Do we need to lower in combat speedcap?

Kadoin · September 2018

idk wrote: »

Not that it matters but the poll choices are poorly worded. For starters Op fAiled to include the most obvious choice and that would be to directly reduce the effectiveness of the swift trait. Certainly more obvious that preventing the trait from stacking.

Besides that the statement falsely indicates someoek choosing the swift trait isn’t sacrificing damage when clearly the choice of swift means they are not choosing. TrIt that would increase damage.

I would suggest the entire poll and comments with it might be affected by bias.

When you can avoid 90-100% of damage using speed because no one can target you, you can wear pure damage sets and fear nothing. When you are targeted and can use speed to force "miss," you have little to no need for defense either. Guess what that means? You're not losing anything.

Undefwun · September 2018

Why does every class/build need access to everything?

People see what they don’t have over what they do.

Lets just have one class and just slap box. No armour no weapons, just light n heavy attacks.

Homogenisation is not fun.

Heavy armour should never move as fast as medium. It should be resists vs speed vs shields/healing (light).

Every class/build should have a hard counter.

What needs to be nerfed is bs dmg proc sets. They need bigger trade offs. No free dmg. Kinda like Kena.

Frawr · September 2018

Yet another nerf thread.

This sort of thread is one of the reasons that the game becomes so bland.

Jeremy · September 2018

Ariades_swe wrote: »

Since there's alot of complaints about how certain stamina setups gets easy access to over 60 percent speedbuff without having to sacrifice any damage sets or rely on non stam oriented pots do you think swift trait should be made non stackable with major expedition or should we lower speed cap to 50.

I think it's fine.

If people want to sacrifice the stats on the jewelry for speed they should be able to.

This game needs more ways to escape combat, not less.

ak_pvp · September 2018

Other: Completely revamp the snare and hold your ground systems. The current speed meta is because
1) Snares are too strong, as such the majority of cyro are builds who are completely immune to the natural counter, wheras the other half is snared to 40% of base movement speed and are nearly unplayable.
2) Being fast lets you maintain more dmg and evade more dmg than a slow, easy to kill stand your ground build.

Snares need a major and minor system. 30% and 10% respectively. This would stop them being so oppressively strong, Its possible to keep a permanent 60% with ease.

On the flip side, to lower speed: They need to completely remove snare immunity, however grant snare+root removal and only a potency reduction for snares. Any root removal, including ritual, would give the same immunity that a dodge roll does. A potency reduction would change a 40% snare into a 20%, still snaring, but being less strong for mobile builds.
They need to be multiplicative, as to be more effective to speed stackers. They need to be detached from the majority of skills they are currently on, since its too easy to snare freely, it should be a conscious part of a stand your ground offense

Rikumaru · September 2018

Dunno about you, but I love the fact that people are running different kinds of traits for different kinds of builds. Swift isn't good on every build out there, only ones which use mobility already as a defense or classes which their main weakness is mobility. And when people use arguments like WB and jabs aren't hitting / are weak vs full mobility builds, maybe that's a problem with those skills in general rather than swift (particularly with jabs). FYI I still run full arcane.

Priyasekarssk · September 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Pretty sure the correct answer is nerfing swift considering its the main reason for this mobility creep in the first place and also beats medium armor passives/orc passives due to not requiring sprint.

Main problem is speed is broken at high speeds above 50 percent. You cannot do target or CC abilities and many aware of this and exploiting this.

Mrsinister2 · September 2018

Swift is fine imo

Makes magplar so much better to play and those super fast builds were super fast without swift.

I will say tho I don't even bother with Stam sorcs any more there untouchable

Chilly-McFreeze · September 2018

Undefwun wrote: »

Every class/build should have a hard counter.

No. Hardcounters are terrible. Soft counters are great, like in: X has an edge on Y, but skill can overcome this odd. But "X isn't an I-win class/build/etc. against Y" is no fun. There is a difference.

OR do you feel like it's a good idea to put away the keyboard just because you happen to run into X while on your Y, 'cause there is nothing you can do?

paulsimonps · September 2018

eso_nya wrote: »

better idea: give every class/spec easy and cheap access to major expedition in combat.
e.g.
warden wings -> +5 sec duration
ritual of retribution -> + major expedition while u r in circle (similar to path of darkness; would still suck prolly)
foo -> + major expedition while buff is active

or revamp rapids: one morph stam, one morph mag (i dont really know what the morphs do, as i only use the unmorphed version xD), cost down to 2~2,5k, doest drop when u enter combat.

If u want to fix it with nerfing, leave swift alone and nerf hurricane.

Might not be 100% up to date cause I haven't updated it since Summerset but this is the list I have for sources of Major Expedition:

Sorcerer Storm Calling Ability: Boundless Storm (Morph of Lightning Form)
Dark Brotherhood Passive: Padomaic Sprint
Assault Ability: Rapid Maneuver+Morphs
Dual Wield Ability: Quick Cloak (Morph of Blade Cloak)
Bow Passive. Hasty Retreat
Nightblade Assassination Ability: Double Take (Morph of Blur)
Nightblade Shadow Ability: Path of Darkness+Morphs
Nightblade Siphoning Ability: Cripple+Morphs
Dragonknight Ardent Flame Ability: Fiery Grip+Morphs
Warden Animal Companions Ability: Falcon's Swiftness+Morphs
Warden Winter's Embrace Ability: Frozen Retreat (Morph of Frozen Gate)
Vampire Ability: Elusive Mist (Morph of Mist Form)
Psijic Order Ability: Accelerate+Morphs
Alchemy Poison/Potion: Speed (Scrib Jelly, Namira's Rot, Blessed Thistle)
Armor Set: Dreugh King Slayer (Loot)
Armor Set: Vicious Serpent (Loot)
Armor Set: Quick Serpent (Loot)
Armor Set: Skooma Smuggler (Loot)
Armor Set: Coward's Gear (Loot)
Armor Set: Daedric Trickery Set (Crafted)

Safe to say that if you want Major Expedition, you can get it.

revonine · September 2018

Characters moving quick is not necessarily the issue for me. The issue is targeting such speedy characters with the games targeting especially on console. Extreme speed chars like stamsorcs running swift are an absolute nightmare to target using a controller.

ak_pvp · September 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Undefwun wrote: »

Every class/build should have a hard counter.

No. Hardcounters are terrible. Soft counters are great, like in: X has an edge on Y, but skill can overcome this odd. But "X isn't an I-win class/build/etc. against Y" is no fun. There is a difference.

OR do you feel like it's a good idea to put away the keyboard just because you happen to run into X while on your Y, 'cause there is nothing you can do?

Agreed, hardcounters suck. The problem is with speed builds is that they have little in soft counters, as they can keep FM up 100% of the time. So the counters is absolutely useless, and instead only hardcounters already slow builds.

Chilly-McFreeze · September 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Undefwun wrote: »

Every class/build should have a hard counter.

No. Hardcounters are terrible. Soft counters are great, like in: X has an edge on Y, but skill can overcome this odd. But "X isn't an I-win class/build/etc. against Y" is no fun. There is a difference.

OR do you feel like it's a good idea to put away the keyboard just because you happen to run into X while on your Y, 'cause there is nothing you can do?

Agreed, hardcounters suck. The problem is with speed builds is that they have little in soft counters, as they can keep FM up 100% of the time. So the counters is absolutely useless, and instead only hardcounters already slow builds.

A good start would be to swap snare immunity durations on shuffle and FM, so at least heavy armor builds have it a little harder to stay mobile.

Ragnarock41 · September 2018

If you really defend swift you have no right to ask for speed cap nerfs. This whole problem started with swift. Its overperforming and you know it too.

TheDoomsdayMonster · September 2018

If Swift is overturned, then so is Speed Pot duration...

That is all...

Undefwun · September 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Undefwun wrote: »

Every class/build should have a hard counter.

No. Hardcounters are terrible. Soft counters are great, like in: X has an edge on Y, but skill can overcome this odd. But "X isn't an I-win class/build/etc. against Y" is no fun. There is a difference.

OR do you feel like it's a good idea to put away the keyboard just because you happen to run into X while on your Y, 'cause there is nothing you can do?

You are 100% right... poor choice of words...

Ragnarock41 · September 2018

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

If Swift is overturned, then so is Speed Pot duration...

That is all...

Nothing stops you from using speed potions which will give you a strong heal over time with major expedition(which is also a buff you can get elsewhere, like abilities from empowering chains,falcon swiftness, magsorc's resist skill-other morph of hurricane-... soo many ways to access it for magicka, magblades also have it , from cripple I think? anyways, even without the need for pots most magicka classes already have access to it.Stamina uses these potions because outside of stamden with falcon, or the coward's gear set, they have no way of access to this buff.)

The only thing that makes a difference is swift, medium armor builds and orc passive only work when you sprint so there is a clear disadvantage for those you can't utilize those while also fighting. But swift is a lot better than both.

So we have a situation where medium armor's combat mobility is matched with no problems by both light armor and heavy armor users, which is due to how dumb strong swift is.

Rianai · September 2018

Most skills which grant Major Expedition only grant it for a very short time (<10s), which makes them clearly subpar to speed pots, which gives you perma Expedition without having to spam a skill every few seconds. I use Cripple on magblade and still started using speed pots and those are simply so much better for mobility, it is not even close (even compared to pre nerf Cripple).

Speed pots are just as much contributing to those "speed issues" as swift. And even though i don't have swift jewelry myself (might eventually get some) i would not like to see it nerfed. Mobility is fun and mostly benefitting solo and small scale players.

jcm2606 · September 2018

On a slight tangent, how would one even prevent Swift stacking with Major/Minor Expedition? If it's applied multiplicatively, sure, Zenimax could change it to apply additively with existing speed buffs. If it already is applied additively, though, the only way of preventing Swift stacking with Major/Minor Expedition would be to have Swift reduce the effectiveness of both buffs. Don't know about anybody else, but that seems, I don't know, a bit shoehorned in?

CyrusArya · September 2018

I see a lot of ppl are jealous of the stamboi staple consumable. But I doubt they are gonna nerf the most lucrative and sought after goldsink for half the PvP population. Speed pots encourage build diversity and also have a trade off in not being able to use tri pots which are very strong in their own right. The issue is swift, but more importantly the game’s awful targeting and server issues.

technohic · September 2018

I have no problem with the speed being there outside of whether the game functions or not when its happening. Id say just fix the game, and in the likelyhood of that still not happening, lower the speed cap. But 50% might be a bit too much. Just enough that the game can keep up yet you still have a powerful addition by having expedition buffs or swift and even orc and steed boosts.

Chilly-McFreeze · September 2018

CyrusArya wrote: »

I see a lot of ppl are jealous of the stamboi staple consumable. But I doubt they are gonna nerf the most lucrative and sought after goldsink for half the PvP population. Speed pots encourage build diversity and also have a trade off in not being able to use tri pots which are very strong in their own right. The issue is swift, but more importantly the game’s awful targeting and server issues.

Funny thing is that lingering health + major expedition pots are by no means bound to stam builds, but due it's no-resource nature open to everyone. It just seems like people are angry that those pots don't also restore magicka.

technohic wrote: »

I have no problem with the speed being there outside of whether the game functions or not when its happening. Id say just fix the game, and in the likelyhood of that still not happening, lower the speed cap. But 50% might be a bit too much. Just enough that the game can keep up yet you still have a powerful addition by having expedition buffs or swift and even orc and steed boosts.

With all the lag going on you could reduce the speed cap to standard sprinting speed and you still wouldn't be able to not miss at any given time. You're asking for a band aid solution, a concept this game is riddled with and that moves it further into a broken state with each use of yet another band aid.

Also, orc passives shouldn't be an issue in this discussion since it only boosts sprinting, which locks them out of skills.