It’s actually “albeit” just for future referencepaulsimonps wrote: »the other has a 4s duration before giving the 3s stun all be it with no channel attached to it.
MerlinPendragon wrote: »I like that DKs are the "top tank" and I wouldn't want other classes brought up to their level.
For one, we need more differentiation amongst the classes, not less. I'm opposed to any idea that every class should be able to perform every role just as good as the next. Turning this game into a vanilla 'everyone has everything' type game will be it's down fall.
Furthermore, with the constant CP increases this year, there has been major amount of power creep in this game that has destroyed difficulty. To bring all other classes up in tanking power to do as well a DK just continues the power creep in the wrong direction.
Abilities which are useful across the spectrum of the game. Especially the tanking weapon skill ine - 1handed.
Is Ransack preferable to Pierce Armor? No, firstly it only buffs physical damage and secondly it does not outweigh potentially boosting damage to 12 people in a PVE group not 30 people in a PvP group. Rubbish morph, utter rubbish.
Is Deep slash a good alternative to Heroic Slash? Let's see: in a trash fight it >may< be but trash is trash so who cares? Let's look at a boss fight. 1 target. Deep Slash is utterly useless as a morph in a boss fight. So you forget the trash fight benefit and always go for Heroic slash. Again, rubbish morph.
Is Absorb Magic better than Defensive Stance? Let's look. You get hit with a 30k magicka spell. You absorb 4500 of that, still being hit by 25,000 and THEN heal yourself for 5-8k HP. Or you reflect the spell 100% AND damage AND stun the enemy in turn. Rubbish morph.
The ulti is not desirable when compared to the OP state of war horn.
Silver Leash. What a god awful addition. Is this of any use to a boss trial tank? Absolutely not. Does it need to be used in dungeons? Absolutely not. But it makes lives for EVERYONE ELSE easier so its constantly expected to be slotted.
Silver_Strider wrote: »Speaking plainly, you'll need a complete reworking of some abilities and well as adjusting skill lines in order to give each class its own unique spin on abilities that also make them viable for each role. I want my NB tank to play differently from my Warden or DK Tank but currently, my opinions for doing so are heavily restricted to outside sources since my Class Skills are meh for Tanking.
I've been thinking up a somewhat controversial reworking of skills and skill lines for NB to somewhat alter how they play and while some ideas could be more thought out, I'll just throw them out and accept the potential hatred.
Assassination:
- Soul Harvest: Add a 2 second Silence effect to enemies hit by this ability. Loses out on the Ultimate Regen bonuses.
- Assassin's Blade: Moved to the 3rd skill in the skill line to make way for Veiled Strike to come to Assassination.
- Blur: Moved to Shadow Line. Minor Resolve/Ward added to base effect. Morph options are to deal damage to enemies after a successful dodge or after casting, the next ability you use is free.
- Mark Target: Reworked the skill entirely and moved to Siphoning Skill Line to make room for Cripple. MT now provides Minor Lifesteal, with Morphs applying Minor Magic Steal or Major Maim for a few seconds upon activation. Removed Major Fracture/Breech as well as the burst heal from it and greatly reduced the cost to be around the 1200 range. No longer reveals invisible enemies but I'll explain that later.
- Master Assassin: Changed into just a passive buff for having an Assassination ability slotted.
- Executioner: Applies on activation of an Assassination ability. 1 second CD.
Shadow:
- Consuming Darkness: Does damage as a base effect. 1 morph follows the NB, while the other has increased range and duration.
- Shadow Cloak: Remove invisibility as an effect entirely. Tank heal becomes the new base effect with 1 morph turning it into a Burst Heal with a small damage shield while the other extends the duration of the HoT + Minor Protection.
- Path of Darkness: Now has a synergy for some extra damage. Twisting Path will now scale on Max Health and apply Minor Fracture/Breech with the synergy instead of extra damage.
- Fear: Changed into a Mind bend abilities that draws enemies towards the NB. One morph remains a fear effect while the other gets Minor Maim.
- Dark Shade: Roots enemies hit by the AoE.
Siphoning:
- Soul Siphon: Reduced cost
- Cripple: Moved to Assassination for Mark Target. Debilitate is now a Stamina Morph. Loses resource return effect.
- Shrewd Offering: Applies a HoT effect to the Target
- Power Drain: Heal applied as base effect. Power Extraction gets a radius increase while Sap Essence refunds some of the cost per enemy hit.
Before people start tearing these suggestions to shreds, I main NB. I understand the result of losing Cloak will be difficult for some players to handle but I personally feel that, at this point in time, Cloak has resulted in NB's being held back severely in all other areas not labeled DPS. We have little to no group support, we have terrible sustain as Tanks, no anything outside of sneaking and ganking. Yes, we have the highest DPS output of all the classes but that's a numbers issue that ZOS would have to adjust themselves and these are largely just suggestions to help give NBs a more unique take on their class to have them play functionally different from DK or Warden while still being able to play the same role.
I would suggest changes to Templar and Sorc toolkits as well but I'm not knowledgeable enough in either class to make in depth suggestions on either one so I'll just leave it at this.
John_Falstaff wrote: »@MerlinPendragon , I have to disagree with that. If that was in place from the start, maybe; now, it's too late for such turn. People were promised "play as you like" doctrine, and characters are created with expectation that they can excel at everything. There is no upfront warning during character creation that, by choosing a certain class, one will be pigeonholed into certain role and will have to create new character to become a viable DD instead of tank, or vice versa.
Instead, I would rather have classes designed in ways that would both allow them excel at every role (preferably in own unique ways), and scale better with player skill, not capped by capabilities of certain class. I'm a DK main, and I would even accept a nerf to Engulfing Flames (some people call for that) if it allowed the class to get rid of tank stereotype.
MerlinPendragon wrote: »I like that DKs are the "top tank" and I wouldn't want other classes brought up to their level.
For one, we need more differentiation amongst the classes, not less. I'm opposed to any idea that every class should be able to perform every role just as good as the next. Turning this game into a vanilla 'everyone has everything' type game will be it's down fall.
Furthermore, with the constant CP increases this year, there has been major amount of power creep in this game that has destroyed difficulty. To bring all other classes up in tanking power to do as well a DK just continues the power creep in the wrong direction.
Another thing that all tanks should have is an HP% based heal. Currently templars are missing one. This leads to Templars who are gearing as traditional tanks being unable to keep themselves alive on anything that hits harder than a wet noodle if the healer is distracted. And non-traditional mag tanks have such low HP that there is no room for error.
With the rest of your analysis of what all tanks need I agree. Templars and Nigtblades miss an AoE root. And though Silver Leash is less than ideal, it is actually not that bad if used carefully.
Another problem that tanks aside from DKs and Wardens have is the ability to sustain stamina while blocking. Nightblades would fall in the middle ground here as they still can use Leeching Strikes and due to the ability to reliably apply Minor Maim using magicka they can drop a really big source of stamina drain from their rotation - Low Slash. But Sorcerers only have a channeled skill for that, one they can't really use, and Templars have an insult of a skill that I don't even have morphed because it's absolutely useless on anything but trash fights.
The sustain problem can actually be addressed with gear for at least Nightblades and Sorcerers, however here we have the next problem... Tanks must use Ebon and Alkosh. If you're not using those sets you're not welcome in vet DLC trials unless you have a very tolerant guild, and you can forget about score runs.
For Templars to be able to sustain we have to go even further, we have to use 1hs ulti. But you won't be welcome in aforementioned trials unless you can run War Horn. So here we essentially have a perfect storm, Templars can't use anything they need to stay alive, and they don't have a proper self heal either.
So to sum it up:
- NBs and Templars need a root
- Templars need a self heal suitable for tanks
- Sorcs and especially Templars, with NBs to a lesser degree, need sustain
- The sustain problems would be mostly solved by making certain gear and skills not mandatory
The idea for tank flavors is nice, but currently not even the basics are covered.
MerlinPendragon wrote: »I like that DKs are the "top tank" and I wouldn't want other classes brought up to their level.
For one, we need more differentiation amongst the classes, not less. I'm opposed to any idea that every class should be able to perform every role just as good as the next. Turning this game into a vanilla 'everyone has everything' type game will be it's down fall.
Furthermore, with the constant CP increases this year, there has been major amount of power creep in this game that has destroyed difficulty. To bring all other classes up in tanking power to do as well a DK just continues the power creep in the wrong direction.
I agree all classes should be 'top' in an area e.g:
- NB - DPS
- Sorc - Solo
- Templar - Healing
- DK - Tanking
- Warden - Jack of all
However with everyone claiming that all classes should be on par with NB for dps, rightfully all classes should also be on par with Templar for healing, DK for tanking, Easy solo like Sorc, no? Otherwise classes would become irrelevant.
All classes imo need a flavour, something that makes them unique without putting them head and shoulders above anyone else.
Abilities which are useful across the spectrum of the game. Especially the tanking weapon skill ine - 1handed.
Is Ransack preferable to Pierce Armor? No, firstly it only buffs physical damage and secondly it does not outweigh potentially boosting damage to 12 people in a PVE group not 30 people in a PvP group. Rubbish morph, utter rubbish.
Is Deep slash a good alternative to Heroic Slash? Let's see: in a trash fight it >may< be but trash is trash so who cares? Let's look at a boss fight. 1 target. Deep Slash is utterly useless as a morph in a boss fight. So you forget the trash fight benefit and always go for Heroic slash. Again, rubbish morph.
Is Absorb Magic better than Defensive Stance? Let's look. You get hit with a 30k magicka spell. You absorb 4500 of that, still being hit by 25,000 and THEN heal yourself for 5-8k HP. Or you reflect the spell 100% AND damage AND stun the enemy in turn. Rubbish morph.
The ulti is not desirable when compared to the OP state of war horn.
Silver Leash. What a god awful addition. Is this of any use to a boss trial tank? Absolutely not. Does it need to be used in dungeons? Absolutely not. But it makes lives for EVERYONE ELSE easier so its constantly expected to be slotted.
i really have to disagree with a few points you mentioned here regarding skills.
first off: ransack is not a rubbish morph, actually in a boss fight with a dedicated group that would be the better morph. with a decent healer major breach is already provided through elemental drain, therefore that part of pierce armor would be redundant. so basically you get additional resistances by using ransack for free. sadly the other morph is preferred, since its the tanks duty to taunt as much as possible, but not the healers duty to put ele drain on everything. therefore major breach would be missing on several small enemies when using puncture.
heroic slash versus low slash is actually not a point of discussion, since minor maim is accessible through various sources. but minor heroism makes this morph much better.
absorb magic versus defensive stance is actually quite clear, which the better morph is: absorb magic. if you reflect a projectile...ok nice for you, but actually the damage you do is irrelevant, since projectiles are mostly not the attacks you will face most of the time (ok some bosses only have those kind of attacks, but its uncomon). so the damage you do is neglible, additionally stunning bosses is impossible anyways and reflecting projectiles of adds is meaningless, since they will not even scratch you. so basically you can get a low cost heal for free while ignoring the damage of the projectile. @DoobZ69 certainly didnt tank end content, otherwise he would have recommended absorb magic, because in end content a reflected projectile is not worth it, but you as tank will need every heal accessible for you. additionally there are bosses, which heal themselves, if you reflect their projectiles at them. Doobz will get kicked from his guild or at least hated, if he ever uses defensive stance against Rakkhat and his barrage attack.
regarding the ultimate: this skill is very useful, especially for new tanks and those who struggle with stamina sustain. also for fights, where your warhorn wont reach the group anyway, this skill is great. it allows you to recover stamina with heavy attack and also makes your skills cost nothing. this is the best ultimate, when you tank the axes in vAA and you start to struggle. so dont underestimate that ultimate, it can save your and your groups ass.
RPGplayer13579 wrote: »I know this may be slightly off topic but what is the upper limit on spell and physical resistance?
I really like the idea of flavors a tank could bring into a raid group. But at this point those flavors need to be significant differences between the classes. At the moment we have at least with the offensive buffing dragonknight already some kind of flavor, but the current meta favors stack and burn, avoid mechanics by boosting dps, so that actually the engulfing flames outshadows the use of other classes in most cases. In your scenario the other classes need to excel at their own flavor to such a degree, that a templar tank would allow one healer to switch to only off-healing, so that he can pull a significant amount of dps. This would make up for the loss of those offensive buffs a Dk provides. The nightblade tank would need to pull pretty high dps himself to justify its presence in raids. And a warden maybe would have to excel in defensive buffs to such a degree, that damage dealers could go for single stat bufffood, so that they can pull higher numbers again. (Since OP didnt have an idea for sorcerer tanks, i just leave them out for my comment.)
Something similar like this would have to implemented to make all kind of tanks really viable and desirable. This would make the group leader choose between the different classes. Maybe same could apply for choosing the healer classes. But again, this game also needs to be balanced around PvP to some extent and you surely see, that probably all three classes templars, wardens and nightblades must not be released into PvP with those kind of abilities. This would be very unbalanced and would lead to truly immortal templar tanks with great self healing and survivability, meanwhile nightblade tanks could easely kill stuff due to their high damage capabilities and wardens would grant tremendous defensive stats to groups (we cant always balance around groups, there are also solo PvP players ). Meanwhile the offensive buff of engulfing flames is not significant at all for PvP, not even relevant for group play, since in PvP damage is less flame based and enemies have the ability to cleanse a debuff. This skill only gets relevant for the dragonknight itself, if he is based on magicka.
Sure I would love to see some kind of flavors every class could bring into a trial group, I would love to see some more utility on the non-meta tank classes. I dont want to see the classes being equal (ok maybe sustain could be a bit more even between classes, so sorcs and nightblades could use some help, meanwhile templars could work fine with an ice staff as mainweapon and sword and shield offbar). But as you can see, such stuff is very hard to balance.
John_Falstaff wrote: »@MerlinPendragon , everyone's entitled to own opinion, of course. I personally don't see much diversity in locking classes into specific roles. It's so terribly uniform when in trials, all you see is templar/warden healers, DK tanks and nightblade damage dealers. It's already bad enough that there's racial meta pressure and people get ridiculed for deciding to play a bosmer tank, for instance. Making it official that classes can only excel at certain roles will make things so much worse.
In my opinion the whole "DK is a damage buffing tank because of engulfing flames" thing and it being the reason DKs are the meta tanks is ridiculous. DKs were THE tanks for several years. They were meta when raids were stamina heavy. They were meta when everybody and their grandma was a HA pet sorc. And they are still meta now in 7 NB raids too. It has nothing to do with engulfing. 10% extra flame damage is nice but it never was the defining feature of DK tanks.