Adding an option to toggle veteran difficulty doesn't change anything for people who like things as it is. It doesn't affect them at all.

Adding a toggle and liking how it is shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

I truly don't understand the resistance to this idea.

Phage wrote: »

Adding an option to toggle veteran difficulty doesn't change anything for people who like things as it is. It doesn't affect them at all.

Adding a toggle and liking how it is shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

I truly don't understand the resistance to this idea.

I mean, this is basically how things worked for the old veteran rank system
Once you completed your faction the next faction would unlock at veteran difficulty.

Tannus15 wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

Adding an option to toggle veteran difficulty doesn't change anything for people who like things as it is. It doesn't affect them at all.

Adding a toggle and liking how it is shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

I truly don't understand the resistance to this idea.

I mean, this is basically how things worked for the old veteran rank system
Once you completed your faction the next faction would unlock at veteran difficulty.

Sort of. The system I made a thread on a while back was basically the same toggle used for trials and dungeons.

You flip the switch if you want veteran overland/quests, veteran delves, veteran public dungeons. If you don't, you just leave it on normal.

It makes no sense to me why anyone wouldn't be open to the game having more options. Especially when you still have the choice to keep things the same difficulty.

Phage wrote: »

Adding an option to toggle veteran difficulty doesn't change anything for people who like things as it is. It doesn't affect them at all.

Adding a toggle and liking how it is shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

I truly don't understand the resistance to this idea.

Exactly. Either people don't read it thoroughly, or they just do not understand the concept (maybe due to poor explanation or stupidity). Imo, the current difficulty should be kept as well. BUT, there is no sustainability or longevity for quests as it is currently implemented and, as such, my recommendation is to introduce an optional, vet/scaled up/challenging (whatever you'd like to call it) overland/questing option . Maybe with slightly better rewards (all needs to be discussed), but the point of this thread is to acknowledge that there is a big issue with the questing design in this game once you reach a certain level of skill (level 1 for some, level 50 for others). While it is true that it is impossible to cater to the level of player experience across all different types of players, compromising on different (binary or not) difficulties of overland based on stats is the very least that could be done about it ( again ALL OPTIONAL). There is no need for new players to get afraid, it's something they could welcome later on in the game when they look for something to do (because honestly, running the same dungeons and trials is just mind-numbly boring)

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Franieck wrote: »

damage of overland mobs by a factor of 10-20 so that tanks can tell you how easy overland content is while mobs 1-shot you. (sarcasm in case it wasn't obvious)

Not everyone plays with your setup, and questing should be accessible to everyone playing the game.

sure, and again, that is why i added the option of introducing a normal (stay as current is) and vet overland (additionally for those who want to). You could choose whatever you wish without changing anything. You could keep playing the current setup if you wanted to. So I don't really get your point?

If the rewards stay the same, whatever. But already in this thread people are asking for better rewards for doing the vet version. And if that happens, we have a vMA situation where people are punished for making builds that people cry about a lack of (tanks).

I can see your point, but imo the discussion is still too much on its alpha stages to even warrant a talk about this. The first point is to recognize the problem. After that, extra rewards or no rewards can be talked about. Just regarding potential rewards, there is a LOT of discussion that is needed to truly see what is viable or not. What does better rewards mean ( cosmetics? items sets? mats? tempers?) how much should it be rewarded (it obviously has to be fair)?. All of that are part of the discussion (albeit at a more advanced stage of it). However, the first step imo is to acknowledge how bad overland feels for the players (for some not at all, for others like me it;s game breaking), and then, and only then, if a majority voices concerns about it, we can further develop the conversation into that stage.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Franieck wrote: »

damage of overland mobs by a factor of 10-20 so that tanks can tell you how easy overland content is while mobs 1-shot you. (sarcasm in case it wasn't obvious)

Not everyone plays with your setup, and questing should be accessible to everyone playing the game.

sure, and again, that is why i added the option of introducing a normal (stay as current is) and vet overland (additionally for those who want to). You could choose whatever you wish without changing anything. You could keep playing the current setup if you wanted to. So I don't really get your point?

If the rewards stay the same, whatever. But already in this thread people are asking for better rewards for doing the vet version. And if that happens, we have a vMA situation where people are punished for making builds that people cry about a lack of (tanks).

rewards can stay the same as in, no unique rewards from vet difficulty just... slightly better. like... double the gold from quest rewards, better chance for purple world drop set items. small things like that. creates an added incentive, without excluding players who would rather stay on normal difficulty. and I say that as someone who will absolutely stay on normal difficulty.

as for fixing disparity between tank/healer and dps experience.. honestly, what I personaly would have liked is being able to have morph presets that you could switch between, on a fly without having to go to a shrine. I don't even mind paying for re-morphing at this point, especially since we no longer have to redo every... single... morph... but it would certainly help, so that you could play your chose spec in group content, and still quest nicely solo.
P.S. they really need to add functionality of gear/bar swap addons to base game. its NOT cheating to be able to save skill/gear set presets instead of having to redo them one skill/gear piece at a time. its baseline functionality in multiple MMO's at this point.

Franieck wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Franieck wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Franieck wrote: »

damage of overland mobs by a factor of 10-20 so that tanks can tell you how easy overland content is while mobs 1-shot you. (sarcasm in case it wasn't obvious)

Not everyone plays with your setup, and questing should be accessible to everyone playing the game.

sure, and again, that is why i added the option of introducing a normal (stay as current is) and vet overland (additionally for those who want to). You could choose whatever you wish without changing anything. You could keep playing the current setup if you wanted to. So I don't really get your point?

If the rewards stay the same, whatever. But already in this thread people are asking for better rewards for doing the vet version. And if that happens, we have a vMA situation where people are punished for making builds that people cry about a lack of (tanks).

I can see your point, but imo the discussion is still too much on its alpha stages to even warrant a talk about this. The first point is to recognize the problem. After that, extra rewards or no rewards can be talked about. Just regarding potential rewards, there is a LOT of discussion that is needed to truly see what is viable or not. What does better rewards mean ( cosmetics? items sets? mats? tempers?) how much should it be rewarded (it obviously has to be fair)?. All of that are part of the discussion (albeit at a more advanced stage of it). However, the first step imo is to acknowledge how bad overland feels for the players (for some not at all, for others like me it;s game breaking), and then, and only then, if a majority voices concerns about it, we can further develop the conversation into that stage.

Well, if you make not just "vet" versions, but versions that fit your role in the trinity and all of those awarded the same things and were as quick to complete as each other on the respective roles (significantly more NPC HP but low damage for DDs, significantly more damage but low HP for tanks and something in the middle in both regards for healers), it's ok. But if there are going to be ANY extra rewards AT ALL for something that is much more difficult (or even impossible) to complete with one sensible setup than with another, it is already unfair, even if the reward is as meaningless as an NPC telling you that you're awesome.

Again, OK, point taken. However, we have not even touched the "difficulty level discussion". There are many concepts and notions on what "difficulty means". It could be as simple as straight up buffing enemies health to introducing new mechanics or giving them more damage. ALL of that, has to be discussed and the community should be involved in that to steer it towards the best direction. But AGAIN, however, this thread's purpose is to identify whether this should be a discussion to be further developed, given thought about and lead to actionable pragmatic suggestions on how to achieve a pleasant questing experience for nearly everybody.

EDIT: so this is your opportunity to voice any dissatisfaction you have with overland and questing (if at all) and your concerns about it (for example, if it were to change, what would you hate to be changed? why? what would you like to change?). The more insight we get into it, the more ZoS can potentially come up with a viable solution for the majority.

I know you were replying to someone else, but personaly and I'm pretty sure many would agree with me. baseline difficulty should stay as it is. NO changes. the only discussion in my opinion should revolve around how to handle optional vet difficulty (or whatever we may want to call it)

idk wrote: »

Franieck wrote: »

idk wrote: »

It’s not going to happen in any meaningful manner.

Zos won’t create a choice of normal or get overland. It would essentially double the instances and infrastructure needs. Increased costs without any return isn’t a good decision.

Zos already created more challenging content from normal sndnvet dungeons to normal and get trials not to mention the arenas.

If you want more challenging content do the more challenging content.

Except we are not really asking for challenging content itself. We’re asking for quests to be made enjoyable after reaching level 40-50. And for that, a little more challenge is needed.

And with this comment you are mostly wrong.

Besides the clear FACT that t here will not be agreement on what you just said, what is "enjoyable" to you is a cake walk to someone else and impossible to others.

The post of mine you quoted was not arguing anything here, but stating the facts to why this will not happen. Not an opinion on wanting or not wanting change.

The problem is that you mixed things a tad here and missed out on the purpose of the thread (i refer to you dubbing it down to it being a post about requesting more challenging content). "Enjoyable" is highly subjective, with that I can agree. However, statistically, research on positive reinforcement (specifically on games) shows that, enjoyment comes from challenge and a sense of overcoming challenges. What do you think will happen once players burn through that "learning curve"?
The fate of any MMORPG is that, at some point, influx of new players keeps decreasing and the majority of the paying customer base you are left with are already existing players who stick to the game. With that said, imagine when we get to that point where a significant portion of paying customers obliterate overland (a ridiculously easy feat to accomplish) and think of it as a complete and utter waste of time (like almost any player 100+ CP feels like). ZoS is gonna start running into problems. How much do you think they spend on those awesome quests (with play writing, voice acting, etc.) ? how many players do you think actually get to enjoy it (due to their level or game proficiency?) That is the question at stake here. I, for one, stopped questing because it feels ridiculous Moreover, to your suggestion (which was beside the point) on turning to dungeons and trials: that is incredibly boring! It is obnoxiously repetitive and is very unlikely to sustainably retain paying customers giving the update schedules ZoS employs. While I can understand some points that you make, I feel to see any facts in your argumentation...

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Franieck wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Franieck wrote: »

damage of overland mobs by a factor of 10-20 so that tanks can tell you how easy overland content is while mobs 1-shot you. (sarcasm in case it wasn't obvious)

Not everyone plays with your setup, and questing should be accessible to everyone playing the game.

sure, and again, that is why i added the option of introducing a normal (stay as current is) and vet overland (additionally for those who want to). You could choose whatever you wish without changing anything. You could keep playing the current setup if you wanted to. So I don't really get your point?

If the rewards stay the same, whatever. But already in this thread people are asking for better rewards for doing the vet version. And if that happens, we have a vMA situation where people are punished for making builds that people cry about a lack of (tanks).

I can see your point, but imo the discussion is still too much on its alpha stages to even warrant a talk about this. The first point is to recognize the problem. After that, extra rewards or no rewards can be talked about. Just regarding potential rewards, there is a LOT of discussion that is needed to truly see what is viable or not. What does better rewards mean ( cosmetics? items sets? mats? tempers?) how much should it be rewarded (it obviously has to be fair)?. All of that are part of the discussion (albeit at a more advanced stage of it). However, the first step imo is to acknowledge how bad overland feels for the players (for some not at all, for others like me it;s game breaking), and then, and only then, if a majority voices concerns about it, we can further develop the conversation into that stage.

Well, if you make not just "vet" versions, but versions that fit your role in the trinity and all of those awarded the same things and were as quick to complete as each other on the respective roles (significantly more NPC HP but low damage for DDs, significantly more damage but low HP for tanks and something in the middle in both regards for healers), it's ok. But if there are going to be ANY extra rewards AT ALL for something that is much more difficult (or even impossible) to complete with one sensible setup than with another, it is already unfair, even if the reward is as meaningless as an NPC telling you that you're awesome.

I think you have it backwards. Under the current system a tank is wholly uneeded for questing, agree? If suddenly there is a mode people can't do so easily alone, support roles become worth their weight in gold to most players who want them phat rewards (gold jewels, special titles etc).

Doesn't hurt tanks to have more damage to soak, imho

The game content is either too easy or too hard. Easy content should be buffed to be a bit harder and and/or a third middle difficult should be introduced.

Aesthier wrote: »

Simplest Fix:

Implement a hardcore character mode at the character select screen which enabled veterans to create a toon that would suffer a permanent debuff that reduces "all" stats by a certain percentage on that specific character.

They could still play with their friends while enjoying the increased difficulty of "all" content.

This makes much more sense than creating new servers or implementing some type of toggle for players which lends itself to more breakage.

Hell ZoS could even implement new titles for those who complete certain content using said toons.

Just a simple lifetime debuff that is applied to the character on creation.

unfortunately, this will not work. why? for the same reason people keep buying skyreach carries to level. so you create a debuffed character. and group up with buffed characters. and now you are just someone who is being carried, rather then experiencing personal challenge. so don't group up,you say? most of the quest content is uninstalled. which means.. if there are other players around and there tend to be other players around a fair bit nowadays? you just got all things killed for you quickly and without challenge. last but not least - this doesn't solve the issue of people wanting to play their existing characters in new story content and not feeling like they are god moding through it. (or that there are people who already have their character slots maxed out. rolling a new character is anything BUT a fix. it was bad enough that we had to, to get storage chests and couple of outfit styles that were not retroactive)