How to counter DKs

ak_pvp · September 2018

Unfortunately this seems more of a complain post than an actual question. But I'll answer it either way.

Yes, DK wings heavily counters sorc since most of the burst is centered around frags. But wings is only really good vs a very very limited amount of attacks, every melee class completely ignores it, and a large chunk of ranged skills too. So wings has to be strong in certain areas or why run it. [Note: I hate this design, wings is infuriating to use vs 90% of cyro, it ends up being just a 3.7k cost 2s removal.]

The "counter" to a DK who doesn't want to die with wings is to not die back. Use harness to negate all of a MagDK (I presume this is your issue, stamDK wings less) skills for free, since harness returns mag. Use mines to slow them. Streak away if they don't use chains. You simply won't die to a DK if you are equal and don't want to. Even if they get you low, shields will protect you equally as good, since DK has no execute.

If you absolutely want to kill the DK, then you can use a petsorc with WoE+pulse and the like. Yes, its not very viable for OW, but then neither is wings due to how easily 2 people can drop it.

Olupajmibanan · September 2018

Play in non-CP environment. That cripples DKs much more than Sorcs.

Carbonised · September 2018

Don't know whether to laugh or comment in this thread. Frags is literally the only reflectable skill in a non-overload magsorc's toolkit.

If you keep hard casting frags onto a dk who uses wings, then you really have no business coming here on the forums with that type of QQ.

It's like people just expect DKs to lie down on their belly and serve them free AP, and they get hysterical every time a DK actually defends themself by daring to block or having the audacity of using wings once in a while.

FloppyTouch · September 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

Don't know whether to laugh or comment in this thread. Frags is literally the only reflectable skill in a non-overload magsorc's toolkit.

If you keep hard casting frags onto a dk who uses wings, then you really have no business coming here on the forums with that type of QQ.

It's like people just expect DKs to lie down on their belly and serve them free AP, and they get hysterical every time a DK actually defends themself by daring to block or having the audacity of using wings once in a while.

People got too use to dks being trash for so long it's now weird that they can hold their own. If sorcs are not over the top OP then every sorc user feels they are weak.

Sav72 · September 2018

Out smart them,
As a NB, I mark them, and pull them to realm mates.

RIP OP DK

Koensol · September 2018

Wings is just extremely broken against any projectile based build in a 1v1 or in small scale battles like BG's. Ranged magblade has it the worst, followed by magsorc. I find it really bad design when as a magblade the only thing I can do against a magdk of similar skill level, is to run away. There is no class in the game that is as hard countered by 1 single skill. You can try removing wing stacks with resto light attacks, but it is pointless, because they will just reapply it the moment you switch to front bar. You have zero chance of applying any counter pressure, which ends up with you just realizing it is better to just leave. Magdk's start suffering more in the open world, where they are not as mobile as other classes and get easily caught by zergs. In 1v1 and BG they are pure cheese though.

Moonsorrow · September 2018

Koensol wrote: »

Wings is just extremely broken against any projectile based build in a 1v1 or in small scale battles like BG's. Ranged magblade has it the worst, followed by magsorc. I find it really bad design when as a magblade the only thing I can do against a magdk of similar skill level, is to run away. There is no class in the game that is as hard countered by 1 single skill. You can try removing wing stacks with resto light attacks, but it is pointless, because they will just reapply it the moment you switch to front bar. You have zero chance of applying any counter pressure, which ends up with you just realizing it is better to just leave. Magdk's start suffering more in the open world, where they are not as mobile as other classes and get easily caught by zergs. In 1v1 and BG they are pure cheese though.

So if there was not that "hard counter" against a ranged magblade then why all would not play a ranged magblade? Why people always want all counters against them gone and how all of those are always "cheese"? So a ranged magblade has no skills and setups that you think are no cheese? Imagine what other classes think about ranged magblade if you want a reality check haha. I play all classes equally, but since you think Wings are cheese, i`d trade my Wings to your Cloak. Deal?

Koensol · September 2018

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Wings is just extremely broken against any projectile based build in a 1v1 or in small scale battles like BG's. Ranged magblade has it the worst, followed by magsorc. I find it really bad design when as a magblade the only thing I can do against a magdk of similar skill level, is to run away. There is no class in the game that is as hard countered by 1 single skill. You can try removing wing stacks with resto light attacks, but it is pointless, because they will just reapply it the moment you switch to front bar. You have zero chance of applying any counter pressure, which ends up with you just realizing it is better to just leave. Magdk's start suffering more in the open world, where they are not as mobile as other classes and get easily caught by zergs. In 1v1 and BG they are pure cheese though.

So if there was not that "hard counter" against a ranged magblade then why all would not play a ranged magblade? Why people always want all counters against them gone and how all of those are always "cheese"? So a ranged magblade has no skills and setups that you think are no cheese? Imagine what other classes think about ranged magblade if you want a reality check haha. I play all classes equally, but since you think Wings are cheese, i`d trade my Wings to your Cloak. Deal?

Way to pull my post out of context, jesus. Not even gonna reply to this bunch of hyperbole.

Exalted_Goose · September 2018

I used to have a huge problem with mDKs in particular in PvP, (especially duelling), so I get where you're coming from; firstly, lots of good advice in this thread thus far, definitely good stuff from the DK players, so I'm just gonna chip in from the perspective of an mSorc. Remember that PvP is all about burst - the game isn't a sustain-based slug any more, it's all about stacking combos for massive burst damage - and mSorc has access to some of the best raw burst potential in the game. While Wings will reflect your C-Frag, which is albeit a large component of that, in my experience eventually most DKs will slip and either run out of resources so as not to afford the relatively high cost of the ability, or just forget to apply it. Watch them closely and time your Curse --> C-Frag Proc --> Rune combo at a time that coincides with Wings going down. Equally, slotting Meteor, (/Morphs), in with this burst will help even more.

Also, from what I understand much of an mDK's heals come from close-range abilities such as Burning Embers, Flame Lash, etc., and the class is fairly immobile. From my experience, Chains doesn't appear too frequently amongst PvP DKs, and one of the greatest advantages enjoyed by an mSorc is how it excels at high burst at range. Use this to your advantage - once you get good with movement and positioning, you'll be running rings around them. In the event that they get close, sure... mDK in particular is a strong counter to mSorc, (particularly if you're a Vampire), but Harness Magicka, Immovability Pots; Streak; building for a high Stamina pool... all work well.

Above all, take each death to a DK in your stride - look at what they did, look at what you did, think about what could have happened that would've changed the outcome and adjust accordingly. Scrutinise how you play, and when you die look for faults in how you handled stuff - otherwise, you risk becoming complacent and just blaming everything on a specific class/set/skill, which will NOT improve your game. And remember that PvP is a long haul, it takes thousands of hours' worth of experience and practice to get somewhere, so go in with a good mindset that'll help you to achieve that goal sooner.

Moonsorrow · September 2018

Koensol wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Wings is just extremely broken against any projectile based build in a 1v1 or in small scale battles like BG's. Ranged magblade has it the worst, followed by magsorc. I find it really bad design when as a magblade the only thing I can do against a magdk of similar skill level, is to run away. There is no class in the game that is as hard countered by 1 single skill. You can try removing wing stacks with resto light attacks, but it is pointless, because they will just reapply it the moment you switch to front bar. You have zero chance of applying any counter pressure, which ends up with you just realizing it is better to just leave. Magdk's start suffering more in the open world, where they are not as mobile as other classes and get easily caught by zergs. In 1v1 and BG they are pure cheese though.

So if there was not that "hard counter" against a ranged magblade then why all would not play a ranged magblade? Why people always want all counters against them gone and how all of those are always "cheese"? So a ranged magblade has no skills and setups that you think are no cheese? Imagine what other classes think about ranged magblade if you want a reality check haha. I play all classes equally, but since you think Wings are cheese, i`d trade my Wings to your Cloak. Deal?

Way to pull my post out of context, jesus. Not even gonna reply to this bunch of hyperbole.

Because you cannot answer when you realized how your bias is over 9000 and there is no logical comeback that does not make you seem even more so?

ANY class with both defensive and offensive class defining skill like Cloak for example should not complain about another classes similar skill is all i am saying. If you think about it you might agree to it, unless the bias is too strong and you are one of those "my class should win against all without compromises on my setup" -people? Hard counters should exist. Rock, paper and scissors is good for the game imo.

Edited for clarity.

Koensol · September 2018

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Wings is just extremely broken against any projectile based build in a 1v1 or in small scale battles like BG's. Ranged magblade has it the worst, followed by magsorc. I find it really bad design when as a magblade the only thing I can do against a magdk of similar skill level, is to run away. There is no class in the game that is as hard countered by 1 single skill. You can try removing wing stacks with resto light attacks, but it is pointless, because they will just reapply it the moment you switch to front bar. You have zero chance of applying any counter pressure, which ends up with you just realizing it is better to just leave. Magdk's start suffering more in the open world, where they are not as mobile as other classes and get easily caught by zergs. In 1v1 and BG they are pure cheese though.

So if there was not that "hard counter" against a ranged magblade then why all would not play a ranged magblade? Why people always want all counters against them gone and how all of those are always "cheese"? So a ranged magblade has no skills and setups that you think are no cheese? Imagine what other classes think about ranged magblade if you want a reality check haha. I play all classes equally, but since you think Wings are cheese, i`d trade my Wings to your Cloak. Deal?

Way to pull my post out of context, jesus. Not even gonna reply to this bunch of hyperbole.

*Snipped to remove baseless assumptions about me and my opinion.*

Edited for clarity.

The only thing that is clear about your post is that you are unable to have a normal discussion without assuming a hundred things and more. Maybe respond to my post with actual substance in stead of crap like "ermagerrrd you want to have all counters removed y u so biased".

Moonsorrow · September 2018

Koensol wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Wings is just extremely broken against any projectile based build in a 1v1 or in small scale battles like BG's. Ranged magblade has it the worst, followed by magsorc. I find it really bad design when as a magblade the only thing I can do against a magdk of similar skill level, is to run away. There is no class in the game that is as hard countered by 1 single skill. You can try removing wing stacks with resto light attacks, but it is pointless, because they will just reapply it the moment you switch to front bar. You have zero chance of applying any counter pressure, which ends up with you just realizing it is better to just leave. Magdk's start suffering more in the open world, where they are not as mobile as other classes and get easily caught by zergs. In 1v1 and BG they are pure cheese though.

So if there was not that "hard counter" against a ranged magblade then why all would not play a ranged magblade? Why people always want all counters against them gone and how all of those are always "cheese"? So a ranged magblade has no skills and setups that you think are no cheese? Imagine what other classes think about ranged magblade if you want a reality check haha. I play all classes equally, but since you think Wings are cheese, i`d trade my Wings to your Cloak. Deal?

Way to pull my post out of context, jesus. Not even gonna reply to this bunch of hyperbole.

*Snipped to remove baseless assumptions about me and my opinion.*

Edited for clarity.

The only thing that is clear about your post is that you are unable to have a normal discussion without assuming a hundred things and more. Maybe respond to my post with actual substance in stead of crap like "ermagerrrd you want to have all counters removed y u so biased".

Was expecting something like that. But a normal discussion for you i guess is that people have to agree with you or its "ermagerrrd" for you? Op was asking how to counter DKs and your answer to him was that Wings and DK in general is cheese? So my answer to you was pretty much that then all classes are cheese since they all have a skill or more that other classes see as a "cheese" thus making your answer deserve my answer. Thats all, have a nice day though!

Answer to OP have already been given several times so no need for me to go there. Just had to answer to you since all classes got cheese and makes me do /rolleyes when see people saying one specific class is cheese for whatever reason this time lol.

RobZha · September 2018

coppersly wrote: »

I figured this was the answer. It seems they were built soley for PvP anti-range/mage. Feels like the go to class if you want to be a king in PvP without trying

Yeah....I've seen more or less the exact same thing said about sorcs too. And I feel sorry for what you're gonna be like when you try beating good nightblades.

I'm not getting a dig in on sorcs there either (sorc is the original class I started with and I still like them, even if I rarely play them in pvp any more.) I'm just trying to say that saying things like that doesn't help.

What you might find is that you'll see good players on several classes that you just can't kill eventually, they're just good at what they do. But if you find a class unkillable in general you'll eventually work out ways to get past that as you try different things out.

If you try making a dk and get wrecked by some sorcs/nightblades, etc, you'd see what I mean. Stam dk's actually have problems, as they have very few class abilities they can even use without quickly running out of magicka because hardly any of them can be turned into stam-based.

Casting wings alone uses up 3.5k+ of the small amount of magicka they have and if they're used for removing snares they only get 2 seconds of immunity, which could actually be buffed so that it increases 1 second per rank and makes things less difficult at times when playing one. I'm levelling one now and also have to slot forward momentum for snare immunity in pvp, which means that I can't use rally and have less healing options without having to use magicka for that too.

Stonefist could do with a stam morph to help with that, but nope we don't have that either, so have to use another load of magicka to cast that too. 4k magicka per-cast if using the heal morph, after using a few times you can end up with no magicka left basically.

If you played one you'd soon see the problems they can run into. Especially Mag dk vs bleed/DoT builds in no-cp.

JamieAubrey · September 2018

AT this point I avoid DKs as I know I can't beat them, I don't even try

RobZha · September 2018

I find threads like this a bit mad to be honest (with no offence to thread starter, I've been there myself in the past with one or more classes), as I'm currently starting to play in vivec a lot more after running into so many problems playing dk's in no-cp. I'm not a great player and accept that, but would rather get rekt more often in cp at times and have more options with the cp than deal with the problems I often face in no-cp at the moment.

So seeing these threads is a bit bizarre really, but I guess that's the nature of this place at times. So many of the threads seem to be about arguing over classes when the real issues might be more about lack of diversity in builds due to limited options and the general problems that pvp itself faces with lag and bugs that rarely even get an attempted fix. I keep checking patch notes to see if they've sorted anything out, but very rarely see anything done.

Have upgraded ram from 8gb to 16 and yes it helps at times, but there's still a lot of issues that occur and that need to be worked on to make pvp less frustrating. People talking about them more on here instead of arguing about classes might go a bit towards that being seen as more of a priority.

Priyasekarssk · September 2018

coppersly wrote: »

I'm having an incredibly hard time countering Dragon Knights in PvP. Mostly due to their insane self sustain healing, damage dealing, and immunity to projectiles/immobilzations. They constantly have reflect up half of my attacks are completely worthless agaisnt them, and my CC abilities only work once before they roll to gain dodge AND CC immunity. At that point only lightning heavy attacks and wall of elements are able to damage them.

How do I even begin to damage and counter them without reworking all of my spells to deal with a single class/target.

Waiting for more DKs to come with L2P issues vomitting some nonsense.

My advise is avoid fighting DKs with underpowered classes. You cannot beat any competent DK , no matter how hard you try. Instead make a DK. DK & NBs will get huge buffs in future. Class representatives & ZOs are in process of buffing DKs & NBs whichever way possible. I am not sure either ZOs is biased or class representatives. Many class representatives way they comment looks they are completely biased. They always say DK & NB are underpowered and needs more buffs. Just check their comments in recent times.

Many mage set ups are already dead. You will really look embrassed when complain in forums.

Aedaryl · September 2018

The_Camper wrote: »

coppersly wrote: »

I figured this was the answer. It seems they were built soley for PvP anti-range/mage. Feels like the go to class if you want to be a king in PvP without trying

You spelled nightblade wrong.

it seems like you have a lot to learn iv pvp so I'll just list a number of abilities that you can specifically use against dk wings.

Curse
Force shock (a main spammable that you can use)
mages wrath
lightning heavy attacks
meteor ult.

not that hard to learn to play now is it?

If you think spamming force pulse VS with curse is going to kill a good DK, then you lack of knowledge and experiance.

Also, you seems to forget that master Flame Reach is better to use for Sorc, so force pulse, not by just being not enough, is also not used.

A proper sDK build can easely have 4k+ HPS and you will not out damage it, especially without being able to deal damage for 2s to 4s

Msorc already struggle alot with High mitigation High healing tanky damage build, because of the lack of pressure. Now remove LA and/or spammable pressure and there is simply no way to kill a DK. In opposite, as a shieldstacking you can turle up until the DK give up, you can try to streak away if it's a magDK without gap closer. If it's a stam DK, he will chase and outrun you because that's how sorc is balanced...

You can use a dueling pet build, it will work.

Hurtfan · September 2018

Only thing I can pitch in is spam liquid lightning, they can't block it. But still very hard to take down a good DK with a magsorc.

Savos_Saren · September 2018

coppersly wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Did I miss what class you are?

I forgot to add it in and could not find an edit button. I'm playing magsorc but really this problem is on any class that isn't melee focused.

Solariken wrote: »

You either have to use a build without projectiles or just run away from good Dk players. Wings are a complete hard counter 1v1 to many builds and a soft counter to vampires. It sucks but we just play the hand we're dealt.

I figured this was the answer. It seems they were built soley for PvP anti-range/mage. Feels like the go to class if you want to be a king in PvP without trying

So let me get this straight: DKs have the ability to reflect your projectiles (not beams, ultimates, not haunting curse, not rune cage, not even your execute.. or your secondary execute) and you think they're gods in PVP?

So you want to be able to pew-pew from a distance without any repercussions or counterplay?

Also, to answer your question: the easies way to rend an mDK useless is to pop him with a negate. Then, he won't be able to use wings or ANY of his magic abilities. Negate also happens to be the one ability in the game that completely moots every other ground-based ultimate. Our Standard? Gone. Nova? Gone. Hell, a DK can't even use Ferocious Leap or Chains or Accelerate to get out of it.

...so you're just complaining that your specific playstyle is bad and that you don't want to L2P.

coppersly · September 2018

Yall this was a legit thread about dealing with DKs as a projectile mage. All I got from this thread was
1.) Terrible community. Faster to insult than to help by miles
2.) L2P around their one skill. I don't want to completely change my bars just to deal with one class but apparently that's the accepted norm

Carbonised · September 2018

coppersly wrote: »

2.) L2P around their one skill. I don't want to completely change my bars just to deal with one class but apparently that's the accepted norm

What part of "wings do not reflect any sorc skills apart from frags" did you struggle to understand?

NBrookus · September 2018

Some people approach sorc thinking they will be a ranged glass cannon damage dealer and that means they should never be at risk. Dodge, reflects and gap closers counter that, otherwise every matchup melee versus sorc would end up with the sorc using the other player as a target dummy.

Sorc has both a ranged stun and ranged root in their class toolkit, mines and atro they can use for LoS, plus a melee stun. Use 'em.

NinchiTV · September 2018

If we're talking magsorc v dk, boundless having constant dmg on them is good, along with curse applied at all times, shields never going down and using the atro to your advantage.sometimes you can get a force pulse in which goes through their wings but ya its a hard fight since frag and flame reach just gets sent back.

Ragnarock41 · September 2018

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I like how every nerf Dk thread has some guy that can't even tell magDk from stam..

I think I fought you a few times in BG's. That actually helped me play my DK better when I saw how you set up for a burst.

Was it recent? I haven't got much time to play anything in the last two weeks , so if that is the case its probably someone else.

FreshlyB8ked · September 2018

coppersly wrote: »

Yall this was a legit thread about dealing with DKs as a projectile mage. All I got from this thread was
1.) Terrible community. Faster to insult than to help by miles
2.) L2P around their one skill. I don't want to completely change my bars just to deal with one class but apparently that's the accepted norm

That's just straight up BS. In your second comment you decided to insult the whole player base that plays DK's in pvp as just wanting to be a king without even trying. So you have only yourself to blame for some of these comments.

JiKama · September 2018

I think Templars do very well against DK's. Templars have cleanse to remove all of their Dots. So all that you have to do is survive their burst and burn up their resources.

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO · September 2018

What always gets me is distance (I don't use swift, as those slots are better spent on damage for my playstyle) and NB cloak (I don't use volatile armor because I run a gap closer instead). If you can put distance between a DK and yourself, you'll start the fight with an advantage, because we have to be in melee range to do literally anything (besides resto heavys, entropy, and crossing our fingers that Skoria procs). So if you have force pulse (and I know you do), you'll start out on better footing than we will. Every time. If you have curse (I know you do), then you're setting up burst that you can combine with mage's wrath, and mines are your friend (again, due to poor DK mobility). Honestly, sorc has a lot of ways to handle a DK who keeps wings up, the only skills wings is prohibitive against for a magsorc are frags, clench, light attacks, and overload. If you rely on those skills alone, then you really just have a L2P issue.

Also, magsorc has streak, which is a very strong escape/repositioning tool, as well as a hard stun. Your main goal is to stay at least 7 meters away, because if we can hit you with a fossilize, you're going to have a bad time. On the other side of that, assuming you have decent stamina management, you'll probably survive because DK has poor burst and no execute, so once your break free and roll out, it's just shields and streak, and then the ball is in your court.

A good DK is a challenge to fight, as is a good magsorc. If you are really having problems, then you need to diversify your build and/or technique. That's what we all have to do in PvP.

Tirps · September 2018

Yes, my poor ranged magicka nightblade would also like to know how to kill DKs, at least you can spam crushing, rune and curse on sorc

JumpmanLane · September 2018

I run a MagDk. StamDK’s are easy. Just dodge the inevitable dizzing swing and keep your buffs up. They can be tanky but they die.

Most of all my friends run MagDk’s and we duel a lot. When I realize I’m 1v1ing a MagDk that starts to LOS I groan inside... I know it’s gonna be a while.

And THIS is the kicker. The last time I fought a MagDk...The whole time we were fighting we were trying to do the same things to each other lol. Talons, whip, fossilize, powerlash, embers, Leap. Ugh.

After about 10 minutes of this nonsense, both of us standing in talons whipping each other, we BOTH sheathed our weapons and bid each other a fond adieu lol.

fred4 · September 2018

coppersly wrote: »

2.) L2P around their one skill. I don't want to completely change my bars just to deal with one class but apparently that's the accepted norm

Well, there's a bit of a conundrum. You don't say you can't adapt, but you don't want to. What are we to make of this? You want everything easy? Sounds a bit lazy to me. It also seems like hyperbole, since you really only need to find a replacement for Frags, and maybe Flame Reach, if you're using that.

Seriously, though, what you are up against is rock, paper, scissors. Certain class / build matchups will typically only go one way, whether that is tilted in one players favour, or whether it's always a likely draw. This is a general flaw with the game, if you want to call it that. It comes, partly, from ZOS piling patch after patch on top of each other. It's not unique to your class or your build. If I was cynical, I'd say ZOS engineered it that way to keep people on the build-making merry-go-round, but the reality is probably more haphazard than that.

What gets me about this thread is that this example is by far NOT the most egregious of this happening. In fact, ZOS made an effort to nerf wings specifically to help sorcs, who are the primary users of Force Shock. The class that's truly screwed against flappy DKs is ranged magblade. At least I take it you are able to survive or streak away? I ask again, what more do you want? Targets that are not worth engaging ARE a valid part of the game, be they outright tanks, healers, or your nemesis build.

There are just so much worse things to complain about. If, for example, you complained about Shield Breaker + Infused Oblivion enchant + (maybe) Torug's Pact, I could understand that. I did the math on that. The damage is so high, it is not possible to outheal over time. You need a burst heal that's not Healing Ward. Again, if you get marked as an NB, you are screwed worse than a sorc. Your escape mechanic is broken, unless you had a shade up, whereas a sorc can always streak away.

I don't play sorc. I play magblade. Like you, I wanted a build that wasn't limited to fighting only certain classes. I eventually settled on a resto / 2H build with Forward Momentum and mixed ranged + melee capabilities. I really did have to change my build totally. Is it the best duelling build? Nope. But it's versatile. It's a total compromise. As a sorc you have an excellent ranged CC and tons of non-reflectable ranged abilities. You don't even have the problems that magblades are having. Perhaps that's just as well, since sorcs tend to be so married to the destro staff, but look, that actually shows some consideration given to sorcs, by ZOS.