Bleeds Are Overpowered

Chilly-McFreeze · August 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

[/list]

ak_pvp wrote: »

The simplest fix to to just allow resists to mitigate them and change the bleed dmg accordingly if it becomes too weak. No, your clutch dot should not, with no downsides, ignore a mechanic just because you want it to. It gives nothing up for its immense strength.

An whilst it might be better in CP its still too strong comparably, It is however a guaranteed run or die in noCP.

The simpliest fix ?

What you said is a shame.

Bleeds are *** light armor shield too, buffing bleed and make it overall less efficient vs the build they are supposed to counter is the most JOKE I heard.

The true bleed fix is to just nerf the damage.

I don't know why you think that though. Bleeds themselves are only med strength compared to something like venomous claw or even embers if fully pen'd. Their benefit and overpowering aspect is that they ignore resists.

For you, the problem isn't bleeds themselves, like it is for most DKs, its just dot stacking, if you wanted to add validity to your point you could mention the ease of access and overall strength (not having a down side for its resist ignore)
The problem with lowering their strength directly means it affects PvE too.

@Chilly-McFreeze
You were saying it won't change because I want it to, and yeah that is fair. But it makes more sense for ZOS to change bleeds to be more like normal dots with their theme of normalization than it does to keep them obviously overtuned compared to others. They won't change the full pen'd damage as I said because that affects PvE

As a bleed user I'd say fair enough. As a heavy armor Tank I'd say go for it. As a shield user I'd say please no.
With a view on how bleed affects shields builds and high mitigation builds now, what they are meant to counter, and what they would do then, I don't think that would be the way to go.

Feanor · August 2018

The only thing I know is that bleeds are really disgusting in noCP, especially on stamSorcs...

Mannix1958 · August 2018

It seems like every time I look at the forums...its nothing but this is overpowered...that needs to be nerfed...etc. I must be playing a different game...I have been having a great experience even though every change seems to reduce my options due to others crying for balance.

Crixus8000 · August 2018

Xsorus wrote: »

Again... you have classes that can instant wipe large groups with 3 skills and you guys are talking about bleeds

How ? A stamden lining up sub assault into db then spin2win or reverse slice ? Sure but that means 2 things. The players dying to that have very, very weak defences, and are lacking in skill so I see no issue with it. The counter to that ? Simply hold block before the sub asault goes off. The counter to bleed ? Stack an insane amount of hots so that amost no other build can kill you...and even then the highest bleed builds will still be able to.

Crixus8000 · August 2018

Feanor wrote: »

The only thing I know is that bleeds are really disgusting in noCP, especially on stamSorcs...

Bleeds work well for stamsorcs and stamblades the most. Stamplars need them. But stamblades can use them better than stamsorcs imo because of 28% extra damage and a built in class major defile. The difference between other classes using bleeds and a stamblade using bleeds is very noticable.

DarkAedin · August 2018

Is this still going?
U guis still havent l2p yet?

Summerset meta has a ton of dmg, like @Minno said, u need crit resist, like i said, u need hots going and multiple heals on your bar.

The other issue i see u guis having is the stacking of dots via passives and 2 weapon types and multiple players bleeding u out.
So:
1) as for weapon types: u see stam dps using 1 axe in pve and at least 1 if not 3 axes in pvp. U see this as axes being overpowered, but in reality, swords are very underwhelming unless ur a stamden healer and daggers are useless in pvp, maces are useless in a good pve group and in pvp against shielded targets (pc na vivec has a high amount of sorcs and our bgs are full if sorcs) . In the meantime, fire staff does a dot, and puts burning on the target, making take more incoming dmg for all sources and user does 8% more dmg single target FROM RANGE. Electric staff sets u offballanced for anyone else hitting that target FROM RANGE, and ice potentially maims u and can do 2 types of cc FROM RANGE.
So what im seeing here is that every destro staff type outdoes any melee weapon type via passives. Ur go to destro staves also buff ALL incoming dmg to the target, where dw and 2h are selfish and only apply to themselves and not outside sources
Btw, u can use swift too, not just stam toons.

2) since year 1, zos started out with a really strong 1vX, but over the years have nerfed the ever loving *** out of it and buffed Xv1, the new solo in cyro is 4-6man, even 2 really talented players will die now to the zerg outside of a few good fights (where we are turtling in high defense builds and timing ultis and utilizing terrain.

Also, bleeds are the only dot for melee stam (barring bow) and not one of us has a class dot that scales off stam except for stamsorcs, which is one of the reasons they excell with bleeds, bc of dot stacking whilst also having pressure via direct dmg.

Srsly, this thread is dissapointing. Play more then 1 class, see the differences.
Change things up, try different builds,create ur own anti meta instead of coming to the forums and crying over A WEAK DOT.
I say weak bc my MAGICA WARDEN has a class dot that does more dmg FROM RANGE even against high resist targets!!!

and i also have a magsorc that will kill ANYONE i 3-5 seconds bc of haunting curse and class mechanics.

My stamden and stamplar can dbos shalks/jabs/ finisher ppl to death in seconds, before bleeds even do any work.

This is an l2p issue, srsly, time to look inward and realize that. SMH

HankTwo · September 2018

DarkAedin wrote: »

1) as for weapon types: u see stam dps using 1 axe in pve and at least 1 if not 3 axes in pvp. U see this as axes being overpowered, but in reality, swords are very underwhelming unless ur a stamden healer and daggers are useless in pvp, maces are useless in a good pve group and in pvp against shielded targets (pc na vivec has a high amount of sorcs and our bgs are full if sorcs) . In the meantime, fire staff does a dot, and puts burning on the target, making take more incoming dmg for all sources and user does 8% more dmg single target FROM RANGE. Electric staff sets u offballanced for anyone else hitting that target FROM RANGE, and ice potentially maims u and can do 2 types of cc FROM RANGE.

Hmmm, so only a specific type of melee weapons is good in PvP (axes), while one is very underwhelming (swords), another one is useless (daggers) and a third option is situationally useless (maces)? Seems like the axe bonus is performing much stronger than the other ones then. If you see this as underperformance of the other options or as overperformance of axes is a question of perspective. I don’t melt under the pressure of destro staff users for example. Same goes for sword, axe and dagger users (in contrast to axe bleed builds).

DarkAedin wrote: »

Also, bleeds are the only dot for melee stam (barring bow) and not one of us has a class dot that scales off stam except for stamsorcs, which is one of the reasons they excell with bleeds, bc of dot stacking whilst also having pressure via direct dmg.

Never heard of stam DK, have you?

DarkAedin wrote: »

I say weak bc my MAGICA WARDEN has a class dot that does more dmg FROM RANGE even against high resist targets!!!
and i also have a magsorc that will kill ANYONE i 3-5 seconds bc of haunting curse and class mechanics.
My stamden and stamplar can dbos shalks/jabs/ finisher ppl to death in seconds, before bleeds even do any work.

This is basically just bragging now. And no, you can’t kill every other player as a magsorc in under 5 seconds. Your stamdem and stamplar burst combos can additionally be countered by blocking.

Adenoma · September 2018

I don’t see a lot of stamden healers, but I think that your burst heal bar is best served with powered daggers. Hardly useless to get a huge crit buff that stacks so pleasantly with heal modifiers.

Maces are excellent in PvP. Just don’t stack things like CP.

Swords are strong for certain uses like burst classes/builds. They’re relevant for magicka builds as well.

I don’t feel that bleeds are super overwhelming in CP environments. Like any proc they’re quite strong in no-CP.

A lot of this thread is some strong, vocal players and we’ve identified a common thread of them as magicka DKs. MagDK is a class that has few adequate HOTs that can suppress DOT damage, instead they have fairly strong burst healing options. This is more of a healing design problem than a damage problem, IMO, and a sign that DKs need a little more self-healing diversity so that they can build for HOTs other than just mutagen/rapid regeneration. Things like burning embers, inhale, and coagulating DB are poor means of dealing with sustained damage.

DarkAedin · September 2018

@HankTwo
Ur right, i forgot about stam dk.

The weapon types: u missed the point, melee weapons other then axes are subpar in both pve and pvp and we need to crutch on axes bc of how underwhelming our dps is without bleeds.

As for the last part where u think im gloating, im not, im not the only person who is doing the above mentioned combos, its just the reality of the situation.
Ur right that u can block the combos i said, but i can also wait for ur defenses to drop to unleash and still get my combo off and kill u without the assistance of bleeds

DarkAedin · September 2018

Adenoma wrote: »

I don’t see a lot of stamden healers, but I think that your burst heal bar is best served with powered daggers. Hardly useless to get a huge crit buff that stacks so pleasantly with heal modifiers.

Maces are excellent in PvP. Just don’t stack things like CP.

Swords are strong for certain uses like burst classes/builds. They’re relevant for magicka builds as well.

I don’t feel that bleeds are super overwhelming in CP environments. Like any proc they’re quite strong in no-CP.

A lot of this thread is some strong, vocal players and we’ve identified a common thread of them as magicka DKs. MagDK is a class that has few adequate HOTs that can suppress DOT damage, instead they have fairly strong burst healing options. This is more of a healing design problem than a damage problem, IMO, and a sign that DKs need a little more self-healing diversity so that they can build for HOTs other than just mutagen/rapid regeneration. Things like burning embers, inhale, and coagulating DB are poor means of dealing with sustained damage.

U really feel like dk doesnt have enough healing after summerset patch?? Really????

HankTwo · September 2018

@DarkAedin

I see your point and it implies that swords and daggers (and to a degree maces as well) are in need of buffs.

I can't speak for PvE. However, in case of PvP I don't see destro staffs as inherently stronger compared to dual wield or 2h. The only builds that I have no hope of surviving against in a 1v1 are good bleed builds (usually NB, sometimes stam sorc). I was fine with that in the past, since I thought that it was a specific counter to heavy armor builds like mine that use snb. But since I've heard that many other builds have problems with bleeds too (for example mag sorcs, while bleeds should be kinda weak against shields), I'm doubting the downsides of building for bleed damage. If those builds are strong against most other builds and only weak against templars, then they sacrifice very little. However, my experience comes mostly from noCP, so this could also be a noCP/CP balancing issue as some have indicated.

DarkAedin · September 2018

@HankTwo
Imho the sorc issue with bleeds is directly due to them crutching on bubble stacking and not using hots. Most sorcs dont slot rr/mutagen, and slot ward only. In my personal experience in bgs (na pc), they also rarely slot/use resto ulti either.

Feanor · September 2018

@DarkAedin

Rapid Regen/Mutagen is just way to unreliable. If you have other players around you then it takes several casts until you may or may not get the HoT. Besides, a 800ish HoT isn’t going to save you anyway.

Resto Ult is awesome. The sacrifice for that 5 seconds of rejsyibe invulnerability is huge though - you don’t get to use an offensive ultimate which is often crucial for Sorc burst to even get close to a kill.

DarkAedin · September 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@DarkAedin

Rapid Regen/Mutagen is just way to unreliable. If you have other players around you then it takes several casts until you may or may not get the HoT. Besides, a 800ish HoT isn’t going to save you anyway.

Resto Ult is awesome. The sacrifice for that 5 seconds of rejsyibe invulnerability is huge though - you don’t get to use an offensive ultimate which is often crucial for Sorc burst to even get close to a kill.

In bgs it takes 2 casts max, IF all ur teammates are around u.
On my sorc in spinner/shackle, it crits for around 2.5k, rr's quicker healing also overpowers the bleed bc it tics more often.

That 800.... u must mean backbarring vma resto for that awesome regen proc.

My magsorc doesnt even have meteor unlocked, and even after the recent nerf to the stun, im still not having issues popping ppl within the 5s, sorc is rediculously overpowered

Adenoma · September 2018

@DarkAedin , I don’t think you really read what I said. I said DKs don’t have enough HOTs and that’s why magDK is having trouble with DOTs. I’m not advocating for more heals for magDK - I’m saying that these complaints are emblematic of a lack of variety for magDK heals.

If you want to have reasonable discussion, don’t get all bent out of shape and emphasize tangents and straw men arguments.

MrDenimChicken · September 2018

Aztlan wrote: »

If you nerf Rend, there will be little reason to run duel wield in PvP, outside of a few people running Shrouded Daggers or Blade Cloak. Rend is the best skill in the duel wield kit, for both PvE and PvP. Maybe you should be calling for buffs to your healing skills.

Spin-to-win is a fantastic skill. It's undodgeable, does good dmg, and can reveal nbs since it has a large radius. Rend is probably overall better, especially with master's dw, but spin-to-win is a terrific skill, as evidenced by the large number of players using it.

DarkAedin · September 2018

Adenoma wrote: »

@DarkAedin , I don’t think you really read what I said. I said DKs don’t have enough HOTs and that’s why magDK is having trouble with DOTs. I’m not advocating for more heals for magDK - I’m saying that these complaints are emblematic of a lack of variety for magDK heals.

If you want to have reasonable discussion, don’t get all bent out of shape and emphasize tangents and straw men arguments.

Sounds more like mag dks not wanting to slot resto staff

Adenoma · September 2018

@DarkAedin , it’s been discussed a few times, but rapids regen or mutagen isn’t a reliable means of a self-targeted HOT.

IZZEFlameLash · September 2018

DarkAedin wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

@DarkAedin , I don’t think you really read what I said. I said DKs don’t have enough HOTs and that’s why magDK is having trouble with DOTs. I’m not advocating for more heals for magDK - I’m saying that these complaints are emblematic of a lack of variety for magDK heals.

If you want to have reasonable discussion, don’t get all bent out of shape and emphasize tangents and straw men arguments.

Sounds more like mag dks not wanting to slot resto staff

This again. Ugh. Come back to me when heals are guaranteed for the caster.

DarkAedin · September 2018

Adenoma wrote: »

@DarkAedin , it’s been discussed a few times, but rapids regen or mutagen isn’t a reliable means of a self-targeted HOT.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

DarkAedin wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

@DarkAedin , I don’t think you really read what I said. I said DKs don’t have enough HOTs and that’s why magDK is having trouble with DOTs. I’m not advocating for more heals for magDK - I’m saying that these complaints are emblematic of a lack of variety for magDK heals.

If you want to have reasonable discussion, don’t get all bent out of shape and emphasize tangents and straw men arguments.

Sounds more like mag dks not wanting to slot resto staff

This again. Ugh. Come back to me when heals are guaranteed for the caster.

Im never really around more then 0-6 friendly players, so not only do i not have this issue, but shame on u for using zerg surfing as a defense.

Adenoma · September 2018

@DarkAedin , playing around 0-6 friendly players is a range at which mutagen/rapid regen will not target yourself reliably.

Don’t justify poor arguments with ad hominems. It doesn’t prove a point and isn’t helpful to the discussion.

IZZEFlameLash · September 2018

DarkAedin wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

@DarkAedin , it’s been discussed a few times, but rapids regen or mutagen isn’t a reliable means of a self-targeted HOT.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

DarkAedin wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

@DarkAedin , I don’t think you really read what I said. I said DKs don’t have enough HOTs and that’s why magDK is having trouble with DOTs. I’m not advocating for more heals for magDK - I’m saying that these complaints are emblematic of a lack of variety for magDK heals.

If you want to have reasonable discussion, don’t get all bent out of shape and emphasize tangents and straw men arguments.

Sounds more like mag dks not wanting to slot resto staff

This again. Ugh. Come back to me when heals are guaranteed for the caster.

Im never really around more then 0-6 friendly players, so not only do i not have this issue, but shame on u for using zerg surfing as a defense.

I mean, you don't have stealth blades taking away your heals because they run like 16k health or something? Good for you.

Adenoma wrote: »

@DarkAedin , playing around 0-6 friendly players is a range at which mutagen/rapid regen will not target yourself reliably.

Don’t justify poor arguments with ad hominems. It doesn’t prove a point and isn’t helpful to the discussion.

Agreed 100%. Ad hominem definitely reinforced his arguments.

Qbiken · September 2018

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Adenoma wrote: »

@DarkAedin , I don’t think you really read what I said. I said DKs don’t have enough HOTs and that’s why magDK is having trouble with DOTs. I’m not advocating for more heals for magDK - I’m saying that these complaints are emblematic of a lack of variety for magDK heals.

If you want to have reasonable discussion, don’t get all bent out of shape and emphasize tangents and straw men arguments.

Burning embers
Coagulating Blood
Flamelash/power lash
Cinder storm
Cautherize

* Engulfing flames (boosts burning ember heal)
* Dragonic Power (extra healing received)
* Battleroar

Literally every single skill and/or passive mag dk uses either heal or boosts their heal. How does magdk need more heal?

While this topic isn't about magdk, they don't need more heal.

DarkAedin · September 2018

Adenoma wrote: »

@DarkAedin , playing around 0-6 friendly players is a range at which mutagen/rapid regen will not target yourself reliably.

Don’t justify poor arguments with ad hominems. It doesn’t prove a point and isn’t helpful to the discussion.

Since these guys are crying about bleeds in bgs, with 4 players max on ur side: rr/mutagen will take 2 casts to get everyone, its also a smart heal, mechanic wise, and lasts 18s, longer then 99% of bg fights
0-6players is 1-3 casts, and worth it.

Ur retort sounds exactly like a zerg surfing lemming who doesnt solo or small man. Bc zerg surfing is the only scenario where rr/mutagen doesnt reliably hit you.

ellahellabella · September 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

.

Adenoma wrote: »

@DarkAedin , I don’t think you really read what I said. I said DKs don’t have enough HOTs and that’s why magDK is having trouble with DOTs. I’m not advocating for more heals for magDK - I’m saying that these complaints are emblematic of a lack of variety for magDK heals.

If you want to have reasonable discussion, don’t get all bent out of shape and emphasize tangents and straw men arguments.

Burning embers Takes time to build up to a decent heal
Coagulating Blood Expensive, no spammies!
Flamelash/power lash Player Needs to be offbalance for the powerlash which now has a cooldown
Cinder storm WHO EVEN USES THIS?
Cautherize Cheapest single insta heal available but can be stolen by another player like healing ward can
Shattering rocks Use once only every 6 seconds because it's a cc

* Engulfing flames (boosts burning ember heal) yeah, great. That heal I have to wait on will be stronk now
* Dragonic Power (extra healing received) The heals I'm waiting on got stronker!
* Battleroar Need ult for that so it's basically like healing yourself using a potion and as such, a very unreliable thing to use as a heal

Literally every single skill and/or passive mag dk uses either heal or boosts their heal. How does magdk need more heal?

While this topic isn't about magdk, they don't need more heal.

Added bolded stuffs in that for my imput on those skills. You're right, Mdk doesn't need MORE heal, they simply lack a HOT which is the best defence against bleeds generally. As a Mdk user, I would happily agree to converting one of those skills to HOT (minus Coag and Cauterize).

technohic · September 2018

I know bleeds can hurt me, but I also notice the face tank DKs tanking 4 or 5 guys; you walk up and put some bleeds, defile, and POTL on them and they suddenly panic a bit more and actually start to go try to use some LOS

This is in CP Cyrodiil though. I can see where it could be a lot different in non-CP

Adenoma · September 2018

@DarkAedin , I literally only solo or duo.

Nobody is arguing for more heals. We’re discussing variety of heals as a cause for the complaints that seem to be brought by a predominantly magDK crowd. Flame lash is the only true HOT that the class has with a relatively low uptime. Nobody uses cinder storm and literally every other heal is a burst.

DarkAedin · September 2018

Its interesting how nearly every stam build has 2h's hot AND vigor, where mag builds refuse to use the tools given to them in resto staff line.

Adenoma wrote: »

@DarkAedin , I literally only solo or duo.

Nobody is arguing for more heals. We’re discussing variety of heals as a cause for the complaints that seem to be brought by a predominantly magDK crowd. Flame lash is the only true HOT that the class has with a relatively low uptime. Nobody uses cinder storm and literally every other heal is a burst.

U only solo or duo but cant manage to reliably hit urself with a single cast of rr which hits 2 players?
Oo

Adenoma · September 2018

@DarkAedin , not every point I have to make is self-referent. I play stamblade and stamwarden. I’m not casting a lot of rapid regen/mutagen at all, but that doesn’t stop me from recognizing the targeting problems of those abilities.

My stamNB is a bleed-focused build and I’ll say that I have an easy time fighting magDK because they have to expend a large amount of resources and GCDs to burst back up.

DarkAedin · September 2018

DarkAedin wrote: »

Adenoma wrote: »

@DarkAedin , I don’t think you really read what I said. I said DKs don’t have enough HOTs and that’s why magDK is having trouble with DOTs. I’m not advocating for more heals for magDK - I’m saying that these complaints are emblematic of a lack of variety for magDK heals.

If you want to have reasonable discussion, don’t get all bent out of shape and emphasize tangents and straw men arguments.

Sounds more like mag dks not wanting to slot resto staff

Adenoma wrote: »

@DarkAedin , not every point I have to make is self-referent. I play stamblade and stamwarden. I’m not casting a lot of rapid regen/mutagen at all, but that doesn’t stop me from recognizing the targeting problems of those abilities.

My stamNB is a bleed-focused build and I’ll say that I have an easy time fighting magDK because they have to expend a large amount of resources and GCDs to burst back up.