Valrien wrote: »

Malacthulhu wrote: »

Or just add another class if they are gonna go to that effort and bc essentially that is what you are talking about. You are also basically killing the class it is now just for the sake of pvp content, hasn't the pve community suffered enough of this sillydillness? The trend needs to stop. How about we start nightblade from scratch bc I don't like how it handles in delves. A class not preforming how you want in the content you play does not merit in my opinion a complete rework. I get it rune cage was nerfed boohoo creating a new class won't bring it back lol.

It's not fun in PvE anymore though either. It has a 4-skill rotation.

I basically just disagree with deleting class and starting again from scratch. It is a good starter class for beginners or people with disability issues in regards to using more complicated roatations. I do agree the class can be improved, they all can. Should sorc be at the top of the list for getting that kind of attention? I doubt it, but I could be wrong. You can at least play around with different builds in pve that offer different levels of challenge or a different class with a more complicated rotation especially where you are at the point of hit the delete button on it.

Valrien wrote: »

Malacthulhu wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Malacthulhu wrote: »

Or just add another class if they are gonna go to that effort and bc essentially that is what you are talking about. You are also basically killing the class it is now just for the sake of pvp content, hasn't the pve community suffered enough of this sillydillness? The trend needs to stop. How about we start nightblade from scratch bc I don't like how it handles in delves. A class not preforming how you want in the content you play does not merit in my opinion a complete rework. I get it rune cage was nerfed boohoo creating a new class won't bring it back lol.

It's not fun in PvE anymore though either. It has a 4-skill rotation.

I basically just disagree with deleting class and starting again from scratch. It is a good starter class for beginners or people with disability issues in regards to using more complicated roatations. I do agree the class can be improved, they all can. Should sorc be at the top of the list for getting that kind of attention? I doubt it, but I could be wrong. You can at least play around with different builds in pve that offer different levels of challenge or a different class with a more complicated rotation especially where you are at the point of hit the delete button on it.

The thing about the rotation is there isn't really any more rotations to try. In PvE there isn't a lot of "let's try this." It's "do x and get y DPS." That's kinda just how it is.

Templar and Sorc should be at the top of the list in terms of reworks because their status as "nerf sponge" has just left them as sad husks. If there's no rework though, I believe the 2 changes that would go the furthest for Sorcs are removing the stacked cost on Bolt Escape and stun back on Frags, along with the hefty damage buff it used to have (there was honestly 0 reason to nerf frags). That would add back more of the classic Sorc playstyle that many people used to deeply love. Warden I believe can still be saved with some tweaks though...I don't think they need a full rework.

I think when they decide to completely rework an ability they should just offer up the rework as a third morph and evaluate the useage. If they have strong faith in the change it should hold up. This is also an easier way to test it bc the old stays on live etc adds another phase to process that would improve and identify problems. Not in all cases but, that is where I disagree with how they chose to handle balancing as it is more of a reactive system then a proactive one. It tends to develop a feddback loop of the same patern which is bad in a reactive system.
Yes, I agree with you on those points about abilities.

Magic is waning... I can sense our connection to Aethirius is fading... soon magic will be gone from this world. It is sad really.

I think op is confusing Sorc with Wardens...

The problem you describe is littered through this thread i'm afraid OP, the views on Sorc are all over the place and miss your point on where they are positioned (which is your whole point! Such as the posters saying Sorc are crying because they are losing Cage, Sorcs arent - they pointed out it was OP on PTS and ZOS didnt listen, just like they pointed out Frag nerf gutted the class - which it did. The point of the Cage nerf is it puts us back WORSE than we were at a bad time. Thats the point.

But OP, people wont get you. And I do get the concept of what you are saying, have I got the energy for a complete overhaul of everything - i'm not sure - i've Mained Sorc from launch but do I want some of the fun back and enjoyable aspects to the class yes.

Anyone moaning about Sorcs in PvP post U19 really isnt very good, anyone saying Sorc's top PvE clearly hasnt seen the DPS MagBlades put out. Its like a noob filter watching for anti-sorc comments now.

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Just scrap Sorc as a whole entirely as it is and give them a fresh start. Rework it from the ground up and make it feel like it's actually got it's own playstyle again because as things are...they're frankly much worse off than they were at launch.

It feels like a shell of it's former self where playstyle is concerned. Regardless of whether people feel they are OP or not...Sorcerer just isn't as fun as it used to be.

In terms of balance, it has it's place as a noob killer...the sheer amount of burst it does floors new players and makes them call for nerfs before they fully understand why they're dying.

But I don't want to be a noob killer. I want to be able to kill all types of players in a fair fight that is not one-sided (except Nightblades. They haven't seen a "fair" fight in years and they probably won't ever...but I digress) and be killed by them too.

I guess what I'm saying is this:

Sorc goes through periods of being OP, underpowered, and "just right." But when ZOS hits that "just right" they tend to get nerfed because "just right" for the class FEELS OP when it truly isn't. At this point I'd love for Sorc to just be rebuilt, and give every Sorc out there a class change token that they can choose to use or not use due to the massive rework of their skills.

I don't truly care if Sorc is balanced. It has already been shown that they're either going to be OP or useless and rarely in between...so I just want them to feel good to play again like they did in their hayday.

Already ZOs is working on how to nerf sorc in next patch asking ideas to class representatives. They wont give *** to magic sorc. All Mag sorcs ask for class change token. Thats the only way to get out of this mess or abandon ESO. Any suggestion is waste of time. ESO exists only to nerf sorc. Ask any noob here to win dueling tournament with magic sorc , who is telling sorc is overpowered. These noob liars are nothing when compared to sypher or kodi standards.
Even sypher or kodi cannot do it , when sorc at its prime.
Bunch of noob liars who shamelessly lie sorc is overpowered now . These noobs cannot kill without a cheese and never look for competitive game play.
All bunch of noob liars , win a dueling tournament with magic sorc and come to comment in forums. No one wants your pathetic noob lies.

Main problem is ZOs themselves doesn't consider class balance seriously. If they did, they would conduct dueling tournaments and balance classes based on real factual data. All they did was introducing more cheese into the game , by biased opinions.

you forgot to say pay to win

Kram8ion wrote: »

What's that special code for sorcs in your character slot screen that goes R1 L1 ..... or something idk but Ithat may help

Oh yes, the famous Overload bar. Really helpful when most of Sorcs toolkit is found in weapon skills and the Ultimate isn't that good anymore, eh?

Lasinagol wrote: »

Think it was a deletion joke...try different things for the hell of it...a werewolf msorc...

Never once used Runecage, personaly...might have been why I died hundreds of times in PvP, lol.

Are you, Valrien, talking about changing things to ice instead of lightning? Boundless Frost type reimagining?

There's already a Frost class. Lightning is perfectly adequate for Sorc...but to put it simply they have a fair number of useless skills and the number is growing with each patch. Mostly passives. They honestly need almost a whole new set of passives.

Active skill changes I'd like to see:
-Obviously un-nerf Bolt Escape and Crystal Frags. Return them to their original state. They do not deserve their current nerfs anymore

-The passives are a huge issue. For example, split between 2 passives Sorc gets 10% magicka rec, 20% stam, 20% health. Nightblades get 15% to each recovery in one passive. Sorc has to slot Bound Aegis to get 8% Max Magicka, a skill which has no other functional use. Nightblade can get the same Magicka from any Siphoning ability, and any of them are more useful than Bound Aegis.

-Encase should be changed to a circular range similar to Talons or the range should be made larger to ensure everything is trapped. This would add a decent PvP skill to our toolkit to add some variation to our playstyle and also add a bit more oomph to Sorc tanking

-With Frags being reverted, I'd like to see Rune Cage be changed up. I'd like to see Sorc get a DoT or an in-class spammable to Synergize with the Blood Magic passive so the slot that Rune Cage takes up could function as that.

-Bound Armor should be reworked as a passive in place of Expert Summoner or Daedric Protection and have the passive it replaces be combined with another one. To balance this, the values should be slightly reduced (5% magicka, 5% stamina, and 10% light attack damage would be great even if the LA damage was only physical. Stam Sorcs don't deserve more nerfing). The slot that BA takes up could also be used as something else. A third pet, a DoT, etc. Another interesting idea would be to remove the Light Attack damage from the passive and turn Bound Armor into Bound Weapon to buff Light Attack damage by 10-15% for x seconds. This could even potentially count as a pet for Expert Summoner. Rebate is also useless so that would be another option for Bound Armor to take up.

-Mages' Fury should have a PvE morph and PvP morph. The delay does nothing for PvE sorcs really, so it would be much nicer to have a skill that simply does more initial damage and does X00% more damage below a target threshold, and then have the other morph be the regular burst delay for PvP burst.

-The Storm Calling tree is solid, wouldn't change much else there, but I might personally raise the proc threshold of it to 20% on par with Mages' Fury, but that's more of an OCD thing.

Sorc atm feels almost entirely like a watered-down Magblade. I just think it needs to revert back to it's older playstyle and get a few more things that set it apart from the rest of the classes. The biggest plague to ESO right now is the line between each class is becoming more and more blurred between each patch. Back in the old days of PvP each class had it's own niche, and it's own counters and it was great

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Just scrap Sorc as a whole entirely as it is and give them a fresh start. Rework it from the ground up and make it feel like it's actually got it's own playstyle again because as things are...they're frankly much worse off than they were at launch.

It feels like a shell of it's former self where playstyle is concerned. Regardless of whether people feel they are OP or not...Sorcerer just isn't as fun as it used to be.

In terms of balance, it has it's place as a noob killer...the sheer amount of burst it does floors new players and makes them call for nerfs before they fully understand why they're dying.

But I don't want to be a noob killer. I want to be able to kill all types of players in a fair fight that is not one-sided (except Nightblades. They haven't seen a "fair" fight in years and they probably won't ever...but I digress) and be killed by them too.

I guess what I'm saying is this:

Sorc goes through periods of being OP, underpowered, and "just right." But when ZOS hits that "just right" they tend to get nerfed because "just right" for the class FEELS OP when it truly isn't. At this point I'd love for Sorc to just be rebuilt, and give every Sorc out there a class change token that they can choose to use or not use due to the massive rework of their skills.

I don't truly care if Sorc is balanced. It has already been shown that they're either going to be OP or useless and rarely in between...so I just want them to feel good to play again like they did in their hayday.

Already ZOs is working on how to nerf sorc in next patch asking ideas to class representatives. They wont give *** to magic sorc. All Mag sorcs ask for class change token. Thats the only way to get out of this mess or abandon ESO. Any suggestion is waste of time. ESO exists only to nerf sorc. Ask any noob here to win dueling tournament with magic sorc , who is telling sorc is overpowered. These noob liars are nothing when compared to sypher or kodi standards.
Even sypher or kodi cannot do it , when sorc at its prime.
Bunch of noob liars who shamelessly lie sorc is overpowered now . These noobs cannot kill without a cheese and never look for competitive game play.
All bunch of noob liars , win a dueling tournament with magic sorc and come to comment in forums. No one wants your pathetic noob lies.

Main problem is ZOs themselves doesn't consider class balance seriously. If they did, they would conduct dueling tournaments and balance classes based on real factual data. All they did was introducing more cheese into the game , by biased opinions.

Just LEL man.

BeefyMrTips wrote: »

Just give us siphoning strikes on sorc and we will call it good=) sustain in PVE world is trash on a sorc hence why we cant DPS the amount of Magblades

There are multiple reasons. I would say they have more access to useful skills and their passives work with their skills exceptionally well are two of the biggest reasons.

Even if Sorc has infinite sustain their DPS will only go so high.

BeefyMrTips wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

BeefyMrTips wrote: »

Just give us siphoning strikes on sorc and we will call it good=) sustain in PVE world is trash on a sorc hence why we cant DPS the amount of Magblades

There are multiple reasons. I would say they have more access to useful skills and their passives work with their skills exceptionally well are two of the biggest reasons.

Even if Sorc has infinite sustain their DPS will only go so high.

Idk, If I had access to a rotation where heavy attacks did not come into play as much as they do now, Id be throwing out at least twice as many frags. We have pretty decent passives as well, I don't think they are as good but still pretty decent. My dps raises significantly when I have access to replenishing abilities from others. I even have a different roto for group parses and have monstrous difference beyond the usual group buff expected increase and what not. If I go up 8-10 thousand in group parse vs solo on my mnb, then I go up 10-12 on sorc from solo to group. Now if sorcs still running solo roto in group parse then they are missing out and wont see same increase

Magblade is still a solid 10k DPS above any other class regardless, Sorc in it's current state will never do as much.

Iirc the only reason people even bring Sorcs is so they can provide Spell Crit to 7 Nightblades and increase Concussion uptime with Liquid

Temps do just as much DPS as Sorc last I checked, but the healers already provide the Minor Sorcery buff so DPS Templars are unnecessary.

BeefyMrTips wrote: »

I agree in its current state, they have the spectral bow that can only proc every 5 right? We have frags with a potential every 1-2 abilities proccing it. The bow is the cornerstone to ever magblade which is why higher parsing mnb have a 5 ability roto always hitting that bow. The reason they are that much better is because they are allowed to have a roto that focuses on that, sorcs cant have a roto with a focus on frags because at some point a sorc has to grit their teeth and heavy attack roto instead. Sustain may not fix us completely, but it would be a huge step in the right direction

The thing about Frags is that it's random. You can't plan for Frags. You can plan for Focus.

BeefyMrTips wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

BeefyMrTips wrote: »

I agree in its current state, they have the spectral bow that can only proc every 5 right? We have frags with a potential every 1-2 abilities proccing it. The bow is the cornerstone to ever magblade which is why higher parsing mnb have a 5 ability roto always hitting that bow. The reason they are that much better is because they are allowed to have a roto that focuses on that, sorcs cant have a roto with a focus on frags because at some point a sorc has to grit their teeth and heavy attack roto instead. Sustain may not fix us completely, but it would be a huge step in the right direction

The thing about Frags is that it's random. You can't plan for Frags. You can plan for Focus.

I agree but that concept goes hand in hand with the idea of mothers sorrow being viable. On a small pull, you are absolutely correct, but from a large enough base to pull from I.E. 6 Mil, Group parse, and Trial Boss fights it would validate itself. And if RNGesus is on your side might strongly outperform a mnb

If that was the case then there would be top Sorc parses bigger than top NB parses. But in every one I'm seen the NB is anywhere from 5-10k+ ahead.

Bam_Bam wrote: »

Lmao. I'm sure the people who have had their sorcs since 2014 will fully endorse this idea....

That's kind of the point

Somewhere wrote: »

Just get rid of this stupid passive and replace it with something that's more useful.

This applies to the majority of Sorc passives

Especially when compared to NB passives