Glad deathmatch Sigil is gone, but it has some implications

Left4Daud · August 2018

So I played my first deathmatch without the power Sigil, and for the most part I think it’s a great change.

However I noticed that without the Sigil, there is literally no reason for a dominant team to NOT spawn camp a weaker team.

I solo qued and got put with a partial pre-made in voice comms. I didn’t join their discord, but I did stick very close to them throughout the match.

After moving through the middle of the Arcane University, and winning the initial skirmish there, we wound up at the green teams spawn.

The match started when the greens only had 3 players and for the entire match we swirled around their spawn, picking them off as they jumped.

Occasionally the reds would come and distract us and pull us off for a bit, but as soon as we sent the reds back to their respawn, the greens again were easy pickings.

I really don’t miss eating power Sigil boosted Dawnbreakers, but the Sigil objective would have stopped this spawn camping massacre from getting so bad.

First, either my team would have moved off the green spawn to get the Sigil, giving them an appropriate chance to mobilize,

Or,

The red team could have picked it up and sent us packing while we were camping the greens.

Also for the record I feel horrible about the spawn camping but I was just following the pre-made, and I wanted to secure a win for my daily to potentially get one of the new outfit style pages.

So again, I don’t miss the Sigil, but without it, or something like it, there is no reason for a dominant team NOT to spawn trap another.

What do you think? How have your deathmatches gone without the Sigil?

BigBadVolk · August 2018

In short: Ye its generally enforces one team to camp spawn or in my case in Arcane Uni one team camped the upper site and sniped from there while we got slaugthered by the other team downstairs, its nice that its not there but something have to be done to camping before its spreads

BNOC · August 2018

This is an issue tied to the appalling matchmaking that's in place, nothing to do with the sigil.

The sigil was just a free win pass and like you suggested, chances are the spawntrapping team would have got it anyway, nothing would have changed.

This needed to be removed - Now, if matches were balanced properly, the greens may have got out of their base.

Mojomonkeyman · August 2018

Left4Daud wrote: »

So I played my first deathmatch without the power Sigil, and for the most part I think it’s a great change.

However I noticed that without the Sigil, there is literally no reason for a dominant team to NOT spawn camp a weaker team.

I solo qued and got put with a partial pre-made in voice comms. I didn’t join their discord, but I did stick very close to them throughout the match.

After moving through the middle of the Arcane University, and winning the initial skirmish there, we wound up at the green teams spawn.

The match started when the greens only had 3 players and for the entire match we swirled around their spawn, picking them off as they jumped.

Occasionally the reds would come and distract us and pull us off for a bit, but as soon as we sent the reds back to their respawn, the greens again were easy pickings.

I really don’t miss eating power Sigil boosted Dawnbreakers, but the Sigil objective would have stopped this spawn camping massacre from getting so bad.

First, either my team would have moved off the green spawn to get the Sigil, giving them an appropriate chance to mobilize,

Or,

The red team could have picked it up and sent us packing while we were camping the greens.

Also for the record I feel horrible about the spawn camping but I was just following the pre-made, and I wanted to secure a win for my daily to potentially get one of the new outfit style pages.

So again, I don’t miss the Sigil, but without it, or something like it, there is no reason for a dominant team NOT to spawn trap another.

What do you think? How have your deathmatches gone without the Sigil?

I'm not opposed to your thoughts, but wouldn't your scenario (your team backing off spawn to get sigil) just mean that you would massacre that green team even harder after those poor guys "mobilized". You might not have been spawn camping for so long but the end result wouldn't have changed. So, more of a psychological issue but a gamechanging one?!

Left4Daud · August 2018

I hear ya, and I’ll say it again I’m glad the Sigil is gone.

Obviously the objective in deathmatch is to get kills and the Sigil was stupid broken.

All I’m saying is maybe there could be more of an incentive to stay moving and not spawn trap, or camp in one spot on the map. Maybe something as simple as an objective that spawns that gives the player(s) that touch it a small AP reward at the end of the match.

Something like that, IDK I’m just throwing out ideas.

BNOC · August 2018

Left4Daud wrote: »

I hear ya, and I’ll say it again I’m glad the Sigil is gone.

Obviously the objective in deathmatch is to get kills and the Sigil was stupid broken.

All I’m saying is maybe there could be more of an incentive to stay moving and not spawn trap, or camp in one spot on the map. Maybe something as simple as an objective that spawns that gives the player(s) that touch it a small AP reward at the end of the match.

Something like that, IDK I’m just throwing out ideas.

Spawn trapping happens in almost all Deathmatch style games when one team is just too far ahead of another.

A way to neuter this a little is to have different exits to the spawn - Rather than just jumping down right into trouble, what if there were left and right exits on spawns that took you out, off at the side. Something like that is the easiest thing I can think of.

As soon as the strong team gets wind of what's happening though, it doesn't change much, just drags the match out longer with the same result.

EDIT: Used this pic from google but you get the gist - The red line is the normal spawn and drop, orange goes down to where the sigils spawn and comes out under the decking area and the yellow goes along the top and could come out of a rock face off to the side for example

Beardimus · August 2018

Personally I think it added something to DM. It wasn't right / perfect but it added a dimension, a tactic.

It need toning down sure but I think some kind of spice in DM is needed.

I get why people hate it tho.

I wondered if a rotation of vMA sigils or similar would be better.

jaws343 · August 2018

I think camping is going to happen regardless when one team is dominating. And I think that is fine when it is away from the spawn points. What they could do is give the spawning team the sigil power while they are still up in their spawn point. This gives them a bit of extra strength to push out against a spawn camping team and the moment they jump down they lose the power. It would encourage teams to play the map and it would give teams who are being spawn camped a chance to regroup.

This would only work for deathmatch though. Since CTF would just see snipers camping in their spawn for the extra damage.

Vapirko · August 2018

Here’s an idea, don’t be a *** and camp spawn points.

Lexxypwns · August 2018

If your team is that dominant then the smart play is to keep camping green, let red get Sigil then kite them up the stairs/through one of the doorways by green spawn, pop a defensive ult then bomb them in the choke.

The sigil literally shouldn’t change anything in this particular example as your group was obviously so superior that they didn’t need the sigil and had no fear of some baddies getting it.

TheMythicDawn · August 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

Here’s an idea, don’t be a *** and camp spawn points.

how do you enforce honor

Lexxypwns · August 2018

ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Here’s an idea, don’t be a *** and camp spawn points.

how do you enforce honor

It’s not a question of honor.

Many teams will not allow you to push fights with them without spawn camping, even in Deathmatch. Doing what the game requires of you to win isn’t dishonorable.

How is it in any way better sportsmanship to let somebody kite around senselessly when your team is just going to stomp them anyway? Dragging out a match where there’s clearly no adequate competition is bad sportsmanship. Spawn camping is simply the most efficient way to quickly end these matches and arguably the nicer thing to do.

As @BNOC said, this is an MMR issue and not a gameplay issue.

TheMythicDawn · August 2018

if camping another team spawn and choking them out is the optimal strategy for winning deathmatch then it is very much a gameplay issue

code65536 · August 2018

Don't think the sigil would've changed much.

If green was smart, they'd wait for everyone to respawn instead of jumping down piecemeal. And they'd wait for red to attack you before jumping down, so that they sandwich you in.

The camping worked not because of the lack of sigils, but because the match was unbalanced and the other teams were not coordinated/experienced enough to deal with camping. With groups like that, the sigil pulling you away would've changed things only temporarily.

Lexxypwns · August 2018

ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »

if camping another team spawn and choking them out is the optimal strategy for winning deathmatch then it is very much a gameplay issue

@ChrisToTheCanvas did you read what I said or just skim?

It’s the optimal strategy for winning when matched with teams that aren’t able to beat you.

Against similarly skilled teams spawn camping is going to get you wrecked, you can’t sit at one teams spawn and allow both teams to engage you when they choose and consistently win.

It’s clearly a matchmaking issue because this tactic is only viable when teams are completely incapable of winning.

React · August 2018

Sigil destroyed the flow of combat. It's about time that it was removed. I personally would have been okay with it spawning in the middle every time, so that it had a similar function to an overshield or active camo in halo, where both teams know exactly when and where it spawns so they can time and contest that location. Removal altogether is fine too, though.

As for the spawn camping thing; hate the game, not the players. Spawn camping the weaker of two teams is by far the best tactic to winning a TDM, as it allows you to control your competitor's positioning on the map and thus force fights into favorable locations for your own team.

The only solution I see to the spawn trap thing is this; remove MMR entirely, back to pre summerset matchmaking. However, split the battlegrounds ques into two separate categories: 1-2 person ques, and 3-4 person ques. This will prevent premades from stomping groups of solos or duos, and will turn the group que into an actual competitive que. High level players who enjoy outnumbered combat can que as 3, intentionally gimping themselves a player for a more challenging game. Players that want to go in as a group of four can do so, and will be forced to compete with other four stacks.

Then again, zos is doing everything they can do cater to the more casual players and remove the skill gap from pvp. They'd never make a change like that, so enjoy getting out into horribly unbalanced games for the foreseeable future

TheMythicDawn · August 2018

@Lexxypwns

ok i see what you are saying. but in the scenario you describe where spawn camping is a viable tactic against poorly matched teams, its still lame imo. i guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on that.

you said "Spawn camping is simply the most efficient way to quickly end these matches and arguably the nicer thing to do."

yea, I would argue otherwise. i would rather run around and get rolled by the dominant team in the middle of the map, than as soon as I jump down from spawn. maybe on the way I can get a 1v1 with a straggler from the OTHER team. something I wouldn't be able to find in your scenario

alrights its a matchmaking thing, so what in your opinion could be done to improve that experience? do you think removing the sigil is good for the health of deathmatch games?

Left4Daud · August 2018

Liam12548 wrote: »

The only solution I see to the spawn trap thing is this; remove MMR entirely, back to pre summerset matchmaking. However, split the battlegrounds ques into two separate categories: 1-2 person ques, and 3-4 person ques. This will prevent premades from stomping groups of solos or duos, and will turn the group que into an actual competitive que. High level players who enjoy outnumbered combat can que as 3, intentionally gimping themselves a player for a more challenging game. Players that want to go in as a group of four can do so, and will be forced to compete with other four stacks.

Then again, zos is doing everything they can do cater to the more casual players and remove the skill gap from pvp. They'd never make a change like that, so enjoy getting out into horribly unbalanced games for the foreseeable future

I could get behind this.

Vapirko · August 2018

@Lexxypwns that’s not really true. I’ve fought teams that spawn camped for a while and eventually got pushed out and trying to drop into their AOE mess and fight my way out is a much harder and different experience than meeting them in the open where they’re much more likely to be engaged by the third team as well, where you have more options for evasion and LOS as well as getting to choose how and when you engage them. It’s much, much easier to crush people by spawn camping. Plus if you’re choosing to spawn camp a certain team that are obviously worse than your team you’re also making it very hard for them to place second which is still valuable in terms of BGs rewards. If your team is the pre-made group spawn camping then maybe from your point of view there’s no point in drawing out the match, but it’s definitelt a *** move and a seriously elitist point of view. This is why 4 person groups should be relegated to their own separate queue. Ive also been involved in fights at a spawn point many times as the battle often makes its way there, but my team has always moved away if we feel like that team has no chance of breaking out. It’s just a courtesy to keep the game fun for everyone. If I know a team is made up of worse or inexperienced players I’m not gonna make life harder for them (unless maybe they’re a bunch of proc set snipe spammers). I want them to have a fair shot at fighting. But that’s not just me.

laissezfaire · August 2018

Beardimus wrote: »

Personally I think it added something to DM. It wasn't right / perfect but it added a dimension, a tactic.

It need toning down sure but I think some kind of spice in DM is needed.

I get why people hate it tho.

I wondered if a rotation of vMA sigils or similar would be better.

I like the idea of a random vMA sigil

Lexxypwns · August 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

@Lexxypwns that’s not really true. I’ve fought teams that spawn camped for a while and eventually got pushed out and trying to drop into their AOE mess and fight my way out is a much harder and different experience than meeting them in the open where they’re much more likely to be engaged by the third team as well, where you have more options for evasion and LOS as well as getting to choose how and when you engage them. It’s much, much easier to crush people by spawn camping. Plus if you’re choosing to spawn camp a certain team that are obviously worse than your team you’re also making it very hard for them to place second which is still valuable in terms of BGs rewards. If your team is the pre-made group spawn camping then maybe from your point of view there’s no point in drawing out the match, but it’s definitelt a *** move and a seriously elitist point of view. This is why 4 person groups should be relegated to their own separate queue. Ive also been involved in fights at a spawn point many times as the battle often makes its way there, but my team has always moved away if we feel like that team has no chance of breaking out. It’s just a courtesy to keep the game fun for everyone. If I know a team is made up of worse or inexperienced players I’m not gonna make life harder for them (unless maybe they’re a bunch of proc set snipe spammers). I want them to have a fair shot at fighting. But that’s not just me.

You’re saying you disagree with me but you’re just echoing my point.

Because you think kiting around a group that’s superior to yours and cherry picking kills from individuals worse than you is fun doesn’t mean the pre-made agrees. If I’m in a full 4 man I want to fight other full 4 mans so expediting the matches that are just one sided stomps is in my best interest but also in the best interest of players who fall in a lower skill tier that cannot get kills working around an opposing group that is stomping.

Not spawn camping only makes the match more enjoyable for 1 specific sunset, good players who are matched against good group(s). In return it draws out the match which isn’t fun for the good groups or the players who can’t get kills while avoiding said group.

ChunkyCat · August 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

Here’s an idea, don’t be a *** and camp spawn points.

Pretty much.

When I see this happening with my group, and my group is the one camping a spawn point, I usually run off to find the other team’s stragglers.

That’s when you start seeing those annoying group messages “stop wandering off!”

Heh.

The_Brosteen · August 2018

ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Here’s an idea, don’t be a *** and camp spawn points.

how do you enforce honor

There is no honor in pvp in this game. At least on pc. Seriously, pick a pvper to watch and if you stay in the stream long enough its likely you'll hear complaints of getting zerged or xv1'd and then youll see them do the same thing and get all excited about decimating someone they outnumber.

Just kinda how pvp is in this game.

del9 · August 2018

I also liked the idea of having other types of sigils. In deathmatch they could be ok, but they could really improve some of the run-away gametypes like CTR or Domination. Speed sigil would be a PvFlagger favorite, and defensive or healing sigil while tanking two teams on a cap point would be fun.

Karm1cOne · August 2018

Have it give free medals or extra ap, an incentive to move. Or else add traps at spawn points like in the dwemer map with a lever in the spawn to clear spawn campers.

Grimlok_S · August 2018

I like the trap idea lol

Another would be to reintroduce the sigil, but only have it spawn on the losing teams spawn if they are trailing by x amount of points.

crazy_catman21 · August 2018

Don’t die & you won’t be stuck in your spawn

WrathOfInnos · August 2018

If a team is getting spawn camped/farmed, the sigil should spawn in their base, giving them a chance to push out against better teams.