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Improving class balance in ESO - Alterations to Ground AoEs and Spammables

Masel
Masel
Class Representative
Changelog: formatting finished.

In this abstract, I will take a look at some class defining abilities in order to determine how class balancing can be improved. It is a bit of a read and think, but once you understand the points below you might get a better understanding of esos combat and why it is imbalanced.

First of all, it is important to understand how Base damage calculation works:

The core formula for most abilities in ESO looks as follows:

Base Damage=a*Maximum Magicka+b*Spell Damage+Intercept

So basically a simple linear regression with two independent variables that determine the variation of the Base damage.
Knowing this, we can get into the abilities that define differences between classes. Every class has access to a ground area of effect and all but sorcerers have access to a spammable ability that was originally intended to fill the gap between your damage over time abilities.

Let’s look at the five ground AoEs and their slope coefficients:

DV8nA2h.png

It is visible that both Blazing Spear and eruption have an initial hit applied at every cast of the ability. So in order to determine the overall damage we get from these abilities, we need to divide the initial hit by the duration of the skill, because we usually want to cast these only when they run out. The damage over time portion is calculated as dps already, as all the above skills tick once per second.
Now assuming a Value of 40000 for Maximum Magicka and 2500 for Spell Damage, we reach the following values for the damage per second:

X7PCHfG.png

When comparing the above values, we can see that eruption does by far the least damage per second, with less than half of what liquid lightning does. So this already indicates a discrepancy between the separate Ground AoEs, so adjusting the value of eruption seems to be a good way to increase the dps of a magicka dragonknight. Ground AoEs are easily avoidable in PvP and therefore do not affect PvP negatively in general.

For blazing spear I added the coefficients of burning light. It can proc once ever 0,5 seconds with a 25% chance, therefore we have an average damage of 0,25*9/8*Base Damage per cast of blazing spear, adding about 500 dps. Now this is just the Base damage, without critical hits and class passives. To facilitate the calculations I assume that passives are pretty balanced between classes in general, or at least do not lead to a significant bias in this testig environment.

Now what I came up with is a measure to calculate the dps you get per point of magicka spent per second within a rotation. It just takes the overall damage per second from above and divides it by the Base cost of magicka per second:
DPS per point of magicka spent=(Overall damage/Duration)/(Cost/Duration)=Overall Damage/Cost
Comparing these variables for the five AoEs leads to:

mKGmUQb.png

Now this assumes that you recast these AoEs only when they are running out. Problem with that is that you recast many of them early to fit their duration to your elemental blockade (there’s another problem: a lot of durations just don’t fit to other dots).
The Abilities you recast early are usually Liquid lightning, Winter’s Revenge and Twisting Path,so changing their durations to 8 seconds leads to:

ZgqwI41.png

Now these values assume that Eruption isn’t bad and Twisting Path and Winter’s Revenge are worse, but the translation into a real DPS parse is that eruption just does a lot less damage per second throughout the fight. It is just fairly cheap for the overall damage it does. But what matters is DPS, and in that regard, eruption is a lot worse than the others even if we adjust their duration to 8 seconds:

xiQLEVQ.png

In a parse, it will do about half of what liquid lightning does. The longer duration of it might be handy from a sustain standpoint, but in comparison to the others, it is still weak. So what I would suggest is that the damage over time component of eruption can be increased by at least 35%, so that it gets magicka dragonknights closer to the other classes ground AoEs. Blazing Spear is actually fine. Winter’s revenge could still use a 20% buff in order to help magicka wardens reach more potential.
The second aspect I wanted to look into are spammable skills. There are some differences, especially regarding the damage of puncturing sweeps and the cost of funnel health that are completely imbalanced. Four classes have a spammable built in, for sorcerers I used force pulse, which is competing with the other four on all classes, so it makes sense to include it anyway.
Using the same formula as above, we get these damage values per cast of the respective spammable skill,

ozKTOXx.png

We can also notice that there is a significant difference in cost between those skills. Especially puncturing sweeps and funnel health stand out.
But how much Base damage per cast do these give you, assuming the same stats as above?

kAj0YDP.png

Even after adding the average damage contribution from burning light to the damage of puncturing sweeps, the damage in a single target environment is very weak when compared to the rest of the Spammables. I understand that the skill has significant cleave damage attached to it, but the cost is unjustified, as it does about 50% less single target damage than the rest while draining a significant amount of Magicka while having a cast time of more than one second. Funnel health hits hard, is really cheap and heals you on top of it.
Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Funnel health is too strong, I think the rest of the Spammables are underwhelming in terms of what they cost. To verify that, I’m going to show the damage per point of magicka spent again:

UZ1CtzL.png

So in order to balance these out, I suggest the following steps:
1. Increase the original damage of puncturing sweeps by 50% and reduce cost by 40%. This skill is melee, misses a lot and doesn’t hit as hard as the others. Reduce the cleave value to 100% from 140% to compensate .
2. Decrease the cost of molten whip by 40% and increase the damage by 20%. It is single target only, melee and doesn’t do significantly more damage than Funnel health.
3. Decrease the cost of screaming Cliffracer to 1891 to match Funnel health. It hits harder but is delayed, is now dodgeable and doesn’t heal you as much.
4. Decrease the cost of force pulse to 2431. This Spammable is probably the strongest due to the range, triple hit, status effect chance and cleave+interrupt it can provide, so it should be the most expensive Spammable.
What will this mean for the Spammables?

EQZiiNs.png

Why should molten whip be the strongest and cheapest spammable? Because it is limited to a single target melee ability that you cannot always cast reliably. Spammables are usually not that dangerous in PvP (now that Cliffracers are avoidable), which is why I think adjusting them this way should lead to a more light-attack oriented combat system in Combination with the current PTS changes. Will it happen, probably not, but I think that zenimax would make a lot of players very, happy by introducing these changes.
Puncturing sweeps misses a lot as it doesn’t have the “on target only”-restriction, so making it cheaper and hit harder should make playing a in melee as magicka templar more forgiving and rewarding.
@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, you might want to shoe this to the combat design team, maybe @Wrobel?

EDIT: also, I know that @Gilliamtherogue suggested something similar on one if his streams...
Edited by Masel on February 12, 2018 12:12AM
PC EU - CP 1100+
Intis Ravelen - Nightblade - Redguard - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
Annisca Micus - Sorcerer - High Elf - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror & Immortal Redeemer
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Pilar Joranil - Dragonknight - High Elf - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror & Gryphon Heart
Adeline Du Mont - Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror
Olivia Thaloran - Nightblade - Dunmer - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Sorcerer - Khajiit - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
Treehugger Joe - Warden - High Elf - Healer & Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror
Stuga Beluga - Templar - Orc - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
Anna Terra - Warden - Redguard - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
Wamasel - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror & Bringer of Light
Nord Warden - Warden - Nord - Tank - Flawless Conqueror
Nick Romancer - Necromancer - Imperial - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror & Extinguisher of Flames
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Meowsel - Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
Scarlet Lux - Templar - Dunmer - Healer DD - Flawless Conqueror
Sneaky Scarlett - Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror
Treehugger Joe - Warden - Khajiit - Healer & Tank - Flawless Conqueror
Rh'anjiit - Necromancer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror

Youtube:
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  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    This makes sense as it provides a fair and balanced relation with AoEs and spammables and their features/damage.

    Though I wonder, molten whip provides passive extra spell damage, though a small amount. I am not a math wiz, but any idea how much that could count for DPS wise. Roughly of course, since bar swaps and all.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    This makes sense as it provides a fair and balanced relation with AoEs and spammables and their features/damage.

    Though I wonder, molten whip provides passive extra spell damage, though a small amount. I am not a math wiz, but any idea how much that could count for DPS wise. Roughly of course, since bar swaps and all.

    101 is not a lot, ofc the values above aren't set in stone. I just wanted to get the idea across because these imbalances just don't make any sense in my opinion, if there's anything in PvP that would speak against it, tell me.

    But other than birdspammers I've never seen any complaints that someone was funneled to death or whipspammed to oblivion...
    Edited by Masel on February 11, 2018 12:42AM
    PC EU - CP 1100+
    Intis Ravelen - Nightblade - Redguard - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Sorcerer - High Elf - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror & Immortal Redeemer
    Shéogórath - Dragonknight - Imperial - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Dragonknight - High Elf - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror & Gryphon Heart
    Adeline Du Mont - Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Olivia Thaloran - Nightblade - Dunmer - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Sorcerer - Khajiit - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Warden - High Elf - Healer & Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Templar - Orc - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Warden - Redguard - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Wamasel - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror & Bringer of Light
    Nord Warden - Warden - Nord - Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Nick Romancer - Necromancer - Imperial - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror & Extinguisher of Flames
    Revive Me Daddy - Necromancer - Breton - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror
    PC NA - leveling CP
    Alicia Thaloran - Dragonknight - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Meowsel - Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Scarlet Lux - Templar - Dunmer - Healer DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Sneaky Scarlett - Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Warden - Khajiit - Healer & Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Rh'anjiit - Necromancer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
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  • Draxys
    Draxys
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    Agree on all accounts. I'd be thrilled to have a useful magicka DK build in pve... mostly so I can stop mulling over the idea of trying to be a completionist on another class.
    2013

    rip decibel
  • Sixty5
    Sixty5
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    I'd point out that you are ignoring a lot of the damage amps that those classes have.

    DragonKnights have amps for enemy fire damage taken and to AOE fire damage, meaning that those base numbers are going to be bumped up for Whip and Ash Cloud. Plus, unlike other classes DK's have access to other damage over time skills, meaning that their AOE skill doesn't need to hit as hard.

    Additionally Sweeps hit the primary damage for 140% increased damage, I can't seem to find any mention of that in your breakdown, so that might be something to consider before suggesting buffs to the base numbers
    Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

    I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
    Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Masel92 wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    This makes sense as it provides a fair and balanced relation with AoEs and spammables and their features/damage.

    Though I wonder, molten whip provides passive extra spell damage, though a small amount. I am not a math wiz, but any idea how much that could count for DPS wise. Roughly of course, since bar swaps and all.

    101 is not a lot, ofc the values above aren't set in stone. I just wanted to get the idea across because these imbalances just don't make any sense in my opinion, if there's anything in PvP that would speak against it, tell me.

    But other than birdspammers I've never seen any complaints that someone was funneled to death or whipspammed to oblivion...

    Since birdspamming will be over next patch, some do want a buff for bird since admittedly it would be quite dodgable. If it is simply just sped up, then in PvP its a worse pulse due to little extra affect, but no change PvE wise, so if it were to happen it would be with the addition of a small affect. That would probably affect something PvE wise.

    That aside, for now everything seems fine on the PvP end. The damage increase won't be massive since these numbers would come from a constant parse on bosses, not players, so not much would change. A small decrease in cost wouldn't affect anything either, since spamming them isn't really a thing as you said, and the bird thread is over. AoEs aren't generally used either.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Sixty5 wrote: »
    I'd point out that you are ignoring a lot of the damage amps that those classes have.

    DragonKnights have amps for enemy fire damage taken and to AOE fire damage, meaning that those base numbers are going to be bumped up for Whip and Ash Cloud. Plus, unlike other classes DK's have access to other damage over time skills, meaning that their AOE skill doesn't need to hit as hard.

    Additionally Sweeps hit the primary damage for 140% increased damage, I can't seem to find any mention of that in your breakdown, so that might be something to consider before suggesting buffs to the base numbers

    Damage amps would have to be factored in, yes. I am not sure if they are or not. As for sweeps, I believe it is counted due to the buff suggestion "Reduce the cleave value to 100% from 140% to compensate."

    DK having one/two extra dots doesn't really matter. Since overall the DPS is lower than other classes. A lot can go into functionality of classes, such as templar, warden and NB having one ST dot and one burst, or sorc having 2 bursts and how comparable they are is rather complex. But what is known is that DK/templar/warden are on the lower end of the DPS spectrum and fixing up the ability types they have in common based on features is a good start.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Minno
    Minno
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    Sixty5 wrote: »
    I'd point out that you are ignoring a lot of the damage amps that those classes have.

    DragonKnights have amps for enemy fire damage taken and to AOE fire damage, meaning that those base numbers are going to be bumped up for Whip and Ash Cloud. Plus, unlike other classes DK's have access to other damage over time skills, meaning that their AOE skill doesn't need to hit as hard.

    Additionally Sweeps hit the primary damage for 140% increased damage, I can't seem to find any mention of that in your breakdown, so that might be something to consider before suggesting buffs to the base numbers

    That and suggesting a Nerf to the 140% to 100% would gimp it further in PvP
  • Draxys
    Draxys
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    Sixty5 wrote: »
    I'd point out that you are ignoring a lot of the damage amps that those classes have.

    DragonKnights have amps for enemy fire damage taken and to AOE fire damage, meaning that those base numbers are going to be bumped up for Whip and Ash Cloud. Plus, unlike other classes DK's have access to other damage over time skills, meaning that their AOE skill doesn't need to hit as hard.

    Additionally Sweeps hit the primary damage for 140% increased damage, I can't seem to find any mention of that in your breakdown, so that might be something to consider before suggesting buffs to the base numbers

    This is kind of a moot point, since every class uses all their passives and all the other classes out dps mag DKs. Not to mention the DK damage modifying passives are woefully underwhelming compared to sorc/NB.
    2013

    rip decibel
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    This overall makes good sense, could potentially solve the issue without creating chaos in PvP.

    That being said DK damage passives are awful, it would be a good idea to look into combustion/world in ruin for potential magDK and stamDK buffs. (before you ask, yes, stamDK dot builds are especially weak in PvP, just goes to show how different PvE and PvP are.)
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on February 11, 2018 3:12AM
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    I'd point out that you are ignoring a lot of the damage amps that those classes have.

    DragonKnights have amps for enemy fire damage taken and to AOE fire damage, meaning that those base numbers are going to be bumped up for Whip and Ash Cloud. Plus, unlike other classes DK's have access to other damage over time skills, meaning that their AOE skill doesn't need to hit as hard.

    Additionally Sweeps hit the primary damage for 140% increased damage, I can't seem to find any mention of that in your breakdown, so that might be something to consider before suggesting buffs to the base numbers

    I said in the OP that I assume that class passives are fairly balanced and that I therefore do not see any bias within that testing.

    As far as I know, sweeps do only hit a secondary target for that 140% damage, at least that's what the tooltip indicates. If it really hits the original target for that damage, the. Ofc, if you're right, then we'd need to re-evaluate the changes. Anyone here can prove that?

    I'll test it myself as soon as possible, but I won't be home until tomorrow morning.
    Edited by Masel on February 11, 2018 6:39AM
    PC EU - CP 1100+
    Intis Ravelen - Nightblade - Redguard - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Sorcerer - High Elf - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror & Immortal Redeemer
    Shéogórath - Dragonknight - Imperial - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Dragonknight - High Elf - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror & Gryphon Heart
    Adeline Du Mont - Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Olivia Thaloran - Nightblade - Dunmer - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Sorcerer - Khajiit - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Warden - High Elf - Healer & Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Templar - Orc - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Warden - Redguard - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Wamasel - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror & Bringer of Light
    Nord Warden - Warden - Nord - Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Nick Romancer - Necromancer - Imperial - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror & Extinguisher of Flames
    Revive Me Daddy - Necromancer - Breton - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror
    PC NA - leveling CP
    Alicia Thaloran - Dragonknight - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Meowsel - Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Scarlet Lux - Templar - Dunmer - Healer DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Sneaky Scarlett - Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Warden - Khajiit - Healer & Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Rh'anjiit - Necromancer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
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  • Banana
    Banana
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    If only zos listenened to the sharp people.
  • rustic_potato
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    Nice write up and analysis. There are a couple of points I would like to suggest for the analysis.

    1) Have you considered the effect of critical strikes in your calculations? Templar and NB get a bonus here even with the same stats and CP setup.

    2) How would the results look if you added targeted dots.
    DK - Engulfing Flames and Burning Embers.
    Templar - Reflective Light and Purifying Light
    NB - Crippling grasp.
    Sorc - Curse.
    Warden - Swarm.

    DK and Templar have access to bonus dots so I'm assuming it would factor into DPS calculations more.

    Also ground dots do play an important role in PVP especially in choke points.
    I play how I want to.


  • rustic_potato
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    Masel92 wrote: »
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    I'd point out that you are ignoring a lot of the damage amps that those classes have.

    DragonKnights have amps for enemy fire damage taken and to AOE fire damage, meaning that those base numbers are going to be bumped up for Whip and Ash Cloud. Plus, unlike other classes DK's have access to other damage over time skills, meaning that their AOE skill doesn't need to hit as hard.

    Additionally Sweeps hit the primary damage for 140% increased damage, I can't seem to find any mention of that in your breakdown, so that might be something to consider before suggesting buffs to the base numbers

    I said in the OP that I assume that class passives are fairly balanced and that I therefore do not see any bias within that testing.

    As far as I know, sweeps do only hit a secondary target for that 140% damage, at least that's what the tooltip indicates. If it really hits the original target for that damage, the. Ofc, if you're right, then we'd need to re-evaluate the changes. Anyone here can prove that?

    I'll test it myself as soon as possible, but I won't be home until tomorrow morning.

    Yeah sweeps does bonus damage to the primary target. Else it would be pretty much close to useless outside of PVP.
    I play how I want to.


  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Masel92 wrote: »
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    I'd point out that you are ignoring a lot of the damage amps that those classes have.

    DragonKnights have amps for enemy fire damage taken and to AOE fire damage, meaning that those base numbers are going to be bumped up for Whip and Ash Cloud. Plus, unlike other classes DK's have access to other damage over time skills, meaning that their AOE skill doesn't need to hit as hard.

    Additionally Sweeps hit the primary damage for 140% increased damage, I can't seem to find any mention of that in your breakdown, so that might be something to consider before suggesting buffs to the base numbers

    I said in the OP that I assume that class passives are fairly balanced and that I therefore do not see any bias within that testing.

    As far as I know, sweeps do only hit a secondary target for that 140% damage, at least that's what the tooltip indicates. If it really hits the original target for that damage, the. Ofc, if you're right, then we'd need to re-evaluate the changes. Anyone here can prove that?

    I'll test it myself as soon as possible, but I won't be home until tomorrow morning.

    Yeah sweeps does bonus damage to the primary target. Else it would be pretty much close to useless outside of PVP.

    Alright fair enough, I'm going to redo the analysis tomorrow. If only you could include proper tables in here...
    PC EU - CP 1100+
    Intis Ravelen - Nightblade - Redguard - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Sorcerer - High Elf - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror & Immortal Redeemer
    Shéogórath - Dragonknight - Imperial - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Dragonknight - High Elf - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror & Gryphon Heart
    Adeline Du Mont - Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Olivia Thaloran - Nightblade - Dunmer - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Sorcerer - Khajiit - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Warden - High Elf - Healer & Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Templar - Orc - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Warden - Redguard - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Wamasel - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror & Bringer of Light
    Nord Warden - Warden - Nord - Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Nick Romancer - Necromancer - Imperial - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror & Extinguisher of Flames
    Revive Me Daddy - Necromancer - Breton - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror
    PC NA - leveling CP
    Alicia Thaloran - Dragonknight - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Meowsel - Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Scarlet Lux - Templar - Dunmer - Healer DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Sneaky Scarlett - Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Warden - Khajiit - Healer & Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Rh'anjiit - Necromancer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • LZH
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    Awesome post.

    Spammables with the exception of funnel are far too expensive.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Sixty5 wrote: »
    I'd point out that you are ignoring a lot of the damage amps that those classes have.

    DragonKnights have amps for enemy fire damage taken and to AOE fire damage, meaning that those base numbers are going to be bumped up for Whip and Ash Cloud. Plus, unlike other classes DK's have access to other damage over time skills, meaning that their AOE skill doesn't need to hit as hard.

    Additionally Sweeps hit the primary damage for 140% increased damage, I can't seem to find any mention of that in your breakdown, so that might be something to consider before suggesting buffs to the base numbers

    Oh btw, I saw that you used the increased number of dots as an argument that eruption doesn't need to hit as hard. The increased number of dots doesn't justify the lower damage, because those dots are melee.

    Melee should reward you with higher dps compared to other classes, which is why the spammable and aoe skills of dragonknights and templars should hit harder than the ones if wardens, nbs and sorcs that can stay fully ranged. Magicka Templars and DKs compete with stamina DDs, and they should be able to reach similar numbers.

    And for the damage amps: sorcs have shock damage amps, nbs and templars have crit damage, wardens have cold damage... Class passives are fine, the screws have to be turned elsewhere...
    Edited by Masel on February 11, 2018 6:17PM
    PC EU - CP 1100+
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  • Make2k15
    Make2k15
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    Masel92 wrote: »
    Oh btw, I saw that you used the increased number of dots as an argument that eruption doesn't need to hit as hard. The increased number of dots doesn't justify the lower damage, because those dots are melee.

    There also the thing that cus eruption's duration is about twice as much compared to the other AOE DOTs you only need to spend half of the time casting it compared to other AOE DOTs which will give you one extra spammer skill cast in 20 sec rotation (= 200-300 dps gain).
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Make2k15 wrote: »
    Masel92 wrote: »
    Oh btw, I saw that you used the increased number of dots as an argument that eruption doesn't need to hit as hard. The increased number of dots doesn't justify the lower damage, because those dots are melee.

    There also the thing that cus eruption's duration is about twice as much compared to the other AOE DOTs you only need to spend half of the time casting it compared to other AOE DOTs which will give you one extra spammer skill cast in 20 sec rotation (= 200-300 dps gain).

    In most trial fights you're going to recast it a lot more because you need to focus on a different target...
    PC EU - CP 1100+
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  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    People who recast their ground AoEs early are lazy and are missing out on A LOT of DPS.
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #MidnightSlayers
    #MoreDPSthanYou #ImmortalRedeemerOnStamblade
    #Stamblade
  • Tannus15
    Tannus15
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    interesting analysis and it certainly highlights some of the differences in the spammables and primary AOE dots. However I can't help but agree with the other posters that it's looking at it in too much isolation.
    We don't play a skill, we play a class.

    Not only is funnel health cheaper, but siphon strikes makes light attack weaving it even better. It's highly encouraged to spam funnel health as much as possible.

    DK's do 40% more damage on heavy attacks, which means they don't want to be light attack weaving a spammable, they want to be heavy attack weaving to take advantage of that, which means they get less from a spammable and more from dots.

    It's kind of like saying a Ferrari is better than a Ford because of the tyres. Sure tyres matter, but there is so much more going on.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Izaki wrote: »
    People who recast their ground AoEs early are lazy and are missing out on A LOT of DPS.

    Well if you tell me a rotation on a magicka warden, magblade or magicka sorcerer that doesn't really cast their ground aoes early I'd be more than happy. Dynamic rotations are impractical and are very hard to get down right. 99% of the playerbase do not use dynamic rotations for that reason.
    PC EU - CP 1100+
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  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Tannus15 wrote: »
    interesting analysis and it certainly highlights some of the differences in the spammables and primary AOE dots. However I can't help but agree with the other posters that it's looking at it in too much isolation.
    We don't play a skill, we play a class.

    Not only is funnel health cheaper, but siphon strikes makes light attack weaving it even better. It's highly encouraged to spam funnel health as much as possible.

    DK's do 40% more damage on heavy attacks, which means they don't want to be light attack weaving a spammable, they want to be heavy attack weaving to take advantage of that, which means they get less from a spammable and more from dots.

    It's kind of like saying a Ferrari is better than a Ford because of the tyres. Sure tyres matter, but there is so much more going on.

    I disagree with the fact that the test is biased and has too many omitted variables. This is core game design, no matter which class you play. Even if you have access to one or two more damage over time abilities, it shouldn't be a reason for some of them to deal less damage despite having the same utility and function. Having another ability to equalise your damage to the one of another class is a disadvantage per se, if the other class can do the same damage with one ability less.

    Dragonknights need more dps as they're forced to melee, as do magplars in. Changing puncturing sweeps, whip and their ground aoes is an easy fix for that without having the PvP-side of the community complaining.

    You said that a DK wants to use heavy attacks, so you kind of missed the point of the whole thread... Decreasing the cost of spammable skills is the only way to get people to use light attack rotations, because it is the only way to have a better investment-return ratio than using heavy attacks.

    Also, to the guys here saying that I should include passives: which ones are imbalanced in your opinion? Why is one class better in passives as another? I don't want any feedback unless it has proof in it, players are claiming things left and right on these forums without delivering any kind of proof for it. That's not a scientific discussion...

    List of passives that influence ground aoe damage:

    Sorc: 5% Shock damage, 2% SD per Sorc ability slotted.

    Warden: 5% Cold Damage, 2% damage done per animal companion ability slotted.

    Templar: 10% critical damage with aedric spear ability slotted, burning light.

    Nightblade: 10% critical damage with assassination ability slotted and 1.5% critical rating for every assassination ability slotted.

    DK: 6% Fire AoE Damage, 50% increased burning damage, 10% engulfing flames.

    When you look at these and apply them to the skills, the dks eruption is still so far behind. In fact, these are all balanced when consider the usual critical rating of at maximum 60% on average. Eruption and engulfing flames combined do the same damage as liquid lightning while forcing you to go in melee range.



    PC EU - CP 1100+
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  • idk
    idk
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    1. the comment that Sorcs have access to a spamable to fill the gaps between dots seems highly irrelevant since it is not a class skill so all classes have access to it. The comment seems to be stated as an exception for them when it is very much the opposite since mNBs and mPlars have class spamables. IDk,

    2. and the main issue is our rotations have had some changes over the past few years and this is due to balance changes. It has never been possible for an MMO to truly balance classes since they cannot foresee what changes we will make in search of the best damage possible, they can only guess.

    Even comparing the costs as is done above does not accurately compare the cost. Each of the skills mentioned behave extremely different. FP is an instant vs Puncturing sweeps is a channeled DoT. Funnel Health does not even behanve like FP and takes longer to execute the skill with weaving in a light attack at the start. Maybe I missed something in this comparison since it did not appear to have calculations to adjust for these differences.

    I am not saying OP is not correct, but something big seems to be missing in the simplification he has presented here as he does admit this is a simplification of what he has been pondering. I do not think it is as simple as OP has presented here.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    idk wrote: »
    1. the comment that Sorcs have access to a spamable to fill the gaps between dots seems highly irrelevant since it is not a class skill so all classes have access to it. The comment seems to be stated as an exception for them when it is very much the opposite since mNBs and mPlars have class spamables. IDk,

    2. and the main issue is our rotations have had some changes over the past few years and this is due to balance changes. It has never been possible for an MMO to truly balance classes since they cannot foresee what changes we will make in search of the best damage possible, they can only guess.

    Even comparing the costs as is done above does not accurately compare the cost. Each of the skills mentioned behave extremely different. FP is an instant vs Puncturing sweeps is a channeled DoT. Funnel Health does not even behanve like FP and takes longer to execute the skill with weaving in a light attack at the start. Maybe I missed something in this comparison since it did not appear to have calculations to adjust for these differences.

    I am not saying OP is not correct, but something big seems to be missing in the simplification he has presented here as he does admit this is a simplification of what he has been pondering. I do not think it is as simple as OP has presented here.
    Of all classes have access to force pulse, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be included as sorcs will use it.

    The instant vs. Channel argument is invalid. You can cast all of them once per second. There is no significant simplification as all of the calculations I presented above translate into dps parses...
    Edited by Masel on February 12, 2018 12:24AM
    PC EU - CP 1100+
    Intis Ravelen - Nightblade - Redguard - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
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    Pilar Joranil - Dragonknight - High Elf - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror & Gryphon Heart
    Adeline Du Mont - Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror
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    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Sorcerer - Khajiit - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Warden - High Elf - Healer & Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Templar - Orc - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Warden - Redguard - Stam DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Wamasel - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror & Bringer of Light
    Nord Warden - Warden - Nord - Tank - Flawless Conqueror
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    Revive Me Daddy - Necromancer - Breton - Mag DD - Flawless Conqueror
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    Meowsel - Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Scarlet Lux - Templar - Dunmer - Healer DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Sneaky Scarlett - Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Warden - Khajiit - Healer & Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Rh'anjiit - Necromancer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror

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  • Tannus15
    Tannus15
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    @Masel92 You're just ignoring too much data to make the comparison easier and it's making it impossible to take your premise at face value.

    Winters revenge has a 30% snare, eruption has a 70% how should that affect the calculations? Winters revenge has a larger AOE and procs chilled, which is almost useless unless you're running an ice staff and are after immobilise.

    for the record, I agree, Eruption clearly needs a buff, there is good value in what you're saying, but isolating the skills too much goes against the spirit of actual balance.

    I feel like force pulse should be the "benchmark" against all other spammables should be measured since every class can access it.

    flame whip shouldn't be compared to funnel health, it should be compared to force pulse, and compared to force pulse it hits harder and costs less and buffs other ardent flame skills. Should it be buffed? probably, but comparing it to funnel health seems wrong to me.

    funnel health hits the same, costs significantly less and heals you. I'd say funnel health needs a nerf. It's better in every way to force pulse. Going by your numbers i'd increase the cost of funnel health to probably 2500 magicka. maybe even 2700 for parity with force pulse. If you think funnel health is fine, then force pulse is too expensive.

    And this is why you don't look at things in isolation. you're only telling half the story and ignoring how these skills interact with the rest of the class mechanics.
  • rustic_potato
    rustic_potato
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    Tannus15 wrote: »
    @Masel92 You're just ignoring too much data to make the comparison easier and it's making it impossible to take your premise at face value.

    Winters revenge has a 30% snare, eruption has a 70% how should that affect the calculations? Winters revenge has a larger AOE and procs chilled, which is almost useless unless you're running an ice staff and are after immobilise.

    for the record, I agree, Eruption clearly needs a buff, there is good value in what you're saying, but isolating the skills too much goes against the spirit of actual balance.

    I feel like force pulse should be the "benchmark" against all other spammables should be measured since every class can access it.

    flame whip shouldn't be compared to funnel health, it should be compared to force pulse, and compared to force pulse it hits harder and costs less and buffs other ardent flame skills. Should it be buffed? probably, but comparing it to funnel health seems wrong to me.

    funnel health hits the same, costs significantly less and heals you. I'd say funnel health needs a nerf. It's better in every way to force pulse. Going by your numbers i'd increase the cost of funnel health to probably 2500 magicka. maybe even 2700 for parity with force pulse. If you think funnel health is fine, then force pulse is too expensive.

    And this is why you don't look at things in isolation. you're only telling half the story and ignoring how these skills interact with the rest of the class mechanics.

    To accurately predict the viability of each class the simulation that needs to be run is going to be a bit more complex. Asayre did it for a magsorc last year. The data and the code is available to public if you want to run it.

    That being said I understand the reasoning behind OP's post. "Ground dots + spammable should give a certain amount of sustained DPS for each class". I don't agree with it but I can see how it could be used to make the game's DPS floor higher.
    I play how I want to.


  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    Any update to this @Masel92 ?
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    Even though this post is old as dirt, I think it's relevant.

    While I don't think just buffing the numbers is the way to go for Eruption (I'm in favor of group dynamics for Mag DK), adding a synergy to the effect would be awesome. Here are some spitballed ideas.

    "Spontaneous Combustion": Burning Enemies explode for damage in an 8m radius based on the duration of Ash Cloud.
    "Pyroclastic Flow": Prematurely ends Ash Cloud to do double it's remaining damage in a 10m radius burst.
    "Red Mountain": All friendly targets in a 10m radius have fire damage increased by 200 sp dmg amongst them.
    "Convection": Targets afflicted by the chilled status take 10% increased damage for 5 seconds.
    0331
    0602
  • Solinur
    Solinur
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    I did something similar for the skills available for my magplar with a bit of a different context though (See here). I get quite different results for Force Pulse and Puncturing Sweeps. For me the latter does more DPS and costs less per second.
    Some Points I noticed:
    • Where did you take the Coefficients from? They seem totally different to what I used (http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoSkills)
    • Did you use a coefficient for Burning Light?
    • Did you consider the 200ms animation lock after channeled / cast time skills which effectively increases the duration by 200ms (to 1.3s in case of Puncturing Sweeps)
    @Solinur Pact EU - PC (Solinur: Templar - Magicka DD, Moves-like-Günther: Sorcerer - Stamina DD, Kinara Sol: Templar - Stamina DD, )
    Addon Author
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