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Medium Armor - Why it's Bad & How to Fix it
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Roll Dodge is so strong right now
Tell that to 90% of stamina players who currently spam steel tornado like their lives depended on it (or jabs if they're stamplar). The whole day I spent PvPing I think I met one (melee) stamblade who didn't spin2win. One.
You use Spin2win on a roll Dodge build
As for countering spin2win, you gotta have swift and majir expedition and the ability to move 6m away1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Shuffle is not weapon skill, even mag builds can use it.
That's why it has greatly reduced buff time.
While Momentum is 2h skill, that can be used only with 2h. Well, said it like there is stam builds without 2h on one of the bars, lol.
Shuffle is an armor skill that can only be used with 5 pieces of medium armor slotted. Do you run medium armor on your magicka builds?
Lol, remember this skill since long ago, when it hasn't required this. Not using evasion skills at all, even on staminer...
Well, still it's more universal skill than Momemntum, right?
Not really, because even magicka builds often off bar (or main bar) 2H for Forward Momentum. I'm yet to see a magicka build run medium armor...Waffennacht wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »Roll Dodge is so strong right now
Tell that to 90% of stamina players who currently spam steel tornado like their lives depended on it (or jabs if they're stamplar). The whole day I spent PvPing I think I met one (melee) stamblade who didn't spin2win. One.
You use Spin2win on a roll Dodge build
As for countering spin2win, you gotta have swift and majir expedition and the ability to move 6m away
And when they use swift & speed pots as well, then what? Especially if they're heavy armor builds you can't even counterburst because too much health/mitigation
But let's not make this about spin2win - the real problem is medium armor's weakness when being swarmed by people using undodgeable abilities. Jabs/sweeps are just as problematic, atleast when you try to escape (2s snare/root immunity from Shuffle doesn't do much against that 70% snare that keeps getting reapplied), same with Fossilizes (you are pretty much always rooted on a medium armor build where as a heavy build with FM isn't) and so on...0 -
SilverWF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Waffennacht wrote: »
Btw it's right here:
What is "it", please?
That screens proves nothing, you know, right?
- PC EU. Ebonheart Pact. CP 1k+
- YouTube: All ESO disguises (2014)
- EU players are humans too! We want our maintenances in the least pop time (at deep night) and not lasted for several hours!
- Animation canceR - is true PvP cancer! When you can't see which actions your opponent do - you can't react properly on them!
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Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Waffennacht wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »Roll Dodge is so strong right now
Tell that to 90% of stamina players who currently spam steel tornado like their lives depended on it (or jabs if they're stamplar). The whole day I spent PvPing I think I met one (melee) stamblade who didn't spin2win. One.
You use Spin2win on a roll Dodge build
As for countering spin2win, you gotta have swift and majir expedition and the ability to move 6m away
Bruh, steel tornado is 9m, the builds using it have Major Expedition and 2 Swift as well, its an instant cast. You are only out running them if they are bad.
IMHO Mediums only counter to spin2win is to kill them before they kill you. Whoever drops low first loses the majority of the time. BGs these days everyone is running around like crazy all hoping their opponents make a mistake and miss on their ulty dump before turning and dumping their own ulties and spinning like crazy.
Dodge is incredibly strong against builds that do not build to counter it. Its garbage against builds that build to counter it. Mag Wardens are in a bad spot but otherwise everyone else can counter dodge just fine if they run a balanced build.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Forward Momentum
8s->4s
When this ability is used in a heavy armor build, they're able to become just as snare/root resistant as a medium armor dodge roller - even more so if that medium armor player uses Shuffle (only 2s snare/root immunity). I think Forward Momentum also prevents people from kiting heavy armor builds, which means they get to stay on top of you and keep dealing damage constantly (making them seem much stronger damage wise than they actually are). This is why 4s (or even 2s) duration would be much more appropriate for this skill.
I think you mean to be talking about Shuffle here since FM is not part of medium armor.
More importantly, it was just a few days ago Zos implemented some big changes to shuffle and such. (still to come for consoles). I suggest giving those changes time to sink in and see how things settle.Shuffle
2s->8s
Medium armor should have the best mobility in the game - this is why Shuffle needs to be improved. It is one of the most expensive stamina skills in the game, so having to constantly refresh a 23s duration ability for two seconds of snare immunity is pretty messed up.
It is debatable if medium armor should have the best mobility. Light armor is merely cloth, both lighter and seems to be less restrictive.
More importantly, this seems to be a complaint about the frequency of refreshing the buff. It is pretty consistent with buffs in this game. and the cost is probably more relative to the strong defensive buff it provides. Great skill IMO.
Thank you for your thoughts. It is good to think of different ideas.
Edited by idk on August 19, 2018 8:00AM0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Mobility needs a complete overhaul. Half of the people cant even move and the other half move so damn fast to the point where u cant even hit them. Swift, snares, roots, speed pots, shuffle, FM etc, everything need to go back to the drawing board.
Speed cap doesnt need to be increased cause it would be impossible to fight those people. What needs to happen is to balance the snare/expedition system so that only certain playstyles can run that fast. Simply put, a heavy armor tank shouldnt be able to hit speed cap with 100% uptime without even casting an ability. Same applies with snares and roots. They should be given to certain playstyles. Not to be attached on every single skill line in the game.Edited by pieratsos on August 18, 2018 11:59PM5 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭For the most part I agree with the ideas. Speed cap changes, movement speed not sprint speed, FM reduction (its super strong, I use it)
8s however is in my opinion too long though on shuffle. It can be unchained, provides a decent defense and the trade off is minimal (FM trades a burst which is significant) since medium isn't as large a trade off and is even better for certain classes.
A lower immunity is less taxing on medium because snares are caused by either AoEs or direct damage which you would avoid generally. So in my opinion 4s immunity at max is fine on it.
The issue with shuffle was that you aren't being attacked enough to proc the dodge enough reliably. A good idea in my eyes would be swapping immovables premise effect with shuffles. So heavy can stand with a better outnumbered defense, and medium gets away better. I would change it away from immunity though, instead, "the next CC within 5s is avoided" so you can also use it proactively outside of unchained for an extra effect for its full cost.
These changes would have to come with snare changes too. Immunity/snares is way too strong in the mean time, they can make certain classes completely unable to attack you, but then those without it are constantly 60% snared. I wish snares were instead multiplicative, so they hurt the speed stackers harder, and immunity was changed to reduction instead. Of course this'd come with maj/min system so they'd be a cap, and a change to how frequent snares and roots are.Edited by ak_pvp on August 19, 2018 1:53AMMagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.3 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I've only read the OP and not the rest of the discussion yet, but I have to say I dislike the OP proposed changes overall and actually think medium is fine as is.
However, I do agree with reducing Forward Momentum immunity to 4 seconds.
I've also suggested in other threads that Shuffle should have both its cost and Major Evasion duration reduced by ~ 50%. Shuffle should be as spammable as FM and should also be less useful as a pre-buff skill. It should be a reactive skill that provides a short window of dodge chance to help turn the tables in a fight.Edited by Solariken on August 19, 2018 3:26AM1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Solariken , since you're proposing changes to Shuffle, any suggestion on how to make it (and the other morph) actually useful in PvE, maybe? Having PvP-specific ability in armor skill line is plain weird.0 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shuffle's shorter snare immunity duration is justified because compared to Forward Momentum's Major Brutality and small HoT, Major Evasion is a lot stronger as it allows you to take 0 damage from all dodgeable attacks and are rare in buff sources where as Major Brutality and HoTs are abundant in sources and are not really that potent.
Speedcap is fine as is. We already have too fast of builds running around like bowtards or 1vXers when things go south.
We are at a point which if we buff MA our already unbalanced and fragile balance will fall apart. Sure it sucks that only NBs can really utilize MA to its full potential but there are a lot more stam damage buff sets in HA than it does on magicka thankfully. It is as if MA was made for NBs and heavy for other classes speccing into stam. Until we have complete armor weights rework, I oppose the buffs to MA.Edited by IZZEFlameLash on August 19, 2018 3:57AMImperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@IZZEFlameLash , I just have to ask a variation of the question I've asked one comment above; if Major Evasion is so potent, why nobody's slotting it in PvE? (While magicka's universally slotting Harness.)0 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@IZZEFlameLash , I just have to ask a variation of the question I've asked one comment above; if Major Evasion is so potent, why nobody's slotting it in PvE? (While magicka's universally slotting Harness.)
Why do you even need it in PvE trial runs other than on Tava's tank? Why do you think you need it when you have 2 dedicated healers with no 50% heal debuff? Why do you think DPS need to slot it when they can fill the bars with skills that will buff their DPS in one way or the other?Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@IZZEFlameLash , are we still talking about medium armor? The skill can only be used with 5 or more medium pieces slotted, and I've not seen a lot of tanks running medium armor.
But yes, "why" is exactly what I'm asking you.
Why light armor has a skill that is useful (and used) by PvE damage dealers, but medium armor has a skill that is useless in same scenario? 0 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@IZZEFlameLash , are we still talking about medium armor? The skill can only be used with 5 or more medium pieces slotted, and I've not seen a lot of tanks running medium armor.
But yes, "why" is exactly what I'm asking you. Why light armor has a skill that is useful (and used) by PvE damage dealers, but medium armor has a skill that is useless in same scenario?
Yes, we are still talking about Shuffle. I play stam DPS in PvE and have never really felt the need to slot it because I don't need to dodge it when tanks do good job at holding aggro usually and my damage is huge enough to melt trash. Not all magicka builds also slot shields when DPS unless the game mechanic which is undodgeable usually demands so. And in general, PvE mechanics favor range and ranged DPS only come in magicka usually. Also, you cannot deny the potency of it in PvP. How many times have I missed my attacks because the dodge chance proc'd, if I got a quarter for every miss, I'd be rich. I also have escaped with dodge chance procs in PvP. Like it or not, PvE is not about dodging unlike PvP. And MA is quite focused on PvP.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel0 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yeah well you raise a valid point @John_Falstaff, but IMO it's not that Shuffle isn't a useful PvE skill, it's just that in a group setting it's not as useful because you have external support and a huge subset of damage in trials is AoE and/or mechanically driven. Blade Cloak is obviously a more potent mitigation skill in those settings.
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John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@IZZEFlameLash , you didn't quite reply as to how a tank would run Shuffle (are medium armor tanks even a thing outside non-DLC dungeons?), but all right. As it happens, I also play stam DPS in PvE, and I have hard time to believe that you don't have to roll-dodge out of AoE that would otherwise one-shot you, even in regular dungeons, let alone 12-man content. So you say that light armor is slotting Harness in PvE because of undodgeable mechanics, but for some reason you also state that medium armor shouldn't have any extra defense (even despite not having range as natural mitigation) because 2 dedicated healers and no healing debuff is enough for anything? I feel a contradiction here.
> And MA is quite focused on PvP.
I rest my case. I'm not sure where it came from, that medium armor is focused on PvP. In fact, I already delivered the point I was trying to express: people focused on PvP are sitting in Cyrodiil most of the time, and then they end up not knowing that Shuffle can only be used while running medium armor (for almost a year already, just in case), thinking that tank holding aggro is enough not to dodge, stating that medium armor is PvP focused, mixing it with statements like "PvE is for range anyway and and ranged DPS means magicka" and "MA is quite focused on PvP", "PvE is not about dodging" and generally being surprised that there's a world outside Cyrodiil and non-DLC pugs where stamina DPS also - surprise - wants to be on par with magicka. What do they want, those strange people in PvE? They have two healers, and anyway they should've rolled magicka long time ago for their trials and DLC dungeons.
And then it all gets into polls, and we have fascinating charts that have nothing to do with actual state of things or even common sense. I stop here.2 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Solariken , but magicka in group content does universally slot shields. And, outside of easiest content, uses that shield (even despite having range as natural added mitigation). So apparently external support isn't sufficient, and magicka does make use of mitigation provided by armor line. So why people feel it's normal that medium armor's defining skill is useless in PvE? Stamina is naturally exposed to more damage (as any melee), Blade Cloak is limited (only one type of damage, locked behind DW, mitigates less and can't be spammed unlike shields), so all things equal, medium armor users lose in survivability. That's why I asked if you have any ideas on how to make medium armor skill line as useful for stamina in PvE as Harness is for magicka. Cloak just isn't cutting it.1 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@IZZEFlameLash , you didn't quite reply as to how a tank would run Shuffle (are medium armor tanks even a thing outside non-DLC dungeons?), but all right. As it happens, I also play stam DPS in PvE, and I have hard time to believe that you don't have to roll-dodge out of AoE that would otherwise one-shot you, even in regular dungeons, let alone 12-man content. So you say that light armor is slotting Harness in PvE because of undodgeable mechanics, but for some reason you also state that medium armor shouldn't have any extra defense (even despite not having range as natural mitigation) because 2 dedicated healers and no healing debuff is enough for anything? I feel a contradiction here.
> And MA is quite focused on PvP.
I rest my case. I'm not sure where it came from, that medium armor is focused on PvP. In fact, I already delivered the point I was trying to express: people focused on PvP are sitting in Cyrodiil most of the time, and then they end up not knowing that Shuffle can only be used while running medium armor (for almost a year already, just in case), thinking that tank holding aggro is enough not to dodge, stating that medium armor is PvP focused, mixing it with statements like "PvE is for range anyway and and ranged DPS means magicka" and "MA is quite focused on PvP", "PvE is not about dodging" and generally being surprised that there's a world outside Cyrodiil and non-DLC pugs where stamina DPS also - surprise - wants to be on par with magicka. What do they want, those strange people in PvE? They have two healers, and anyway they should've rolled magicka long time ago for their trials and DLC dungeons.
And then it all gets into polls, and we have fascinating charts that have nothing to do with actual state of things or even common sense. I stop here.
MA tanks can be a thing. Armor weight doesn't really matter on most contents. It is entirely up for tank's skill as... well... as a tank. And with Fortified Brass, if one wants to lose out on utility to gain faster ult uptime, one can use that set. Or Hist Bark and Tava combo in place of utility sets. Also, dodge rolling out of red circle is faster than walking out which is why it is dodge rolled. And those AoEs tend to be undodgeable because the moment your input lags, you die mid dodge roll.
MA can be very PvP oriented armor weight because dodge chance really shines on PvP. You get more benefit out of dodge chance when there are dodgeable things and in an unpredictable environment (NPCs have set pattern for the eternity unless it is changed by the devs but humans don't). Shuffle not used in PvE has more to do with the contents than the efficiency as an ability. And PvP environment is superb for it. Now. You must answer me, why do you think Shuffle should be useful in PvE other than 'because LA has shield used in both'?Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@IZZEFlameLash , on most content weight doesn't matter? And you seriously feel that setup is common in vet content? Or think that ground AoE from some overcharger is scripted and appears at predefined time in predefined location, and not governed by a lot of random factors, including your own group's positioning (which is a product of quite random input from your controller)? I also didn't understand what the sentence about walking vs rolling out of red and input lag was an answer to. But then again, whole thing doesn't make sense to me, so I gave up.
So, about Shuffle, the answer "because it's an armor skill" isn't enough for you? You see, medium armor, contrary to what you're thinking, is used by stamina DPS in PvE too. Very widely used. We're not given other armor type for that task in PvE, and since armor is used in both worlds, its skills must not be exclusive to just one. It's really common sense. We have one defining skill for each armor type that is supposed to be in line. So, in case of medium armor, that defining skill is useless for at least half the game's content. Make ZOS declare that medium armor is PvP exclusive - and you can have PvP exclusive skills on it. But so far, didn't happen.0 -
Maryal✭✭✭✭✭
✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@IZZEFlameLash , are we still talking about medium armor? The skill can only be used with 5 or more medium pieces slotted, and I've not seen a lot of tanks running medium armor.
But yes, "why" is exactly what I'm asking you. Why light armor has a skill that is useful (and used) by PvE damage dealers, but medium armor has a skill that is useless in same scenario?
As a medium armor build, deadly cloak is a much better choice as a pve damage dealer. It's more useful to have a defined % reduction in AOE damage than to have an RNG 'chance' at evasion. Also, deadly cloak deals damage ... much more useful to a medium armor damage dealer than 3.5 seconds of snare immunity.
There was a time when evasion was a lot more popular ... back when we had fewer choices, back when 'proc sets' consisted mainly of Engine Guardian and Skoria (and to a lesser degree, the Morag Tong armor set), and when vampires could almost spam-cast swarm (because of how ulti was generated back then).
I suppose in today's meta you could create a build around 'evasion' ... in which case shuffle would probably be preferable, well, maybe it would be. IMO, however, the benefits of shuffle don't warrant the bar space or the resources to cast it.
We have infinitely more options (armor, jewelry, poisons, potions, etc) than we did a few years ago, and these options diminish the value shuffle once held. Today, some people use it for the evasion, but if it didn't provide those few seconds of snare immunity I doubt many people would even bother with it (in pvp). IMO, I'd much rather use an immovability pot on an 'as needed' basis than slot/use shuffle. I prefer to dodge-roll than pray to RNGesus for a chance to evade something.Edited by Maryal on August 19, 2018 7:37AM0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agree with the spirit of the OP, however (and i know this will not be popular) i think before you start increasing the speed/cap, battle spirit needs to cut all speed boosts (active and passive) in half. Maybe with the exception of riding speed. Otherwise we'll end up with this:
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John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Maryal , I feel you might've misunderstood me - I was trying to make a different point. Of course deadly cloak is much better than Evasion. Literally anything is better than Evasion for PvE damage dealer. Which is precisely the root of the problem - it's not worth slot and stamina spent. What I'm comparing Shuffle with is light armor's Harness Magicka, which is an armor skill that's actively used in both PvP and PvE. The fact that Cloak (from weapon line) is currently a better defense in PvE than a skill that's supposed to be an identity skill for armor line is the apotheosis of things gone wrong.Edited by John_Falstaff on August 19, 2018 7:56AM1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Forward Momentum
8s->4s
When this ability is used in a heavy armor build, they're able to become just as snare/root resistant as a medium armor dodge roller - even more so if that medium armor player uses Shuffle (only 2s snare/root immunity). I think Forward Momentum also prevents people from kiting heavy armor builds, which means they get to stay on top of you and keep dealing damage constantly (making them seem much stronger damage wise than they actually are). This is why 4s (or even 2s) duration would be much more appropriate for this skill.
I think you mean to be talking about Shuffle here since FM is not part of medium armor.
More importantly, it was just a few days ago Zos implemented some big changes to shuffle and such. (still to come for consoles). I suggest giving those changes time to sink in and see how things settle.Shuffle
2s->8s
Medium armor should have the best mobility in the game - this is why Shuffle needs to be improved. It is one of the most expensive stamina skills in the game, so having to constantly refresh a 23s duration ability for two seconds of snare immunity is pretty messed up.
It is debatable if medium armor should have the best mobility. Light armor is merely cloth, both lighter and seems to be less restrictive.
More importantly, this seems to be a complaint about the frequency of refreshing the buff. It is pretty consistent with buffs in this game. and the cost is probably more relative to the strong defensive buff it provides. Great skill IMO.
Thank you for your thoughts. It is good to think of different ideas.
Nothing changed regarding Shuffle in this patch, but snares/roots in general got tuned down. I bring up Forward Momentum because it is the main reason why heavy armor builds are able to have better mobility (by what logic does this make any sense?) than medium, and why the snare/root immunity durations need to be switched on FM & Shuffle.
Do that, and heavy armor builds will still move as fast (which is still a big problem) as medium, but won't be able to ignore snares/roots as much.
Also Shuffle isn't really "consistent with buffs in this game". All you need to do is take a look at the other way of getting Major Evasion in this game, Mirage/Double Take:
Shuffle 3716 Stamina (7 Medium)
23s duration=161,56 stamina/second (i.e. takes 323 of your stam regen to keep up 24/7)
Double Take 3019 Magicka (7 Light)
26s duration=116,11 magicka/second (takes 232 of your mag regen)
Ok, what if you use Shuffle for the snare/root immunity instead?
Shuffle 3716 Stamina (7 Medium)
3,5s duration=1061,71 stamina/second (takes 2123,42 of your stam regen)
Forward Momentum 1664 Stamina (7 Medium)
8s duration=208 stamina/second (takes 416 of your stam regen)
It's just not good enough.1 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭@DDuke
I strongly disagree about changing the speed cap.
Mobility in a MMO is something that need to be capped.
The actual speed cap is great and remove it or making it higher would bring severe broken and overpowered build.
Extreme mobility is forbidden in MMO because it create imbalance between those hwo can avoid being hit by simply breaking the skill range + being always sure to escape and between those hwo cannot follow, escape, or hit extreme mobile target.
Giving 15% mobility to medium armor can be a good thing, but keep the cap to avoid unbalance.
Stamina already have very good mobility because speed + lingering potion are BiS, because stamina can have snare immunity and because stamina can stack swift with theze things and with sprint.Edited by Aedaryl on August 19, 2018 11:41AM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDuke
I strongly disagree about changing the speed cap.
Mobility in a MMO is something that need to be capped.
The actual speed cap is great and remove it or making it higher would bring severe broken and overpowered build.
Extreme mobility is forbidden in MMO because it create imbalance between those hwo can avoid being hit by simply breaking the skill range + being always sure to escape and between those hwo cannot follow, escape, or hit extreme mobile target.
Giving 15% mobility to medium armor can be a good thing, but keep the cap to avoid unbalance.
Stamina already have very good mobility because speed + lingering potion are BiS, because stamina can have snare immunity and because stamina can stack swift with theze things and with sprint.
Ok, Mojo made that same point earlier.
How would you prevent then heavy armor builds having as much (or more) mobility than medium armor builds, when they can move just as fast and have vastly better snare/root immunity?
The problem is that while stamina does stack things like speed pots & swift jewelry (although nothing stops magicka from doing the same tbh), it doesn't distinguish between heavy and medium.
The only difference in mobility medium brings is the extra sprint speed, which is totally useless as people move at a speed cap already with those speed pots & swift jewelry (whether they're heavy or medium), meaning holding shift or whatever you have for sprint accomplishes only one thing: stops your stamina regen.Edited by DDuke on August 19, 2018 12:05PM1 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »
Btw it's right here:
What is "it", please?
That screens proves nothing, you know, right?
Mine was a death match recap and yours domination - big difference in K/D ratio for the play style
I have tons more - edit - tons more pictures of K/D Deathmatch
It's medium impreg + well-fitted x2 Swift eternal hunt Stam sorc.
I think in like 6 Deathmatchs I've died twice
Hell chaos ball is hilarious with dodge minor and major expedition and x2 Swift + dark conversion
I'm the motha Find gingerbread man, catch me if you can lmfaoEdited by Waffennacht on August 19, 2018 12:17PM0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nerf speed overall (swift, expedition, expedition pots) and remove regen block from sprint and suddenly you have mobility as defense used by all but more benefiting medium armor while making mobility skillful defense (afterall sprint disables abilities and drains stamina) instead of something people just have on all the time.2 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭P.S. there's an insta gib bug with eternal hunt and opponents AoEs
Just an fyi, I'll try to get a video of it
It's pretty funny0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭@DDuke
I strongly disagree about changing the speed cap.
Mobility in a MMO is something that need to be capped.
The actual speed cap is great and remove it or making it higher would bring severe broken and overpowered build.
Extreme mobility is forbidden in MMO because it create imbalance between those hwo can avoid being hit by simply breaking the skill range + being always sure to escape and between those hwo cannot follow, escape, or hit extreme mobile target.
Giving 15% mobility to medium armor can be a good thing, but keep the cap to avoid unbalance.
Stamina already have very good mobility because speed + lingering potion are BiS, because stamina can have snare immunity and because stamina can stack swift with theze things and with sprint.
Ok, Mojo made that same point earlier.
How would you prevent then heavy armor builds having as much (or more) mobility than medium armor builds, when they can move just as fast and have vastly better snare/root immunity?
The problem is that while stamina does stack things like speed pots & swift jewelry (although nothing stops magicka from doing the same tbh), it doesn't distinguish between heavy and medium.
The only difference in mobility medium brings is the extra sprint speed, which is totally useless as people move at a speed cap already with those speed pots & swift jewelry (whether they're heavy or medium), meaning holding shift or whatever you have for sprint accomplishes only one thing: stops your stamina regen.
You pointed something true, heavy armor and medium armor speed is similar and I agree it's a problem.
However, increasing speed cap is NOT the solution.
The change you ask for shuffle/FW are a good thing, and it would help a bit, but I think the problem come from speed potions.
Saying magicka build can use swift and speed potion is a possibility but it doesn't synergize well with magicka build.
Magicka build have hard time with sustain, skill cost higher and they can't rely on HA to sustain. They also need to save their stamina for block/dodge and break free, sprinting is not a good option and speed potion don't synergize at all with magicka since their is no magicka speed potion available. And magicka need magicka regen bonus (and stamina in outnumbered fight) to manage their ressources.
You don't see magicka build with extreme speed simply because they don't have the synergy and tool stamina build have with sprint, speed potion, stamina managment and snare/root removal + immunity.
Returning to the Hevay vs Medium mobility problem, I thing adding 15% speed bonus and nerfing FA is enough to make medium armor the best mobile. Also, medium armor have reduced sprint cost.
Maybe adding the notion of "weigh" could be a good thing, nerf the heavy armor speed by 15%, so heavy and medium have a speed difference of 30% and it would also help light armor build that have hard time to have access to major expedition.Edited by Aedaryl on August 19, 2018 12:38PM1