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Take Major Defile off Snipe and Dark Flare
IAVITNI
✭✭✭✭✭
Take the Major Defile off. Bump the damage up/add another debuff. The fact that you can spam a skill that hits as hard as these do from behind a zerg AND apply the most powerful debuff in the game is ridiculously off balance.
8
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Freddycruz89✭✭✭No.Octavius Maximus, Founder of The Maester' Order
PS4 NA. Role Player. Housing Fanatic. Part Time Achievement Hunter.
| Princely Dawnlight Palace |22 -
Neoauspex✭✭✭✭✭
✭Take all the damage off dark flare too. Just make it a channel that buffs one light attack.18 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭Take all the damage off dark flare too. Just make it a channel that buffs one light attack.
So a skill that tooltips for 15k on average, applies Major Defile or forces constant roll dodges and can be spammed from the backlines is ok? Ever 1v2 where one player is spamming Dark Flare or Snipe as a magplar? You can't cleanse and heal in time or dodge roll long enough.
People complain about Mage's Wrath, meanwhile these skills are for more effective. Wrath will only kill players that are about to die anyways. These skills will not only kill players about to die, they will get them into execute threshold and then prevent them from healing out of it. It's poor balancing and a crutch for bad players.0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Take all the damage off dark flare too. Just make it a channel that buffs one light attack.
So a skill that tooltips for 15k on average, applies Major Defile or forces constant roll dodges and can be spammed from the backlines is ok? Ever 1v2 where one player is spamming Dark Flare or Snipe as a magplar? You can't cleanse and heal in time or dodge roll long enough.
People complain about Mage's Wrath, meanwhile these skills are for more effective. Wrath will only kill players that are about to die anyways. These skills will not only kill players about to die, they will get them into execute threshold and then prevent them from healing out of it. It's poor balancing and a crutch for bad players.
that 15k also doesn't do anything special and it's highly telegraphed.
At least snipe can deal more damage based on stacking LAs and distance from target; dark flare gives minor sorcery which is probably already cast by purfying light, gives you ultimate with a cooldown (also already proc'd by purfying light), and grants empower for you to do a stronger light attack? If anything DF NEEDS the defile since the passives are worse than beer farts.
eh, maybe snipe can have its defile moved, but this is a L2P issue more than anything. Also fix that evil bug where multiple snipes can be stacked by lag/exploit :PMinno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual9 -
Neoauspex✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sounds like a problem with your build. You really should have some way of handling a dodgeable/reflectable/bashable/slow travel time/1 second cast time skill.14 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Take all the damage off dark flare too. Just make it a channel that buffs one light attack.
So a skill that tooltips for 15k on average, applies Major Defile or forces constant roll dodges and can be spammed from the backlines is ok? Ever 1v2 where one player is spamming Dark Flare or Snipe as a magplar? You can't cleanse and heal in time or dodge roll long enough.
People complain about Mage's Wrath, meanwhile these skills are for more effective. Wrath will only kill players that are about to die anyways. These skills will not only kill players about to die, they will get them into execute threshold and then prevent them from healing out of it. It's poor balancing and a crutch for bad players.
I have and its not that big a deal...then again even with defile on , mutagen + ritual of retribution healing me for ~2K+. I have more of an issue with DKs spamming petrify than snipe, even if I hate NBs and their snipe spam I have to be honest.
As for saying "wrath only kills players that were about to die anyway" that's rich, especially considering I would survive one to four wraths, but not 8 when a zerg is on me and 7+ dawnbreakers + meteors get dropped. 8 wraths is a death sentence even if you can heal past their damage since its all in the same instant. Wow, it's almost as if skills become more potent the more people use them!
The funny part is that you are complaining about not being able to dodge roll...why don't you close distance and interrupt the snipe caster in that 1v2. Assuming you can do any amount of damage, then light + jab him. Assuming he is a good distance away, charge + light + ulti (literally any offensive ult usually works against snipe spammers and kills them quickly unless your damage sucks, but if you damage sucks how are you losing a 1v2 or not sustaining stam?).0 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Dear ESO PvPers,
Please stahp with the "nerf Templars" threads. We don't have much left to nerf and our Clas rep has enough on their plate without trying to deflect posts like this. Pretty soon we'll have nothing left but an even more severely neutered Breath of Life and our broken jabs. Leave us alone and we'll continue to kill you in spite of our barely functioning toolkit. Thanks.
Sincerely,
UsPC/Xbox NA
Unchained | Unstoppable | Mindmender | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planes Breaker | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Tick-tock Tormentor | Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Stormproof | Grand Overlord | Grand Mastercrafter | Master Grappler | Tamriel Hero19 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭Take all the damage off dark flare too. Just make it a channel that buffs one light attack.
So a skill that tooltips for 15k on average, applies Major Defile or forces constant roll dodges and can be spammed from the backlines is ok? Ever 1v2 where one player is spamming Dark Flare or Snipe as a magplar? You can't cleanse and heal in time or dodge roll long enough.
People complain about Mage's Wrath, meanwhile these skills are for more effective. Wrath will only kill players that are about to die anyways. These skills will not only kill players about to die, they will get them into execute threshold and then prevent them from healing out of it. It's poor balancing and a crutch for bad players.
that 15k also doesn't do anything special and it's highly telegraphed.
At least snipe can deal more damage based on stacking LAs and distance from target; dark flare gives minor sorcery which is probably already cast by purfying light, gives you ultimate with a cooldown (also already proc'd by purfying light), and grants empower for you to do a stronger light attack? If anything DF NEEDS the defile since the passives are worse than beer farts.
eh, maybe snipe can have its defile moved, but this is a L2P issue more than anything. Also fix that evil bug where multiple snipes can be stacked by lag/exploit :P
I can deal with snipes/Dark Flares on any class solo, small scale or large group except magden. It's not a L2P issue and it's not even a Snipe/Dark Flare issue. It's a Major Defile issue. The strongest debuff in the game should not be attached to such hard hitting ranged skills.
The 2 skills are underperforming on one spectrum (1v1) but over performing at the other (xv1). That's the definition of unbalanced. Getting hit by a single snipe/dark flare even in a 1v2 is incredibly difficult to deal with relative to any other common factor across classes. And this is not counting the situations when the 2 are equally skilled players, either individually or collectively.
@Kadoin I'm a mag sorc main btw. I could care less about Defile majority of my gameplay. But when I play on any other class, mag or stam, there is no threat as common or punishing as Major Defile.
These skills may be underperforming, but balancing them on a crutch is not real balance. Up their damage 10%, give them a bleed/magic DoT, decrease cast time whatever. Balance them by making the skill themselves useful/usable, not by slapping an over performing mechanic onto itEdited by IAVITNI on August 25, 2018 1:05AM2 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭They literally just nerfed the defile on those skills... I also can't think of any skill that is easier to avoid or deal with than Dark Flare. Like seriously.Edited by Solariken on August 25, 2018 1:20AM7 -
Iki✭✭✭Major defile is so strong debuff that it should come from expensive and situational abilities. I would say reverberating bash is pretty good example of balanced source of major defile, as it is expensive melee-range ability with low dmg. Unlike dark flare and lethal arrow. At the very least they should change major to minor defile on those.1 -
crazy_catman21✭✭✭Take all the damage off dark flare too. Just make it a channel that buffs one light attack.
So a skill that tooltips for 15k on average, applies Major Defile or forces constant roll dodges and can be spammed from the backlines is ok? Ever 1v2 where one player is spamming Dark Flare or Snipe as a magplar? You can't cleanse and heal in time or dodge roll long enough.
People complain about Mage's Wrath, meanwhile these skills are for more effective. Wrath will only kill players that are about to die anyways. These skills will not only kill players about to die, they will get them into execute threshold and then prevent them from healing out of it. It's poor balancing and a crutch for bad players.
Idk why you expect most ppl to know the experience outnumbered being sniped. Most ppl on the forums are usually the ones in the back spamming it
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Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭Please dont compare snipe to dark flare. Snipe hits harder and is harder to dodge. If a dark flare hit you, you were gonna die anyways.1 -
TheUndeadAmulet✭✭✭✭✭Dear ESO PvPers,
Please stahp with the "nerf Templars" threads. We don't have much left to nerf and our Clas rep has enough on their plate without trying to deflect posts like this. Pretty soon we'll have nothing left but an even more severely neutered Breath of Life and our broken jabs. Leave us alone and we'll continue to kill you in spite of our barely functioning toolkit. Thanks.
Sincerely,
Us
This. If you die to a Magplar, you are doing something wrong.XBOX NA 1000+ CP
PC NA 400+ CP
nerf ping please3 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Take all the damage off dark flare too. Just make it a channel that buffs one light attack.
So a skill that tooltips for 15k on average, applies Major Defile or forces constant roll dodges and can be spammed from the backlines is ok? Ever 1v2 where one player is spamming Dark Flare or Snipe as a magplar? You can't cleanse and heal in time or dodge roll long enough.
People complain about Mage's Wrath, meanwhile these skills are for more effective. Wrath will only kill players that are about to die anyways. These skills will not only kill players about to die, they will get them into execute threshold and then prevent them from healing out of it. It's poor balancing and a crutch for bad players.
that 15k also doesn't do anything special and it's highly telegraphed.
At least snipe can deal more damage based on stacking LAs and distance from target; dark flare gives minor sorcery which is probably already cast by purfying light, gives you ultimate with a cooldown (also already proc'd by purfying light), and grants empower for you to do a stronger light attack? If anything DF NEEDS the defile since the passives are worse than beer farts.
eh, maybe snipe can have its defile moved, but this is a L2P issue more than anything. Also fix that evil bug where multiple snipes can be stacked by lag/exploit :P
I can deal with snipes/Dark Flares on any class solo, small scale or large group except magden. It's not a L2P issue and it's not even a Snipe/Dark Flare issue. It's a Major Defile issue. The strongest debuff in the game should not be attached to such hard hitting ranged skills.
The 2 skills are underperforming on one spectrum (1v1) but over performing at the other (xv1). That's the definition of unbalanced. Getting hit by a single snipe/dark flare even in a 1v2 is incredibly difficult to deal with relative to any other common factor across classes. And this is not counting the situations when the 2 are equally skilled players, either individually or collectively.
@Kadoin I'm a mag sorc main btw. I could care less about Defile majority of my gameplay. But when I play on any other class, mag or stam, there is no threat as common or punishing as Major Defile.
These skills may be underperforming, but balancing them on a crutch is not real balance. Up their damage 10%, give them a bleed/magic DoT, decrease cast time whatever. Balance them by making the skill themselves useful/usable, not by slapping an over performing mechanic onto it
Is it underperforming? Or overperforming? It can't be both.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual2 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Take the Major Defile off. Bump the damage up/add another debuff. The fact that you can spam a skill that hits as hard as these do from behind a zerg AND apply the most powerful debuff in the game is ridiculously off balance.
Whether a user is in a zerg or not is irrelevant to the power level of a skill. Anything used in a zerg is effective.
Major defile exists for good reason. Taking it off skills that are not over-performing is not a good idea, it needs to be easily accessible.5 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Take all the damage off dark flare too. Just make it a channel that buffs one light attack.
So a skill that tooltips for 15k on average, applies Major Defile or forces constant roll dodges and can be spammed from the backlines is ok? Ever 1v2 where one player is spamming Dark Flare or Snipe as a magplar? You can't cleanse and heal in time or dodge roll long enough.
People complain about Mage's Wrath, meanwhile these skills are for more effective. Wrath will only kill players that are about to die anyways. These skills will not only kill players about to die, they will get them into execute threshold and then prevent them from healing out of it. It's poor balancing and a crutch for bad players.
that 15k also doesn't do anything special and it's highly telegraphed.
At least snipe can deal more damage based on stacking LAs and distance from target; dark flare gives minor sorcery which is probably already cast by purfying light, gives you ultimate with a cooldown (also already proc'd by purfying light), and grants empower for you to do a stronger light attack? If anything DF NEEDS the defile since the passives are worse than beer farts.
eh, maybe snipe can have its defile moved, but this is a L2P issue more than anything. Also fix that evil bug where multiple snipes can be stacked by lag/exploit :P
I can deal with snipes/Dark Flares on any class solo, small scale or large group except magden. It's not a L2P issue and it's not even a Snipe/Dark Flare issue. It's a Major Defile issue. The strongest debuff in the game should not be attached to such hard hitting ranged skills.
The 2 skills are underperforming on one spectrum (1v1) but over performing at the other (xv1). That's the definition of unbalanced. Getting hit by a single snipe/dark flare even in a 1v2 is incredibly difficult to deal with relative to any other common factor across classes. And this is not counting the situations when the 2 are equally skilled players, either individually or collectively.
@Kadoin I'm a mag sorc main btw. I could care less about Defile majority of my gameplay. But when I play on any other class, mag or stam, there is no threat as common or punishing as Major Defile.
These skills may be underperforming, but balancing them on a crutch is not real balance. Up their damage 10%, give them a bleed/magic DoT, decrease cast time whatever. Balance them by making the skill themselves useful/usable, not by slapping an over performing mechanic onto it
Is it underperforming? Or overperforming? It can't be both.
They can and he explained how.0 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭Dark flare. No
Snipe, absolutely.Please dont compare snipe to dark flare. Snipe hits harder and is harder to dodge. If a dark flare hit you, you were gonna die anyways.
It's not a direct comparison of the skills. It's an address to mechanics and the reasoning behind it. And yes,
.They literally just nerfed the defile on those skills... I also can't think of any skill that is easier to avoid or deal with than Dark Flare. Like seriously.
It is a difficult skill to land, and in a 1v1, it is not worth the skill slot. The only time these skills are actually effective are behind a zerg/group during an outnumbered situation. Sniping into a large zerg is incredibly ineffective and sniping into a large co-ordinated group is completely useless due to the amount of heals and purges going out.
IF Major Defile, THE strongest debuff in the game, is removed from these skills, it opens them up to be improved in every other aspect. This is what people fail to understand. And from a DPS perspective, the Major Fracture debuff is far more valuable.The_Outsider wrote: »
Whether a user is in a zerg or not is irrelevant to the power level of a skill. Anything used in a zerg is effective.
Major defile exists for good reason. Taking it off skills that are not over-performing is not a good idea, it needs to be easily accessible.
I'm not disagreeing with this, I completely agree. But easily accessible and easily spammable, especially on a high damage skill is a different story. The strongest debuff should require some form of effort to apply even from behind a zerg. Sitting back and 1 tapping a button is poor gameplay. Why not just make Reverb deal 14k tooltip damage? It requires the user to be in melee range, requires players to run the lowest dps stat weapons and spamming it reduces CC control. Make Frags a spammable. It deals relatively similar tooltip damage and is just as easy to avoid except it doesn't apply any debuff.
I've outlined the situations that it over performs as well as the situations that it under performs, which all the Defile supporters conveniently forgot. I've also explained that it is useless in zerg v zerg fight. The only time it is actually effective is in an outnumbered situation. Taking away Major Defile does not affect the skills effectiveness in large scale combat. It greatly decreases its effectiveness in xv1 and outnumbered situations but opens up the skill to be improved in situations such as 1v1 or 1vx. Try dueling with Snipe or Dark Flare as your primary damaging skill and then tell me the skill is balanced. Try using it just as utility. It's trash.
Slapping Major Defile on poorly balanced skills does not change the fact that they are poorly balanced skills. All it does is hinder small scale/solo,outnumbered players (already at a disadvantage) who, believe it or not, are also a factor when it comes to game balance. They do not need to be a primary factor, but the mere existence of resources clearly indicates that small scale/solo players are an intended existence in PvP and should be considered during balance.
For an example that everyone can relate too, Rune Cage needed to be removed. Most sorcs asked for the buff to not go through one patch and asked for the skill to be removed prior to the latest PTS. The fact that the skill is close to useless and the class is worse than 2 patches ago actually makes me happy. Why? Because now there is room for meaningful, effective and positive change for the class.
So why are people so adamant on defending skills that are completely useless in every situation besides outnumbered fights?
Do people really prefer having a skill that is only useful in situations where they already have every advantage but is useless when they actually need to rely on it? Why don't we balance the skill that to be useful across a broader spectrum of situations and not just when you can sit back and 1 tap?
I am asking for balance, what are you asking for?
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kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭My point is that anything spammed from a zerg is OP. Zergs make the power level of individual skills irrelevant. Light attacks spammed from a zerg are OP. The fact that Snipe and Dark Flare are only OP from a zerg is more an argument to buff them than nerf them IMO (I think most agree, these 2 are pretty [snip] for anything except ganking). Like others have said, these are 2 of the most telegraphed and easily countered abilities in the game-- it's logical that they have high damage and defile.
Additionally, removing defile from things is almost always never a good balance move. If you've been around long enough you remember the heal-tank metas where (mostly mPlars) were essentially un-killable. Healing was out of control. IMO, long Time to Kill, low damage, and heal/tank metas are the absolute most boring thing in existence and the worst thing that could happen to ESO.
Defile is essential to balance healing in Cyrodiil, and it needs to be available on a wide-range of ability types including high damage, telegraphed single target skills and low damage, melee CC sklls.
[Edit to remove profanity]Edited by [Deleted User] on November 13, 2021 12:04AM1 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'd be more on board with scaling back the Befoul champion star than removing Defile from these.2 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »I'd be more on board with scaling back the Befoul champion star than removing Defile from these.
And my point is, the skills are better served having Major Defile removed than leaving them on. It does nothing for large scale combat, won't be slotted for PvE purposes and is only useful for ganking. How are you ok with that?
So long as Lethal Arrow has Major Defile, it will never be properly addressed. A significant number of players are currently running Lethal Arrow because of how strong it is in outnumbered fights but no solo/small scale player is going to slot the skill unless they are ganking, experimenting or attempting to make bow/bow viable.
If the skill was balanced, anyone would be able to effectively run it, not just Cloak blades.
By extension, same logic applies to Dark Flare. It has the most powerful debuff in the game attached to it but is absolutely garbage to use. You can't increase the damage any further because it's too strong with Major Defile. You can't remove the channel because it has Major Defile. You can't reduce the cost because it won't affect the builds that use the skill in a meaningful way.
I played back when 1 player could tank a full zerg with minimal effort. Healbots are a problem but you don't solve a problem by introducing another one. And FYI, those healbots suffer the least from Major Defile. It's the builds that don't build to abuse cheese that suffer the most, specifically anything without a shield. So pretty much all of stamina and half of magicka builds.
The ones punished by Major Defile on these skills the most are solo/small scale players. As I said before, the Defile makes no difference in a zerg and we both agree that the skill is pretty useless 1v1 against an equally skilled player.
So why don't you answer the question: Do you really prefer having a skill that is only useful in situations where you already have every advantage but is useless when you actually need to rely on it?0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭First off no, that's silly.
Second, that would leave what... Two abilities that give major defile?
Yeah, that's 2 non ult abilities (reverb and seeds)
Then NB and DK ults
Then WW.
Nopers2 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »First off no, that's silly.
Second, that would leave what... Two abilities that give major defile?
Yeah, that's 2 non ult abilities (reverb and seeds)
Then NB and DK ults
Then WW.
Nopers
And 2 skills/passive that give Major Mending.
What's your point?
What builds will Major Defile on hard hitting skills hard counter? The blocking heal bots? Most of them build to deal with Major Defile or rely on co-ordinated group play for cleanse.
The builds that actually suffer the most from these band-aid fixes aren't even the builds that these band-aid fixes are meant to address.
Name one other single skill with an average tooltip of +14k that stunned and applied Major Defile. It's been said by others in this thread that these skills are mostly used by gankers, so yes the stun is included in this.0 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Someone stirred up the hornets' nest...Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel0
