IAVITNI wrote: »

Take the Major Defile off. Bump the damage up/add another debuff. The fact that you can spam a skill that hits as hard as these do from behind a zerg AND apply the most powerful debuff in the game is ridiculously off balance.

How are these skills un-balanced? They are single target, have long cast times, are interrupt-able, are severely visually and audibly telegraphed, and are actively and passively dodge-able. They have perhaps the most counter-play of any skills in the game.

For this price they offer very high tooltip values, defile to prevent easy recovery, and their slow travel times allow for burst combos.

Balanced. Could they be reworked? Probably. By removing Defile? Not IMO.

The_Outsider wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Take the Major Defile off. Bump the damage up/add another debuff. The fact that you can spam a skill that hits as hard as these do from behind a zerg AND apply the most powerful debuff in the game is ridiculously off balance.

How are these skills un-balanced? They are single target, have long cast times, are interrupt-able, are severely visually and audibly telegraphed, and are actively and passively dodge-able. They have perhaps the most counter-play of any skills in the game.

For this price they offer very high tooltip values, defile to prevent easy recovery, and their slow travel times allow for burst combos.

Balanced. Could they be reworked? Probably. By removing Defile? Not IMO.

You can walk out of Dark Flare. Snipe is a somewhat different story, but hardly deadly in the current environment, even with the desyncing issues.

Can't remember the last time I died to either of these skills.

In PvE they have always been utter crapola.

Make every Snipe user morph into a pink unicorn. And send them a bag of potatoes instead of campaign rewards

By Sheo's beard, some sorcs really, really give their class a bad name.

Enjoy the game, that's all. Enjoy killing, enjoy dying and reading the death recap. Not everyone will be a top tier streamer, not everyone will be an 1vX. Not everyone will do parses of 75k on a dummy (which imho is a stupid way to play the game, but some people like it a lot)

I know Summerset was a good patch for sorc, and I know the nerf to rune was somewhat excesive. But sorcs have killed others without rune since 2014. If your entire set up depends on just ONE skill, then the problem is not rune.

Same as the nerf with DF and LA... if you die to ONE skill, then the problem is not the skill.

Kadoin wrote: »

The funny part is that he claimed to be a mag sorc playing in Cyrodil, and he doesn't have crushing shock?

And where was it stated that Crushing Shock wasn't on my bar? When I claimed to be a magsorc, I also stated that the Defile was a non-issue for the majority of my gameplay. Before you throw out a L2P I suggest you learn to read.

For all those telling me to L2P, I've pulled off at least a 1v4 on all classes except magblade and magden. And I don't mean a 1v2 and 2 more show up, but 4 players constantly wailing on me while maintaining a modest degree of heals and buff uptime. I have no issue from dying to a single DF or Snipe (desynch is a different story) from a gank or in a 1vx. I automatically target the sniper/DF. I've pulled of plenty of x's with snipe spammers involved. I'm coming from cross-class experience. Especially during SS, I had no problems dealing with Snipe on my main.

Checkmath wrote: »

in a 1vX situations this skill is no high risk high reward skill anymore, since the risk is gone by standing behind the zerg. but its not overperforming in this sense, since actually every skill and damage overperforms in this context: you have 4 curses on you? good luck with the high burst. you have 4 mages wrath on you? good luck surviving when getting low. etc etc etc. the same goes for those skills.
sure they could have a rework with no cast time and stuff, but it would just make them into other skills for other situations, overperforming or underperforming in different situatiuons. as spammable, there are probably better skills like imbue weapons and so on...
without a really good idea, i would not recommend touching those skills.

But now you are equating the pressure of 1 snipe to 4 skills from 4 different players.The skill essentially performs like a ranged incap since most players Snipe from stealth. Reverb and Durok's are annoying but manageable. If I get hit from a Snipe from stealth in a 1vx that's stamina used for a break free, stamina used for a dodge roll for the incoming follow-up snipes and possibly another dodge roll depending on the class/situation/available LoS, all while being low health and unable to properly heal due to Major Defile. All that just to deal with the pressure from a single player that is literally spamming 1 button.

I'd rather be hit by an Incap gank. At least I know that there was a series of actions taken to line up the burst and that an ultimate was used at melee. The ease with which the pressure from snipe can be applied is way off. I have more respect for Zaan's+Sloads+Durok builds because they have to do more than spam a button from stealth.

And underperforming/overperforming is somewhat innacurate. It's more like useless/ridiculous. Varied effectiveness due to situation is a good thing, but the degree by which these skill vary is far to great at the moment. Though I agree that they should not be touched until a valid alternative is present.

Joy_Division wrote: »

L2P issue.

If you are getting Xv1ed by a dark flare spammer, you have to make them your priority target. As the OP pointed out, dark flare already isn't a very good 1v1 or 1vX spell (so let's make it even worse, yeah logic!) so the majority of players using this skill will be of the Xv1 variety, thus making them even more of an ideal target.

And let's not kid ourselves. If ZOS does what the OP suggests, the Xv1ers who are dark flaring him will then instead Jesus Beam him at 100% health and the OP will come right back onto these forums and make the same argument as to how Jesus Beam needs to be nerfed.

I do make them my priority. But thank you for assuming my playstyle. I also said that the damage could be buffed, channel removed, another debuff etc. So thank you for reading actually reading before telling me L2P. Shall I assume you need to L2R while we're at it?

How about this. Grab 4 friends in PvP and have 4 of them spam radiant at full health and then have them spam dark flare at full health. Then tell me which one is more frustrating. If 4 people spam radiant at full health, I could just pop a vigor, run right up to them and slap em with a DB while laughing the whole time. If I die to them I'd save the clip, show my guildies and laugh silently to myself as they all tear me apart emotionally. Mechanically, the skills seem balanced, but in regards to the effort:pressure ratio, balance is non-existent since 1 aspect is always going to be far to low while the other is far too high.

I have less of an issue with DF since it does not have the same potential as Snipe.That said, it still doesn't make sense. Solar Barrage would be better served with Major Defile, especially after the damage nerf. (this nerf ruined the latest build I was testing so next rep meeting please make Solar Barrage OP-the Major Defile is a snide comment, not a legitimate suggestion by the way). Moderate damage coupled with a strong debuff but requires effort from the player to apply the most powerful debuff in the game. Much more balanced than DF spam. SB would see use at that point, much more than current DF. So what does that say about DF balance? The skill sucks and it needs a change.

So how about this:
TL:DR;

• Skills are useless 1v1
• Skills are ridiculous 1vx
• Effort:pressure ratio is way off

pieratsos wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Take all the damage off dark flare too. Just make it a channel that buffs one light attack.

So a skill that tooltips for 15k on average, applies Major Defile or forces constant roll dodges and can be spammed from the backlines is ok? Ever 1v2 where one player is spamming Dark Flare or Snipe as a magplar? You can't cleanse and heal in time or dodge roll long enough.

People complain about Mage's Wrath, meanwhile these skills are for more effective. Wrath will only kill players that are about to die anyways. These skills will not only kill players about to die, they will get them into execute threshold and then prevent them from healing out of it. It's poor balancing and a crutch for bad players.

that 15k also doesn't do anything special and it's highly telegraphed.

At least snipe can deal more damage based on stacking LAs and distance from target; dark flare gives minor sorcery which is probably already cast by purfying light, gives you ultimate with a cooldown (also already proc'd by purfying light), and grants empower for you to do a stronger light attack? If anything DF NEEDS the defile since the passives are worse than beer farts.

eh, maybe snipe can have its defile moved, but this is a L2P issue more than anything. Also fix that evil bug where multiple snipes can be stacked by lag/exploit :P

I can deal with snipes/Dark Flares on any class solo, small scale or large group except magden. It's not a L2P issue and it's not even a Snipe/Dark Flare issue. It's a Major Defile issue. The strongest debuff in the game should not be attached to such hard hitting ranged skills.

The 2 skills are underperforming on one spectrum (1v1) but over performing at the other (xv1). That's the definition of unbalanced. Getting hit by a single snipe/dark flare even in a 1v2 is incredibly difficult to deal with relative to any other common factor across classes. And this is not counting the situations when the 2 are equally skilled players, either individually or collectively.

@Kadoin I'm a mag sorc main btw. I could care less about Defile majority of my gameplay. But when I play on any other class, mag or stam, there is no threat as common or punishing as Major Defile.

These skills may be underperforming, but balancing them on a crutch is not real balance. Up their damage 10%, give them a bleed/magic DoT, decrease cast time whatever. Balance them by making the skill themselves useful/usable, not by slapping an over performing mechanic onto it

Is it underperforming? Or overperforming? It can't be both.

They can and he explained how.

Except my comment was an attempt to suggest that argument would be better off if OP looked at the abilities objectively. You can't win arguments/fights if you think of something as both weak/strong. If it's weak, then use the counter correctly and kill off the things that are weak before hitting the strong enemies. If it's strong, approach the situation cautiously, find the counters and then kill when you are at your strongest/their weakest. Only then can OP suggest if the ability needs a change.

For example, he says it's overperforming because of the defile/burst damage but then suggests its easy to counter in 1v1.
But the reality is its only underperforming because the counter for these abilities in 1v1 scales MUCH better in 1vX scenarios, where your one dodge roll will also dodge every direct instant cast attack cast at you when you do the dodge roll. And when you finally take those 20 snipes/dark flares is because:
1) you didnt LOS right because you still have 20 people able to target oyu
2) you didnt LOS enough to force a 1v1 in a vacuum where OP should be getting his kills anyway.
3) you are going to die because you decided to fight against 20 people without a plan (meaning you walked into that fight arrogantly with the mindset that most abilities are both strong/weak and thus have the mentality you will never die except to "overperforming mechanics".)

And they nerfed defile duration. As others have said it nicer than I have, its a L2P situation.

Minno wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Take all the damage off dark flare too. Just make it a channel that buffs one light attack.

So a skill that tooltips for 15k on average, applies Major Defile or forces constant roll dodges and can be spammed from the backlines is ok? Ever 1v2 where one player is spamming Dark Flare or Snipe as a magplar? You can't cleanse and heal in time or dodge roll long enough.

People complain about Mage's Wrath, meanwhile these skills are for more effective. Wrath will only kill players that are about to die anyways. These skills will not only kill players about to die, they will get them into execute threshold and then prevent them from healing out of it. It's poor balancing and a crutch for bad players.

that 15k also doesn't do anything special and it's highly telegraphed.

At least snipe can deal more damage based on stacking LAs and distance from target; dark flare gives minor sorcery which is probably already cast by purfying light, gives you ultimate with a cooldown (also already proc'd by purfying light), and grants empower for you to do a stronger light attack? If anything DF NEEDS the defile since the passives are worse than beer farts.

eh, maybe snipe can have its defile moved, but this is a L2P issue more than anything. Also fix that evil bug where multiple snipes can be stacked by lag/exploit :P

I can deal with snipes/Dark Flares on any class solo, small scale or large group except magden. It's not a L2P issue and it's not even a Snipe/Dark Flare issue. It's a Major Defile issue. The strongest debuff in the game should not be attached to such hard hitting ranged skills.

The 2 skills are underperforming on one spectrum (1v1) but over performing at the other (xv1). That's the definition of unbalanced. Getting hit by a single snipe/dark flare even in a 1v2 is incredibly difficult to deal with relative to any other common factor across classes. And this is not counting the situations when the 2 are equally skilled players, either individually or collectively.

@Kadoin I'm a mag sorc main btw. I could care less about Defile majority of my gameplay. But when I play on any other class, mag or stam, there is no threat as common or punishing as Major Defile.

These skills may be underperforming, but balancing them on a crutch is not real balance. Up their damage 10%, give them a bleed/magic DoT, decrease cast time whatever. Balance them by making the skill themselves useful/usable, not by slapping an over performing mechanic onto it

Is it underperforming? Or overperforming? It can't be both.

They can and he explained how.

Except my comment was an attempt to suggest that argument would be better off if OP looked at the abilities objectively. You can't win arguments/fights if you think of something as both weak/strong. If it's weak, then use the counter correctly and kill off the things that are weak before hitting the strong enemies. If it's strong, approach the situation cautiously, find the counters and then kill when you are at your strongest/their weakest. Only then can OP suggest if the ability needs a change.

For example, he says it's overperforming because of the defile/burst damage but then suggests its easy to counter in 1v1.
But the reality is its only underperforming because the counter for these abilities in 1v1 scales MUCH better in 1vX scenarios, where your one dodge roll will also dodge every direct instant cast attack cast at you when you do the dodge roll. And when you finally take those 20 snipes/dark flares is because:
1) you didnt LOS right because you still have 20 people able to target oyu
2) you didnt LOS enough to force a 1v1 in a vacuum where OP should be getting his kills anyway.
3) you are going to die because you decided to fight against 20 people without a plan (meaning you walked into that fight arrogantly with the mindset that most abilities are both strong/weak and thus have the mentality you will never die except to "overperforming mechanics".)

And they nerfed defile duration. As others have said it nicer than I have, its a L2P situation.

Objectively, 1 player standing behind a group should not apply the same amount of pressure that a Reverb or Duroks user can apply, all by spamming 1 button.

Objectively, I'd like to only lose when I misplay or am outplayed. Not when players, majority of whom have minimal understanding of combat mechanics, tap 1 button.

I 100% can base my argument on weak or strong because the disparity between strong and weak for these skills is so great that it clearly indicates there is something wrong mechanically.

Not once have I said nerf Snipe/DF. The OP states that the Major Defile should be removed and compensated with something else that isn't as punishing to small scale players. Someone in a group is not going to suffer at all from getting hit by a Snipe/DF but a solo/small scale player will go from completely in control of a 1vx to full defensive when hit by a snipe/DF from stealth.

Removing Major Defile will not have any significant impact on large scale group play. It will however, alleviate pressure for solo/small scale players who are already at a disadvantage due to Siphoner, costs poisons, snares and proc sets and the fact that they are fighting outnumbered to begin with. DPS wise, Major Fracture is a stronger debuff anyways for Snipe and DF does not even make sense in the magplar toolkit, except for niche builds. If it was actually a good skill that didn't require balancing, it would be far more prevalent.

Solo/small scale is still a factor for balance. Until ZoS removes keep resources, nobody can refute that.

Minno wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Take all the damage off dark flare too. Just make it a channel that buffs one light attack.

So a skill that tooltips for 15k on average, applies Major Defile or forces constant roll dodges and can be spammed from the backlines is ok? Ever 1v2 where one player is spamming Dark Flare or Snipe as a magplar? You can't cleanse and heal in time or dodge roll long enough.

People complain about Mage's Wrath, meanwhile these skills are for more effective. Wrath will only kill players that are about to die anyways. These skills will not only kill players about to die, they will get them into execute threshold and then prevent them from healing out of it. It's poor balancing and a crutch for bad players.

that 15k also doesn't do anything special and it's highly telegraphed.

At least snipe can deal more damage based on stacking LAs and distance from target; dark flare gives minor sorcery which is probably already cast by purfying light, gives you ultimate with a cooldown (also already proc'd by purfying light), and grants empower for you to do a stronger light attack? If anything DF NEEDS the defile since the passives are worse than beer farts.

eh, maybe snipe can have its defile moved, but this is a L2P issue more than anything. Also fix that evil bug where multiple snipes can be stacked by lag/exploit :P

I can deal with snipes/Dark Flares on any class solo, small scale or large group except magden. It's not a L2P issue and it's not even a Snipe/Dark Flare issue. It's a Major Defile issue. The strongest debuff in the game should not be attached to such hard hitting ranged skills.

The 2 skills are underperforming on one spectrum (1v1) but over performing at the other (xv1). That's the definition of unbalanced. Getting hit by a single snipe/dark flare even in a 1v2 is incredibly difficult to deal with relative to any other common factor across classes. And this is not counting the situations when the 2 are equally skilled players, either individually or collectively.

@Kadoin I'm a mag sorc main btw. I could care less about Defile majority of my gameplay. But when I play on any other class, mag or stam, there is no threat as common or punishing as Major Defile.

These skills may be underperforming, but balancing them on a crutch is not real balance. Up their damage 10%, give them a bleed/magic DoT, decrease cast time whatever. Balance them by making the skill themselves useful/usable, not by slapping an over performing mechanic onto it

Is it underperforming? Or overperforming? It can't be both.

They can and he explained how.

Except my comment was an attempt to suggest that argument would be better off if OP looked at the abilities objectively. You can't win arguments/fights if you think of something as both weak/strong. If it's weak, then use the counter correctly and kill off the things that are weak before hitting the strong enemies. If it's strong, approach the situation cautiously, find the counters and then kill when you are at your strongest/their weakest. Only then can OP suggest if the ability needs a change.

For example, he says it's overperforming because of the defile/burst damage but then suggests its easy to counter in 1v1.
But the reality is its only underperforming because the counter for these abilities in 1v1 scales MUCH better in 1vX scenarios, where your one dodge roll will also dodge every direct instant cast attack cast at you when you do the dodge roll. And when you finally take those 20 snipes/dark flares is because:
1) you didnt LOS right because you still have 20 people able to target oyu
2) you didnt LOS enough to force a 1v1 in a vacuum where OP should be getting his kills anyway.
3) you are going to die because you decided to fight against 20 people without a plan (meaning you walked into that fight arrogantly with the mindset that most abilities are both strong/weak and thus have the mentality you will never die except to "overperforming mechanics".)

And they nerfed defile duration. As others have said it nicer than I have, its a L2P situation.

Objectively, 1 player standing behind a group should not apply the same amount of pressure that a Reverb or Duroks user can apply, all by spamming 1 button.

Objectively, I'd like to only lose when I misplay or am outplayed. Not when players, majority of whom have minimal understanding of combat mechanics, tap 1 button.

I 100% can base my argument on weak or strong because the disparity between strong and weak for these skills is so great that it clearly indicates there is something wrong mechanically.

Not once have I said nerf Snipe/DF. The OP states that the Major Defile should be removed and compensated with something else that isn't as punishing to small scale players. Someone in a group is not going to suffer at all from getting hit by a Snipe/DF but a solo/small scale player will go from completely in control of a 1vx to full defensive when hit by a snipe/DF from stealth.

Removing Major Defile will not have any significant impact on large scale group play. It will however, alleviate pressure for solo/small scale players who are already at a disadvantage due to Siphoner, costs poisons, snares and proc sets and the fact that they are fighting outnumbered to begin with. DPS wise, Major Fracture is a stronger debuff anyways for Snipe and DF does not even make sense in the magplar toolkit, except for niche builds. If it was actually a good skill that didn't require balancing, it would be far more prevalent.

Solo/small scale is still a factor for balance. Until ZoS removes keep resources, nobody can refute that.

So is duroks/reverb in the same boat as DF/Snipe? I can use both of those in a zerg to punish smaller groups. With the exception that one stuns and the other doesn't even waste resources.

I agree that DF/snipe could use some changes. But I think to punish bow/magplar is kinda weird when there are things, as you mention, like siphoner, cost poisons, and certain proc sets that ignore some mechanics related to beams.

So based on your OP, is defile the strongest debuff or is it fracture? If it's fracture, then why are you suggesting DF/snipe receive a better debuff that can be spammed from a zerg? Makes no sense lol.

IAVITNI wrote: »

Take the Major Defile off. Bump the damage up/add another debuff. The fact that you can spam a skill that hits as hard as these do from behind a zerg AND apply the most powerful debuff in the game is ridiculously off balance.

The reason these abilities aren't used, except in niche situations, is because you are stuck in a bash-able/interrupted animation. Most players are up front and center, while needing every GCD to stay offensive/defensive. It's attack has a long arc, but that arc lets you stack up another 2-3 attacks so they all hit at once if your target doesn't dodge roll/get close. This means only rangplars/gankers make full use of this ability, but templars inherently lack escape mechanics which is why you think the ability doesn't fit in the kit, but templars are the only class with a ranged CC that scales witheither stam/mag toons (which is why the knockback exists for synergy with this ability, btw). Why else do some old bow stamplar players like how lethal arrow+javelin feels great for engaging players from afar? They can sprint away at least, compared to magplar who has to run vamp+mist form which doesnt synergize with anything in the templar kit (heals, channels, purifying light burst that needs you on the offensive, etc).

I would keep them the same, until a better idea comes along.

Nightblade is currently the strongest class in PvE and arguably PvP but that doesn't make it the greatest tank or the greatest healer. DamagePerSecond wise-Fracture wins, a simple test on a target dummy will show that. Although I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that without it. Stop nit-picking syntax.

You just listed all these problems with the skills, stated they are weak etc. A better idea won't come along because they have Major Defile. ANY buff to these skills as they are now will cause them to overperform in ALL situations, not just xv1. They are skills that 100% require change. I did not ask to nerf the skills, but to change them so that they are actually balanced. Not mindless spam in a zerg, useless in a 1v1 and a 1-tap virtual death sentence in a 1v1.

Edit*

As to the Reverb and Durok parallel. No they are not the same. All are annoying to fight against, but Reverb and Durok require actual effort on part of the player to achieve the same level of pressure as Snipe/DF in a 1vx. Snipe/DF are just 1 taps.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

So I actually agree that defile probably shouldn't be paired with high damage skills like Snipe or Flare. However as others have pointed out these skills are sort of balanced around this, being relatively easy to counter while punishing if not countered.

Removing defile from them without appropriate address to rebalance the skills ensures a long period of further uselessness beyond their already weak/pathetic state. Specifically speaking to the bow, ZOS has very rarely adjusted bow skills and left us with a terrible CC for quite some time. I don't find these skills to be all that problematic, I hadn't died to Snipe in years before the most recent glitches with Snipe spam. Even with that I rarely ever die from this skill.

All cast time skills suffer more harshly from lag and can keep you casting for far longer than the published duration. Which makes these skills worse off than they already are in any situation outside of Xv1. Although I would like Snipe changed fundamentally, I find proc sets and bleeds to be far more problematic than these skills.

This is the only thing I will concede to everyone who's told me to L2P, although I did state that the skill should be compensated if the Defile is removed. Sort of balanced is still not balanced. I acknowledge the "balance" of the mechanics, but mechanics are moot if they can be bypassed.

I will always advocate for an overall buff to bow as a primary weapon. People mistake change for nerf. And this isn't a "qq because I died to snipe/DF so nerf it". I get desynched all the time in PvP, either in an x or on a mount. That I can handle, because it's an obvious exploit that will ideally be fixed "next patch". What is not ok is that people consider the level of pressure that Snipe/DF can apply in a 1vx and the uselessness of the skill everywhere else and argue that the skills are balanced because it has counters. Just because a skill has counters does not mean it is balanced, especially when the ONLY time the skill is actually strong is when majority of those counters are nullified or require a greater sacrifice. Is Mark balanced? Shield Breaker? Detect Pots?

Balancing a broken mechanic with another broken mechanic is just poor game design, and supporting that kind of design is indicative of how much thought people put into the game. Healing was over the top so they boosted Defile, which btw did not affect the healbots as much as the average build. Now Defile is too strong so they nerf uptimet. The whole process could have been avoided if they actually addressed the broken mechanic instead of introducing another one.

Yes proc and bleeds are problematic. But people are talking about that already. Snipe/DF has been flying under the radar for a while and it's time people really took notice of just how un-balanced these skills are. And for all the L2P responses. Un-balanaced=/overpowered.

IAVITNI wrote: »

I do make them my priority. But thank you for assuming my playstyle. I also said that the damage could be buffed, channel removed, another debuff etc. So thank you for reading actually reading before telling me L2P. Shall I assume you need to L2R while we're at it?

How about this. Grab 4 friends in PvP and have 4 of them spam radiant at full health and then have them spam dark flare at full health. Then tell me which one is more frustrating. If 4 people spam radiant at full health, I could just pop a vigor, run right up to them and slap em with a DB while laughing the whole time. If I die to them I'd save the clip, show my guildies and laugh silently to myself as they all tear me apart emotionally. Mechanically, the skills seem balanced, but in regards to the effort:pressure ratio, balance is non-existent since 1 aspect is always going to be far to low while the other is far too high.

I have less of an issue with DF since it does not have the same potential as Snipe.That said, it still doesn't make sense. Solar Barrage would be better served with Major Defile, especially after the damage nerf. (this nerf ruined the latest build I was testing so next rep meeting please make Solar Barrage OP-the Major Defile is a snide comment, not a legitimate suggestion by the way). Moderate damage coupled with a strong debuff but requires effort from the player to apply the most powerful debuff in the game. Much more balanced than DF spam. SB would see use at that point, much more than current DF. So what does that say about DF balance? The skill sucks and it needs a change.

So how about this:
TL:DR;

• Skills are useless 1v1
• Skills are ridiculous 1vx
• Effort:pressure ratio is way off

I haven't read a nerf Dark Flare thread in years. I read your posts, I still think it's quite a stretch complaining about getting Xv1ed by Dark Flare.

And putting defile on Solar Barrage would be crazy. It has no cast time and gives an 8 meter pulse every 2 seconds without having to do a thing, the only "effort" required by the templar is to move in the general vicinity. With the press of a single button, a Templar could defile everyone around her from the next 8 seconds, and players could not avoid it, not even dodge-roll. The only thing they could do is run away if they didn't want to get defiled. That's more than an Xv1 nightmare, that's totally busted. The Warden corrupting pollen skill is really strong; at least that's stationary, doesn't do damage, and doesn't empower.

BTW you cannot dodge the Major Defile effect from Dark Flare, it is an AOE effect. You can only dodge the damage portion, Dark Flare applies Major Defile 100% of the time when cast is completed.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

BTW you cannot dodge the Major Defile effect from Dark Flare, it is an AOE effect. You can only dodge the damage portion, Dark Flare applies Major Defile 100% of the time when cast is completed.

Really ?

Joy_Division wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

I do make them my priority. But thank you for assuming my playstyle. I also said that the damage could be buffed, channel removed, another debuff etc. So thank you for reading actually reading before telling me L2P. Shall I assume you need to L2R while we're at it?

How about this. Grab 4 friends in PvP and have 4 of them spam radiant at full health and then have them spam dark flare at full health. Then tell me which one is more frustrating. If 4 people spam radiant at full health, I could just pop a vigor, run right up to them and slap em with a DB while laughing the whole time. If I die to them I'd save the clip, show my guildies and laugh silently to myself as they all tear me apart emotionally. Mechanically, the skills seem balanced, but in regards to the effort:pressure ratio, balance is non-existent since 1 aspect is always going to be far to low while the other is far too high.

I have less of an issue with DF since it does not have the same potential as Snipe.That said, it still doesn't make sense. Solar Barrage would be better served with Major Defile, especially after the damage nerf. (this nerf ruined the latest build I was testing so next rep meeting please make Solar Barrage OP-the Major Defile is a snide comment, not a legitimate suggestion by the way). Moderate damage coupled with a strong debuff but requires effort from the player to apply the most powerful debuff in the game. Much more balanced than DF spam. SB would see use at that point, much more than current DF. So what does that say about DF balance? The skill sucks and it needs a change.

So how about this:
TL:DR;

• Skills are useless 1v1
• Skills are ridiculous 1vx
• Effort:pressure ratio is way off

I haven't read a nerf Dark Flare thread in years. I read your posts, I still think it's quite a stretch complaining about getting Xv1ed by Dark Flare.

And putting defile on Solar Barrage would be crazy. It has no cast time and gives an 8 meter pulse every 2 seconds without having to do a thing, the only "effort" required by the templar is to move in the general vicinity. With the press of a single button, a Templar could defile everyone around her from the next 8 seconds, and players could not avoid it, not even dodge-roll. The only thing they could do is run away if they didn't want to get defiled. That's more than an Xv1 nightmare, that's totally busted. The Warden corrupting pollen skill is really strong; at least that's stationary, doesn't do damage, and doesn't empower.

The Major Defile on barrage was just me being snide. But way to focus on it.

Please define the difference between nerf and change.

OP states remove Major Defile and give it something else.

So what is the definition of nerf in this case?

Skill is useless 1v1.
Skill is annoying af xv1
Skill requires no effort to apply insane pressure in an xv1

Does that sound balanced?
I just want to lose to skill or effort. Not some potato that taps a button.

And FYI, I win or survive most of my encounters with a Snipe/DF spammer. I die more to snare, bleeds, resource poisons and any encounter with multiple mDKs/gankgblades. I can tolerate those losses because those players actually did something.

Getting tagged with major Defile from a skill casted around 28m away AND being hit for a significant amount of damage all because the player could tap 1 button is annoying. They don't even have to aim. They don't have to stay with you. They see you and tap and ruin a fight that was 100% in the solo players control up until that single skill was cast.

How would you feel if you spent 5 minutes DPS'ing some PvE mini boss, performing proper rotations and someone else comes in, taps a button and either kills the boss or gets it low?

I've been sniped/DF by players I KNOW have good mechanics.It doesn't bother me because I know they are just trolling me (since normally they wouldn't attack me). What's frustrating is that players who have absolutely no idea how to actually fight are able to apply the most pressure simply by tapping a button.

Answer that. Is tapping 1 button and applying the same level of pressure as players far more experienced despite having minimal knowledge of actual game mechanics balanced?

Minno wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Take all the damage off dark flare too. Just make it a channel that buffs one light attack.

So a skill that tooltips for 15k on average, applies Major Defile or forces constant roll dodges and can be spammed from the backlines is ok? Ever 1v2 where one player is spamming Dark Flare or Snipe as a magplar? You can't cleanse and heal in time or dodge roll long enough.

People complain about Mage's Wrath, meanwhile these skills are for more effective. Wrath will only kill players that are about to die anyways. These skills will not only kill players about to die, they will get them into execute threshold and then prevent them from healing out of it. It's poor balancing and a crutch for bad players.

that 15k also doesn't do anything special and it's highly telegraphed.

At least snipe can deal more damage based on stacking LAs and distance from target; dark flare gives minor sorcery which is probably already cast by purfying light, gives you ultimate with a cooldown (also already proc'd by purfying light), and grants empower for you to do a stronger light attack? If anything DF NEEDS the defile since the passives are worse than beer farts.

eh, maybe snipe can have its defile moved, but this is a L2P issue more than anything. Also fix that evil bug where multiple snipes can be stacked by lag/exploit :P

I can deal with snipes/Dark Flares on any class solo, small scale or large group except magden. It's not a L2P issue and it's not even a Snipe/Dark Flare issue. It's a Major Defile issue. The strongest debuff in the game should not be attached to such hard hitting ranged skills.

The 2 skills are underperforming on one spectrum (1v1) but over performing at the other (xv1). That's the definition of unbalanced. Getting hit by a single snipe/dark flare even in a 1v2 is incredibly difficult to deal with relative to any other common factor across classes. And this is not counting the situations when the 2 are equally skilled players, either individually or collectively.

@Kadoin I'm a mag sorc main btw. I could care less about Defile majority of my gameplay. But when I play on any other class, mag or stam, there is no threat as common or punishing as Major Defile.

These skills may be underperforming, but balancing them on a crutch is not real balance. Up their damage 10%, give them a bleed/magic DoT, decrease cast time whatever. Balance them by making the skill themselves useful/usable, not by slapping an over performing mechanic onto it

Is it underperforming? Or overperforming? It can't be both.

They can and he explained how.

Except my comment was an attempt to suggest that argument would be better off if OP looked at the abilities objectively. You can't win arguments/fights if you think of something as both weak/strong. If it's weak, then use the counter correctly and kill off the things that are weak before hitting the strong enemies. If it's strong, approach the situation cautiously, find the counters and then kill when you are at your strongest/their weakest. Only then can OP suggest if the ability needs a change.

For example, he says it's overperforming because of the defile/burst damage but then suggests its easy to counter in 1v1.
But the reality is its only underperforming because the counter for these abilities in 1v1 scales MUCH better in 1vX scenarios, where your one dodge roll will also dodge every direct instant cast attack cast at you when you do the dodge roll. And when you finally take those 20 snipes/dark flares is because:
1) you didnt LOS right because you still have 20 people able to target oyu
2) you didnt LOS enough to force a 1v1 in a vacuum where OP should be getting his kills anyway.
3) you are going to die because you decided to fight against 20 people without a plan (meaning you walked into that fight arrogantly with the mindset that most abilities are both strong/weak and thus have the mentality you will never die except to "overperforming mechanics".)

And they nerfed defile duration. As others have said it nicer than I have, its a L2P situation.

At this point it's just a, continue-arguing-just-to-save-face thread. There is a hint to be had when 90% of commenters disagree with the extremely specific change a single person wants to implement and a text wall is required simply to try to reply to each comment...