TANKING: Class Diversity Discussion

paulsimonps · August 2018

So after reading the class rep notes from the 16th it got me thinking about something. For a long time now the premise of the gameplay style has been play as you want, and the devs have been trying to make that more of a reality with making sure all classes can do all roles. However there is a risk to have it be too much, homogenization in pursuit of class diversity, removing what makes classes feel, look and play unique. Therefor I wanted to ask everyone, the devs included, what do you think should be something all tanks should be able to do and what should/is the unique selling point of a specific class. This as well can be extended to the weapons of the Tanks, Frost Staff and Sword and Board, what should be unique for each weapon and what should both weapons be able to bring to any fight.

For me something that all tanks should be able to do, other than the obvious taunt, is to control the battlefield. Crowd Control is very important to a tank in my opinion, there were countless arguments over the years about DKs superiority in this with both Choking Talons(AoE Root/debuff) and Unrelenting Grip(single target mob pull), then we got Wardens, who basically had the same skill set yet slightly different. It was a subtle difference but in my opinion it was enough of one. Gripping shards was a HP based DoT above its root and had a small chance to still apply the same minor maim as the choking talons. The Frozen gates were also a great alternative with its AoE trap set up and ability to quickly hit multiple enemies. However the other classes lacked a lot of this. Sorcs had Encase, which while weaker than Talons and Shards was still a great Root with its own unique design, it being directed and targeted much differently. Templars had a bunch of snares and knock downs but no Root or "chain". Nightblades had it worse in my opinion when it came to crowd control, with the exception of the Stun from Soul Teather, they had nothing and at sometimes the opposite of what they wanted, fear. Fear, while incapacitating the enemies offensive capabilities was/is an ability people will hate you for using as a Tank. It spreads enemies away rather than clustering them up as we want.

We now have Time Stop and Silver Leash, but they are both extremely hard to use. Time Stop just has too long of a duration, in both morphs, one has a channel for 2s to get a 3s stun and the other has a 4s duration before giving the 3s stun all be it with no channel attached to it. It works too slow, and costs too much for what it gives. Silver Leash is not as bad if it wasn't for one thing, its cost. Silver Leash costs stamina, which for a tank needing to block is very bad. You could use it to chain in all the ranged mobs in a room but you would be out of stamina after doing it leaving you open. Its one saving grace for now is that with a Sorc using Dark Deal its possible to make it work, not as well as a DK or a Warden but its still viable. This again gives sorcs at least a viable version of an AoE Root and a Single Target pull. While Nightblades and Templars are really lacking in both still.

So that for me, is something I want all tanks to be able to do regardless of class and weapon choice, its not all but its an example of something I would like to hear more opinions on from others. Now for when it comes to a selling point for the classes I got a few but not all down yet but will give some examples again to spark discussion.

Wardens:
Defensive group wide buffs. AoE Major Protection, AoE Major Ward/Resolve, potential for AoE Minor Intellect/Endurance as well as a solid way to apply Minor Lifesteal. This combined with the potential for higher than average minor maim AoE using Frost they have a great set up for buffs and debuffs. Throw in a Circle of Protection and they are a really great mitigation giver for hard hitting fights. Might not always be necessary but great to have in situations where it is.

Templars:
The healing tank, for obvious reasons, more so than a warden and a nightblade, the templar could have a great set up for extra healing in any group that they are in. Purging negative effects, giving resources and healing them, they can in their own way make sure their party does not fall. Now I would like to see some HP bases heals thrown in there to help allies with more healing, much like what they warden got, though while the warden has it its not a primary selling point.

Dragonknights:
Offensive group wide buffs+defensive shields. With Engulfing flames giving out extra fire damage and Molten Weapons giving out AoE damage buffs they got a great potential as a damage buff oriented tank, which they are. I feel like Molten weapons and its morphs are lacking though, everyone uses spell and weapon power pots so its not really that necessary. Would love to see one of the morphs potentially give out AoE empower stacks or another small damage bonus in some way. Other abilities that are less used also have the potential for similar readjustments. Tough to be fair DKs are the strongest Tank already so should not give them too much in this way.

Nightblades:
For me I see them as the damage dealing tanks. They have the biggest potential to themselves do a lot of damage, while this is not that useful in Trials it can be in 4 man content. The fact that their offensive abilities also heal is a great combo for a Jack of all Trades type tank that can swap things up for whatever fight they might get themselves into.

I didn't have as much to say about NBs and I am not really sure about sorcs, their pets have great potential but at the moment are falling flat and don't see a good use for them as a tank. Anyway, what is YOUR view of the classes and what they should be able to do and what their unique selling points should be? I am very much so looking forward to hearing what people have to say about Tanking Class design. And while I probably won't get a response I would love to know what they devs vision is for the classes.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Finn
@Liofa @Checkmath @FeaR Turbo @Tasear @Woeler

RPGplayer13579 · August 2018

I know this may be slightly off topic but what is the upper limit on spell and physical resistance?

Tasear · August 2018

For me wardens felt like healing tank of maybe a off tank healer? Wardens also make great frost tanks. I tried that out for a couple months. Just saying definitely fun in in pvp too.

Nightblade tanks are good a healing allies and dps. You have to very careful using this type of tank usually. They have tavas going for them so evasion tanks. Might be interesting if you could switch from DPS to tank easily. Tried this for a bit as werewolf tank ( didn't work out) Might go back when I have time and try again. Right it's a we do though ( redguards make great tank/dps for this)

Sorcs are interesting, but is nice is ultimate cost reduction paired with dragon. 30% reduction on let's say war horn. I also added potences on mine with asylum 2hander. It takes practice timing things like bound ageis or dark deal, but when you get it's amazing. You can stun, root, and chain anything out of side. ( It's my lastest fascination)

Dragon knights to me feel like they are great in standing their ground. Always feel strong with them. Also they have coolest animations for tanks who fire or the sounds that come with it.

Haven't played Templar tank but frost seems interesting with rune.

ccfeeling · August 2018

DK is the best whichever 4 man or 12 trial , they got everything a real tank need , work as intended , ZOS emphasized that DK is the best tank in the game .

Then Warden , just a little behind DK .

NB , Sorc , Templar , not really much difference and I agree that the new skills are awful , 3k stam chain and long time stop .

I have no idea what the combat team is doing , all above 3 classes cannot fulfill the tank jobs in hard content .

Btw , DPS tank , DLC HM ? Or just casual run .

ZeroXFF · August 2018

Another thing that all tanks should have is an HP% based heal. Currently templars are missing one. This leads to Templars who are gearing as traditional tanks being unable to keep themselves alive on anything that hits harder than a wet noodle if the healer is distracted. And non-traditional mag tanks have such low HP that there is no room for error.

With the rest of your analysis of what all tanks need I agree. Templars and Nigtblades miss an AoE root. And though Silver Leash is less than ideal, it is actually not that bad if used carefully.

Another problem that tanks aside from DKs and Wardens have is the ability to sustain stamina while blocking. Nightblades would fall in the middle ground here as they still can use Leeching Strikes and due to the ability to reliably apply Minor Maim using magicka they can drop a really big source of stamina drain from their rotation - Low Slash. But Sorcerers only have a channeled skill for that, one they can't really use, and Templars have an insult of a skill that I don't even have morphed because it's absolutely useless on anything but trash fights.

The sustain problem can actually be addressed with gear for at least Nightblades and Sorcerers, however here we have the next problem... Tanks must use Ebon and Alkosh. If you're not using those sets you're not welcome in vet DLC trials unless you have a very tolerant guild, and you can forget about score runs.

For Templars to be able to sustain we have to go even further, we have to use 1hs ulti. But you won't be welcome in aforementioned trials unless you can run War Horn. So here we essentially have a perfect storm, Templars can't use anything they need to stay alive, and they don't have a proper self heal either.

So to sum it up:
- NBs and Templars need a root
- Templars need a self heal suitable for tanks
- Sorcs and especially Templars, with NBs to a lesser degree, need sustain
- The sustain problems would be mostly solved by making certain gear and skills not mandatory

The idea for tank flavors is nice, but currently not even the basics are covered.

Spartabunny08 · August 2018

They need to revert the blocking change that happened. That would be a start. Since everything they try to change for the better breaks several more things in the process, for example since the light attack change heavy attack is now not working right. I rely on the heavy attack for resources and since the change has been a nightmare. Before morrowind I loved tanking, wow it was amazing to me. Compared to anyone who has played on console since the beginning, I'm a noob, but since April last year I've made it to end level and have 9 characters. I've learned a tremondous amount and tanking and healing I used to enjoy the most. It seems to me there's an anti-tank agenda afoot. First the resources nerfs came, then the blocking nerfs came, then comes light attack buff that breaks heavy attacks awesome, then they throw sloads at us. Wtf is going on? I really feel like they have almost completely destroyed tanks, it's just disappointing anymore. I really enjoyed this game, but for some reason they keep taking all the fun out of it and with all the bugs and breaking pretty much everything in the game how do they expect to keep making money? Eventually we will all move on to a game that doesn't try to fix what isn't broke and actually fix what is. Like snipe exploit. That's real fun. You leave a snipe exploit in the game and nerf tanks into the ground. Interesting. I've had to make a near unkillable ninjablade to compensate for the tanks failure. So now if I can't handle the situation, I just cloak and go somewhere else. No healing no tanking, this is what's left. Ninjablade is really fun but if they nerf this too I'm just leaving. No hope left and the direction this game is going I wonder if they're kinda sabotaging it. Hope they really get it together.

Silver_Strider · August 2018

Speaking plainly, you'll need a complete reworking of some abilities and well as adjusting skill lines in order to give each class its own unique spin on abilities that also make them viable for each role. I want my NB tank to play differently from my Warden or DK Tank but currently, my opinions for doing so are heavily restricted to outside sources since my Class Skills are meh for Tanking.

I've been thinking up a somewhat controversial reworking of skills and skill lines for NB to somewhat alter how they play and while some ideas could be more thought out, I'll just throw them out and accept the potential hatred.

Assassination:

Soul Harvest: Add a 2 second Silence effect to enemies hit by this ability. Loses out on the Ultimate Regen bonuses.
Assassin's Blade: Moved to the 3rd skill in the skill line to make way for Veiled Strike to come to Assassination.
Blur: Moved to Shadow Line. Minor Resolve/Ward added to base effect. Morph options are to deal damage to enemies after a successful dodge or after casting, the next ability you use is free.
Mark Target: Reworked the skill entirely and moved to Siphoning Skill Line to make room for Cripple. MT now provides Minor Lifesteal, with Morphs applying Minor Magic Steal or Major Maim for a few seconds upon activation. Removed Major Fracture/Breech as well as the burst heal from it and greatly reduced the cost to be around the 1200 range. No longer reveals invisible enemies but I'll explain that later.
Master Assassin: Changed into just a passive buff for having an Assassination ability slotted. Speed Boost from Concealed Weapon gets placed here as well.
Executioner: Applies on activation of an Assassination ability. 1 second CD.

Shadow:

Consuming Darkness: Does damage as a base effect. 1 morph follows the NB, while the other has increased range and duration.
Veiled Strike: Moved to Assassination. Concealed Weapon now applies Major Breech instead of speed boost in stealth.
Shadow Cloak: Remove invisibility as an effect entirely. Tank heal becomes the new base effect with 1 morph turning it into a Burst Heal with a small damage shield while the other extends the duration of the HoT + Minor Protection.
Path of Darkness: Now has a synergy for some extra damage. Twisting Path will now scale on Max Health and apply Minor Fracture/Breech with the synergy instead of extra damage.
Fear: Changed into a Mind bend abilities that draws enemies towards the NB. One morph remains a fear effect while the other gets Minor Maim.
Dark Shade: Roots enemies hit by the AoE.

Siphoning:

Soul Siphon: Reduced cost
Cripple: Moved to Assassination for Mark Target. Debilitate is now a Stamina Morph. Loses resource return effect.
Shrewd Offering: Applies a HoT effect to the Target
Siphoning Strikes: Heavy attacks restore more resources while active.
Power Drain: Heal applied as base effect. Power Extraction gets a radius increase while Sap Essence refunds some of the cost per enemy hit.

Before people start tearing these suggestions to shreds, I main NB. I understand the result of losing Cloak will be difficult for some players to handle but I personally feel that, at this point in time, Cloak has resulted in NB's being held back severely in all other areas not labeled DPS. We have little to no group support, we have terrible sustain as Tanks, no anything outside of sneaking and ganking. Yes, we have the highest DPS output of all the classes but that's a numbers issue that ZOS would have to adjust themselves and these are largely just suggestions to help give NBs a more unique take on their class to have them play functionally different from DK or Warden while still being able to play the same role.

I would suggest changes to Templar and Sorc toolkits as well but I'm not knowledgeable enough in either class to make in depth suggestions on either one so I'll just leave it at this.

Edit: Forgot to include changes to Veiled Strike and Siphoning Strikes

RavenSworn · August 2018

Dragonknights
- a good all rounder tank, with an almost complete toolkit.
(nothing much to say here, top tanks are dks and there's a reason for it)

Wardens
- an all star substitute for the dk
- good crowd control centred around frost theme
- fantastic ult gen
- innate minor evasion
- versatile tanking

Sorcerers
- active block mitigation
- great source of offbalance
- good crowd control with vitality buff

Nightblades
- self heals
- innate evasion
- slightly better dps output

Templars
- made for heal tanking
- a much better support than actual tanking

In the notes, the devs wanted a unique feel to the classes but didn't want to make it mandatory for a class to have to be present regardless of its overall performance. Don't include diversity for diversity sake though, that's also bad. Make sure that each class has the tools to be good at endgame.

The truth of the matter is, in terms of dungeons, even dlc dungeons, any class can tank. Truly. The tools are there, albeit clunky or higher cost. The question is, would the community accept these differences than just following the accepted norm?

Checkmath · August 2018

I really like the idea of flavors a tank could bring into a raid group. But at this point those flavors need to be significant differences between the classes. At the moment we have at least with the offensive buffing dragonknight already some kind of flavor, but the current meta favors stack and burn, avoid mechanics by boosting dps, so that actually the engulfing flames outshadows the use of other classes in most cases. In your scenario the other classes need to excel at their own flavor to such a degree, that a templar tank would allow one healer to switch to only off-healing, so that he can pull a significant amount of dps. This would make up for the loss of those offensive buffs a Dk provides. The nightblade tank would need to pull pretty high dps himself to justify its presence in raids. And a warden maybe would have to excel in defensive buffs to such a degree, that damage dealers could go for single stat bufffood, so that they can pull higher numbers again. (Since OP didnt have an idea for sorcerer tanks, i just leave them out for my comment.)

Something similar like this would have to implemented to make all kind of tanks really viable and desirable. This would make the group leader choose between the different classes. Maybe same could apply for choosing the healer classes. But again, this game also needs to be balanced around PvP to some extent and you surely see, that probably all three classes templars, wardens and nightblades must not be released into PvP with those kind of abilities. This would be very unbalanced and would lead to truly immortal templar tanks with great self healing and survivability, meanwhile nightblade tanks could easely kill stuff due to their high damage capabilities and wardens would grant tremendous defensive stats to groups (we cant always balance around groups, there are also solo PvP players

). Meanwhile the offensive buff of engulfing flames is not significant at all for PvP, not even relevant for group play, since in PvP damage is less flame based and enemies have the ability to cleanse a debuff. This skill only gets relevant for the dragonknight itself, if he is based on magicka.

Sure I would love to see some kind of flavors every class could bring into a trial group, I would love to see some more utility on the non-meta tank classes. I dont want to see the classes being equal (ok maybe sustain could be a bit more even between classes, so sorcs and nightblades could use some help, meanwhile templars could work fine with an ice staff as mainweapon and sword and shield offbar). But as you can see, such stuff is very hard to balance.

weedgenius · August 2018

paulsimonps wrote: »

the other has a 4s duration before giving the 3s stun all be it with no channel attached to it.

It’s actually “albeit” just for future reference

Great post and very well thought out!

Swen_von_Walhallion · August 2018

Well i tank with templars long time with this setup, and its better then its look on paper. Silver leas for pulling adds is great specialy on trash fights where as temlar oyu have no problem with stamina thx repetence. Time freeze is rly great after you lern how to use them. You can use it to pul group of trash and when you know where cast it you freze most of them and have 3s free time to taunt them without problem. in fight it you give 3s widow for fre HA where you and group get 0 dmg. And give you DDs 3s when you can go ful dmg without distraction, well with decent group trash die when stun ends mostly. True is you dont have heal based healt but you have healt based shild which is even stronger when more enemys is around you. and you have self clear with aoe dmg slov and heal, which let you ignoro debufs as bleeding which are pain for tank ( bc bleeding ignore all mitigation values) and as bonus now it procing you enchant from backbar.

DoobZ69 · August 2018

I will second a few points made in this discussion. I'd just like to point out that all classes, in my opinion, can tank dungeons fine, the difference is only when you're told you can't tank a trial because of your class.

All classes need an instant heal based on tanking. Instead of HP I would recommend somehow scaling off of resistances. The HP scaling results in massive abuses in the PVP sphere and it allows the PVE tank to ignore how much resistance he has, fully focus on HP and wear medium armour rubbish like Alkosh.

AOE crowd control is definitely an issue for some classes. I personally think Encase is fantastic and is a model of a skill designed well. It requires skill to use (directional), it is control without being OP (only a few seconds and the mobs aren't incapacitated) and it is useful in a boss fight (spell damage increase for the group from casting, small heal and increases vitality for a short period). I use it 1-4 times during trash pulls and regularly during a boss fight. NB on the other hand has horrible CC capability. The fear makes mobs run into other groups and pull more groups onto the team, its a nightmare and all over the place.

Multiple target taunting needs to come into the game. I understand ZOS don't want tanks to be tanking everything but we still are, its just a *** nightmare to taunt everything every single pull. Also some boss fights rely on our ability to ensure all targets are individually taunted and kept taunted, for example the axes in AA. I think a short duration (6 seconds?) multi target, short range or directional, taunt would improve the tank's quality of life immeasurably. I firmly believe this is one of the reasons that tanks are in such a short supply, right after the lack of classes that can tank effectively to begin with.

The perma-block meta needs to go. If the idea behind no stamina being regenerated whilst blocking is for tanking in general then it is only suicidally unfair to allow some classes to continue getting resources while others don't. It should apply to ALL tanks (and all blocking to be honest), regardless of class.

All classes need to bring unique group benefits, as every role: A: only that role+class can bring and B: gives the same level of benefit as others. For example: a Sorcerer tank brings nothing to the table that a Sorcerer DPS or healer does not. A DK tank brings something that the DK DPS or healer is not really good at delivering. So the meta becomes bring Sorc DPS+Healer and DK tank. All classes and roles should be desirable. What I am seeing is 3-4 classes which bring their class benefit and 8 highest FOTM DPS parses.

Abilities which are useful across the spectrum of the game. Especially the tanking weapon skill ine - 1handed.
Is Ransack preferable to Pierce Armor? No, firstly it only buffs physical damage and secondly it does not outweigh potentially boosting damage to 12 people in a PVE group not 30 people in a PvP group. Rubbish morph, utter rubbish.
Is Deep slash a good alternative to Heroic Slash? Let's see: in a trash fight it >may< be but trash is trash so who cares? Let's look at a boss fight. 1 target. Deep Slash is utterly useless as a morph in a boss fight. So you forget the trash fight benefit and always go for Heroic slash. Again, rubbish morph.
Is Absorb Magic better than Defensive Stance? Let's look. You get hit with a 30k magicka spell. You absorb 4500 of that, still being hit by 25,000 and THEN heal yourself for 5-8k HP. Or you reflect the spell 100% AND damage AND stun the enemy in turn. Rubbish morph.
Is invasion better than shielded assault? A 2 second stun increase won't help you against a boss nor against 10 other trash mobs. Maybe better for PvP but I don't think its worth bothering with.
Power Bash. This is not for tanking and it just got made worse with the 60% defile nerf on it. Neither is really useful for tanking.
The ulti is not desirable when compared to the OP state of war horn.

Silver Leash. What a god awful addition. Is this of any use to a boss trial tank? Absolutely not. Does it need to be used in dungeons? Absolutely not. But it makes lives for EVERYONE ELSE easier so its constantly expected to be slotted. Now they don't need to worry about their own CC or their own survival or any defensive stats and do you still need a healer? it makes for bad play and bad players. Remove it from the game and disable Chains from the DK, give them a proper skill. This is the main reason tanks feel like they're slaves. I understand all the arguments about how it makes runs faster but it is an idiotic gimmick and has absolutely nothing to do with tanking and goes against the "no multi taunt" stance ZOS has taken.

Liofa · August 2018

Silver Leash costs a lot. I think if a class that have no class pull needs this feature, they should use Swarm Mother. Leash is just too punishing on the Stamina. It's still something but not worth in my opinion.

About the AOE Roots, I think Time Stop is nowhere close to being an AOE Root. Snares are effective for Crowd Control but still not close to roots. I tried stacking snares instead of roots with Blockade of Frost and Cinder Storm. They still chase and attack teammates, even though they are slow. The difference is that. Roots completely prevent any damage incoming from enemies but snares just slow the enemy down, making them be able to still damage allies.

I am not gonna go through all classes (I already did in Summerset PTS and not much changed for PvE Tanking since then, here is the thread if you want to read) but there is one thing that is important. Whichever class gives the highest damage boost will be the most wanted tank. Currently, it is Dragonknight with Engulfing Flames. It won't matter how much you buff other classes and/or make them twice better than DK in terms of sustain or survival, it won't matter. DK will still be the best choice because of the damage boost it brings. This has several reasons. First of all, mDK DPS and DK Healer not wanted because they are weak compared to other classes in that role. Second, Red CP makes everyone so tanky that it is simply not necessary to bring a class just for defensive buffs. People play with 15k Health and still don't get one shotted from most mechanics, thanks to Red CP. Defensive buffs will never as valuable as damage buffs because of this. Keep in mind that, boosting damage indirectly increases survival because shorter combat = less time for mistakes = more survival.

I think the key to class diversity is having different damage buffs on every class or having these damage buffs come from DDs themselves instead of tanks. Defensive buffs other classes bring are not gamechangers and won't be relevant unless they are made into significant buffs that everyone will want in their group.

Sparr0w · August 2018

I tank all content on a NB tank, find it so much easier than my DK tank but I've mained nightblades from the get go.

Silver leash could use a reduced cost I'll agree with that one, at the mo it's leash > heavy > taunt repeat just to keep enough stamina to block when all mobs get in.

Roots yes definitely, I'm having to run an ice staff to slow enemies just enough so they can be nuked down, ideally I want to swap to a lightning but timestop doesn't seem half as good as talons (have to consider the PVP crowd here, a lot of complaints about this ability being spammed).

Link to my current build left out my 2 flex slots, usually it's leash front & inner back but change depending on the fight.

Also group offensive buffs (similar to engulfing) are needed for every class, yes NB gives a tiny bit of weapon crit & sorc a tiny bit of spell crit but that makes minimal difference.

MerlinPendragon · August 2018

I like that DKs are the "top tank" and I wouldn't want other classes brought up to their level.

For one, we need more differentiation amongst the classes, not less. I'm opposed to any idea that every class should be able to perform every role just as good as the next. Turning this game into a vanilla 'everyone has everything' type game will be it's down fall.

Furthermore, with the constant CP increases this year, there has been major amount of power creep in this game that has destroyed difficulty. To bring all other classes up in tanking power to do as well a DK just continues the power creep in the wrong direction.

John_Falstaff · August 2018

@MerlinPendragon , I have to disagree with that. If that was in place from the start, maybe; now, it's too late for such turn. People were promised "play as you like" doctrine, and characters are created with expectation that they can excel at everything. There is no upfront warning during character creation that, by choosing a certain class, one will be pigeonholed into certain role and will have to create new character to become a viable DD instead of tank, or vice versa.

Instead, I would rather have classes designed in ways that would both allow them excel at every role (preferably in own unique ways), and scale better with player skill, not capped by capabilities of certain class. I'm a DK main, and I would even accept a nerf to Engulfing Flames (some people call for that) if it allowed the class to get rid of tank stereotype.

Sparr0w · August 2018

MerlinPendragon wrote: »

I like that DKs are the "top tank" and I wouldn't want other classes brought up to their level.

For one, we need more differentiation amongst the classes, not less. I'm opposed to any idea that every class should be able to perform every role just as good as the next. Turning this game into a vanilla 'everyone has everything' type game will be it's down fall.

Furthermore, with the constant CP increases this year, there has been major amount of power creep in this game that has destroyed difficulty. To bring all other classes up in tanking power to do as well a DK just continues the power creep in the wrong direction.

I agree all classes should be 'top' in an area e.g:

NB - DPS
Sorc - Solo
Templar - Healing
DK - Tanking
Warden - Jack of all

However with everyone claiming that all classes should be on par with NB for dps, rightfully all classes should also be on par with Templar for healing, DK for tanking, Easy solo like Sorc, no? Otherwise classes would become irrelevant.

All classes imo need a flavour, something that makes them unique without putting them head and shoulders above anyone else.

Checkmath · August 2018

DoobZ69 wrote: »

Abilities which are useful across the spectrum of the game. Especially the tanking weapon skill ine - 1handed.
Is Ransack preferable to Pierce Armor? No, firstly it only buffs physical damage and secondly it does not outweigh potentially boosting damage to 12 people in a PVE group not 30 people in a PvP group. Rubbish morph, utter rubbish.
Is Deep slash a good alternative to Heroic Slash? Let's see: in a trash fight it >may< be but trash is trash so who cares? Let's look at a boss fight. 1 target. Deep Slash is utterly useless as a morph in a boss fight. So you forget the trash fight benefit and always go for Heroic slash. Again, rubbish morph.
Is Absorb Magic better than Defensive Stance? Let's look. You get hit with a 30k magicka spell. You absorb 4500 of that, still being hit by 25,000 and THEN heal yourself for 5-8k HP. Or you reflect the spell 100% AND damage AND stun the enemy in turn. Rubbish morph.

The ulti is not desirable when compared to the OP state of war horn.

Silver Leash. What a god awful addition. Is this of any use to a boss trial tank? Absolutely not. Does it need to be used in dungeons? Absolutely not. But it makes lives for EVERYONE ELSE easier so its constantly expected to be slotted.

i really have to disagree with a few points you mentioned here regarding skills.
first off: ransack is not a rubbish morph, actually in a boss fight with a dedicated group that would be the better morph. with a decent healer major breach is already provided through elemental drain, therefore that part of pierce armor would be redundant. so basically you get additional resistances by using ransack for free. sadly the other morph is preferred, since its the tanks duty to taunt as much as possible, but not the healers duty to put ele drain on everything. therefore major breach would be missing on several small enemies when using puncture.
heroic slash versus low slash is actually not a point of discussion, since minor maim is accessible through various sources. but minor heroism makes this morph much better.
absorb magic versus defensive stance is actually quite clear, which the better morph is: absorb magic. if you reflect a projectile...ok nice for you, but actually the damage you do is irrelevant, since projectiles are mostly not the attacks you will face most of the time (ok some bosses only have those kind of attacks, but its uncomon). so the damage you do is neglible, additionally stunning bosses is impossible anyways and reflecting projectiles of adds is meaningless, since they will not even scratch you. so basically you can get a low cost heal for free while ignoring the damage of the projectile. @DoobZ69 certainly didnt tank end content, otherwise he would have recommended absorb magic, because in end content a reflected projectile is not worth it, but you as tank will need every heal accessible for you. additionally there are bosses, which heal themselves, if you reflect their projectiles at them. Doobz will get kicked from his guild or at least hated, if he ever uses defensive stance against Rakkhat and his barrage attack.
regarding the ultimate: this skill is very useful, especially for new tanks and those who struggle with stamina sustain. also for fights, where your warhorn wont reach the group anyway, this skill is great. it allows you to recover stamina with heavy attack and also makes your skills cost nothing. this is the best ultimate, when you tank the axes in vAA and you start to struggle. so dont underestimate that ultimate, it can save your and your groups ass.

Guppet · August 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Speaking plainly, you'll need a complete reworking of some abilities and well as adjusting skill lines in order to give each class its own unique spin on abilities that also make them viable for each role. I want my NB tank to play differently from my Warden or DK Tank but currently, my opinions for doing so are heavily restricted to outside sources since my Class Skills are meh for Tanking.

I've been thinking up a somewhat controversial reworking of skills and skill lines for NB to somewhat alter how they play and while some ideas could be more thought out, I'll just throw them out and accept the potential hatred.

Assassination:
Soul Harvest: Add a 2 second Silence effect to enemies hit by this ability. Loses out on the Ultimate Regen bonuses.

Assassin's Blade: Moved to the 3rd skill in the skill line to make way for Veiled Strike to come to Assassination.

Blur: Moved to Shadow Line. Minor Resolve/Ward added to base effect. Morph options are to deal damage to enemies after a successful dodge or after casting, the next ability you use is free.

Mark Target: Reworked the skill entirely and moved to Siphoning Skill Line to make room for Cripple. MT now provides Minor Lifesteal, with Morphs applying Minor Magic Steal or Major Maim for a few seconds upon activation. Removed Major Fracture/Breech as well as the burst heal from it and greatly reduced the cost to be around the 1200 range. No longer reveals invisible enemies but I'll explain that later.

Master Assassin: Changed into just a passive buff for having an Assassination ability slotted.

Executioner: Applies on activation of an Assassination ability. 1 second CD.

Shadow:
Consuming Darkness: Does damage as a base effect. 1 morph follows the NB, while the other has increased range and duration.

Shadow Cloak: Remove invisibility as an effect entirely. Tank heal becomes the new base effect with 1 morph turning it into a Burst Heal with a small damage shield while the other extends the duration of the HoT + Minor Protection.

Path of Darkness: Now has a synergy for some extra damage. Twisting Path will now scale on Max Health and apply Minor Fracture/Breech with the synergy instead of extra damage.

Fear: Changed into a Mind bend abilities that draws enemies towards the NB. One morph remains a fear effect while the other gets Minor Maim.

Dark Shade: Roots enemies hit by the AoE.

Siphoning:
Soul Siphon: Reduced cost

Cripple: Moved to Assassination for Mark Target. Debilitate is now a Stamina Morph. Loses resource return effect.

Shrewd Offering: Applies a HoT effect to the Target

Power Drain: Heal applied as base effect. Power Extraction gets a radius increase while Sap Essence refunds some of the cost per enemy hit.

Before people start tearing these suggestions to shreds, I main NB. I understand the result of losing Cloak will be difficult for some players to handle but I personally feel that, at this point in time, Cloak has resulted in NB's being held back severely in all other areas not labeled DPS. We have little to no group support, we have terrible sustain as Tanks, no anything outside of sneaking and ganking. Yes, we have the highest DPS output of all the classes but that's a numbers issue that ZOS would have to adjust themselves and these are largely just suggestions to help give NBs a more unique take on their class to have them play functionally different from DK or Warden while still being able to play the same role.

I would suggest changes to Templar and Sorc toolkits as well but I'm not knowledgeable enough in either class to make in depth suggestions on either one so I'll just leave it at this.

Agree with all of this. Maybe not cloak, but the rest utterly spot on for NB tanks. Hire the guy!!

To many NB is the cloak.

MerlinPendragon · August 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@MerlinPendragon , I have to disagree with that. If that was in place from the start, maybe; now, it's too late for such turn. People were promised "play as you like" doctrine, and characters are created with expectation that they can excel at everything. There is no upfront warning during character creation that, by choosing a certain class, one will be pigeonholed into certain role and will have to create new character to become a viable DD instead of tank, or vice versa.

Instead, I would rather have classes designed in ways that would both allow them excel at every role (preferably in own unique ways), and scale better with player skill, not capped by capabilities of certain class. I'm a DK main, and I would even accept a nerf to Engulfing Flames (some people call for that) if it allowed the class to get rid of tank stereotype.

"Play as you want" doesnt mean there should be a lack of class diversity and that every class should so well at every role. I dont buy using such a vague term to argue that NBs should be able to tank as well as DKs, so on and so forth.

DocFrost72 · August 2018

MerlinPendragon wrote: »

I like that DKs are the "top tank" and I wouldn't want other classes brought up to their level.

I disagree, but I respect your opinion.

For one, we need more differentiation amongst the classes, not less. I'm opposed to any idea that every class should be able to perform every role just as good as the next. Turning this game into a vanilla 'everyone has everything' type game will be it's down fall.

Could you elaborate on how and why you feel this way?

Furthermore, with the constant CP increases this year, there has been major amount of power creep in this game that has destroyed difficulty. To bring all other classes up in tanking power to do as well a DK just continues the power creep in the wrong direction.

Respectfully, if dk is already at that specific point you've not added to the degree of power creep, but merely added more classes to that level. Dk will not get more powerful, and the line in the sand will not move to have more people at it.

John_Falstaff · August 2018

@MerlinPendragon , everyone's entitled to own opinion, of course. I personally don't see much diversity in locking classes into specific roles. It's so terribly uniform when in trials, all you see is templar/warden healers, DK tanks and nightblade damage dealers. It's already bad enough that there's racial meta pressure and people get ridiculed for deciding to play a bosmer tank, for instance. Making it official that classes can only excel at certain roles will make things so much worse.

Tasear · August 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Another thing that all tanks should have is an HP% based heal. Currently templars are missing one. This leads to Templars who are gearing as traditional tanks being unable to keep themselves alive on anything that hits harder than a wet noodle if the healer is distracted. And non-traditional mag tanks have such low HP that there is no room for error.

With the rest of your analysis of what all tanks need I agree. Templars and Nigtblades miss an AoE root. And though Silver Leash is less than ideal, it is actually not that bad if used carefully.

Another problem that tanks aside from DKs and Wardens have is the ability to sustain stamina while blocking. Nightblades would fall in the middle ground here as they still can use Leeching Strikes and due to the ability to reliably apply Minor Maim using magicka they can drop a really big source of stamina drain from their rotation - Low Slash. But Sorcerers only have a channeled skill for that, one they can't really use, and Templars have an insult of a skill that I don't even have morphed because it's absolutely useless on anything but trash fights.

The sustain problem can actually be addressed with gear for at least Nightblades and Sorcerers, however here we have the next problem... Tanks must use Ebon and Alkosh. If you're not using those sets you're not welcome in vet DLC trials unless you have a very tolerant guild, and you can forget about score runs.

For Templars to be able to sustain we have to go even further, we have to use 1hs ulti. But you won't be welcome in aforementioned trials unless you can run War Horn. So here we essentially have a perfect storm, Templars can't use anything they need to stay alive, and they don't have a proper self heal either.

So to sum it up:
- NBs and Templars need a root
- Templars need a self heal suitable for tanks
- Sorcs and especially Templars, with NBs to a lesser degree, need sustain
- The sustain problems would be mostly solved by making certain gear and skills not mandatory

The idea for tank flavors is nice, but currently not even the basics are covered.

Try honor of the dead it's cheap and be put to good use.

Merlin13KAGL · August 2018

Taunt
CC
Mitigate
Manage resources (These can be creatively juggled by using certain sets or skills to exchange one resource for another)
Self sustain (healing, specifically), to an extent.

A close second would involve

Mobility
Ability to proc immunity for short durations (to assist in a rez, for instance)

While everyone can approach Cap, there are certain sets that can help with some of the other things. The issue being, collectively some classes, and specifically class/race combos are still much more effective than others.

Essentially, being an off-meta tank/race means you're going to have to have to make gear sacrifices (and thus group sacrifices) where some other builds will not.

paulsimonps · August 2018

Sparr0w wrote: »

MerlinPendragon wrote: »

I like that DKs are the "top tank" and I wouldn't want other classes brought up to their level.

For one, we need more differentiation amongst the classes, not less. I'm opposed to any idea that every class should be able to perform every role just as good as the next. Turning this game into a vanilla 'everyone has everything' type game will be it's down fall.

Furthermore, with the constant CP increases this year, there has been major amount of power creep in this game that has destroyed difficulty. To bring all other classes up in tanking power to do as well a DK just continues the power creep in the wrong direction.

I agree all classes should be 'top' in an area e.g:
NB - DPS

Sorc - Solo

Templar - Healing

DK - Tanking

Warden - Jack of all

However with everyone claiming that all classes should be on par with NB for dps, rightfully all classes should also be on par with Templar for healing, DK for tanking, Easy solo like Sorc, no? Otherwise classes would become irrelevant.

All classes imo need a flavour, something that makes them unique without putting them head and shoulders above anyone else.

@Sparr0w

The last part that I bolded is exactly the type of thinking I have been referring too. The devs are very clearly trying to make it so that all class/role combos are equally as valid in the end game scene, to do this they need to bring them more in line, but by doing so they need to keep something unique and distinct between the combos or risk it being a homogenized mess. What I have been asking is what should be the driving force of each class while making them all relevant for all content.

Also something that has been a problem with the warden so far is that people forget the last part of its current trademark. Jack of all trades, master of none. It is though a really great tank.

Checkmath wrote: »

DoobZ69 wrote: »

Abilities which are useful across the spectrum of the game. Especially the tanking weapon skill ine - 1handed.
Is Ransack preferable to Pierce Armor? No, firstly it only buffs physical damage and secondly it does not outweigh potentially boosting damage to 12 people in a PVE group not 30 people in a PvP group. Rubbish morph, utter rubbish.
Is Deep slash a good alternative to Heroic Slash? Let's see: in a trash fight it >may< be but trash is trash so who cares? Let's look at a boss fight. 1 target. Deep Slash is utterly useless as a morph in a boss fight. So you forget the trash fight benefit and always go for Heroic slash. Again, rubbish morph.
Is Absorb Magic better than Defensive Stance? Let's look. You get hit with a 30k magicka spell. You absorb 4500 of that, still being hit by 25,000 and THEN heal yourself for 5-8k HP. Or you reflect the spell 100% AND damage AND stun the enemy in turn. Rubbish morph.

The ulti is not desirable when compared to the OP state of war horn.

Silver Leash. What a god awful addition. Is this of any use to a boss trial tank? Absolutely not. Does it need to be used in dungeons? Absolutely not. But it makes lives for EVERYONE ELSE easier so its constantly expected to be slotted.

i really have to disagree with a few points you mentioned here regarding skills.
first off: ransack is not a rubbish morph, actually in a boss fight with a dedicated group that would be the better morph. with a decent healer major breach is already provided through elemental drain, therefore that part of pierce armor would be redundant. so basically you get additional resistances by using ransack for free. sadly the other morph is preferred, since its the tanks duty to taunt as much as possible, but not the healers duty to put ele drain on everything. therefore major breach would be missing on several small enemies when using puncture.
heroic slash versus low slash is actually not a point of discussion, since minor maim is accessible through various sources. but minor heroism makes this morph much better.
absorb magic versus defensive stance is actually quite clear, which the better morph is: absorb magic. if you reflect a projectile...ok nice for you, but actually the damage you do is irrelevant, since projectiles are mostly not the attacks you will face most of the time (ok some bosses only have those kind of attacks, but its uncomon). so the damage you do is neglible, additionally stunning bosses is impossible anyways and reflecting projectiles of adds is meaningless, since they will not even scratch you. so basically you can get a low cost heal for free while ignoring the damage of the projectile. @DoobZ69 certainly didnt tank end content, otherwise he would have recommended absorb magic, because in end content a reflected projectile is not worth it, but you as tank will need every heal accessible for you. additionally there are bosses, which heal themselves, if you reflect their projectiles at them. Doobz will get kicked from his guild or at least hated, if he ever uses defensive stance against Rakkhat and his barrage attack.
regarding the ultimate: this skill is very useful, especially for new tanks and those who struggle with stamina sustain. also for fights, where your warhorn wont reach the group anyway, this skill is great. it allows you to recover stamina with heavy attack and also makes your skills cost nothing. this is the best ultimate, when you tank the axes in vAA and you start to struggle. so dont underestimate that ultimate, it can save your and your groups ass.

@Checkmath
Indeed, Ransack is not useless but lacks the weight of importance of Pierce Armor. Deep Slash is all but useless and Defensive Stand is more for PvP rather than PvE as Absorb Magic is the go to morph for many reasons as you mentioned. Would also like to point out that if you try and reflect Rakkaths projectiles you will heal him instead. And I love using the Ultimate in PvP on my Tanks and I know that many use it on Axes and newer people use it to train. So not a bad ultimate at all.

@Liofa
Not a suggestion but gonna set a scenario to discuss. What if DK tanks were unable to use Engulfing Flames or for whatever reason mDKs or healers got infavor. What would/should the selling point of a DK Tank be then? If Damage buffs are always gonna be the meta then simply adding damage buffs to all classes seems like a flavor of the month power creep. Cause unless it buffs all type of damage or the current flavor of the month then it will be a useless damage buff with no weight at all right? Engulfing flames buffs fire damage, fire damage is really popular right now and magicka NBs with Fire staffs seem to rule the trials. So for example adding Disease damage bonus to a NB tank for example will probably not do much in turning it into a more favorable Trial tank choice. So if we had no damage buffs like that for tanks, remove engulfing flames or have a setting where its more optimized to have a DPS or healer run it. Then what would be the reason people used DKs over another Class or vise versa? Again not a suggestion

RPGplayer13579 wrote: »

I know this may be slightly off topic but what is the upper limit on spell and physical resistance?

@RPGplayer13579
Its 33,000 reach the mitigation limit but you can go beyond that to protect yourself from penetration in PvP.

Checkmath wrote: »

I really like the idea of flavors a tank could bring into a raid group. But at this point those flavors need to be significant differences between the classes. At the moment we have at least with the offensive buffing dragonknight already some kind of flavor, but the current meta favors stack and burn, avoid mechanics by boosting dps, so that actually the engulfing flames outshadows the use of other classes in most cases. In your scenario the other classes need to excel at their own flavor to such a degree, that a templar tank would allow one healer to switch to only off-healing, so that he can pull a significant amount of dps. This would make up for the loss of those offensive buffs a Dk provides. The nightblade tank would need to pull pretty high dps himself to justify its presence in raids. And a warden maybe would have to excel in defensive buffs to such a degree, that damage dealers could go for single stat bufffood, so that they can pull higher numbers again. (Since OP didnt have an idea for sorcerer tanks, i just leave them out for my comment.)

Something similar like this would have to implemented to make all kind of tanks really viable and desirable. This would make the group leader choose between the different classes. Maybe same could apply for choosing the healer classes. But again, this game also needs to be balanced around PvP to some extent and you surely see, that probably all three classes templars, wardens and nightblades must not be released into PvP with those kind of abilities. This would be very unbalanced and would lead to truly immortal templar tanks with great self healing and survivability, meanwhile nightblade tanks could easely kill stuff due to their high damage capabilities and wardens would grant tremendous defensive stats to groups (we cant always balance around groups, there are also solo PvP players ). Meanwhile the offensive buff of engulfing flames is not significant at all for PvP, not even relevant for group play, since in PvP damage is less flame based and enemies have the ability to cleanse a debuff. This skill only gets relevant for the dragonknight itself, if he is based on magicka.

Sure I would love to see some kind of flavors every class could bring into a trial group, I would love to see some more utility on the non-meta tank classes. I dont want to see the classes being equal (ok maybe sustain could be a bit more even between classes, so sorcs and nightblades could use some help, meanwhile templars could work fine with an ice staff as mainweapon and sword and shield offbar). But as you can see, such stuff is very hard to balance.

Indeed, what type of toolkits would you like to see for non meta tanks? What do you think they can add in PvE to make them more viable in Trials without making them OP in PvP. Also what would be your thoughts on what I wrote a bit earlier about seeing DK Tanks not using engulfing flames for whatever reason and focus more on its utility?

paulsimonps · August 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@MerlinPendragon , everyone's entitled to own opinion, of course. I personally don't see much diversity in locking classes into specific roles. It's so terribly uniform when in trials, all you see is templar/warden healers, DK tanks and nightblade damage dealers. It's already bad enough that there's racial meta pressure and people get ridiculed for deciding to play a bosmer tank, for instance. Making it official that classes can only excel at certain roles will make things so much worse.

@John_Falstaff

Great comment, locking classes into specific roles is a terrible idea and people have been complaining about it since launch. The flavor of the month sure has rotated a lot during the years but when things are not in your favor it really sucks to have your class be unwanted and shunned for their role choices. Take mDKs for example, they are almost never seen in PvE anymore, and before the off balance changes they were deliberately hated on if they used one of their main skills. The gameplay idea of ZOS is play as you want, but with things being locked to only a few choices being viable that simply isnt true. But while making things more even everything must still being a unique selling point.

GuyNamedSean · August 2018

In my opinion, these are the way the tanks should all work.

Dragonknight: Damage buffing tank
Sorcerer: Controlling / Damage dealing tank
Nightblade: Mitigation / Damage dealing tank
Templar: Paladin heal tank
Warden: Defensive buffing tank

The main things I see needing to change for each tank are as follows.

Dragonknight: DKs are already the best tanks, so they don't really need any help. Molten Weapons is fairly useless, as most DPS already get the buff from potions.
Sorcerer: Really I feel like they just need a class equivalent to Engulfing Flames that would increase Shock damage. I may be forgetting some things, as it's been a very long time since I seriously used my Sorcerer.
Nightblade: I agree with a lot of @Silver_Strider's suggestions from earlier in the thread, but Siphoning Strikes needs a return to its pre-Morrowind mechanics. I'm also not sure Cloak should be changed.
Templar: Templars are in desperate need of good tanking skills. An effective root and some health scaled abilities would go a long way. Honestly, Templar is the only class I can never motivate myself to level a tank for.
Warden: Wardens are already really good tanks. In fact, the only reason I can see a DK being better than a Warden is through better sustain granted by passives and through Engulfing Flames. Wardens make up for that with great off-heals, similar to a Templar.

Royaji · August 2018

In my opinion the whole "DK is a damage buffing tank because of engulfing flames" thing and it being the reason DKs are the meta tanks is ridiculous. DKs were THE tanks for several years. They were meta when raids were stamina heavy. They were meta when everybody and their grandma was a HA pet sorc. And they are still meta now in 7 NB raids too. It has nothing to do with engulfing. 10% extra flame damage is nice but it never was the defining feature of DK tanks.

paulsimonps · August 2018

Royaji wrote: »

In my opinion the whole "DK is a damage buffing tank because of engulfing flames" thing and it being the reason DKs are the meta tanks is ridiculous. DKs were THE tanks for several years. They were meta when raids were stamina heavy. They were meta when everybody and their grandma was a HA pet sorc. And they are still meta now in 7 NB raids too. It has nothing to do with engulfing. 10% extra flame damage is nice but it never was the defining feature of DK tanks.

@Royaji
Sure, that is true, that wasn't why they were the kings of tanking before. However with the changes that have happened over the years and the addition of the Wardens it has become its crowning feature. Disregarding Engulfing flames then, why do more people stay with the DK Tanks and not the Warden? They both got great sustain and mitigation and defensive group buffs. Why do DKs win? They play almost the same in style too.

And what can we add to the other classes to bring them closer to the power of the DKs?

Narvuntien · August 2018

It should be quite do able to balance unique tanking in the classes.

I like using the silver leash, there isn't a lot of places you have to perma block or whatever my stam sustain is fine.

What bugs me is not being able to time stop then leash in all the ads before it goes off because they have cc immunity. But for some reason talons doesn't count as cc so you can hold down the ads... that sucks for non dks. Change that somehow let the intuitive thing be the thing.

Non dk non warden can really struggle with sustaining block. Meditate is super strong though... Remove any and all instances wear perminately blocking is the optimal stratgey if any thing i'd put in mechanics that punish it and you'll see changes in the types of tanks.

Being good at defending yourself is pretty good for a tank but sinces its stupidly easy to hit defense cap then add block and protection buffs its way more important to be providing group damage buffs.

aeowulf · August 2018

I loved sap tank - The whole drain your enemies and heal you/your allies thing worked. NB did not need AE root because the amount of healing they did offset the additional damage your group members took. (from mobs being uncontrolled & the fight taking longer) It worked well like that, and that was unique to NB. I'd love to see that return, and it keeps NB tanks 'a bit different' They were not OP, they were not 'desired' outside pugs, but they could hold their own and were a lot of fun. Rather than have every class play the same, a return to some classes not having root is fine but they have to have an alternative to counter the additional damage taken by the group. It was their equivalent of DK shields I guess.

The only change i'd make would be to return all class based sustain changes that occured with Morrowind to their previous versions. Those changes did not make ESO more fun. If they wanted to address damage creep, they should of done it by targeting damage creep bcause these indirect approaches often do not work.