is when you're main tanking in vAS.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
Sun Shield:
I'd still prefer to use my magicka on a heal at 2x the effectiveness. At 35k HP and 25k magicka Honor the Dead heals for more than 1/2 of the shield provided by this skill, and is also cheaper if used once every 6s. Shields need to be the last line of defense before HP is taken if this is supposed to be the Templar equivalent of a proper HP% heal. Most notably it has to benefit from block.
Stamplars get stam for rune now so having that extra stam after a kill will never be bad . Repentance was bad because stamplars had no passive regen, now they do.
Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the skill is useless. There is literally 0 reason to even morph it. In fact your group will be better off if you don't.
Useless in what pve?.
Useless anywhere. If stuff is dying all around you, you don't really need it to begin with. And when you do need it, there is nothing to repent. That's the definition of a useless skill and a wasted skill slot.
You probably don’t pvp. I don’t know how many times this skill has saved me when I was starving for resources because multiple people was beating on me. Or getting a well timed repent in a bgs match.
The problem with repent was the fact it was stamplars only sustain option and as a result many relied on using bone pirate. Plus zos made it so only one stamplar can repent. Now stamplars have passive regen and still can make use of repentance.
Stamplars that play small scale just got a lot better.
You're right, I don't PvP. I tank. Now that Templars have a passive regen skill, repentance may as well be completely redesigned to be something actually useful in more than mass PvP. I wouldn't even use it if it returned 20k stamina for each corpse, because in situations when I need it the most there aren't any corpses around.
So you play one specific role and play one specific type of gameplay - tanking in pve dungeons. Just because you think the skill is useless for your niche playstyle (which is still foolish, because 18k free stam is amazing and most bosses have adds that you can repent during the fight) doesnt mean the skill is useless. If you dont want to use it...then don’t, but that doesn’t mean its useless.
A lot of bosses in trials do not have adds dying next to the main tank. If you don't want me to turn the boss around to hit you with a cleave in your face, you won't be telling me how awesome repentance is, because that's what I would have to do to reach the corpses for those 18k stam you talk about. I bet you also wouldn't particularly like it if I dragged the boss around to grab that corpse on the other side of the room just because I need stamina. The only one being foolish is you by suggesting that this skill isn't poorly designed.
And this skill is useless in more than PvE tanking, it's useless basically anywhere where you aren't being swarmed by a crowd of weak enemies. Regardless of your role, that's a very niche use for the skill. And PvE tanking is not "niche", it's an important role in all end game content.
And yeah, I don't use it, I don't even have that skill morphed, because regardless of the morph it's a waste of a skill point. And I wouldn't use it as a DD either for the same reason. You can't argue about play style, because it's useless regardless of your playstyle, it's usefulness depends on the encounter, and not even what encounter, but also how it's handled by you and your group, and you can hardly tell your group to adjust their strategy to help you with your repentance. And you can't tell a corpse to not despawn until you actually need extra stam either, so strategic usage that would make it at least somewhat worthwhile is also not possible.
Not going to keep arguing with you because you clearly just don't get it. I've already given you plenty of examples of where the skill is useful, and I even gave you a few examples of where the skill's utility declines (certain trial's bosses). The problem is that your stuck with your niche trial's tank mentality and fail to realize that there are more aspects to the game than just tanking trials bosses. Just because you think it's useless does not mean that it is.
I mean if that is what he enjoys and he finds that the repentance is useless to him, that is fine feedback.
Though the morph is still mostly PVP oriented and I think thats fine too.
They need to adjust radiant aura to maybe give tanks/pvp templars interesting yet unique utility, and most feel that is the suggested feedback too.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual2 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭I have never tried a Templar, so I dont understand all this good feedback on this thread. All ive heard before is how it has bad sustain and poor mobility.
Should I make a stamplar or a mageplar? And why?0 -
JimmyJuJu✭✭✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »I have never tried a Templar, so I dont understand all this good feedback on this thread. All ive heard before is how it has bad sustain and poor mobility.
Should I make a stamplar or a mageplar? And why?
Why not make both? Personally, I think stamplar is receiving more love for Murkmire, so start there.
If you roll a Dunmer stamplar, you can pretty easily re-roll a magplar on the same toon. You lose some max stats vs other classes (like Orc or Redguard for stam and Altmer for mag) but it gives you some flexibility either way.0 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »I have never tried a Templar, so I dont understand all this good feedback on this thread. All ive heard before is how it has bad sustain and poor mobility.
Should I make a stamplar or a mageplar? And why?
If you are thinking of rolling Stamplar or Magplar to chase the latest meta, you will be disappointed.
Templars will be getting a few skills/passive reworks that will bring them up a little (and blessedly no direct nerfs), but they will in no way be sitting on top of the pile in any area that I can see.
People are seeing that Templars are the only class not complaining (too much) this patch, but they forget just how much better other classes are to play in most areas of the game.
Also, as a class that has an AoE as a spammable, and AoE reduction is going to be more prevalent next patch, Templars won't be leapfrogging anyone in the PvP DPS race.5 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »I have never tried a Templar, so I dont understand all this good feedback on this thread. All ive heard before is how it has bad sustain and poor mobility.
Should I make a stamplar or a mageplar? And why?
If you are thinking of rolling Stamplar or Magplar to chase the latest meta, you will be disappointed.
Templars will be getting a few skills/passive reworks that will bring them up a little (and blessedly no direct nerfs), but they will in no way be sitting on top of the pile in any area that I can see.
People are seeing that Templars are the only class not complaining (too much) this patch, but they forget just how much better other classes are to play in most areas of the game.
Also, as a class that has an AoE as a spammable, and AoE reduction is going to be more prevalent next patch, Templars won't be leapfrogging anyone in the PvP DPS race.
Agreed. The templar changes aren't bad at all, but if we get an Evasion meta on top of the speed meta, templar will suffer a net nerf.
I feel like the thing keeping templars reasonably playable is that Ritual is so strong with so many poisons and bleeds and scattershot around.0 -
LeifErickson✭✭✭✭✭
✭Guys someone said earlier in the thread that radial sweep is broken and the new morph is doing damage based off physical penetration instead of spell penetration. We need to make sure that gets fixed as well as any possible bugs with jabs.0 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »I have never tried a Templar, so I dont understand all this good feedback on this thread. All ive heard before is how it has bad sustain and poor mobility.
Should I make a stamplar or a mageplar? And why?
Why not make both? Personally, I think stamplar is receiving more love for Murkmire, so start there.
If you roll a Dunmer stamplar, you can pretty easily re-roll a magplar on the same toon. You lose some max stats vs other classes (like Orc or Redguard for stam and Altmer for mag) but it gives you some flexibility either way.
They’d be better off running argonian to switch between stam and mag.
Edited by CatchMeTrolling on September 19, 2018 2:15PM0 -
Weps✭✭✭✭Everything that was done was awesome to be honest.
Great work for both PvE and PvP, can't wait to use my templars next patch.
I hope you're gonna use this as an example how you should bring a class back from the Dead and buff it with a fair amount of balance.
Wonderful work, from the devs and the class Reps submitting the appropriate and right feedback.
G *** G.PS4 EU - CP 1000+ - EP Loyal
My EU PreciousesAemon Dk | Imperial Dragonknight Tank
Guari Gaburiefu | PvP Stamplar - Soon PvE tank
Nadija Zenobia | 45k+ PvE Dk - PvP Leaper
Naga del Serpente | High Elf Magicka Sorc PVE DPS - Soon tb 2nd crafter
Azor Ahai V | Dunmer Magicka DK for PVP and Pve
Jabba D'Cat | Khajiit Stamplar
Gennarino Auditore | 7k Weapon damage Bosmer Stamblade / Ganking experimental build
Rina Inbasu | Dunmer Magblade, my bomblade
Zelgadis Greywords | High Elf Magplar
Nachael Jordan | Redguard Stamsorc DPS
Orghuz Diul | StamWar DPS
This-Will-Buff-If | Argonian Warden Trial Off tank
Amelia Tesla Sallilune | Breton Magden PvP DD / PvE healer
Sap-My-Shield | PvP Nooblade, now dead PvE Tank0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Haven't test yet if burning light cooldown is separate for each target.
But here is what else I tested:
- light armor snare/sprint changes works wonderfully with race against time. 50% + 15% stacks so templars using light armor can get 65% sprint reduction. I barely run under 80% stamina pool with restoring rune.
- restoring rune is almost predominantly pvp oriented (or tanks for pve). You can sustain block, sustain sprint and get stamina back at a much faster rate after cc'ed resulting in less deaths due to poor stamina sustain. Casting forward momentum with rune resulting in recouping the skill cost in conjunction with effective regen (exactly as expected). I use ele drain with 1700-1800 buffed mag regen to replace channeled focus though.
- radiant ward was weirdly satisfying under the armor changes. haven't done a legit duel yet to test how effective it is against a 1.85 modifer enemy.
- empowering sweeps tooltip for me was 10k fully buffed. Either choose that with major protection for 6 seconds or run dawnbreaker for 2-3k more dmg with stun. I know magplar needed a burst ultimate so the cresant sweep changed needed to happen, but light armor + empowering looks promising due to the cheap 75 ultimate cost and you get a sustain boost, extra mag for sorcery, snare reduction/sprint, and the penetration + crit chance offers a decent offensive buff for you to select defensive options. Does require an offensive set or 2 to compensate for the burst loss.
- 1 second cast time on shields doesnt feel like a negative as much, IF the shield value can be 10k+ for 9+ seconds. Otherwise reverse the cast time on shields if you arent going to have shield values ignore battlespirit.
Will test further. Templar still needs some pain points (and my feedback in my other post is still current, especially for cresant/empowering sweep hitbox/range feeling tiny) but some of the changes look ok.
No feedback on stamplar except they need extra healing, better duration off minor protection, and a cheap mag morph of sun shield (give them blazing+lower its costs) if they want to increase uptime on the protection.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Haven't test yet if burning light cooldown is separate for each target.
Quick test:
Lined up 5 dummies and spammed PS for 25 seconds got 37 Burning Light procs
1 dummy spamming PS for 25 seconds got 19 procs.
We would expect to roughly 5x the single dummy parse, but only see around double. This is likely because the 5 dummies saturate the .5 second cooldown much better than just 1 does.
In short, no it doesn't proc per opponent. Was there a reason you thought it would?1