A way to make the PVE portion of Cyrodiil more bearable without impacting PVP too much

Crafts_Many_Boxes · September 2018

PVE Players: it's not fair that we have to do pvp content to get our pve content completed

PVP Players: it's not fair that we have to do pve content to be BiS for our pvp content

There's no perfect answer, but my take on the whole thing is that MMO pvp is inherently flawed. Any game with versus play where person A can have 150% of the stats of person B at the same level in the same battleground / warfront / war / whatever is stupid. Period. This game actually isn't SO bad because gear is horizontal and not vertical, but there's still a lot of variance between green and gold gear.

With that in mind, the above arguments are vastly different. In PVE content, there are ways to "cheese" content, like having 3 tanks and healer to pretty much guarantee a clear albeit in 3 hours, or any number of other methods to ensure that you get the gear. But if bobby ganks-a-lot is camping billy mcqusterton as he's trying to finish the IC line or collect skyshards, he's got no choice but to come back later.

That's the critical difference: PvP is against players, who are inherently more frustrating, resourceful, and unpredictable opponents. I'm not saying PvP is harder than PvE, but you can actually prepare / practice / train for PvE content, while that is far more difficult for PvP. As many have pointed out, it's about reaction time and running with big groups and just flat-out getting lucky. There's very little "getting lucky" when it comes to fighting a boss. He doesn't decide to not gank you in that delve.

What I'm trying to say is that PvE players DO have a harder time going to Cyrodil and trying to get all their content done than PvPers jumping into dungeons. Not because PvP is harder, but because it is far easier for a PvPer to jump into PvE content than vice-versa.

Hurtfan · September 2018

Maryal wrote: »

Hurtfan wrote: »

The people I PvP with aren't interested in trolling people doing the quests. They're more worried about getting AP and wining the campaign. And I feel the majority of regular PvPers are this way as well. Never once have I joined a group and their goal was to kill questers.

I can only conclude that when PvEers do get ganked doing quests, those situations are few and far between. Unless you're questing in an area that's hot with fighting.

If you get killed, just respawn and go at it again, you will get the quest completed, not a big deal whatsoever.

Quest ganking goes on in spurts, sometimes it's really bad for several weeks, and sometimes it's sparse. When you are trying to do the quests in Cyrodiil and have to deal with quest gankers, respawning and going at it again changes nothing. Quest ganking can be pretty ferocious. Gankers will hide and wait for an unsuspecting pve'er to start talking to an npc quest giver ... as soon as that happens you get ganked. So, after 3 or 4 attempts of (unsuccessfully) trying to get (or turn-in) your quest, you give up for the day and try the next day, but same thing happens, and it happens the day after that, and the week after that. Maybe, if you wait 6 weeks or so you might be able to get (or turn-in) your pve quests without getting ganked during a 'ganking lull' ... but those 'lulls' are only temporary.

Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen or that it's not a very real problem and it IS a big deal, it's a very big deal.

I do PvP quests as well and haven't missed a day of PvPing for a long time. I'll go with my experience.

scipionumatia · September 2018

a non pvp instance of cyrodiil would be interesting, I would expect it to be set 'post-war' so all daedra gone, towns being rebuilt and expanded, imperial city being repaired.

For this instance of cyrodiil there should be no que, just open zone full of quests and have its own pve story mode. maybe something where you work behind the scenes to push you alliances agenda even though the war has come to an end. Would be cool to have a new trial, or maybe 3- one for each alliance.

all that said I don't think we should have the same pvp skyshards available in the pve version, im sorry but in my mind if you want to obtain the pvp skyshards you need to take the risk of venturing into the pvp zone. The pve version could have its own skyshards but I don't think they should be the same.

It wouldn't be lore breaking, its pretty well accepted that the alliance war zone is 'locked in time', otherwise pvp would of been over a long time ago spare BGS.

jhall03 · September 2018

I’d be fine with this if there were PVE intermissions where all dungeon bosses sat in one place and did not fight back so that people that don’t enjoy dungeons can still get their achievements and gear. Deal?

JumpmanLane · September 2018

Bruccius wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

_Salty_ wrote: »

As a primarily PvP player id like Zos to allow a Dungeon intermission where I just get what I want at ease. Im tired of running Blackheart Haven for weeks trying to get a Bone Pirate 2h sword. I should just be able get what I want and ignore game design.

On a serious note I yearn for the day that Pvers stop complaining about having to PvP in Cyrodiil.

Why are you so bothered by PvE players wanting to PvE in a zone also designed for PvE? Are you one of those gankers who takes out PvE players?

Face it, there is no justified reason for you PvP players to complain about a seperate PvE suggestion.

I PvE in Vivec Lol. I do quests there. I even FARM there. I ALSO kill players and took the time to learn to do so. I entered Vivec at level 10.

There are plenty of places to ONLY PvE if you want to. ZOS wants you to play their WHOLE game so there are inventives for people to do both PvE and PvP.

You should really just l2p or l2pvp because once you do, PvEing in Cyrodiil won’t really be an issue.

Everyone dies. Everyone gets ganked. Everyone gets Zerged down. But once you l2p you’ll KILL those pesky nighblades. You’ll wreck Zergs. You won’t think to much of it.

ESO is a good game. Don’t shy away from a challenge. Step up and kill some people WHILE doing some quests.

This is the toxic behavior of PvP players. ''Everyone must do PvP!''

Gods above, you clearly have no clue how to handle

VaranisArano wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

_Salty_ wrote: »

As a primarily PvP player id like Zos to allow a Dungeon intermission where I just get what I want at ease. Im tired of running Blackheart Haven for weeks trying to get a Bone Pirate 2h sword. I should just be able get what I want and ignore game design.

On a serious note I yearn for the day that Pvers stop complaining about having to PvP in Cyrodiil.

Why are you so bothered by PvE players wanting to PvE in a zone also designed for PvE? Are you one of those gankers who takes out PvE players?

Face it, there is no justified reason for you PvP players to complain about a seperate PvE suggestion.

No justified reason, hmmm? (I can't believe this necro'd thread is going strong)

Like it or not, ZOS balances PVP and PVE together. That means the whole player base benefits when players understand how both PVE and PVP work. The only way to make that happen is to force PVP players into PVE and PVE players into PVP.

And that's why ZOS designed PVP and PVE content so that everyone has to deal everything if they want all the rewards and the best gear. Removing the incentives for PVEers to go into PVP and at the very least get their toes wet for anniversary boxes, AP, tel var, caltrops, vigor, warhorn, etc. (Or allowing PVP players to skip undaunted, get dungeon gear, etc) means that players struggle when ZOS makes balance changes due to either PVP, PVE, or both. Instead, ZOS works hard to give players reasons to try out different playstyles and parts of the game.

We see the proof of this in the class representatice program, where the
representatives were chosen for expertise in both PVP and PVE.

So if you want a justified reason, maybe consider what benefit ZOS gets from the status quo and indeed from designing this game this way in the first place.

Mind you, this dastardly scheme of ZOS to get PVE players into PVP works in some cases. I used to be a PVE only player. I hated the idea of PVP, but I wanted those Master Angler fish. That's what got me started and now I PVP regularly.

Balances, eh? Tell me, what exactly is balanced about fishing and suddenly getting ganked? PvE players play PvE for a reason, as a prime example, Runescape did an excellent job of seperating this. It has (or had) seperate PvP servers, and it had the wilderness, a PvP zone. Mixing PvE and PvP always ends up with PvP players getting the better side of the bargain.

Oh, you almost killed this world boss? Well, too bad, because xXIganknoobsXx saw you lose quite a lot of health and decided to kill you just as you were about to kill the boss.

IC got completely ruined by the PvP/PvE mixed zone, it's a dead area because neither side can get any positives. The ones who want to beat the bosses get screwed over by PvP players, while there are too many PvE enemies for PvP players to really get into their element. Leaving both sides screwed.

The way they ''incite'' PvP playing is utterly disgusting. It's based on people with a lack of skill making PvE players so annoyed that they stop doing what they want and like to do, because they can't do those things with other players running around.

Give one good reason why PvE players should suffer at the expense of PvP players. PvE players aren't in the way of PvP players, the opposite is true.

Balanced? You are using that in a different sense than ZOS uses it. ZOS wants to have PVP and PVE work on similar principles as opposed to completely separating PVE and PVP. So until ZOS changes their mind (which they keep doubling down on it, so good luck), they will continue to encourage PVE players to go into PVP zones to give it a try. I already explained the benefits ZOS gets from doing that, including how they've emphasized that in the class representative program.

ZOS is well aware that many PVE only players hate having to PVP for skyshards, achievements, skills, and other rewards for doing the whole of the base game. They haven't changed the current system, and indeed keep adding rewards to PVP modes like Battlegrounds. (Insert the same speech about PVP players hating to PVE for stuff, and ZOS continuing to add PVE rewards.)

That's because this design benefits ZOS. It lets them continue to balance skills/classes for PVE and PVP together instead of separately. It lets them encourage people to play multiple game modes, not just the ones you happen to love. Whether that's PVP or PVE.

You don't like having to PVP, along with many other PVE players. We get that. ZOS hasnt managed to somehow miss that.

Unfortunately for you, the benefits ZOS derives from balancing PVE and PVP together rather than desperately, and also from encouraging players to play ALL of the game rather than conpletely segregating themselves into seperate communities outweighs the suffering of PVE only players "forced" to PVP or PVP players "forced" to PVE.

The problem is that you'll have a hard time finding PvE players demanding PvP rewards, because that's not what we're complaining about.

We're complaining about not being able to do part of the PvE element because of PvP players deciding to gank PvE players.

Mixing PvP and PvE only encourages the former while completely disrupting the latter. Barely anyone does PvE in Cyrodiil because of PvP players that gank 24/7, thinking they are ''pro's'', and that the others just have to ''get gud''.

Mixing a zone does not encourage trying out different game modes. Changing rewards does. And that change already exists. If people want PvP rewards, they have to do PvP, that's already a thing that exists. And that's not what we're complaining about.

Everyone gets ganked. I got ganked silly when I first started to PvP (AT LEVEL 10 in Full cp Vivec).

DAY Before yesterday, stepped out on the porch at Sej. Got ganked by a nerdblade. Rezzed back up and went right back out there 1v1ed and killed the nerd. No big deal.

If getting ganked is some kind of problem...learn PvP and kill the NB’s.

Last night I saw some 109cp DC hiding from half dozen AD near a resource flag. I was solo and thinking about killing him. My pals (these 1vXers many of whom you guys know or have heard of) were in discord with me but we’re off dueling somewhere all said “Kill that fool!” Basically. Which I did. Lol

Do you seriously not see the problem here?

You're forcing someone to do something that they don't want to do. PvE players do not go to Cyrodiil for the PvP element, but for the PvE element. Pve players stick away from PvP areas, like the keeps, lumbermills, alliance villages, etc. They are not there for PvP rewards, nor for the PvP, but for PvE.

Like, imagine you going to Battlegrounds, and suddenly you have to do some bloody puzzle halfway through (it's not the case, but imagine), would you be happy? No. Of course not. You came there for PvP, not to do some silly PvE puzzle.

PvP players in Cyrodiil do not have to deal with any PvE element if they don't want to, they can easily avoid it. The opposite is not true.

Fight or go home. I’m gonna try to kill EVERYONE of a different faction I run into. I’m gonna ASSUME you’re in Cyrodill to PvP and are just PRETENDING to grab that skyshard lol. RIP! Thanks for coming out!

Reistr_the_Unbroken · September 2018

Here’s a solution: keep everything the same, but put the Soul-Shriven skin and scamp pet in crown crates like the Mind-Shriven skin + horse were

Drakkdjinn · September 2018

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

PVE Players: it's not fair that we have to do pvp content to get our pve content completed

PVP Players: it's not fair that we have to do pve content to be BiS for our pvp content

There's no perfect answer, but my take on the whole thing is that MMO pvp is inherently flawed. Any game with versus play where person A can have 150% of the stats of person B at the same level in the same battleground / warfront / war / whatever is stupid. Period. This game actually isn't SO bad because gear is horizontal and not vertical, but there's still a lot of variance between green and gold gear.

With that in mind, the above arguments are vastly different. In PVE content, there are ways to "cheese" content, like having 3 tanks and healer to pretty much guarantee a clear albeit in 3 hours, or any number of other methods to ensure that you get the gear. But if bobby ganks-a-lot is camping billy mcqusterton as he's trying to finish the IC line or collect skyshards, he's got no choice but to come back later.

That's the critical difference: PvP is against players, who are inherently more frustrating, resourceful, and unpredictable opponents. I'm not saying PvP is harder than PvE, but you can actually prepare / practice / train for PvE content, while that is far more difficult for PvP. As many have pointed out, it's about reaction time and running with big groups and just flat-out getting lucky. There's very little "getting lucky" when it comes to fighting a boss. He doesn't decide to not gank you in that delve.

What I'm trying to say is that PvE players DO have a harder time going to Cyrodil and trying to get all their content done than PvPers jumping into dungeons. Not because PvP is harder, but because it is far easier for a PvPer to jump into PvE content than vice-versa.

What makes the jump more difficult for PvE players is that many, as this thread demonstrates, do nothing to adjust beyond complain on the forums. The PvP’ers with patience here have been kind enough to share all the info you’d need to either participate in or flat out avoid PvP in the one place designed for PvP no less & achieve all the PvE possible, but PvE’ers are still gonna cry & cry no matter how absurd their reasoning is; that will never change:
Some ppl can’t live with the idea that their toon died in an imaginary video game - as sad as that sounds, it ain’t gonna change.

Know what else ain’t gonna change? PvP happens in PvP; sorry not sorry.

rfennell_ESO · September 2018

NateAssassin wrote: »

Better yet, just create a campaign that has only PvE, so friends can play together across factions.

Oh wait that gives PvPers less carebears to trump, it won't ever happen because we can't upset the PvP masterrace.

Or better yet... make a pve cyrondil server with AI controlled armies fighting each other and the players. Imperial City included.

Drakkdjinn · September 2018

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Here’s a solution: keep everything the same, but put the Soul-Shriven skin and scamp pet in crown crates like the Mind-Shriven skin + horse were

Lol please: the only solution clown crates offer is how to make ZoS more $ for not actually selling anything.

PvP happens in PvP.

[Edit to remove bait]

TequilaFire · September 2018

Etienne_et_Isabeau wrote: »

I was thinking new DLC that was strictly PvE in Cyrodiil. You would be able to get most of the achievements, as well as Alliance Points.

Why would you get alliance points for not fighting for an alliance?
Makes as much sense as getting undaunted keys without doing pledges.

ArchMikem · September 2018

The easiest thing to do would be to create a PvE instance of Cyrodiil that takes place after the events of the Three Banners War. This war doesn't last forever and the Daedric Invasion of the Imperial City even ends after you complete the White Gold Tower Dungeon. So logically after the Daedric threat to the Empire is finished, the Empire would restore itself as the dominant power and the three Alliances would cease their hostilities eventually, leading to a Cyrodiil without the War.

kargen27 · September 2018

Bruccius wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

I bet these same players who want a PvE Cyrodiil are the same players that are against Normal Malestrom dropping imperfect weapons.

The argument was something like, "To get the reward, you have to do the content."

Now, I'm not saying the Malestrom idea is any good. I've beaten Malestrom more than I ever needed to.
What I'm saying is that any PvE player complaining about PvP in a PvP zone should take thier own advice. If you want the reward, you have to do the content.

Cyrodiil's also a PvE zone.

Yes Cyrodiil is also PvE zone. Key word is "also". Cyrodiil is both PvP and PvE at the same time. A lot of players like that Cyrodiil is unique in this way. Having it as both is good for the game.

VaranisArano · September 2018

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

PVE Players: it's not fair that we have to do pvp content to get our pve content completed

PVP Players: it's not fair that we have to do pve content to be BiS for our pvp content

There's no perfect answer, but my take on the whole thing is that MMO pvp is inherently flawed. Any game with versus play where person A can have 150% of the stats of person B at the same level in the same battleground / warfront / war / whatever is stupid. Period. This game actually isn't SO bad because gear is horizontal and not vertical, but there's still a lot of variance between green and gold gear.

With that in mind, the above arguments are vastly different. In PVE content, there are ways to "cheese" content, like having 3 tanks and healer to pretty much guarantee a clear albeit in 3 hours, or any number of other methods to ensure that you get the gear. But if bobby ganks-a-lot is camping billy mcqusterton as he's trying to finish the IC line or collect skyshards, he's got no choice but to come back later.

That's the critical difference: PvP is against players, who are inherently more frustrating, resourceful, and unpredictable opponents. I'm not saying PvP is harder than PvE, but you can actually prepare / practice / train for PvE content, while that is far more difficult for PvP. As many have pointed out, it's about reaction time and running with big groups and just flat-out getting lucky. There's very little "getting lucky" when it comes to fighting a boss. He doesn't decide to not gank you in that delve.

What I'm trying to say is that PvE players DO have a harder time going to Cyrodil and trying to get all their content done than PvPers jumping into dungeons. Not because PvP is harder, but because it is far easier for a PvPer to jump into PvE content than vice-versa.

Oh yeah. The learning curve for PVP is brutal. Brutal.

I remember being lost in Cyrodiil. I remember dying to NOC resource guards. I remember getting ganked whike fishing. I remember being completely and utterly useless in a fight and just having no clue what to do.

Thing is, PVP is very different from PVE. Different skills, different rotations, different combat cues, smarter enemies, different battlefields, the while nine yards.

So yeah, PVE players coming to PVP have a lot to learn. I know, because I stuck around long enough for my PVE-only-Skyrim-loving self to learn how to PVP.

I had a ton of help from PVPers along the way. From guildmates to helpful forum posts, I'm lots better than when I started. That didn't happen by accident, any more than good PVE players are born by walking into dungeons and figuring out how to do amazing DPS all on their lonesome.

We all need help from others and training and practice to get good at this game.

So, yeah, PVP has a steep learning curve. It takes practice. It takes help from other players. It takes perseverance. It takes being willing to die a lot and learn from mistakes, even once you are experienced.

Its also very doable for any player who's willing to put the effort in to find a PVP style that works for them. I love healing in PVP. Others love ganking, or tanking, or bombing, or zerging.

But if you aren't willing to put in even the basic effort of putting on Impen gear or grabbing stealth pots when you head into Imperial City, well, your learning curve for PVP is about to be very very steep indeed.

Sylvermynx · September 2018

Eh, I just won't ever enter Cyrodiil period. I despise pvp, I won't do it, I won't put my girls in the way of it, and I'm anything but a completionist anyway. Y'all can sit there in your pvp glory and you'll never get a shot at me. Yeah yeah - I'm only one player. Works for me.

I actually played on a pvp server in WoW, in a friend's guild - mostly to join the guild raids. The raids weren't fun either - and getting ganked out in the world sucked boulders through straws. By the time I could holler for help from whatever guildies were online, I was dead. My lag sucks, so dead is dead usually in a couple of seconds. I got one kill on my own in 6 months - and it was actually an even-level toon. I actually HATED it - I don't believe in killing other players' characters, and it shouldn't be classed as "fun".

So I gritted it out for those 6 months and then I deleted my toons on that server, and returned to my regular servers, where I had to actively CHOOSE to pvp by flagging, the which I did NOT (unless I absent-mindedly walked into the wrong area - but that's on me.... happened a few times....) Ditto RIFT though I never did pvp there at all.

So nope, ain't hap'nin. Just - yuck. Oh. And as for ZOS? They can suck rocks too because I don't CARE about what they envision - I only care about paying them to play the game MY WAY. Selfish? Yeah. *shrug*

Azuramoonstar · September 2018

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, I just won't ever enter Cyrodiil period. I despise pvp, I won't do it, I won't put my girls in the way of it, and I'm anything but a completionist anyway. Y'all can sit there in your pvp glory and you'll never get a shot at me. Yeah yeah - I'm only one player. Works for me.

I actually played on a pvp server in WoW, in a friend's guild - mostly to join the guild raids. The raids weren't fun either - and getting ganked out in the world sucked boulders through straws. By the time I could holler for help from whatever guildies were online, I was dead. My lag sucks, so dead is dead usually in a couple of seconds. I got one kill on my own in 6 months - and it was actually an even-level toon. I actually HATED it - I don't believe in killing other players' characters, and it shouldn't be classed as "fun".

So I gritted it out for those 6 months and then I deleted my toons on that server, and returned to my regular servers, where I had to actively CHOOSE to pvp by flagging, the which I did NOT (unless I absent-mindedly walked into the wrong area - but that's on me.... happened a few times....) Ditto RIFT though I never did pvp there at all.

So nope, ain't hap'nin. Just - yuck. Oh. And as for ZOS? They can suck rocks too because I don't CARE about what they envision - I only care about paying them to play the game MY WAY. Selfish? Yeah. *shrug*

you take things to seriously. being killed by a player is no different then getting killed by a mob.

Sylvermynx · September 2018

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, I just won't ever enter Cyrodiil period. I despise pvp, I won't do it, I won't put my girls in the way of it, and I'm anything but a completionist anyway. Y'all can sit there in your pvp glory and you'll never get a shot at me. Yeah yeah - I'm only one player. Works for me.

I actually played on a pvp server in WoW, in a friend's guild - mostly to join the guild raids. The raids weren't fun either - and getting ganked out in the world sucked boulders through straws. By the time I could holler for help from whatever guildies were online, I was dead. My lag sucks, so dead is dead usually in a couple of seconds. I got one kill on my own in 6 months - and it was actually an even-level toon. I actually HATED it - I don't believe in killing other players' characters, and it shouldn't be classed as "fun".

So I gritted it out for those 6 months and then I deleted my toons on that server, and returned to my regular servers, where I had to actively CHOOSE to pvp by flagging, the which I did NOT (unless I absent-mindedly walked into the wrong area - but that's on me.... happened a few times....) Ditto RIFT though I never did pvp there at all.

So nope, ain't hap'nin. Just - yuck. Oh. And as for ZOS? They can suck rocks too because I don't CARE about what they envision - I only care about paying them to play the game MY WAY. Selfish? Yeah. *shrug*

you take things to seriously. being killed by a player is no different then getting killed by a mob.

That's your opinion. I'm entitled to mine. I guess if you can't see the difference....

VaranisArano · September 2018

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, I just won't ever enter Cyrodiil period. I despise pvp, I won't do it, I won't put my girls in the way of it, and I'm anything but a completionist anyway. Y'all can sit there in your pvp glory and you'll never get a shot at me. Yeah yeah - I'm only one player. Works for me.

I actually played on a pvp server in WoW, in a friend's guild - mostly to join the guild raids. The raids weren't fun either - and getting ganked out in the world sucked boulders through straws. By the time I could holler for help from whatever guildies were online, I was dead. My lag sucks, so dead is dead usually in a couple of seconds. I got one kill on my own in 6 months - and it was actually an even-level toon. I actually HATED it - I don't believe in killing other players' characters, and it shouldn't be classed as "fun".

So I gritted it out for those 6 months and then I deleted my toons on that server, and returned to my regular servers, where I had to actively CHOOSE to pvp by flagging, the which I did NOT (unless I absent-mindedly walked into the wrong area - but that's on me.... happened a few times....) Ditto RIFT though I never did pvp there at all.

So nope, ain't hap'nin. Just - yuck. Oh. And as for ZOS? They can suck rocks too because I don't CARE about what they envision - I only care about paying them to play the game MY WAY. Selfish? Yeah. *shrug*

Selfish? Nah. Play the game the way you want. I used to be PVE only myself.

As long as you are okay with not getting the rewards ZOS deliberately gated into PVP content, rock on! That's what got me into PVP. I wanted those Master Angler fish bad enough that I was willing to go into Cyrodiil, and eventually I tried out PVP. That's pretty much why ZOS gates those rewards into PVP content.

There's nothing wrong with not liking PVP and refusing to do it.

Its when people start asking to remove PVP from the rewards that were deliberately put into PVP zones that I'll disagree.

Sylvermynx · September 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, I just won't ever enter Cyrodiil period. I despise pvp, I won't do it, I won't put my girls in the way of it, and I'm anything but a completionist anyway. Y'all can sit there in your pvp glory and you'll never get a shot at me. Yeah yeah - I'm only one player. Works for me.

I actually played on a pvp server in WoW, in a friend's guild - mostly to join the guild raids. The raids weren't fun either - and getting ganked out in the world sucked boulders through straws. By the time I could holler for help from whatever guildies were online, I was dead. My lag sucks, so dead is dead usually in a couple of seconds. I got one kill on my own in 6 months - and it was actually an even-level toon. I actually HATED it - I don't believe in killing other players' characters, and it shouldn't be classed as "fun".

So I gritted it out for those 6 months and then I deleted my toons on that server, and returned to my regular servers, where I had to actively CHOOSE to pvp by flagging, the which I did NOT (unless I absent-mindedly walked into the wrong area - but that's on me.... happened a few times....) Ditto RIFT though I never did pvp there at all.

So nope, ain't hap'nin. Just - yuck. Oh. And as for ZOS? They can suck rocks too because I don't CARE about what they envision - I only care about paying them to play the game MY WAY. Selfish? Yeah. *shrug*

Selfish? Nah. Play the game the way you want. I used to be PVE only myself.

As long as you are okay with not getting the rewards ZOS deliberately gated into PVP content, rock on! That's what got me into PVP. I wanted those Master Angler fish bad enough that I was willing to go into Cyrodiil, and eventually I tried out PVP. That's pretty much why ZOS gates those rewards into PVP content.

There's nothing wrong with not liking PVP and refusing to do it.

Its when people start asking to remove PVP from the rewards that were deliberately put into PVP zones that I'll disagree.

Yah, I'm not saying to get rid of it. I'm saying nothing is important enough to me to ever go there again.

Lumenn · September 2018

Why not have a "safe zone"(say, 5 feet or so) around the skyshards. I don't pvp(yet) but it seems this way pve players have a chance to run to it and collect while still having to avoid or fight to the shards.

Jinchuu · September 2018

I remember when MMO players actually had some grit to them, then WoW came along and now the majority are a bunch of cowards quivering a corner terrified of other players.

Sylvermynx · September 2018

Jinchuu wrote: »

I remember when MMO players actually had some grit to them, then WoW came along and now the majority are a bunch of cowards quivering a corner terrified of other players.

Speak for yourself John.

Doctordarkspawn · September 2018

NateAssassin wrote: »

Better yet, just create a campaign that has only PvE, so friends can play together across factions.

Oh wait that gives PvPers less carebears to trump, it won't ever happen because we can't upset the PvP masterrace.

This.

*Nobody wants PVEers in a PVP campaign* and the only reason we exist is basicly game hunting. Not going in while that's the case, ZOS.

Drakkdjinn · September 2018

ArchMikem wrote: »

The easiest thing to do would be to create a PvE instance of Cyrodiil that takes place after the events of the Three Banners War. This war doesn't last forever and the Daedric Invasion of the Imperial City even ends after you complete the White Gold Tower Dungeon. So logically after the Daedric threat to the Empire is finished, the Empire would restore itself as the dominant power and the three Alliances would cease their hostilities eventually, leading to a Cyrodiil without the War.

Nah, the easiest thing to do would be to PvP, or don’t - who cares!

VaranisArano wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

PVE Players: it's not fair that we have to do pvp content to get our pve content completed

PVP Players: it's not fair that we have to do pve content to be BiS for our pvp content

There's no perfect answer, but my take on the whole thing is that MMO pvp is inherently flawed. Any game with versus play where person A can have 150% of the stats of person B at the same level in the same battleground / warfront / war / whatever is stupid. Period. This game actually isn't SO bad because gear is horizontal and not vertical, but there's still a lot of variance between green and gold gear.

With that in mind, the above arguments are vastly different. In PVE content, there are ways to "cheese" content, like having 3 tanks and healer to pretty much guarantee a clear albeit in 3 hours, or any number of other methods to ensure that you get the gear. But if bobby ganks-a-lot is camping billy mcqusterton as he's trying to finish the IC line or collect skyshards, he's got no choice but to come back later.

That's the critical difference: PvP is against players, who are inherently more frustrating, resourceful, and unpredictable opponents. I'm not saying PvP is harder than PvE, but you can actually prepare / practice / train for PvE content, while that is far more difficult for PvP. As many have pointed out, it's about reaction time and running with big groups and just flat-out getting lucky. There's very little "getting lucky" when it comes to fighting a boss. He doesn't decide to not gank you in that delve.

What I'm trying to say is that PvE players DO have a harder time going to Cyrodil and trying to get all their content done than PvPers jumping into dungeons. Not because PvP is harder, but because it is far easier for a PvPer to jump into PvE content than vice-versa.

Oh yeah. The learning curve for PVP is brutal. Brutal.

I remember being lost in Cyrodiil. I remember dying to NOC resource guards. I remember getting ganked whike fishing. I remember being completely and utterly useless in a fight and just having no clue what to do.

Thing is, PVP is very different from PVE. Different skills, different rotations, different combat cues, smarter enemies, different battlefields, the while nine yards.

So yeah, PVE players coming to PVP have a lot to learn. I know, because I stuck around long enough for my PVE-only-Skyrim-loving self to learn how to PVP.

I had a ton of help from PVPers along the way. From guildmates to helpful forum posts, I'm lots better than when I started. That didn't happen by accident, any more than good PVE players are born by walking into dungeons and figuring out how to do amazing DPS all on their lonesome.

We all need help from others and training and practice to get good at this game.

So, yeah, PVP has a steep learning curve. It takes practice. It takes help from other players. It takes perseverance. It takes being willing to die a lot and learn from mistakes, even once you are experienced.

Its also very doable for any player who's willing to put the effort in to find a PVP style that works for them. I love healing in PVP. Others love ganking, or tanking, or bombing, or zerging.

But if you aren't willing to put in even the basic effort of putting on Impen gear or grabbing stealth pots when you head into Imperial City, well, your learning curve for PVP is about to be very very steep indeed.

QFT

VaranisArano · September 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

Better yet, just create a campaign that has only PvE, so friends can play together across factions.

Oh wait that gives PvPers less carebears to trump, it won't ever happen because we can't upset the PvP masterrace.

This.

*Nobody wants PVEers in a PVP campaign* and the only reason we exist is basicly game hunting. Not going in while that's the case, ZOS.

Sad thing is that if you go into PVP with your PVE gear and skills and try to treat it exactly like a PVE zone, yeah, you are going to be good for game hunting to any PVPer who attacks.

But the problem there is that you walked into a PVP zone and expected to succeed even though you are treating it like a PVE zone.

Wear Impen gear.
Get tanky. You'll need the extra health to compensate for making mistakes.
Use heals proactively during a fight.
Use burst damage skills.
Use Line of Sight and Stealth.
Be prepared to die, rez up, and try again. We all die. You aren't alone.

I want PVEers in Cyrodiil. I used to be a PVEer in Cyrodiil. But crucially, I understand that you can't be a PVEer in Cyrodiil, in PVE gear using PVE skills, and have a good time in PVP.

So I don't want PVEers in Cyrodiil because you are easy prey. I want PVE players who are willing to learn and try to PVP, and it makes it a lot easier for people who want to learn if they prepare for PVP. If you want to learn, most PVPers will do their best to help.

kargen27 · September 2018

Lumenn wrote: »

Why not have a "safe zone"(say, 5 feet or so) around the skyshards. I don't pvp(yet) but it seems this way pve players have a chance to run to it and collect while still having to avoid or fight to the shards.

A few of the skyshards are behind enemy gates and you can't always get to them. You need to be very lucky and very sneaky if you are alone and want to get close to them. Not that I would change things to make them easier to get to. Eventually you can get them and if you go with a group it can be fun.

munster1404 · September 2018

I despise PvP hence I only log in when the player population is low. Problem solved (mostly).

Mr_Walker · September 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

That's what got me into PVP. I wanted those Master Angler fish bad enough that I was willing to go into Cyrodiil, and eventually I tried out PVP.

Bit rough where the salt fishing spot is though. Zos could and should do something about that.

ArchMikem · September 2018

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, I just won't ever enter Cyrodiil period. I despise pvp, I won't do it, I won't put my girls in the way of it, and I'm anything but a completionist anyway. Y'all can sit there in your pvp glory and you'll never get a shot at me. Yeah yeah - I'm only one player. Works for me.

I actually played on a pvp server in WoW, in a friend's guild - mostly to join the guild raids. The raids weren't fun either - and getting ganked out in the world sucked boulders through straws. By the time I could holler for help from whatever guildies were online, I was dead. My lag sucks, so dead is dead usually in a couple of seconds. I got one kill on my own in 6 months - and it was actually an even-level toon. I actually HATED it - I don't believe in killing other players' characters, and it shouldn't be classed as "fun".

So I gritted it out for those 6 months and then I deleted my toons on that server, and returned to my regular servers, where I had to actively CHOOSE to pvp by flagging, the which I did NOT (unless I absent-mindedly walked into the wrong area - but that's on me.... happened a few times....) Ditto RIFT though I never did pvp there at all.

So nope, ain't hap'nin. Just - yuck. Oh. And as for ZOS? They can suck rocks too because I don't CARE about what they envision - I only care about paying them to play the game MY WAY. Selfish? Yeah. *shrug*

you take things to seriously. being killed by a player is no different then getting killed by a mob.

Lol, no.

A mob doesn't teabag your body. A mob doesn't taunt you with emotes. A mob doesn't send you hate tells. When a mob is done with you they just go back to their idle position. When a person does it, they make it personal.

Sylvermynx · September 2018

ArchMikem wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, I just won't ever enter Cyrodiil period. I despise pvp, I won't do it, I won't put my girls in the way of it, and I'm anything but a completionist anyway. Y'all can sit there in your pvp glory and you'll never get a shot at me. Yeah yeah - I'm only one player. Works for me.

I actually played on a pvp server in WoW, in a friend's guild - mostly to join the guild raids. The raids weren't fun either - and getting ganked out in the world sucked boulders through straws. By the time I could holler for help from whatever guildies were online, I was dead. My lag sucks, so dead is dead usually in a couple of seconds. I got one kill on my own in 6 months - and it was actually an even-level toon. I actually HATED it - I don't believe in killing other players' characters, and it shouldn't be classed as "fun".

So I gritted it out for those 6 months and then I deleted my toons on that server, and returned to my regular servers, where I had to actively CHOOSE to pvp by flagging, the which I did NOT (unless I absent-mindedly walked into the wrong area - but that's on me.... happened a few times....) Ditto RIFT though I never did pvp there at all.

So nope, ain't hap'nin. Just - yuck. Oh. And as for ZOS? They can suck rocks too because I don't CARE about what they envision - I only care about paying them to play the game MY WAY. Selfish? Yeah. *shrug*

you take things to seriously. being killed by a player is no different then getting killed by a mob.

Lol, no.

A mob doesn't teabag your body. A mob doesn't taunt you with emotes. A mob doesn't send you hate tells. When a mob is done with you they just go back to their idle position. When a person does it, they make it personal.

Thanks. I couldn't quite express how distasteful the interactions are. You did if for me. Kudos to you.

Drakkdjinn · September 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

Better yet, just create a campaign that has only PvE, so friends can play together across factions.

Oh wait that gives PvPers less carebears to trump, it won't ever happen because we can't upset the PvP masterrace.

This.

*Nobody wants PVEers in a PVP campaign* and the only reason we exist is basicly game hunting. Not going in while that's the case, ZOS.

Sad thing is that if you go into PVP with your PVE gear and skills and try to treat it exactly like a PVE zone, yeah, you are going to be good for game hunting to any PVPer who attacks.

But the problem there is that you walked into a PVP zone and expected to succeed even though you are treating it like a PVE zone.

Wear Impen gear.
Get tanky. You'll need the extra health to compensate for making mistakes.
Use heals proactively during a fight.
Use burst damage skills.
Use Line of Sight and Stealth.
Be prepared to die, rez up, and try again. We all die. You aren't alone.

I want PVEers in Cyrodiil. I used to be a PVEer in Cyrodiil. But crucially, I understand that you can't be a PVEer in Cyrodiil, in PVE gear using PVE skills, and have a good time in PVP.

So I don't want PVEers in Cyrodiil because you are easy prey. I want PVE players who are willing to learn and try to PVP, and it makes it a lot easier for people who want to learn if they prepare for PVP. If you want to learn, most PVPers will do their best to help.

Moar truth & sensible advice.

ArchMikem wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, I just won't ever enter Cyrodiil period. I despise pvp, I won't do it, I won't put my girls in the way of it, and I'm anything but a completionist anyway. Y'all can sit there in your pvp glory and you'll never get a shot at me. Yeah yeah - I'm only one player. Works for me.

I actually played on a pvp server in WoW, in a friend's guild - mostly to join the guild raids. The raids weren't fun either - and getting ganked out in the world sucked boulders through straws. By the time I could holler for help from whatever guildies were online, I was dead. My lag sucks, so dead is dead usually in a couple of seconds. I got one kill on my own in 6 months - and it was actually an even-level toon. I actually HATED it - I don't believe in killing other players' characters, and it shouldn't be classed as "fun".

So I gritted it out for those 6 months and then I deleted my toons on that server, and returned to my regular servers, where I had to actively CHOOSE to pvp by flagging, the which I did NOT (unless I absent-mindedly walked into the wrong area - but that's on me.... happened a few times....) Ditto RIFT though I never did pvp there at all.

So nope, ain't hap'nin. Just - yuck. Oh. And as for ZOS? They can suck rocks too because I don't CARE about what they envision - I only care about paying them to play the game MY WAY. Selfish? Yeah. *shrug*

you take things to seriously. being killed by a player is no different then getting killed by a mob.

Lol, no.

A mob doesn't teabag your body. A mob doesn't taunt you with emotes. A mob doesn't send you hate tells. When a mob is done with you they just go back to their idle position. When a person does it, they make it personal I choose to take it personally.

Fix'd.