Do You Expect Your Tank to DPS in PVE?
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MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
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OTOH, why is that necessarily a problem? "Healers in ESO are more about supporting the group with unique (de)buffs*, less about giving health back" seems rather fine.
* I'm not saying that this is the case at the moment. It's (often) not. But it's imho more important to ask how healers could be more useful, not only or necessarily healing.Survive, taunt, pack & debuff (in order of importance) enough to ditch healer for a 3rd dps to burn thing easierTank should not be concerned with direct DPS, they do indirect DPS by debuffing the enemies and buffing their allies.
If they do a good job of this, then the DPS who have optimized their damage can get even more out of their builds.
I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.
@Tasear
This is how healing is looked at currently in the game by players.
Don't exactly know why healers are brought up in a tank thread, but thought as healer class rep, it's important for you to see this issue.
Yeah, for dungeons though, and only certain ones.
For trials, you won't see anyone saying they can "heal themselves just fine". They would cry if there was no healer.
Because there was a discussion in the healer discord about how to make healing relevant in all content, not just trials.
Overworld, dungeons, and trials.
The responses I posted give insight into how healing is seen, so relevant to the healer rep who is in communication with the development team.
Healers aren't meant to be bards, throwing out buffs and debuffs, at least, not before healing. That's why it's called being a healer. As of now, it's backwards.
That's a problem, and one that the dev team (according to the class rep) also sees as a problem.
unless we're doing hard modes we take a magblade with spc, refreshing path and funnel health instead of a "healer" these days.
the sad fact is that having a dedicated healer over heals the group for 95% of the content. It's not just not required, it's a detriment.
You (dps mains) constantly say that "majority of vet dungeons doesn't require tank or/and heal" but somehow weak tank or heal usually make dungeon run much longer, tedious and difficult and if they are fake it just ends up kicking or cp780 fake escapes by himself with words "i'm tired of noobs"..
And then normal, non-hybrid, noob, cp300 tank or healer comes to the rescue and boss which you previously struggled to take to 50% of health 5 times, that boss is dealt within minute. But of course tank and heal are just "supports of limited use" they should be semi-dps like OP asked.4 -
Finviuswe✭✭✭✭No, I merely expect each DPS to do a minimum of 25k DPS. I do not expect the tank to DPS.Edited by Finviuswe on September 4, 2018 12:38AM3 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Survive, taunt, pack & debuff (in order of importance) enough to ditch healer for a 3rd dps to burn thing easierTank should not be concerned with direct DPS, they do indirect DPS by debuffing the enemies and buffing their allies.
If they do a good job of this, then the DPS who have optimized their damage can get even more out of their builds.
I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.
@Tasear
This is how healing is looked at currently in the game by players.
Don't exactly know why healers are brought up in a tank thread, but thought as healer class rep, it's important for you to see this issue.
@Tasear
Offering another perspective, it's not that healers are worthless, it's that DPS is too valued. It's that DPS is too necessary.
That's the real problem here.4 -
Kel✭✭✭✭✭
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OTOH, why is that necessarily a problem? "Healers in ESO are more about supporting the group with unique (de)buffs*, less about giving health back" seems rather fine.
* I'm not saying that this is the case at the moment. It's (often) not. But it's imho more important to ask how healers could be more useful, not only or necessarily healing.Survive, taunt, pack & debuff (in order of importance) enough to ditch healer for a 3rd dps to burn thing easierTank should not be concerned with direct DPS, they do indirect DPS by debuffing the enemies and buffing their allies.
If they do a good job of this, then the DPS who have optimized their damage can get even more out of their builds.
I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.
@Tasear
This is how healing is looked at currently in the game by players.
Don't exactly know why healers are brought up in a tank thread, but thought as healer class rep, it's important for you to see this issue.
Yeah, for dungeons though, and only certain ones.
For trials, you won't see anyone saying they can "heal themselves just fine". They would cry if there was no healer.
Because there was a discussion in the healer discord about how to make healing relevant in all content, not just trials.
Overworld, dungeons, and trials.
The responses I posted give insight into how healing is seen, so relevant to the healer rep who is in communication with the development team.
Healers aren't meant to be bards, throwing out buffs and debuffs, at least, not before healing. That's why it's called being a healer. As of now, it's backwards.
That's a problem, and one that the dev team (according to the class rep) also sees as a problem.
unless we're doing hard modes we take a magblade with spc, refreshing path and funnel health instead of a "healer" these days.
the sad fact is that having a dedicated healer over heals the group for 95% of the content. It's not just not required, it's a detriment.
And this is exactly why Zos asked class reps to gather information on how to make healers more needed in all content.
Just because it's this way now absolutely doesn't mean it can't or won't change in the future.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/431237/shields-do-not-make-healers-useless-and-why-they-should-not-be-nerfed
This is just one idea, that comes from Wrobel, about changes to make healers needed.
And while I strongly disagree shields are the answer, Zos is looking to change things to lessen the dps "burn all the things" mentality players have.
Edit to add: Not just sorc shields, understand, but shields tanks use as well, such as bone wall, defensive posture, spell wall, and every shield known in the game.Edited by Kel on September 4, 2018 4:11AM1 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »
OTOH, why is that necessarily a problem? "Healers in ESO are more about supporting the group with unique (de)buffs*, less about giving health back" seems rather fine.
* I'm not saying that this is the case at the moment. It's (often) not. But it's imho more important to ask how healers could be more useful, not only or necessarily healing.Survive, taunt, pack & debuff (in order of importance) enough to ditch healer for a 3rd dps to burn thing easierTank should not be concerned with direct DPS, they do indirect DPS by debuffing the enemies and buffing their allies.
If they do a good job of this, then the DPS who have optimized their damage can get even more out of their builds.
I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.
@Tasear
This is how healing is looked at currently in the game by players.
Don't exactly know why healers are brought up in a tank thread, but thought as healer class rep, it's important for you to see this issue.
Yeah, for dungeons though, and only certain ones.
For trials, you won't see anyone saying they can "heal themselves just fine". They would cry if there was no healer.
Because there was a discussion in the healer discord about how to make healing relevant in all content, not just trials.
Overworld, dungeons, and trials.
The responses I posted give insight into how healing is seen, so relevant to the healer rep who is in communication with the development team.
Healers aren't meant to be bards, throwing out buffs and debuffs, at least, not before healing. That's why it's called being a healer. As of now, it's backwards.
That's a problem, and one that the dev team (according to the class rep) also sees as a problem.
unless we're doing hard modes we take a magblade with spc, refreshing path and funnel health instead of a "healer" these days.
the sad fact is that having a dedicated healer over heals the group for 95% of the content. It's not just not required, it's a detriment.
You (dps mains) constantly say that "majority of vet dungeons doesn't require tank or/and heal" but somehow weak tank or heal usually make dungeon run much longer, tedious and difficult and if they are fake it just ends up kicking or cp780 fake escapes by himself with words "i'm tired of noobs"..
And then normal, non-hybrid, noob, cp300 tank or healer comes to the rescue and boss which you previously struggled to take to 50% of health 5 times, that boss is dealt within minute. But of course tank and heal are just "supports of limited use" they should be semi-dps like OP asked.
I'll just leave this here shall i?Anyone who says tanks should DPS is just a bad DPS and is looking for someone to blame.
That said, if you're pugging as a tank you 100% want to have a backup set of gear you can swap to just in case you've got one of those 10k group dps. You can literally double the group dps doing this.
Personally I would never take my trials tank into a pug. Sure, i'll never die, but that pug might take 2 hours. I use a dps specc'd stam sorc tank (knight errant, seventh legion, tremor scale) for any content where I don't know the dps just in case things go badly.
Mate, I main tank.4 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
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OTOH, why is that necessarily a problem? "Healers in ESO are more about supporting the group with unique (de)buffs*, less about giving health back" seems rather fine.
* I'm not saying that this is the case at the moment. It's (often) not. But it's imho more important to ask how healers could be more useful, not only or necessarily healing.Survive, taunt, pack & debuff (in order of importance) enough to ditch healer for a 3rd dps to burn thing easierTank should not be concerned with direct DPS, they do indirect DPS by debuffing the enemies and buffing their allies.
If they do a good job of this, then the DPS who have optimized their damage can get even more out of their builds.
I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.
@Tasear
This is how healing is looked at currently in the game by players.
Don't exactly know why healers are brought up in a tank thread, but thought as healer class rep, it's important for you to see this issue.
Yeah, for dungeons though, and only certain ones.
For trials, you won't see anyone saying they can "heal themselves just fine". They would cry if there was no healer.
Because there was a discussion in the healer discord about how to make healing relevant in all content, not just trials.
Overworld, dungeons, and trials.
The responses I posted give insight into how healing is seen, so relevant to the healer rep who is in communication with the development team.
Healers aren't meant to be bards, throwing out buffs and debuffs, at least, not before healing. That's why it's called being a healer. As of now, it's backwards.
That's a problem, and one that the dev team (according to the class rep) also sees as a problem.
unless we're doing hard modes we take a magblade with spc, refreshing path and funnel health instead of a "healer" these days.
the sad fact is that having a dedicated healer over heals the group for 95% of the content. It's not just not required, it's a detriment.
And this is exactly why Zos asked class reps to gather information on how to make healers more needed in all content.
Just because it's this way now absolutely doesn't mean it can't or won't change in the future.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/431237/shields-do-not-make-healers-useless-and-why-they-should-not-be-nerfed
This is just one idea, that comes from Wrobel, about changes to make healers needed.
And while I strongly disagree shields are the answer, Zos is looking to change things to lessen the dps "burn all the things" mentality players have.
The issue is self / off heals are too easy and too strong. You can solo vet dungeons on a sorc with surge + shields or vigor. Look at stormfist in Tempest Island. His "burn" phase does less dps than surge provides in hps on a stamsorc. Mag blades are the biggest offender by far as funnel health and refreshing path is enough to keep the dps alive while the tank self sustains with green dragon blood or vigor. Unless the boss mechanics require perma-blocking like blood root forge, then it's not difficult for a tank to keep themselves alive as well as sustain resources.
They need to dramatically increase the damage taken passively in dungeons. go back to stormfist. His execute pulses, on vet, should be taking a 3rd of the dps's health after mitigation. It should Require stacking into healing springs to survive.Same for the lamia boss in Arx. The first time I realised you can just crit surge heal through the shadow scream mechanic I literally laughed out loud at the ridiculousness of it all.
The base game vet dungeons are a joke right now.
It's not "elitist" of "meta gaming" to point out that the self heals currently out heal most dungeon mechanics that are not one shots with or without shields. It's just MATHS.0 -
MezSoul ShrivenLots of good responses here, just adding my $0.02 since I main a templar tank that mostly pug 4-men dungeons : not all tanks are created equal, not all have a strong tool kit for rounding up trash. But whatever flavor of tank you are I expect a good tank to provide some group utility beyond tanking. Could be buff/debuff/chain adds/heal/dps.
As a templar tank I can add a lot of group healing while tanking. I expect a NB or sorc tank to be able to add a little dps.Edited by Mez on September 4, 2018 4:45AM2 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Survive, taunt, pack & debuff (in order of importance) enough to ditch healer for a 3rd dps to burn thing easierTank should not be concerned with direct DPS, they do indirect DPS by debuffing the enemies and buffing their allies.
If they do a good job of this, then the DPS who have optimized their damage can get even more out of their builds.
I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.
@Tasear
This is how healing is looked at currently in the game by players.
Don't exactly know why healers are brought up in a tank thread, but thought as healer class rep, it's important for you to see this issue.They can, hell I ran a vet dungeon on my tank i believe it was Tempest island, and my tank wears plague doctor and necropotence on a argonian templar, and i was helping out alot with tanking and dps.
Necropotence on a templar?0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I only expect buffs, debuffs and ofcourse taunts from a tank. When I, as a DD, expect DPS from the tank, then I am not doing my job properly.2 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »Survive, taunt, pack & debuff (in order of importance) enough to ditch healer for a 3rd dps to burn thing easierTank should not be concerned with direct DPS, they do indirect DPS by debuffing the enemies and buffing their allies.
If they do a good job of this, then the DPS who have optimized their damage can get even more out of their builds.
I feel the same way about healers. Healing is secondary to buffing, most players can heal themselves just fine. Only a few builds are in desperate need of a pocket healer.
@Tasear
This is how healing is looked at currently in the game by players.
Don't exactly know why healers are brought up in a tank thread, but thought as healer class rep, it's important for you to see this issue.They can, hell I ran a vet dungeon on my tank i believe it was Tempest island, and my tank wears plague doctor and necropotence on a argonian templar, and i was helping out alot with tanking and dps.
Necropotence on a templar?
Because Argonians count as combat pets.#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom6 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Healers aren't meant to be bards, throwing out buffs and debuffs, at least, not before healing. That's why it's called being a healer. As of now, it's backwards.
That is just traditional terminology, borrowed from other games where the Holy Trinity was established. No one prevents ZOS from implementing it in other ways, as long as there's a need for a third class.
I'm not saying that they should but desperately trying to bolster healing just because it's the traditional name of the class, is restrictive.
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Everyone being able to heal themselves is a somewhat logical result of the "play as you like" philosophy: As long as they don't restrict classes to certain roles, there will be ways to heal yourself because a nightblade or DK healer has to be somewhat viable. Maybe not for high-level endgame but for most content. And no-one prevents DDs from slotting some ability that belongs to the healing part of their class.
And the other things about the base-game dungeons is that they suffer from severe power-creep. That won't be solved unless they overhaul those dungeons themselves, instead of the players' abilities.0 -
LordDov✭✭well in some of the vet craglorn trials , most offtanks i know including me swap to a dps setup because their tanking skills are not needed , considering you can do vaa hm and vhr hm without an offtank you can just replace the tank with another dd. i know some end game tanks that have bow back bars in trial like vmol hm even for extra dps.PC EU - CP 900+ All trials HM
LordDov DKtank Flawless Conqueror , Voice of Reason , Dro'mathra Destroyer , Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor and Bringer of Light
DovLord Magblade Flawless Conqueror , Voice of Reason , Dro'mathra Destroyer and Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor
Woman of Darker Desires StamDK Flawless Conqueror , Dro'mathra Destroyer and Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor1 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭any resources Tank is spending on DPS could go to debuff/buff, survival, and taunting.
I only ONLY do any DPS when other if not both of the DPS are down.
Speaking as a Tank, I am doing plenty of damage by debuffing the enemy. My concern is to help DPS do their job, not do their job for them.0 -
ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There's a reason Tank and DPS are two separate roles.CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WuffyCerulei wrote: »Recently I saw a conversation in zone chat about how pve tanks should have a dps backbar to burn through hard mode dungeons. I think they were talking about base-game dungeons. But it was an interesting take on that.
I personally only expect the tank to, at the very least, hold agro of the boss and not die to its attacks. Optimally, they should hold agro, debuff, and position the boss or bosses at the best spot. I only expect the first when it comes to pug tanks, as you truly don't know what you're getting with them. However, when it comes to running with good tanks and especially vet trials, they need to do more than that. I don't expect them to dps as they need those resources to agro, debuff, heal/buff themselves, pull adds in, and more. Dropping dots and whatnot could eat up a resource they need. However, if the tank can do all that, and they want to run a skill that does damage like blockade or executioner(with the AS greatsword), I won't complain.
What do you guys expect your pve tanks to do? If you're a tank, what do you think your role encompasses?
It's always nice when a tank can add more damage or healing to the mix, but I don't "expect" it.
All I expect from tanks is that they keep most of the aggro and don't let bosses tear into me. Having a good defense is always a plus as well. If they can manage those I'm a satisfied customer.0 -
Kel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Healers aren't meant to be bards, throwing out buffs and debuffs, at least, not before healing. That's why it's called being a healer. As of now, it's backwards.
That is just traditional terminology, borrowed from other games where the Holy Trinity was established. No one prevents ZOS from implementing it in other ways, as long as there's a need for a third class.
I'm not saying that they should but desperately trying to bolster healing just because it's the traditional name of the class, is restrictive.
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Everyone being able to heal themselves is a somewhat logical result of the "play as you like" philosophy: As long as they don't restrict classes to certain roles, there will be ways to heal yourself because a nightblade or DK healer has to be somewhat viable. Maybe not for high-level endgame but for most content. And no-one prevents DDs from slotting some ability that belongs to the healing part of their class.
And the other things about the base-game dungeons is that they suffer from severe power-creep. That won't be solved unless they overhaul those dungeons themselves, instead of the players' abilities.
I agree with this. Futher, think of how much harder content like vMA now becomes without self healing or strong shields.
It's definitely a situation where Zos has painted themselves in a corner when it comes to healing. Honestly I'm not sure what can be feasibly done to improve it, but traditional or not, they are looking at ways to move in that direction.
That's all I'm saying here.0 -
MerlinPendragon✭✭✭✭A tank should anchor mobs and boss target, debuff with crusher, and be able to do about 10 to 15% of damage. Do that and you're ahead of the curve._____________________________________
Merlin Pendragon - Uther Pendragon - The Lady of the Lake - Sir Lancelot0 -
HeroOfNone✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tanks have 3 primary roles in my opinion
1. Hold aggro on most dangerous mobs
2. Survive and maintain yourself
3. Mitigate damage to the group
Anything beyond that is extra, good to do, but not your priority. Typically tanks will have abilities to buff DPS, like war horn, DK earthen heart abilities, etc. To aid DPS. Buffing them tends to generate more DPS than much of what a tank can do. On top of this, many classes don't have executes, and using stamina based executes will murder stamina, causing tanks to lose taunt or block at crucial points if they aren't careful. You can choose any way to play a tank really, but focus on your priorities.Edited by HeroOfNone on September 4, 2018 1:44PM1 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Next tank set has a 5 piece of-
5 pieces- equip a back backpack with 3 seats.
Gives a synergie that people can click to hop on a seat and relax.Edited by Guppet on September 4, 2018 3:53PM1 -
Datolite✭✭✭✭✭I have two builds I switch between on my main tank:
1: Torug's/Ebon/Lord Warden with a focus on survivability and debuff, and some shields/ heals just in case I have to carry the group through tough fights (yay pug groups).
2: Dragon/Seventh/Tremor or Bloodspawn with a focus on DPS and and ult regen for burning through normal or base game vet dungeons.
The thing is, don't expect a ton of DPS. My job is still to debuff and protect your butts. Talk to the DDs if the going is too slow.1 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
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The issue with healing is that there are too many OHKO mechanics in the vet content, especially HM thus making smaller healing spells like hots redundant. If you want healer to be true healer, you should tone down the OHKO mechanics and replace them with heavy sustain damage. Scalecaller peak is a fine example for this. The winter phase is such a heavy sustain damage. And the poison is a OHKO instead. For example, remove the OHKO mechanic from the poison and replace it with a heavy dot which forces the healer to dish out massive healing for keeping the victim alive.Healers aren't meant to be bards, throwing out buffs and debuffs, at least, not before healing. That's why it's called being a healer. As of now, it's backwards.
That is just traditional terminology, borrowed from other games where the Holy Trinity was established. No one prevents ZOS from implementing it in other ways, as long as there's a need for a third class.
I'm not saying that they should but desperately trying to bolster healing just because it's the traditional name of the class, is restrictive.
---
Everyone being able to heal themselves is a somewhat logical result of the "play as you like" philosophy: As long as they don't restrict classes to certain roles, there will be ways to heal yourself because a nightblade or DK healer has to be somewhat viable. Maybe not for high-level endgame but for most content. And no-one prevents DDs from slotting some ability that belongs to the healing part of their class.
And the other things about the base-game dungeons is that they suffer from severe power-creep. That won't be solved unless they overhaul those dungeons themselves, instead of the players' abilities.
I agree with this. Futher, think of how much harder content like vMA now becomes without self healing or strong shields.
It's definitely a situation where Zos has painted themselves in a corner when it comes to healing. Honestly I'm not sure what can be feasibly done to improve it, but traditional or not, they are looking at ways to move in that direction.
That's all I'm saying here.2 -
Azuramoonstar✭✭✭✭I'm just coming from ff14, and in ff14 they want tanks to mainly dps. If you played tank on tank stance you are "doing it wrong" even if tank stance is the only one you got. I find it odd the opposite is true here and ppl want the traditional heavy armored knight with sword and board. Even D and D had multifaceted tanks.
In ff14 my man tank was warrior it was a two handed axe job, that was basically kratos. You build up your rage then release it in powerful attacks.
in ESO there are more open ended type of tanks as any class can wear any armor and use any weapon. I personally play an kahjiit warden, with heavy armor and an ice staff. Atm i'm just leveling up my weapon, and class trees before picking a build.
for general, I think tanks should have good offence AND defense. As a tank you need to be the biggest threat, you need to be the brick wall to soak your teams damage, you should basically be the groups leader, the first to fight and last to leave. Leading a group doesn't mean you call all the shot, but that you are in front of your team, as you walk the dungeons.Long time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
Long time Elder scrolls player: Xbox launch morrowind.
Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.0 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I personally expect MY tanks (i.e. my own tanking characters) to carry DPS gear loadouts so that I can burn through content solo or do random normals (while still holding boss aggro) or even just helping out in dungeon runs with competent groups that don't really need a full tank.
When grouped with a tank, either a friend or via dungeon finder, I don't expect anything besides "hold aggro." Anything beyond that is gravy.Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub1 -
Samsgaard✭✭✭There's no single answer to the question, because the answer depends on the content; the tank's class; and whether the player is actually playing the class (as opposed to mostly playing a gear set & non-class skill loadout). Also, can the player afford to carry multiple well-improved gear sets; and does the player have the patience (and does the group give him/her time) to swap sets between fights.
With regard to non-DLC dungeons, run on vet/hm, if you truly tank the whole way:
1) Outside of special situations, my DK tank (flame tank) usually has puncture, slash, obsidian shield, talons, grip, and warhorn on the front bar and molten weapons, spiked armor, elemental blockade, GDB, engulfing flames, and magma armor on the back bar. I have no idea what DPS this brings, but I'm sure it's not a lot. I wouldn't dream of trying to solo a vet dungeon with this build. Probably not even a normal dungeon. Heck, it's not even much fun to do normal overland stuff with this build. But it's rock-solid for tanking, and there's nothing I'd sacrifice for the sake of trying to pull a little more DPS.
2) In contrast, I would say a sorc tank (at least, the shock tank variety) should bring the DPS because (a) all the tools are there, and (b) the sorc doesn't offer much in the way of group utility, so it might as well help melt things directly. While still being in full tanking build, a shock tank can quickly clear the path to the first boss, solo, while the rest of the group is getting coffee or clearing inventory.
3) I'm finding warden tank (particularly, ice tank) in full tanking build to be a notch or two up from DK in terms of DPS but several notches short of a shock tank. I can't think of anything I'd change to boost DPS that wouldn't compromise the basic playstyle. I suppose you could go with more destro skills than ice blockade, but I find that gripping shards, arctic wind, shimmering shield, frozen devices, and heavy/light attacks take up all my spare time between taunts, blocks, and refreshing self-buffs.
4) NB tank . . . outside of sap-spamming, I'm finding it hard to make an impression here, DPS-wise. That's even with the War Maiden set equipped to buff magic damage. And whereas shock and ice tanks can almost passively do damage constantly with AOE DoTs, sap-spamming requires you to forego crowd control, blocking, heavy attacking, taunting, etc. I'd say the better focus of the NB tank is to back up the healer (or even make it unnecessary to have a separate healer). Indeed, I'll be swapping SPC in for War Maiden, once I have the right pieces.
5) Templar tank . . . what can I say? Templars really have only one non-ultimate skill that's for tanking (restoring focus), so by necessity, a templar tank is fundamentally a DD or a healer. Consequently, I'd say a templar tank better bring the DPS or the heals to justify his presence. (Although I tell myself that queue times for DPS are so long, I'm doing people a favor by queuing as a tank even with my templar, though the previous groups that got my other tanks got better deals.)Edited by Samsgaard on September 4, 2018 9:12PM0 -
Krayl✭✭✭✭✭Tanks hold aggro, buff, debuff, position bosses and mobs in ideal locations. I expect they've put some effort into learning mechanics and optimizing their gear to help the team.
On my tank I carry livewire and run that with a crusher lightnign staff back bar, with blockade and engulfing flames and on front bar I have a fire enchant on the sword and burning embers. I pair this up with an ilambris set. basically using the livewire and blockade and engulf along with ilambris procs from the fire damage to add some dps while also adding more concuss/off balance/fire vuln for the group. Obviously the usefulness of this deepends on what the rest of your group looks like and it's not huge single target dps, but it is a decent dps improvement by about 8k over a standard tank set, depending on how often you're heavy attacking with lightning staff.0 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There's no single answer to the question, because the answer depends on the content; the tank's class; and whether the player is actually playing the class (as opposed to mostly playing a gear set & non-class skill loadout). Also, can the player afford to carry multiple well-improved gear sets; and does the player have the patience (and does the group give him/her time) to swap sets between fights.
With regard to non-DLC dungeons, run on vet/hm, if you truly tank the whole way:
1) Outside of special situations, my DK tank (flame tank) usually has puncture, slash, obsidian shield, talons, grip, and warhorn on the front bar and molten weapons, spiked armor, elemental blockade, GDB, engulfing flames, and magma armor on the back bar. I have no idea what DPS this brings, but I'm sure it's not a lot. I wouldn't dream of trying to solo a vet dungeon with this build. Probably not even a normal dungeon. Heck, it's not even much fun to do normal overland stuff with this build. But it's rock-solid for tanking, and there's nothing I'd sacrifice for the sake of trying to pull a little more DPS.
2) In contrast, I would say a sorc tank (at least, the shock tank variety) should bring the DPS because (a) all the tools are there, and (b) the sorc doesn't offer much in the way of group utility, so it might as well help melt things directly. While still being in full tanking build, a shock tank can quickly clear the path to the first boss, solo, while the rest of the group is getting coffee or clearing inventory.
3) I'm finding warden tank (particularly, ice tank) in full tanking build to be a notch or two up from DK in terms of DPS but several notches short of a shock tank. I can't think of anything I'd change to boost DPS that wouldn't compromise the basic playstyle. I suppose you could go with more destro skills than ice blockade, but I find that gripping shards, arctic wind, shimmering shield, frozen devices, and heavy/light attacks take up all my spare time between taunts, blocks, and refreshing self-buffs.
4) NB tank . . . outside of sap-spamming, I'm finding it hard to make an impression here, DPS-wise. That's even with the War Maiden set equipped to buff magic damage. And whereas shock and ice tanks can almost passively do damage constantly with AOE DoTs, sap-spamming requires you to forego crowd control, blocking, heavy attacking, taunting, etc. I'd say the better focus of the NB tank is to back up the healer (or even make it unnecessary to have a separate healer). Indeed, I'll be swapping SPC in for War Maiden, once I have the right pieces.
5) Templar tank . . . what can I say? Templars really have only one non-ultimate skill that's for tanking (restoring focus), so by necessity, a templar tank is fundamentally a DD or a healer. Consequently, I'd say a templar tank better bring the DPS or the heals to justify his presence. (Although I tell myself that queue times for DPS are so long, I'm doing people a favor by queuing as a tank even with my templar, though the previous groups that got my other tanks got better deals.)
Ah I was going to agree with everything right up to 5. Templar tanks are not just weak healers. Cmon man, they’re paladins. Paladins bro. Right now they may be trash knights but you’ll see, they’ll rise to the top one day (I made a Stamplar Tank in anticipation of it).
Saptanks were a good substitute for not having a real healer. I know they still exist, I just can’t bring myself to do it anymore, too demoralized.
I don’t play dk tank because it puts me to sleep. I have one, fully kitted out and ready to rumble, but he’s just a bank now. Tanking on dk is so vanilla.
Warden Tank. Yes lawd geebus. I’m having so much fun as a warden Tank. Right now I’m double barred s&b but I’m looking into a lightning staff back bar. He’s everything I’ve always wanted, and a pet class when I’m solo, skipping through the forest shooting arrows with wind in my hair.
Mostly I agree with your assessment. A sorcerer tank needs to have some damage numbers because what it lacks in group utility it makes up in frying mobs. (I have one of those too, I just didn’t like it).Edited by max_only on September 4, 2018 10:49PM#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom0 -
Neyane✭✭✭✭Taunts, buffs, cc, self heal... comes before damage. If my tank does some damage? That's cool, we'll get through this quicker. If they don't but have the required skills? Cool too. If they are not a proper tank and only do damage meaning that the boss is running all over the place? Not cool.
I don't expect my tank to deal damage but if they do it's an added bonus.The most important thing in life is enjoying yourself.810+, love trials and dungeons, achievement hunter ♥Stormproof on 9 characters and more to come~ Flawless on MagSorc & MagPlar ♥1
