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Medium Armor - Why it's Bad & How to Fix it
DDuke
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/431189/class-reps-meeting-notes-august-16/p1Light and Medium Armor do not compare favorably to Heavy Armor (mostly in PvP: it’s easier to get good damage, sustain, and mitigation from heavy)
So after reading the notes from last class rep meeting I thought I'd make this thread, maybe get some opinions from other people as well.
The way I see it is that medium armor doesn't underperform compared to heavy because it lacks damage (you get more damage in medium & can even run a strong heavy set like Ravager or Fury as jewelry/weapons), not because of mitigation (that is heavy armor's thing: tanking damage), not because of less healing but rather because it lacks the unique edge it should have over other builds: mobility.
Currently the biggest obstacles to surviving in medium armor are undodgeable abilities, and most of those happen in melee range (jabs/sweeps, spin2win, fossilize etc), as well as various boss mechanics in PvE.
So what I'm trying to say is that instead of nerfing heavy armor's damage or giving medium armor more mitigation/healing, perhaps more thought should be put into how medium armor builds could use mobility better to avoid damage (i.e. outrange undodgeable melee abilities, run behind LOS faster etc). Here's a few ways medium armor could be improved in this regard:
Forward Momentum
8s->4s
When this ability is used in a heavy armor build, they're able to become just as snare/root resistant as a medium armor dodge roller - even more so if that medium armor player uses Shuffle (only 2s snare/root immunity). I think Forward Momentum also prevents people from kiting heavy armor builds, which means they get to stay on top of you and keep dealing damage constantly (making them seem much stronger damage wise than they actually are). This is why 4s (or even 2s) duration would be much more appropriate for this skill.
Shuffle
2,5-3,5s->8s
Medium armor should have the best mobility in the game - this is why Shuffle needs to be improved. It is one of the most expensive stamina skills in the game, so having to constantly refresh a 23s duration ability for two seconds of snare immunity is pretty messed up.
Here's how it compares to other abilities:
Major Evasion
Shuffle 3716 Stamina (7 Medium)
23s duration=161,56 stamina/second (i.e. takes 323 of your stam regen to keep up 24/7)
Double Take 3019 Magicka (7 Light)
26s duration=116,11 magicka/second (takes 232 of your mag regen)
Snare/Root Immunity
Shuffle 3716 Stamina (7 Medium)
3,5s duration=1061,71 stamina/second (takes 2123,42 of your stam regen)
Forward Momentum 1664 Stamina (7 Medium)
8s duration=208 stamina/second (takes 416 of your stam regen)
Athletics Passive
Increases the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 3% for each piece of Medium Armor equipped.
I think there's not much value in this part of the passive, especially considering that most top tier builds already run two Swift jewelry and go way beyond the speed cap (making Sprint useless). I believe a flat movement speed increase for medium armor builds would help a lot (as sprinting is extremely risky in PvP and not just due to the sprint bug) and would let medium armor builds run something else than Swift jewelry or still run Swift jewelry if speed cap was increased. Which brings me to...
Speed Cap
It is way too easy to reach it. All you need is one swift jewelry and Major Expedition and you already go over it while sprinting. Stamina sorcerers don't even need Swift jewelry to reach it (thanks to Minor Expedition). Same with werewolves, who go way beyond the cap if they happen to wear medium & sprint.
Two swift jewelry and you basically don't even notice a difference between normal movement speed and sprinting.
Speed cap should be increased from 200% to 250% in my opinion, or alternatively sprint speed should be able to go ignore the cap (as it's an additive +40% bonus anyway, or 61% with 7 medium).
That's all I've got for now, thanks for reading.
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John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I wrote about it in different thread, and I'll write here, again. I think that Shuffle is unusable in PvE. It has to go altogether; no amount of extending duration will ever help to revive a skill that defends the user in random fashion. It's no help to a party if a DPS who failed to roll-dodge from one-shot is only 85% dead and caused 85% of a wipe. We're not playing Schrödinger's dungeons. There is a reason why nobody in PvE is running Shuffle (while all magicka is running Harness). Evasion isn't a defense at all, it's not giving any new gameplay device - it's not changing the fact that players must roll-dodge from danger. So, for good players it's redundant, for bad players, it makes no difference whatsoever. Medium armor, as it stands now, is impaired by a useless skill.5 -
AlexTheLion✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »I wrote about it in different thread, and I'll write here, again. I think that Shuffle is unusable in PvE. It has to go altogether; no amount of extending duration will ever help to revive a skill that defends the user in random fashion. It's no help to a party if a DPS who failed to roll-dodge from one-shot is only 85% dead and caused 85% of a wipe. We're not playing Schrödinger's dungeons. There is a reason why nobody in PvE is running Shuffle (while all magicka is running Harness). Evasion isn't a defense at all, it's not giving any new gameplay device - it's not changing the fact that players must roll-dodge from danger. So, for good players it's redundant, for bad players, it makes no difference whatsoever. Medium armor, as it stands now, is impaired by a useless skill.
Just because it isn’t used in PvE doesn’t mean it needs to go. That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read. You must have never played in PvP on a medium armor build if you think shuffle is a useless skill. Medium armor builds would literally get shredded without the dodge chance.1 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yea Shuffle is way too expencive for a ~2 second snare immunity, because you get snared by everything in cyro and need to recast this like every 5-10 seconds when getting high pressure. The sneak passive in medium is also pretty useless imo.
PC EU
PvP only1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »I wrote about it in different thread, and I'll write here, again. I think that Shuffle is unusable in PvE. It has to go altogether; no amount of extending duration will ever help to revive a skill that defends the user in random fashion. It's no help to a party if a DPS who failed to roll-dodge from one-shot is only 85% dead and caused 85% of a wipe. We're not playing Schrödinger's dungeons. There is a reason why nobody in PvE is running Shuffle (while all magicka is running Harness). Evasion isn't a defense at all, it's not giving any new gameplay device - it's not changing the fact that players must roll-dodge from danger. So, for good players it's redundant, for bad players, it makes no difference whatsoever. Medium armor, as it stands now, is impaired by a useless skill.
Well, to be fair Immovable doesn't see much use in PvE either (Harness does though). I think the best thing for medium armor's survivability there would be changing the Athletics passive to provide flat movement speed instead of sprint speed only, as this would make it much easier to survive certain mechanics, e.g. green beam+lightning in vAS+3 and other situations where you need to block while moving (or dodge roll).0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@AlexTheLion , you're right, I don't care much for PvP, but the fact you perceived the idea as dumb doesn't show you as a smartest person ever, I hope you realized that. I've just stated that Shuffle is useless in PvE (which is at least half the game's substance), but despite that, you insist on keeping medium armor with a skill that is useless in half the content simply because you need it for PvP. It's dumb, and it's selfish, so no. It doesn't work like that. Armor is used across PvP and PvE, and it can't stay with a skill that is only useful in one.
@DDuke , movement speed would be interesting change, yes. I'm so far not sure if it'll help by and large; how medium armor and newest trials (vAS / vCR) play together is a painful and separate topic, I think change must come both in content and in the armor. So, for now, I just was talking about Evasion as defining attribute of medium armor - it simply doesn't belong there.2 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree with all this.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Finviuswe✭✭✭✭Medium armor is the digital equivalent of garbage.
However, light armor can compare to heavy armor in terms of defensive ability when you take shields into account. The two are comparable but heavy armor, in the end offers superior defensive capability compared to light armor when you take into account that dodge roll is also viable on heavy armor.
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IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭Forward Momentum should have the longest snare immunity duration, otherwise it just isn't worth slotting over Rally. Decreasing the cost of Shuffle would allow it to be more accessible and not encroach on Forward Momentum.
Agree with the movement speed.
Medium could also benefit from passive AoE reduction. Would benefit both PvE and PvP. So say 8% reduction, increasing to 16% when dodge rolling. Maybe through some Impen into there, either making medium tankier or allowing them to invest into well-fitted more.
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Nord_Raseri✭✭✭✭✭
✭You stay away from my forward momentumVeit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.2 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Unpopular opinion but I dont think snares should be something people ignore forever (because they keep reapplying their immunity everytime they notice they got slightly slower). I actually feels the usefulness of snares is way too reduced now with how FM is common (while still being very much OP against builds that cant remove them at all). I think snares should be something people avoid actively (by pressing skill that removes them) when they feel the danger is way too high to stay being snared right now. Shuffle obviously needs cost reduction because its ridiculous, but the duration of shuffle snare immunity should stay same and that should be the ONLY way to get immunity (promoting the agility of medium over other builds).
I know, people have been complaining about snares for years and so on because they hate being slowed. But wouldnt hurt to look around and see that for all the complains no stamina builds are actually getting snared. Every medium or heavy armor build is running around at high speed never affected by snares (I know, those medium armor builds do it by sacrificing all sustain to spam shuffle). No organized groups get ever rooted or snared either.
Obviously some changes to snares would have to come with it (tho I think they are on good track with this patch). Other thing would be removing snares from anything that people find worth spamming even against people with constant snare immunity (means all other effects of such skill make it worth the use anyway) and probably anything long range (like shrouded dagger or silver bolts)
And yes this is barely related to the thread I know. Just felt like venting it out finally
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Maryal✭✭✭✭✭
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/431189/class-reps-meeting-notes-august-16/p1Light and Medium Armor do not compare favorably to Heavy Armor (mostly in PvP: it’s easier to get good damage, sustain, and mitigation from heavy)
So after reading the notes from last class rep meeting I thought I'd make this thread, maybe get some opinions from other people as well.
The way I see it is that medium armor doesn't underperform compared to heavy because it lacks damage (you get more damage in medium & can even run a strong heavy set like Ravager or Fury as jewelry/weapons), not because of mitigation (that is heavy armor's thing: tanking damage), not because of less healing but rather because it lacks the unique edge it should have over other builds: mobility.
Currently the biggest obstacles to surviving in medium armor are undodgeable abilities, and most of those happen in melee range (jabs/sweeps, spin2win, fossilize etc), as well as various boss mechanics in PvE.
So what I'm trying to say is that instead of nerfing heavy armor's damage or giving medium armor more mitigation/healing, perhaps more thought should be put into how medium armor builds could use mobility better to avoid damage (i.e. outrange undodgeable melee abilities, run behind LOS faster etc). Here's a few ways medium armor could be improved in this regard:
Forward Momentum
8s->4s
When this ability is used in a heavy armor build, they're able to become just as snare/root resistant as a medium armor dodge roller - even more so if that medium armor player uses Shuffle (only 2s snare/root immunity). I think Forward Momentum also prevents people from kiting heavy armor builds, which means they get to stay on top of you and keep dealing damage constantly (making them seem much stronger damage wise than they actually are). This is why 4s (or even 2s) duration would be much more appropriate for this skill.
Shuffle
2s->8s
Medium armor should have the best mobility in the game - this is why Shuffle needs to be improved. It is one of the most expensive stamina skills in the game, so having to constantly refresh a 23s duration ability for two seconds of snare immunity is pretty messed up.
Athletics Passive
Increases the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 3% for each piece of Medium Armor equipped.
I think there's not much value in this part of the passive, especially considering that most top tier builds already run two Swift jewelry and go way beyond the speed cap (making Sprint useless). I believe a flat movement speed increase for medium armor builds would help a lot (as sprinting is extremely risky in PvP and not just due to the sprint bug) and would let medium armor builds run something else than Swift jewelry or still run Swift jewelry if speed cap was increased. Which brings me to...
Speed Cap
It is way too easy to reach it. All you need is one swift jewelry and Major Expedition and you already go over it while sprinting. Stamina sorcerers don't even need Swift jewelry to reach it (thanks to Minor Expedition). Same with werewolves, who go way beyond the cap if they happen to wear medium & sprint.
Two swift jewelry and you basically don't even notice a difference between normal movement speed and sprinting.
Speed cap should be increased from 200% to 250% in my opinion, or alternatively sprint speed should be able to go ignore the cap (as it's an additive +40% bonus anyway, or 61% with 7 medium).
That's all I've got for now, thanks for reading.
Mobility is a key component to medium armor defense - whether that mobility is the result of moving in stealth, roll dodging, LOS, or speed.
While I'm not opposed to a slight increase to the current speed cap, there needs to be a cap on speed in this game. It shouldn't be like it was before where people could make their toons move so insanely fast that it triggered various physical ailments in a number of people trying to visually track them (motion sickness, migraine/headache, eye strain, epilepsy, etc.).Note: Sorc's zoom zoom ability doesn't fall in this category because they 'zoom' a relatively short distance in a straight line, whereas people that 'build for speed' weave in and about, dart here and there, change directions, etc.
Edited by Maryal on August 18, 2018 6:33PM1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭[removed quote]
Heh... you heavily oppose my suggestions. I'm sorry, I know you didn't mean it as a pun but I can't help but to view it as one.
A heavy armor build is able to achieve the exact same mobility (even better with Forward Momentum vs Shuffle). While simultaneously being (almost) impossible to burst, unlike medium. You don't see that as a problem?
I don't want to be playing a game where a heavy armor megatank can keep up with my (supposedly) swift & nimble 7 medium assassin in 2x swift jewelry & speed pots, while just shrugging off all my snares & roots with Forward Momentum and simultaneously spamming jabs/sweeps/steel tornado and snaring me 24/7 while I spam shuffle every two seconds unable to create any distance until I die because I ran out of stamina spamming shuffles & vigors just to desparately try and stay alive a few more seconds.Forward Momentum should have the longest snare immunity duration, otherwise it just isn't worth slotting over Rally. Decreasing the cost of Shuffle would allow it to be more accessible and not encroach on Forward Momentum.
Agree with the movement speed.
Medium could also benefit from passive AoE reduction. Would benefit both PvE and PvP. So say 8% reduction, increasing to 16% when dodge rolling. Maybe through some Impen into there, either making medium tankier or allowing them to invest into well-fitted more.
I don't think homogenizing the armor types is the solution here. If anything medium & heavy should be further apart from each other in terms of playstyle.
Currently the only way you can tell someone is using medium (and not heavy) is the amount of damage they take and whether they have Shuffle visual effect on.
How overpowered Forward Momentum is compared to Shuffle plays a large part in that, same as there being a speed cap (meaning every good heavy & medium build runs at the same speed in the end).Edited by ZOS_JesC on August 19, 2018 2:18PM2 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I like your suggestions, but they don't do much for melee builds with the exception of the ability changes.
Personally I think there's too much that's undodgeable, and not enough counterplay.
Things I would change: make all non-ground AoEs dodgeable. Make curse and backlash dodgeable, but not a projectile; however make it so if you get hit by these abilities the proc'd damage is undodgeable.
They should also make it so dodge rolling makes you immune to snares and roots for 2 seconds.
There should also be a form of crit resistance per piece of medium armor. 99 per piece.
They also need to make Soul Assault interruptible.
Now the unpopular opinion. Get rid of Evasion entirely. All of my previous suggestions sound a but on the strong side, but it's reliant on skillful play. There's nothing skillful about RNG dodging.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Roll Dodge is so strong right now
Tell that to 90% of stamina players who currently spam steel tornado like their lives depended on it (or jabs if they're stamplar). The whole day I spent PvPing I think I met one (melee) stamblade who didn't spin2win. One.Edited by DDuke on August 18, 2018 7:41PM4 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oh man, half of cyrodiil is roll dodging like theres no tomorrow. You are blind to that due to your bias. Dodge roll builds are almost invincible to a lot of range setups. Right now at the current state of the game.
You are, as always, cherrypicking the very few scenarios a dodge roll build has problems with and ignore that is only one half (if at all) of the coin. The other half can't ever dream of touching/finishing those builds already.
You lost it, completely. Not everyone is either a medium armor dodge roll nerd or a heavy armor stam tank. I get it, you don't like those HA stam builds and feel weak against them. But your "solution" would make you invincible to all those HA magicka builds lacking gapclosers and or stuns/executes in the process. That's not balance, that's having an agenda and trying to bruteforce it without considering collateral damage.Edited by Mojomonkeyman on August 18, 2018 7:54PMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Oh man, half of cyrodiil is roll dodging like theres no tomorrow. You are blind to that due to your bias. Dodge roll builds are almost invincible to a lot of range setups. Right now at the current state of the game.
You are, as always, cherrypicking the very few scenarios a dodge roll build has problems with and ignore that is only one half (if at all) of the coin. The other half can't ever dream of touching/finishing those builds already.
You lost it, completely. Not everyone is either a medium armor dodge roll nerd or a heavy armor stam tank. I get it, you don't like those HA stam builds and feel weak against them. But your "solution" would make you invincible to all those HA magicka builds lacking gapclosers and or stuns/executes in the process. That's not balance, that's having an agenda and trying to bruteforce it without considering collateral damage.
What are these "invincible dodge roll builds" and where can I find one? I see a lot more unkillable tank builds than dodge rollers, and those tanks can escape just as quick as a medium armor build (without having to worry about snares/roots as much).
Yes, in the right circumstances dodge roll is very strong (and should have better counters to it!), but those situations are few and far between.
If you go into PvP as a medium armor build right now, I can almost guarantee the first thing you'll see are 2-3 Xv1 heroes spamming steel tornado at you and killing you within a few seconds as you try to do all the right things to survive (use LOS, sprint out of melee range, block etc etc). Then they tbag you afterwards, probably thinking they're good players.
That *** needs counters, and I'm not saying "make more skills undodgeable" - I'm saying give medium armor more mobility so that it can avoid being swarmed by spin2win spammers & make shuffle give more CC immunity so that not only heavy armor tanks can survive those encounters (while being just as fast as medium armor builds).
I use Steel Tornado on my own melee stamblade atm btw, and it's pretty much free kills on anyone else in medium armor if I start spinning first and aren't outnumbered too much.2 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Oh man, half of cyrodiil is roll dodging like theres no tomorrow. You are blind to that due to your bias. Dodge roll builds are almost invincible to a lot of range setups. Right now at the current state of the game.
You are, as always, cherrypicking the very few scenarios a dodge roll build has problems with and ignore that is only one half (if at all) of the coin. The other half can't ever dream of touching/finishing those builds already.
You lost it, completely. Not everyone is either a medium armor dodge roll nerd or a heavy armor stam tank. I get it, you don't like those HA stam builds and feel weak against them. But your "solution" would make you invincible to all those HA magicka builds lacking gapclosers and or stuns/executes in the process. That's not balance, that's having an agenda and trying to bruteforce it without considering collateral damage.
What are these "invincible dodge roll builds" and where can I find one? I see a lot more unkillable tank builds than dodge rollers, and those tanks can escape just as quick as a medium armor build (without having to worry about snares/roots as much).
Yes, in the right circumstances dodge roll is very strong (and should have better counters to it!), but those situations are few and far between.
If you go into PvP as a medium armor build right now, I can almost guarantee the first thing you'll see are 2-3 Xv1 heroes spamming steel tornado at you and killing you within a few seconds as you try to do all the right things to survive (use LOS, sprint out of melee range, block etc etc). Then they tbag you afterwards, probably thinking they're good players.
That *** needs counters, and I'm not saying "make more skills undodgeable" - I'm saying give medium armor more mobility so that it can avoid being swarmed by spin2win spammers & make shuffle give more CC immunity so that not only heavy armor tanks can survive those encounters (while being just as fast as medium armor builds).
I use Steel Tornado on my own melee stamblade atm btw, and it's pretty much free kills on anyone else in medium armor if I start spinning first and aren't outnumbered too much.
That's what I'm saying: you are taking a very specific scenario (spin to win) you have a problem with (not questioning your complaint having merit) and propose a solution (buff to evasive capabilities and speed) - completely ignoring that a medium armor build (or HA with swift) can already outrun and/or dodge ALL of the damage other builds than your specific scenario can throw at you.
You're lacking oversight, you are not considering all variables - you are not interested in evaluating the entire picture. A medium armor build sitting on top of me can already outrun my biggest punch even when starting to run in a straight line 1 sec after I casted it. The situation is already totally absurd and you want to shift it even further in your favor? You are displaying a total lack of objectivity.
Edit: I'm not even doubting that your issue is legit. But the answer can't be to buff medium armor speed and dodge roll. The answer is to limit max speed of those HA stam builds. Otherwise you have lots of collateral damage in form of HA Mag setups being absolutely discriminated when fighting a medium armor user.Edited by Mojomonkeyman on August 18, 2018 8:37PMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Oh man, half of cyrodiil is roll dodging like theres no tomorrow. You are blind to that due to your bias. Dodge roll builds are almost invincible to a lot of range setups. Right now at the current state of the game.
You are, as always, cherrypicking the very few scenarios a dodge roll build has problems with and ignore that is only one half (if at all) of the coin. The other half can't ever dream of touching/finishing those builds already.
You lost it, completely. Not everyone is either a medium armor dodge roll nerd or a heavy armor stam tank. I get it, you don't like those HA stam builds and feel weak against them. But your "solution" would make you invincible to all those HA magicka builds lacking gapclosers and or stuns/executes in the process. That's not balance, that's having an agenda and trying to bruteforce it without considering collateral damage.
What are these "invincible dodge roll builds" and where can I find one? I see a lot more unkillable tank builds than dodge rollers, and those tanks can escape just as quick as a medium armor build (without having to worry about snares/roots as much).
Yes, in the right circumstances dodge roll is very strong (and should have better counters to it!), but those situations are few and far between.
If you go into PvP as a medium armor build right now, I can almost guarantee the first thing you'll see are 2-3 Xv1 heroes spamming steel tornado at you and killing you within a few seconds as you try to do all the right things to survive (use LOS, sprint out of melee range, block etc etc). Then they tbag you afterwards, probably thinking they're good players.
That *** needs counters, and I'm not saying "make more skills undodgeable" - I'm saying give medium armor more mobility so that it can avoid being swarmed by spin2win spammers & make shuffle give more CC immunity so that not only heavy armor tanks can survive those encounters (while being just as fast as medium armor builds).
I use Steel Tornado on my own melee stamblade atm btw, and it's pretty much free kills on anyone else in medium armor if I start spinning first and aren't outnumbered too much.
That's what I'm saying: you are taking a very specific scenario (spin to win) you have a problem with (not questioning your complaint having merit) and propose a solution (buff to evasive capabilities and speed) - completely ignoring that a medium armor build (or HA with swift) can already outrun and/or dodge ALL of the damage other builds than your specific scenario can throw at you.
You're lacking oversight, you are not considering all variables - you are not interested in evaluating the entire picture. A medium armor build sitting on top of me can already outrun my biggest punch even when starting to run in a straight line 1 sec after I casted it. The situation is already totally absurd and you want to shift it even further in your favor? You are displaying a total lack of objectivity.
That would be a topic for another thread. I don't see how buffing movement speed/shuffle would change anything if these builds already (as you put it) outrun/dodge damage from other builds (especially if you forgo the last suggestion to raise speed cap) - though tbh this is kind of the goal when it comes to medium armor survivability; being able to avoid damage.
I'm guessing you're talking about magicka warden (or magicka DK), rest of the classes have easy time with dodge rollers.
If I were ZOS I'd look at buffing Impulse from destruction staff - currently used by no one, it could be a skill that works similar to spin2win & bombard in an ideal world, for classes that lack such options in their class skill lines.Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Edit: I'm not even doubting that your issue is legit. But the answer can't be to buff medium armor speed and dodge roll. The answer is to limit max speed of those HA stam builds. Otherwise you have lots of collateral damage in form of HA Mag setups being absolutely discriminated when fighting a medium armor user.
Yes, but there also needs to be a way to outplay other medium armor users spamming spin2win (especially in Xv1), or a templar spamming jabs/sweeps at you (with swift jewelry & major expedition ofc) as you try to escape, constantly refreshing the 70% snare and making any escape impossible.Edited by DDuke on August 18, 2018 8:44PM0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Oh man, half of cyrodiil is roll dodging like theres no tomorrow. You are blind to that due to your bias. Dodge roll builds are almost invincible to a lot of range setups. Right now at the current state of the game.
You are, as always, cherrypicking the very few scenarios a dodge roll build has problems with and ignore that is only one half (if at all) of the coin. The other half can't ever dream of touching/finishing those builds already.
You lost it, completely. Not everyone is either a medium armor dodge roll nerd or a heavy armor stam tank. I get it, you don't like those HA stam builds and feel weak against them. But your "solution" would make you invincible to all those HA magicka builds lacking gapclosers and or stuns/executes in the process. That's not balance, that's having an agenda and trying to bruteforce it without considering collateral damage.
What are these "invincible dodge roll builds" and where can I find one? I see a lot more unkillable tank builds than dodge rollers, and those tanks can escape just as quick as a medium armor build (without having to worry about snares/roots as much).
Yes, in the right circumstances dodge roll is very strong (and should have better counters to it!), but those situations are few and far between.
If you go into PvP as a medium armor build right now, I can almost guarantee the first thing you'll see are 2-3 Xv1 heroes spamming steel tornado at you and killing you within a few seconds as you try to do all the right things to survive (use LOS, sprint out of melee range, block etc etc). Then they tbag you afterwards, probably thinking they're good players.
That *** needs counters, and I'm not saying "make more skills undodgeable" - I'm saying give medium armor more mobility so that it can avoid being swarmed by spin2win spammers & make shuffle give more CC immunity so that not only heavy armor tanks can survive those encounters (while being just as fast as medium armor builds).
I use Steel Tornado on my own melee stamblade atm btw, and it's pretty much free kills on anyone else in medium armor if I start spinning first and aren't outnumbered too much.
That's what I'm saying: you are taking a very specific scenario (spin to win) you have a problem with (not questioning your complaint having merit) and propose a solution (buff to evasive capabilities and speed) - completely ignoring that a medium armor build (or HA with swift) can already outrun and/or dodge ALL of the damage other builds than your specific scenario can throw at you.
You're lacking oversight, you are not considering all variables - you are not interested in evaluating the entire picture. A medium armor build sitting on top of me can already outrun my biggest punch even when starting to run in a straight line 1 sec after I casted it. The situation is already totally absurd and you want to shift it even further in your favor? You are displaying a total lack of objectivity.
That would be a topic for another thread. I don't see how buffing movement speed/shuffle would change anything if these builds already (as you put it) outrun/dodge damage from other builds - though tbh this is kind of the goal when it comes to medium armor survivability; being able to avoid damage.
I'm guessing you're talking about magicka warden (or magicka DK), rest of the classes have easy time with dodge rollers.
If I were ZOS I'd look at buffing Impulse from destruction staff - currently used by no one, it could be a skill that works similar to spin2win & bombard in an ideal world, for classes that lack such options in their class skill lines.
But we don't have that ideal world yet (and probably never will). Making an already difficult situation worse for one niche, just to improve it for another is not something I can agree to. You are smart enough to come up with solutions that don't have as many negative side effects.
Read my edit from last post. I'm not aiming to belittle your concern. It is your proposed solution that is a total no-go, because of factors you are not taking into account at all or not giving enough credit to.
I can give your advise back to you: Go to cyro as solo magwarden - you will perceive medium armor builds as insanely strong and omnipresent - cause they can toy with you all day long, sprinting, dodging into sunset whenever you want to apply pressure and theres literally nothing you can do to stop them.Edited by Mojomonkeyman on August 18, 2018 8:50PMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
SilverWF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Medium armor already has the biggest speed in the game, also they have good crit, cost reduction etc. Also I'm up for setting hard cap for max speed at +50% from normal unbuffed, coz Sonic the Super-Hedgehog is an another game.
Healing? Vigor is the best self heal in the game atm, even among magicka skills (if not count BoL)
That constant cry from medium baddies is getting really annoying.
- PC EU. Ebonheart Pact. CP 1k+
- YouTube: All ESO disguises (2014)
- EU players are humans too! We want our maintenances in the least pop time (at deep night) and not lasted for several hours!
- Animation canceR - is true PvP cancer! When you can't see which actions your opponent do - you can't react properly on them!
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Oh man, half of cyrodiil is roll dodging like theres no tomorrow. You are blind to that due to your bias. Dodge roll builds are almost invincible to a lot of range setups. Right now at the current state of the game.
You are, as always, cherrypicking the very few scenarios a dodge roll build has problems with and ignore that is only one half (if at all) of the coin. The other half can't ever dream of touching/finishing those builds already.
You lost it, completely. Not everyone is either a medium armor dodge roll nerd or a heavy armor stam tank. I get it, you don't like those HA stam builds and feel weak against them. But your "solution" would make you invincible to all those HA magicka builds lacking gapclosers and or stuns/executes in the process. That's not balance, that's having an agenda and trying to bruteforce it without considering collateral damage.
What are these "invincible dodge roll builds" and where can I find one? I see a lot more unkillable tank builds than dodge rollers, and those tanks can escape just as quick as a medium armor build (without having to worry about snares/roots as much).
Yes, in the right circumstances dodge roll is very strong (and should have better counters to it!), but those situations are few and far between.
If you go into PvP as a medium armor build right now, I can almost guarantee the first thing you'll see are 2-3 Xv1 heroes spamming steel tornado at you and killing you within a few seconds as you try to do all the right things to survive (use LOS, sprint out of melee range, block etc etc). Then they tbag you afterwards, probably thinking they're good players.
That *** needs counters, and I'm not saying "make more skills undodgeable" - I'm saying give medium armor more mobility so that it can avoid being swarmed by spin2win spammers & make shuffle give more CC immunity so that not only heavy armor tanks can survive those encounters (while being just as fast as medium armor builds).
I use Steel Tornado on my own melee stamblade atm btw, and it's pretty much free kills on anyone else in medium armor if I start spinning first and aren't outnumbered too much.
That's what I'm saying: you are taking a very specific scenario (spin to win) you have a problem with (not questioning your complaint having merit) and propose a solution (buff to evasive capabilities and speed) - completely ignoring that a medium armor build (or HA with swift) can already outrun and/or dodge ALL of the damage other builds than your specific scenario can throw at you.
You're lacking oversight, you are not considering all variables - you are not interested in evaluating the entire picture. A medium armor build sitting on top of me can already outrun my biggest punch even when starting to run in a straight line 1 sec after I casted it. The situation is already totally absurd and you want to shift it even further in your favor? You are displaying a total lack of objectivity.
That would be a topic for another thread. I don't see how buffing movement speed/shuffle would change anything if these builds already (as you put it) outrun/dodge damage from other builds - though tbh this is kind of the goal when it comes to medium armor survivability; being able to avoid damage.
I'm guessing you're talking about magicka warden (or magicka DK), rest of the classes have easy time with dodge rollers.
If I were ZOS I'd look at buffing Impulse from destruction staff - currently used by no one, it could be a skill that works similar to spin2win & bombard in an ideal world, for classes that lack such options in their class skill lines.
But we don't have that ideal world yet (and probably never will). Making an already difficult situation worse for one niche, just to improve it for another is not something I can agree to. You are smart enough to come up with solutions that don't have as many negative side effects.
Read my edit from last post. I'm not aiming to belittle your concern. It is your proposed solution that is a total no-go, because of factors you are not taking into account at all or not giving enough credit to.
I can give your advise back to you: Go to cyro as solo magwarden - you will perceive medium armor builds as insanely strong and omnipresent - cause they can toy with you all day long, sprinting, dodging into sunset whenever you want to apply pressure and theres literally nothing you can do to stop them.
Well yeah, magwarden is a bit of a meme right now... I honestly don't remember when I last died to one. Must've been back when those shalks used to stun (i.e. a while ago).
Needs a lot of work, especially vs dodge rollers (as their only undodgeable ability is shalks).Medium armor already has the biggest speed in the game, also they have good crit, cost reduction etc. Also I'm up for setting hard cap for max speed at +50% from normal unbuffed, coz Sonic the Super-Hedgehog is an another game.
Healing? Vigor is the best self heal in the game atm, even among magicka skills (if not count BoL)
That constant cry from medium baddies is getting really annoying.
Medium armor does not have the "biggest speed" in the game. A heavy armor build runs just as fast with 2x Swift jewelry & speed pots, being at speed cap just like medium (while also mitigating/healing more and having better snare/root immunity with Forward Momentum). A heavy armor build heals more with Vigor than a medium one (they have a passive for +8% healing).
Also, Power Lash from magicka DK (just for example) heals more than Vigor and twice as fast - Vigor is not as strong as you think it is (or I'd just outheal spin2win spam & sweeps/jabs like heavy armor builds do with their bigger heals/mitigation).
I think you've missed the entire purpose of my post. It isn't to say medium needs better mitigation or heals or damage (as it seems ZOS is thinking), but rather that it needs a unique competitive edge: mobility.
If I wanted those other things I'd just go play heavy.Edited by DDuke on August 18, 2018 9:21PM0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭[removed quote]
I'd like to see how you are able to kill a heavy armor build running around with speedcap or a shieldstacker with your magden (or actually any decent player on whatever build). Somehow it's fine that nobody can finish a "good" opponent (since years) unless it's a rollbased build.
There is no reason to slot medium armor and/or a bow, every class does better in heavy armor with speedpots and swift at this point. Even stamblade does worse in open world than it does on a proper heavy armor build, which is by far less vulnerable against CC + burst and against AoE damage in group fights.
Stop coming up with magden all the time, everybody agrees that the class needs help for solo open world in general, the class has no kill potential against anything. Other than that I don't see how magden is underperforming, in a group and in bgs it's pretty solid and we can probably agree that it's not the job of a magden to chase down and kill mobility builds which would justify a direct counter against them.
What I would suggest for medium armor: Nerfing speedpots (unpopular opinion... I know), nerfing Cloak and giving med armor and bow builds a bit more survivability (and a good spammable for classes which aren't nb or temp).Edited by ZOS_JesC on August 19, 2018 2:19PMI used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.1 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Medium armor already has the biggest speed in the game, also they have good crit, cost reduction etc. Also I'm up for setting hard cap for max speed at +50% from normal unbuffed, coz Sonic the Super-Hedgehog is an another game.
Healing? Vigor is the best self heal in the game atm, even among magicka skills (if not count BoL)
That constant cry from medium baddies is getting really annoying.
Well, @DDuke is no baddie. That's why I take his concern very serious and don't doubt it's legit, his posts are (biased or not) almost always worth a read. He has proven to be a very good player and top theory crafter for over 4+ years now. He just tends to have a very narrow (biased) view when it comes to the shortcomings of medium armor builds and probably doesn't identify enough with HA mag builds to even understand how strong medium armor can appear (if you are not a HA stam brawler, Magsorc or MagNB).Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy1 -
SilverWF✭✭✭✭✭
✭But (and I hope it's obvious) any biased point of view must be ignored.
There must be only independent PoVs only, like mine (but not ask me about Breton race, lul)
Is it harder to play as staminer than magicka? Yes. Even now, after all stam buffs.
But most of that "improvement" suggestions are just ridiculous and would completely broke (already broken) game.- PC EU. Ebonheart Pact. CP 1k+
- YouTube: All ESO disguises (2014)
- EU players are humans too! We want our maintenances in the least pop time (at deep night) and not lasted for several hours!
- Animation canceR - is true PvP cancer! When you can't see which actions your opponent do - you can't react properly on them!
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TBois✭✭✭✭✭
✭What if we got rid of all the evasion buffs and increased the immunity duration to 10s for shuffle?PC/NA
T-Bois (Stam Sorc since 1.4) - AD
An Unsettling Snowball (Templar) - AD
Bosquecito (Stam Sorc) - DC
Peti-T-Bois (Stamden) - AD0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Medium armor already has the biggest speed in the game, also they have good crit, cost reduction etc. Also I'm up for setting hard cap for max speed at +50% from normal unbuffed, coz Sonic the Super-Hedgehog is an another game.
Healing? Vigor is the best self heal in the game atm, even among magicka skills (if not count BoL)
That constant cry from medium baddies is getting really annoying.
Well, @DDuke is no baddie. That's why I take his concern very serious and don't doubt it's legit, his posts are (biased or not) almost always worth a read. He has proven to be a very good player and top theory crafter for over 4+ years now. He just tends to have a very narrow (biased) view when it comes to the shortcomings of medium armor builds and probably doesn't identify enough with HA mag builds to even understand how strong medium armor can appear (if you are not a HA stam brawler, Magsorc or MagNB).
Well, that's why it's good to hear from other points of view as well.
I don't play my own mag warden much, but I can see how more mobility based builds could pose a problem.
I think the thing that keeps these in check currently is the speed cap (only real problem is that it can be so easily reached by any build, including heavy/light armor ones), so in hindsight I don't think raising the speed cap is a good idea (atleast right now).
So with that in mind, if speed cap remains the same then things like changing Athletics passive would really just allow medium armor builds to run other jewelry traits for more dmg (or survivability with Protective) but everyone would still move at the same speed regardless of armor type. I don't think this is ideal either.
But I think we can all agree that Shuffle doesn't compare favourably with Forward Momentum at the moment? That is really the main thing that allows heavy armor builds be as mobile/more mobile than medium builds and fixing even just that wouldn't make mobility based builds more of a problem for mag wardens.
When it comes to mag wardens in general, I think ZOS missed a big opportunity when they made it impossible to use Nature's Grasp on the bear (used to be possible in Morrowind PTS). Reversing that change could help a lot.
I also think there's some potential in Frozen Device when it comes to preventing people from escaping (28m range on the skill, arms in 1,5s, invisible to opponent & big radius on it+decent tooltip damage) - though it still doesn't help you actually kill a dodge roller (since they can dodge almost everything mag warden throws at them).
I know this may sound hard to believe, but I also never was against undodgeable birds. I think they were balanced as a medium armor build could:- Cloak them (if NB).
- Tap block when they were about to land - it's one of the most telegraphed skills in the game.
...but yeah, those are gone now so they need some other gimmick to fight dodge rollers, as other classes have (apart from magblade).Edited by DDuke on August 18, 2018 9:48PM0 -
SilverWF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shuffle is not weapon skill, even mag builds can use it.
That's why it has greatly reduced buff time.
While Momentum is 2h skill, that can be used only with 2h. Well, said it like there is stam builds without 2h on one of the bars, lol.- PC EU. Ebonheart Pact. CP 1k+
- YouTube: All ESO disguises (2014)
- EU players are humans too! We want our maintenances in the least pop time (at deep night) and not lasted for several hours!
- Animation canceR - is true PvP cancer! When you can't see which actions your opponent do - you can't react properly on them!
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Shuffle is not weapon skill, even mag builds can use it.
That's why it has greatly reduced buff time.
While Momentum is 2h skill, that can be used only with 2h. Well, said it like there is stam builds without 2h on one of the bars, lol.
Shuffle is an armor skill that can only be used with 5 pieces of medium armor slotted. Do you run medium armor on your magicka builds?2 -
SilverWF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shuffle is not weapon skill, even mag builds can use it.
That's why it has greatly reduced buff time.
While Momentum is 2h skill, that can be used only with 2h. Well, said it like there is stam builds without 2h on one of the bars, lol.
Shuffle is an armor skill that can only be used with 5 pieces of medium armor slotted. Do you run medium armor on your magicka builds?
Lol, remember this skill since long ago, when it hasn't required this. Not using evasion skills at all, even on staminer...
Well, still it's more universal skill than Momemntum, right?- PC EU. Ebonheart Pact. CP 1k+
- YouTube: All ESO disguises (2014)
- EU players are humans too! We want our maintenances in the least pop time (at deep night) and not lasted for several hours!
- Animation canceR - is true PvP cancer! When you can't see which actions your opponent do - you can't react properly on them!
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