Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

DK fossilize has range that require DK to stand on its target to cast it. Sorc stun has range slightly greater than distance between Earth and Jupiter. Also, this is actually a buff since if target does not break free in 2 sec it will also suffer damage from this skill.

Ok take rune cage in exchange for fossilize. How about that ?

I mean sure but most DKs would prefer Fossilize unless they suck

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

I don't think I've ever seen a DK in PvP running stonefist, but I guess that isn't your point. The problem with using stonefist or talons instead of fossilize is that powerlast requires a standard flame lash hit to proc. The stun from both stonefist and talons is a 1-off, i.e., you stun them, hit them while stunned immobilized to proc powerlash, then they break free/dodge and are either 1) out of range of lash because everyone is more mobile than DKs or 2) are able to dodge away, negating our powerlash. The beauty of fossilize is that it allows us to land our skill that's meant to be our damage dealer. The stun is ample time to proc powerlash, and the immobilize typically provides time for us to land it (rollie pollie stam blades are harder to hit with this, but they're pretty much a hard counter to everything about magDK - no reflectables, and incap/DBoS is the bane of our existence).

Ok, on to Zaan, I'll pretty much just leave it at this set is cheese and easy to get out of - a stam class can roll or sprint out of range, NBs can cloak out of it, sorcs can streak, and templars... well I actually don't know what they can do because I don't play one in PvP and honestly they seem kind of rare to come across in the first place. Nobody in PvP takes a full load of Zaan because everyone can escape poor-mobility DKs, and so as to elf bane, it's a trash set that is only used to buff one monster set (Zaan) because DKs rely on no other hard-hitting flame DOTs in PvP. Adding time to it is meaningless because nobody will be in range for that long - well, bad players might, but I'm not necessarily talking about them right now.

Oi, the passives. Ok, so the tankiness passives are no doubt our most useful - extra spell resist is nice. World in ruin benefits very few skills that see any use in PvP. The snare one (whatever it's called) was recently nerfed to only apply snare to targets hit with single-target abilities, and had the snare reduced. The resources on ult is 100% necessary for DKs because it is one of our primary sources of regen. Sure, it's a good passive, but without it, DKs would be unsustainably bad. Our passive set doesn't benefit us the way every other class's passives do, our passives just make us barely playable. That isn't an opinion, you simply won't see DKs at the top of leaderboards for PvP or PvE for that matter because every other class does better at everything, mostly thanks to the passives.

I agree that everyone needs to learn to play their classes. My main point is that people who are crying for DK nerfs are being ridiculous because this class has already been nerfed to nearly impossible levels of uselessness. I only keep at it because it's my main, and the rarity of DKs in PvP means people don't typically considering building to defend against us. A small benefit, but a benefit nonetheless.

You can break free and dodge roll any skill in the game. no experienced player is just going to stand there and let you beat on them. Mist form, fwd momentum, shuffle, retreating maneuver.

If someone drinks a potion you don't stand a chance against them? if you don't learn your class and you rely on one single skill you are going to have a hard time in pvp.

DK's don't have mobility and sorcs can just streak away?...you can chain yourself to anyone and keep them in range and night blades can spam stealth all they want to in your radiant magelight.

Fossilize doesn't need to be nerfed it is nerfed already by experienced players essentially one lil potion makes the class unplayable for some.

However one lil speed stam immovable potion on an argonian DK with infused jewelry and potion enchants could make the class very enjoyable. as it would "fix" mobility issues and resource sustain and allow you to go all out damage sets not to mention give you a high uptime on cc immunity and plenty of stam to dodge roll, sprint, and block.

#NerfArgonians

Hal_Moore wrote: »

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

I don't think I've ever seen a DK in PvP running stonefist, but I guess that isn't your point. The problem with using stonefist or talons instead of fossilize is that powerlast requires a standard flame lash hit to proc. The stun from both stonefist and talons is a 1-off, i.e., you stun them, hit them while stunned immobilized to proc powerlash, then they break free/dodge and are either 1) out of range of lash because everyone is more mobile than DKs or 2) are able to dodge away, negating our powerlash. The beauty of fossilize is that it allows us to land our skill that's meant to be our damage dealer. The stun is ample time to proc powerlash, and the immobilize typically provides time for us to land it (rollie pollie stam blades are harder to hit with this, but they're pretty much a hard counter to everything about magDK - no reflectables, and incap/DBoS is the bane of our existence).

Ok, on to Zaan, I'll pretty much just leave it at this set is cheese and easy to get out of - a stam class can roll or sprint out of range, NBs can cloak out of it, sorcs can streak, and templars... well I actually don't know what they can do because I don't play one in PvP and honestly they seem kind of rare to come across in the first place. Nobody in PvP takes a full load of Zaan because everyone can escape poor-mobility DKs, and so as to elf bane, it's a trash set that is only used to buff one monster set (Zaan) because DKs rely on no other hard-hitting flame DOTs in PvP. Adding time to it is meaningless because nobody will be in range for that long - well, bad players might, but I'm not necessarily talking about them right now.

Oi, the passives. Ok, so the tankiness passives are no doubt our most useful - extra spell resist is nice. World in ruin benefits very few skills that see any use in PvP. The snare one (whatever it's called) was recently nerfed to only apply snare to targets hit with single-target abilities, and had the snare reduced. The resources on ult is 100% necessary for DKs because it is one of our primary sources of regen. Sure, it's a good passive, but without it, DKs would be unsustainably bad. Our passive set doesn't benefit us the way every other class's passives do, our passives just make us barely playable. That isn't an opinion, you simply won't see DKs at the top of leaderboards for PvP or PvE for that matter because every other class does better at everything, mostly thanks to the passives.

I agree that everyone needs to learn to play their classes. My main point is that people who are crying for DK nerfs are being ridiculous because this class has already been nerfed to nearly impossible levels of uselessness. I only keep at it because it's my main, and the rarity of DKs in PvP means people don't typically considering building to defend against us. A small benefit, but a benefit nonetheless.

You can break free and dodge roll any skill in the game. no experienced player is just going to stand there and let you beat on them. Mist form, fwd momentum, shuffle, retreating maneuver.

If someone drinks a potion you don't stand a chance against them? if you don't learn your class and you rely on one single skill you are going to have a hard time in pvp.

DK's don't have mobility and sorcs can just streak away?...you can chain yourself to anyone and keep them in range and night blades can spam stealth all they want to in your radiant magelight.

Fossilize doesn't need to be nerfed it is nerfed already by experienced players essentially one lil potion makes the class unplayable for some.

However one lil speed stam immovable potion on an argonian DK with infused jewelry and potion enchants could make the class very enjoyable. as it would "fix" mobility issues and resource sustain and allow you to go all out damage sets not to mention give you a high uptime on cc immunity and plenty of stam to dodge roll, sprint, and block.

#NerfArgonians

Yes you can break free and then dodge roll. I am well aware. Of course no one is just going to sit there and let you hit them, but fossilize has the benefit for DKs of a double stamina drain. That is tremendously helpful against most mag classes, as they are obviously geared and specced for magicka, so their stam runs out much faster. When used against stamina players, it helps because it inhibits their ability to go offensive and defensive at the same time, as rolling out of immobilize (right after breaking free) increases the cost of more dodge rolling, so they then have to make a tactical decision - do I keep rolling to safety, or try and get some offensive skills out? That is helpful to DKs, and it pretty much the strongest pressure we can apply to stam toons.

I never said that DKs don't stand a chance against someone who has CC immunity. That would obviously be ridiculous. When someone has CC immunity, out DOTs still hit, our whips still hit (albeit not as hard, since we can't drop a power lash on them), and our snares can still be applied to keep people (somewhat) in attack range. The issue is that our main damage-dealing abilities are much more effective when a hard CC is properly utilized, and in the absence of a class execute, it actually does become tremendously difficult to be competitive against competent players who are managing their CC immunity well. That is called counterplay, and I am fine with that existing.

Chains is a good offensive mobility skill, but defensively, DKs have some of the worst mobility in game. Here are some handy charts to highlight that statement:

Masel92 wrote: »

Class Rating Statistics (380 Entries):

for clarification: these are not the basis of the feedback we provided to the devs, these are supplemental. These are meant to provide the PERCEPTION of players onto how certain classes and specs perform in certain aspects of the game. If you disagree with anything you see here, then the best thing you can do is to simply do an entry yourself and include your own perception to counter it.

Link to the form:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfXLak8XM1xrojAcnMZ8PZmU35DUZjruoh7RC2zTSrHDQuq1Q/viewform

We agree that fossilize does not need to be nerfed. My only problem with what you are saying is that good DK players don't use it, and that perplexes me because I can't see why you don't recognize the merit of one of the strongest CC abilities in the game, and why it's useful to one of the least-capable burst-damage classes which also lacks an execute. No doubt, it might be more "skillful" if a player left it off their bar, but why bother? You could make the same argument of "skill" about a player who uses trash sets or forgoes a monster set for an artificial challenge. Would you be happier if DKs all switched to stonefist or flame reach because it's dodgeable and therefore requires more "skill" to land? It's the same thing, a CC that allows DKs access to an ability proc that is the most powerful non-ult we have. The difference is that fossilize is much more reliable and works in the range that DKs largely try to fight in, so why take the risk with a reflected/blocked/dodged stonefist or flame reach (the long range of which are actually a bit detrimental to DKs, as there will need to be a GCD to cast chains to actually get to your now-stunned target, or stamina expenditure to run over to them, all giving them time to break free and negate your powerlash proc)?

EDIT: TL;DR you said that fossilize is a crutch that skilled players don't use, but I would argue that it is an incredibly useful tool that you would have to be daft to not use.

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

Hal_Moore wrote: »

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

I don't think I've ever seen a DK in PvP running stonefist, but I guess that isn't your point. The problem with using stonefist or talons instead of fossilize is that powerlast requires a standard flame lash hit to proc. The stun from both stonefist and talons is a 1-off, i.e., you stun them, hit them while stunned immobilized to proc powerlash, then they break free/dodge and are either 1) out of range of lash because everyone is more mobile than DKs or 2) are able to dodge away, negating our powerlash. The beauty of fossilize is that it allows us to land our skill that's meant to be our damage dealer. The stun is ample time to proc powerlash, and the immobilize typically provides time for us to land it (rollie pollie stam blades are harder to hit with this, but they're pretty much a hard counter to everything about magDK - no reflectables, and incap/DBoS is the bane of our existence).

Ok, on to Zaan, I'll pretty much just leave it at this set is cheese and easy to get out of - a stam class can roll or sprint out of range, NBs can cloak out of it, sorcs can streak, and templars... well I actually don't know what they can do because I don't play one in PvP and honestly they seem kind of rare to come across in the first place. Nobody in PvP takes a full load of Zaan because everyone can escape poor-mobility DKs, and so as to elf bane, it's a trash set that is only used to buff one monster set (Zaan) because DKs rely on no other hard-hitting flame DOTs in PvP. Adding time to it is meaningless because nobody will be in range for that long - well, bad players might, but I'm not necessarily talking about them right now.

Oi, the passives. Ok, so the tankiness passives are no doubt our most useful - extra spell resist is nice. World in ruin benefits very few skills that see any use in PvP. The snare one (whatever it's called) was recently nerfed to only apply snare to targets hit with single-target abilities, and had the snare reduced. The resources on ult is 100% necessary for DKs because it is one of our primary sources of regen. Sure, it's a good passive, but without it, DKs would be unsustainably bad. Our passive set doesn't benefit us the way every other class's passives do, our passives just make us barely playable. That isn't an opinion, you simply won't see DKs at the top of leaderboards for PvP or PvE for that matter because every other class does better at everything, mostly thanks to the passives.

I agree that everyone needs to learn to play their classes. My main point is that people who are crying for DK nerfs are being ridiculous because this class has already been nerfed to nearly impossible levels of uselessness. I only keep at it because it's my main, and the rarity of DKs in PvP means people don't typically considering building to defend against us. A small benefit, but a benefit nonetheless.

You can break free and dodge roll any skill in the game. no experienced player is just going to stand there and let you beat on them. Mist form, fwd momentum, shuffle, retreating maneuver.

If someone drinks a potion you don't stand a chance against them? if you don't learn your class and you rely on one single skill you are going to have a hard time in pvp.

DK's don't have mobility and sorcs can just streak away?...you can chain yourself to anyone and keep them in range and night blades can spam stealth all they want to in your radiant magelight.

Fossilize doesn't need to be nerfed it is nerfed already by experienced players essentially one lil potion makes the class unplayable for some.

However one lil speed stam immovable potion on an argonian DK with infused jewelry and potion enchants could make the class very enjoyable. as it would "fix" mobility issues and resource sustain and allow you to go all out damage sets not to mention give you a high uptime on cc immunity and plenty of stam to dodge roll, sprint, and block.

#NerfArgonians

Yes you can break free and then dodge roll. I am well aware. Of course no one is just going to sit there and let you hit them, but fossilize has the benefit for DKs of a double stamina drain. That is tremendously helpful against most mag classes, as they are obviously geared and specced for magicka, so their stam runs out much faster. When used against stamina players, it helps because it inhibits their ability to go offensive and defensive at the same time, as rolling out of immobilize (right after breaking free) increases the cost of more dodge rolling, so they then have to make a tactical decision - do I keep rolling to safety, or try and get some offensive skills out? That is helpful to DKs, and it pretty much the strongest pressure we can apply to stam toons.

I never said that DKs don't stand a chance against someone who has CC immunity. That would obviously be ridiculous. When someone has CC immunity, out DOTs still hit, our whips still hit (albeit not as hard, since we can't drop a power lash on them), and our snares can still be applied to keep people (somewhat) in attack range. The issue is that our main damage-dealing abilities are much more effective when a hard CC is properly utilized, and in the absence of a class execute, it actually does become tremendously difficult to be competitive against competent players who are managing their CC immunity well. That is called counterplay, and I am fine with that existing.

Chains is a good offensive mobility skill, but defensively, DKs have some of the worst mobility in game. Here are some handy charts to highlight that statement:

Masel92 wrote: »

Class Rating Statistics (380 Entries):

for clarification: these are not the basis of the feedback we provided to the devs, these are supplemental. These are meant to provide the PERCEPTION of players onto how certain classes and specs perform in certain aspects of the game. If you disagree with anything you see here, then the best thing you can do is to simply do an entry yourself and include your own perception to counter it.

Link to the form:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfXLak8XM1xrojAcnMZ8PZmU35DUZjruoh7RC2zTSrHDQuq1Q/viewform

We agree that fossilize does not need to be nerfed. My only problem with what you are saying is that good DK players don't use it, and that perplexes me because I can't see why you don't recognize the merit of one of the strongest CC abilities in the game, and why it's useful to one of the least-capable burst-damage classes which also lacks an execute. No doubt, it might be more "skillful" if a player left it off their bar, but why bother? You could make the same argument of "skill" about a player who uses trash sets or forgoes a monster set for an artificial challenge. Would you be happier if DKs all switched to stonefist or flame reach because it's dodgeable and therefore requires more "skill" to land? It's the same thing, a CC that allows DKs access to an ability proc that is the most powerful non-ult we have. The difference is that fossilize is much more reliable and works in the range that DKs largely try to fight in, so why take the risk with a reflected/blocked/dodged stonefist or flame reach (the long range of which are actually a bit detrimental to DKs, as there will need to be a GCD to cast chains to actually get to your now-stunned target, or stamina expenditure to run over to them, all giving them time to break free and negate your powerlash proc)?

EDIT: TL;DR you said that fossilize is a crutch that skilled players don't use, but I would argue that it is an incredibly useful tool that you would have to be daft to not use.

Fossilize should be changed to the following:
Old:
Encase an enemy in stone, stunning them for 2.5 seconds. When the stun ends, they take [942 / 952 / 963 / 973] Magic Damage and are immobilized for 3 seconds. This stun cannot be blocked or dodged.
New:
Encase an enemy in stone, stunning them for 2 seconds. When the stun ends, they take [942 / 952 / 963 / 973] Magic Damage .This stun cannot be blocked.

Do you see what I did here ?

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

When used against stamina players, it helps because it inhibits their ability to go offensive and defensive at the same time, as rolling out of immobilize (right after breaking free) increases the cost of more dodge rolling, so they then have to make a tactical decision - do I keep rolling to safety, or try and get some offensive skills out?

After using break free if they have the CP passive unchained the cost of their next stam ability used within 5 secs is reduced by 80% meaning they can fwd momentum, shuffle, retreating maneuver almost for free they don't have to dodge roll.

Fossilize is single target Talons is better, fossilize stuns witch means you can't use it if they have cc immunity Talons doesn't and can be used without worry.

If you pay attention to your bar during battle most of the time fossilize cannot be used making it a waste of space on your bar when you can slot more useful skills instead of that one skill that will kill you that noob. DK's run around spamming it and don't want it to be nerfed witch is fine.

There are many different setups and play styles not only for DK's but for all classes and it shouldn't be perplexing to understand not every build or playstyle is the same


I am not for nerfing the skill it is great but at the same time i consider it cheese especially when it is spammed around the battlefield by zerg players... one person running around spamming fossilize isn't skill. neither is relying heavily on it to get a kill.


Edit: regarding stonefist, you asked me a question and i answered. . . I don't use it personally as i don't rely on stuns.

Jhalin wrote: »

MagSorcs are the most self absorbed class tbh

Templar and magdens over in the corner quietly mourning their class spec

Meanwhile sorcs are crying over their thousand yard cc being avoidable and not lasting 5 years anymore. Also somehow they’re complaining NBs haven’t gotten any nerfs yet NBs got a few just this patch and quietly accepted them because fair enough

Nightblades got 2 insanely minor nerfs this patch. That's really it.

If Templars and Wardens are upset they need to raise a fuss. The only way to get anything done is to cause an uproar on the forums. If they want to sit down and shut up, that's their prerogative.

Sorcs are also not just crying about Rune Cage. That's the problem with all of you people...no one sees the overarching issue of Sorc being nerfed in countless ways since the release of the game.

They have been nerfed and gutted so much that if a Sorc from the launch of the game saw the current state of Sorc compared to theirs they would probably legitimately cry and reroll early.

But hey, we're OP right? (We're not)

Hal_Moore wrote: »

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

When used against stamina players, it helps because it inhibits their ability to go offensive and defensive at the same time, as rolling out of immobilize (right after breaking free) increases the cost of more dodge rolling, so they then have to make a tactical decision - do I keep rolling to safety, or try and get some offensive skills out?

After using break free if they have the CP passive unchained the cost of their next stam ability used within 5 secs is reduced by 80% meaning they can fwd momentum, shuffle, retreating maneuver almost for free they don't have to dodge roll.

Fossilize is single target Talons is better, fossilize stuns witch means you can't use it if they have cc immunity Talons doesn't and can be used without worry.

If you pay attention to your bar during battle most of the time fossilize cannot be used making it a waste of space on your bar when you can slot more useful skills instead of that one skill that will kill you that noob. DK's run around spamming it and don't want it to be nerfed witch is fine.

There are many different setups and play styles not only for DK's but for all classes and it shouldn't be perplexing to understand not every build or playstyle is the same


I am not for nerfing the skill it is great but at the same time i consider it cheese especially when it is spammed around the battlefield by zerg players... one person running around spamming fossilize isn't skill. neither is relying heavily on it to get a kill.


Edit: regarding stonefist, you asked me a question and i answered. . . I don't use it personally as i don't rely on stuns.

Ah, I see. I only PvP in battlegrounds, so CP passives don't take effect. But even in that case, the root at the end of fossilize is still quite useful (but I don't think we disagree on that) because it still requires a dodge roll to break out of. I also would disagree that talons is better, because the stun from fossilize is invaluable. Talons certainly works, but your opponents can still cast while rooted, but the hard stun really sets them back. It's quite nice for obvious reasons.

Also, in the battlegrounds that I play in, fossilize is definitely not greyed out for most of a fight. It's a skill that comes in handy very often for me. Perhaps in open-world (I assume that's what you play since you talk about CP passives), perhaps it's different but I wouldn't know.

Yes, I recognize that many different setups and playstyles exist, but my question was more of a specific "what do YOU do?" than a "there are other options?" I'm genuinely curious in how you run your magDK, as an avid proponent of the class, I always like to know what other magDKs are doing. Perhaps even for my own implementation at some point. Knowledge is power.

Yes, one person spamming one ability isn't skill, but that applies to anything. Running around spamming force pulse or flame reach isn't skill, but I don't think it constitutes labeling said skill as "cheese." Especially since (if someone is merely spamming fossilize) the damage associated with it is negligible and (as you said) it gives you CC immunity anyway, so it should probably be among the least annoying abilities for unskilled players to be spamming. Relying on any skill for all of your kills is also obviously ineffective - you'd be a one-trick-pony in that situation. I hope I haven't implied that I can't survive without fossilize, as that is certainly not the case, my argument is and has always been that the skill is quite useful in many situations. If your build doesn't utilize it, that is obviously fine, whatever floats your boat. But my build uses it when I can, and it synergizes well with the lash-powerlash combo, and combined with meteor and skoria procs, gives me the only sense of real burst-yness I've been able to get out of this class. It works for me, but do whatever works for you. I would just appreciate it if you wouldn't write off my style as "unskilled" - it comes off as extremely pretentious and implies that I don't know what I'm doing without actually having seen it performed.

And thank you for answering my question on stonefist.

EDIT: And just out of pure curiosity, as a magDK who doesn't rely on stuns, what are your primary damage-dealing skills? I've only really seen magDKs in PvP who use crowd control options heavily, so I would love to know about what your build consists of that works for you. Thanks!

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

U have been hit? Wow. Use shieldstacking. Also, ur streak breaks roots.

thats still two skills I need to use break freee, and streak, to get out of fossilizes

if they nerf sorcs only viable cc ingame, they should give fossilizes the same treatment

I am a sorc main, and could you stop this? it's hurting my feelins. I have Mines, Encase, rune cage, streak, Attro stun and pet stun. No. Rune Cage was not and is not our only CC. L2P.

And the Rune Cage "nerf" was a buff... as no idiot would ever sit in rune cage for 3,5sec. But reducing time before it breaks (and does dmg) too 2sec, you might actually have someone sitting it out

but please, continue crying. Them tears are sweet xD

Clearly not a sorc main lol

wait what?! I've played Sorc Exclusive since I started this game while it was still a subscribtion based game. So because I know my class better than you I dont main said class? WTF this forum realy o_O