NOW that its over ....

Animus-ESO · August 2018

I don't know how much easier zos could make it for players who outnumber smaller groups. This is getting ridiculous that people still complain when they get killed by a smaller group. Let's say the average player has 25k HP and there's two of them versus 12. The average light attack since the buff last patch is roughly 1.5 k to 2K. A 1.5 K light attack from 12 players would be 18K damage. If they use a skill let's say that does 3K on the same player that would be 36 thousand damage to a single player. Are you trying to tell me that you can't kill a single player putting out 54 thousand damage single Target as a group?

Moonsorrow · August 2018

It was most likely just couple good pvp players with Imperial Physique + sustain sets (like Lich) syncing damage+ulties on you, easy AP farm against not really coordinated groups like that. With the alliance war passive they also gain ulti up so fast because you feed it to them so they just can keep killing you even more efficiently.

Fact is.. 2 good pvpers can be way more harder enemy to a 12 people pve raid than an actual boss at a vet Trial.

Instead of telling how they cheat or how badly balanced the game is, maybe just take your time to learn things first?

I was once in a guild where 1 of the pve raid leaders kept blaming all enemies for cheating this and cheating that when we went to IC or Cyrodiil. As an experienced pvp player i tried to explain him what happened and even what sets/skills they used and how they did what they did (mechanics behind it) but he did not listen, was like "gonna report them..". I left that guild.

One cannot explain simple game mechanics to those who dont even wanna learn, but rather blame all on either cheating or things being unbalanced.

There really is not cheating now, yeah some cheesy things can be as some proc combos are, but thats not cheating and those you can always rock, paper, scissors counterplay if want to hunt a specific target that annoys you. But as a first tip i would recommend playing pvp solo (dont get lazy on zerg surfing - it teaches nothing) and testing stuff.. when time goes long enough, you will know things and laugh at your old beliefs about people cheating when someone sends YOU whisper that you cheated.. when all you have done is played long enough to be competitive.

After long enough of time, you notice the good players from the way they move and react to what happens around them. Even if they are on some new character with low rank, you can see their fast reflex on combat, no hesitation, LoS so that it is like a smooth pattern from A to B, never stopping, always a purpose on doing things. So if you see them running away and your 12 people pve group follows them to a tight stairway, be ready to eat Dawnbreakers to face or other big burst combo+ulti there to burst many down at once. Its not cheating, its playing smart.

EDIT: Only cheating going is the invisible postern door wall thingys on Cyrodiil where enemies can just walk through even its at 100%. And thats because of a bug. Cannot understand why its not fixed yet, been happening for months. ZOS pls fix, pretty please?

Crown · August 2018

As one of the small group (normally 3-4) players that takes on 10-15 regularly, we usually:

Are all stamina builds, sometimes 1 magPlar.
Are using sets of imperial physique (in IC) or a sustain set (in Cyrodiil), impregnable, and blood spawn (unless there's a mag templar in earthgore).
Know that our individual damage is low, survivability is high, and need to coordinate our damage (and especially ults) to get kills.
Consistently keep hots on each other, so figure between 4-8k heals per second on everyone.
Use lingering health potions to keep our healing up.
Use immovable potions ALL THE TIME (you wouldn't believe how much we spend on pots).
Have our champion points set to reduce cost of breaking free and roll dodging.
Have good coordination in voice comms, so can hit multiple targets with a dawnbreaker at the same time.
Have good timing, so can get our shalks (warden) or proxy (magplar) to hit at the same time as dawnbreakers.
Have good awareness, so move out of opponent area ults.
Call out when low on resources, so we can reposition and regen as needed.
Make good use of the purify synergy (if magPlar in group) to get the 20+ debuffs and DoTs off.
Make good use of skills that remove snares - at least one if not two players with retreating.
Have someone (usually magPlar) who can tank all opponents for about 6-10 seconds while everyone else gets away, and who can usually then get away afterwards (S&B ulti + mist form, then immovable pot) or take one for the team if need be.

Considering the above, is there any doubt that 3-4 players can take on many times their numbers if their opponents are not perfectly coordinated?

Players don't often realize that the builds they use for raid or even solo (in most circumstances) don't work in a small group. If you have less than 8 (arbitrary number that seems reasonable) in group, everyone has to ensure that they cover multiple responsibilities. They have to have their own heals, get out of snares and cc, provide heals or buffs to support allies, and be able to coordinate their damage.

On the other side of the fence, I've been solo or in small groups and seen players like the above. Know what I do most of the time? I move off and don't bother fighting them. It's not worth the time and frustration to fight each other (unless you're really bored). Knowing that they'll play as I do (per above), it's not going to be easy kills/AP.

Alternatively, separate them and single target (or just destro the heck out of the one you can isolate). Get a DK to spam chains on one, and as soon as that one is pulled out, EVERYONE focus damage. If you have 6 players all hit at the exact same time, unless the opponent is rolling, death is very likely.

mursie · August 2018

it's a l2p issue. if you truly understood pvp in this game, you would easily be able to review your combat log at some point in the fights and come here with a much more detailed analysis of what it was the two players in question were doing to you.

Was one of them EMP of the campaign?
Were they using vicious death?
did they have imperial physique on?

As for not being CC'able - 3 infused jewels with potion reduction gives 21 second cooldown on immovable pots. Immovable pots can offer 10 seconds of cc immunity. that means 10 out of every 20 seconds... the player can't be CC'd. and yes - people run this build. did i mention those same immovable pots grant 47 seconds of major expedition speed?

take a moment and look at what truly killed your groups. if you're clumped dieing to a vicious death / imperial physique / EMP - it makes all the sense in the world. if you're clumped dieing to a tether bomb or a dawn breaker - again - makes sense.

bring some actual information to the forums before you post nonsense. otherwise, it's just that.

tldr: this is without question - a L2P issue.

Crown · August 2018

mursie wrote: »

As for not being CC'able - 3 infused jewels with potion reduction gives 21 second cooldown on immovable pots.

@mursie Then you have to give up your 3 harmony jewelry that give you a 15-20k hit on most damage synergies! I've seen 3 DKs just synergize each others' Talons and wipe raids!

Waffennacht · August 2018

Crown wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

As for not being CC'able - 3 infused jewels with potion reduction gives 21 second cooldown on immovable pots.

@mursie Then you have to give up your 3 harmony jewelry that give you a 15-20k hit on most damage synergies! I've seen 3 DKs just synergize each others' Talons and wipe raids!

@Crown absolutely wonderful bits to read. Thanks for your contribution!

inkorporated · August 2018

when skilled 1vx'ers decide to run duo or 3's its not a pretty site. they will use classes that compliment each other cross heal time CC ulti's and burst's on single targets. alot of it is based on LOS making u chase them running u out or resources building ulti then dropping dawnbreakers same time. only thing u can do is keep healed up resources up buffs up and try to target 1 at a time and burst cc ulti dump on them. you should know your limitations and those of your group no shame in it IMO if you can't beat them or already ran into them and couldn't beat them the best thing is to avoid them all together if possible.

Thogard · August 2018

I think every serious PvPer knows that if you want to get some epic 2v12 clips, the raids or groups in IC are by far the easiest to farm.

PvE players on a field trip.

Gilvoth · August 2018

just make it so that when these events start they cannot enter existing campaigns.
they should never have been allowed to join us in our campaigns.

Gilvoth · August 2018

i saw a conversation in zone said the following:

(player 1) "i cant wait till this stupid event is over so we can return to normal pvp"

(player 2) "DONT WORY, WE HATE YOU TO!"

that type of communication dominated the past 2 weeks and i hated the ques, i hated that lagg and i hated the whole experience, i hope it never happens again.

Thogard · August 2018

Mid year mayhem is the best week for PvP all year. This year’s was very smooth compared to last year’s.

mattaeus01b16_ESO · August 2018

Crown wrote: »

As one of the small group (normally 3-4) players that takes on 10-15 regularly, we usually:
Are all stamina builds, sometimes 1 magPlar.

Are using sets of imperial physique (in IC) or a sustain set (in Cyrodiil), impregnable, and blood spawn (unless there's a mag templar in earthgore).

Know that our individual damage is low, survivability is high, and need to coordinate our damage (and especially ults) to get kills.

Consistently keep hots on each other, so figure between 4-8k heals per second on everyone.

Use lingering health potions to keep our healing up.

Use immovable potions ALL THE TIME (you wouldn't believe how much we spend on pots).

Have our champion points set to reduce cost of breaking free and roll dodging.

Have good coordination in voice comms, so can hit multiple targets with a dawnbreaker at the same time.

Have good timing, so can get our shalks (warden) or proxy (magplar) to hit at the same time as dawnbreakers.

Have good awareness, so move out of opponent area ults.

Call out when low on resources, so we can reposition and regen as needed.

Make good use of the purify synergy (if magPlar in group) to get the 20+ debuffs and DoTs off.

Make good use of skills that remove snares - at least one if not two players with retreating.

Have someone (usually magPlar) who can tank all opponents for about 6-10 seconds while everyone else gets away, and who can usually then get away afterwards (S&B ulti + mist form, then immovable pot) or take one for the team if need be.

Im aware of all of this. This issue is not, again, learning how to play. The issue is, being coordinated, using ports, using poisons, using defence. For the most part, our group is not a bunch of dumb ass's that cant count to 10. This issue is, utterly and completely unbalanced, that is running a specific class/race/gear; that you become unmatched, unless you are fighting a mirror. And please understand, we all had our CPs put into PvP, we all had PvP gear, we all were running draining poisons and immovability pots. And as well, for our group, In discord, yelling to focus on X... Meanwhile, the other team that were there, did there thing.
Oh, and when I single targeted one the the guys, that apparently was asleep at the wheel (Cause thats the only way I can kill something) I get a tell calling me a "Piece of *** *** that needs to l2p"

Joshlenoir · August 2018

mattaeus01b16_ESO wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

As one of the small group (normally 3-4) players that takes on 10-15 regularly, we usually:
Are all stamina builds, sometimes 1 magPlar.

Are using sets of imperial physique (in IC) or a sustain set (in Cyrodiil), impregnable, and blood spawn (unless there's a mag templar in earthgore).

Know that our individual damage is low, survivability is high, and need to coordinate our damage (and especially ults) to get kills.

Consistently keep hots on each other, so figure between 4-8k heals per second on everyone.

Use lingering health potions to keep our healing up.

Use immovable potions ALL THE TIME (you wouldn't believe how much we spend on pots).

Have our champion points set to reduce cost of breaking free and roll dodging.

Have good coordination in voice comms, so can hit multiple targets with a dawnbreaker at the same time.

Have good timing, so can get our shalks (warden) or proxy (magplar) to hit at the same time as dawnbreakers.

Have good awareness, so move out of opponent area ults.

Call out when low on resources, so we can reposition and regen as needed.

Make good use of the purify synergy (if magPlar in group) to get the 20+ debuffs and DoTs off.

Make good use of skills that remove snares - at least one if not two players with retreating.

Have someone (usually magPlar) who can tank all opponents for about 6-10 seconds while everyone else gets away, and who can usually then get away afterwards (S&B ulti + mist form, then immovable pot) or take one for the team if need be.

Im aware of all of this. This issue is not, again, learning how to play. The issue is, being coordinated, using ports, using poisons, using defence. For the most part, our group is not a bunch of dumb ass's that cant count to 10. This issue is, utterly and completely unbalanced, that is running a specific class/race/gear; that you become unmatched, unless you are fighting a mirror. And please understand, we all had our CPs put into PvP, we all had PvP gear, we all were running draining poisons and immovability pots. And as well, for our group, In discord, yelling to focus on X... Meanwhile, the other team that were there, did there thing.
Oh, and when I single targeted one the the guys, that apparently was asleep at the wheel (Cause thats the only way I can kill something) I get a tell calling me a "Piece of *** *** that needs to l2p"

If you get 2v12ed the issue is absolutely learning how to play.
I don't know how your thought process works but getting 2v12ed is a much bigger problem than just "overpowered class and build combinations".
Sounds to me like you refuse to learn and own up to the fact that you got 2vXed so you've decided to absolve yourself from any responsibility or criticism to help ease the frustration of getting outplayed.

If you think it's just an overpowered build combination why don't you tell us the gear sets and the race your opponents were using and their classes?

Like I said before, we've all been there (although I was cp 200) but it isn't impossible to improve, you just need to get better and play differently. I'd advise going on YouTube and looking at the actual good players (hint: good players don't exclusively play large groups) and types of setups they run. Ask questions, make your own builds, understand how the numbers work and you'll never get dominated like that again.

JumpmanLane · August 2018

neverwalk wrote: »

Those two sound like a WELL OILED MACHINE.

They were. A pal and I 2v2ed them. The guy in Imperial Physique just didn’t want to die. He’d disengage when his partner would die. Kite, LOS, or even outright run. He’d reset the fight. His buddy would respawn. They’d reengage. They kept coming back. We took the flag they were camping and left after a bit.

If I recall correctly it was a Sorc and his NB pet lol. The NB had over 700 Cp. the guy in IP had about 1000 if I’m remembering right. They’d been around the block a few times.

Ampnode · August 2018

Really just organization vs disorganization. The organization is basically just kiting until your ults are ready and blowing them off at a choke point and spamming executes.

Mintaka5 · August 2018

I don't enjoy PvP at all unless I'm zerg surfing. If I run into a player with infinite resources, I 1) give up the fight and die, or 2) run away. It's a waste of time. What ZOS needs to do is start nerfing any and all aspects of the game that are statistically overpowered. Look at the KDRs of classes, builds, and skills, there has to be data somewhere that tells devs that a very limited combination of the these is dominating gameplay. Honestly if I could figure out the secret to these builds I would probably enjoy PvP more, but if it's skill/build/class/rotation or whatever, something needs to be done about those limited players who demonstrate build power and not actual skill (l33ts). Honestly how much skill is required to mash a combo of 1 thru 5 on the keyboard, and weave the left click on the mouse?

It's aggravating to have some OP player just run me through and tell me to L2P. Sure I'll L2P once the mechanics of the game allow me to actually do something in a fight rather than get smashed like a bug. No one can get better if all they do is play horse simulator. Also L2P simply involves participation over time, learning from mistakes, and adjusting appropriately. Dying instantly teaches me nothing. Dying over a longer fight teaches me what I did wrong. The game has proven time and again that progress cannot be attained against either cheats, OP builds, or just some evasive secret formula that allows one player to consistently dominate, while others are not granted the opportunity to learn from the fight.

PvP simply lacks balance.

JumpmanLane · August 2018

Mintaka5 wrote: »

I don't enjoy PvP at all unless I'm zerg surfing. If I run into a player with infinite resources, I 1) give up the fight and die, or 2) run away. It's a waste of time. What ZOS needs to do is start nerfing any and all aspects of the game that are statistically overpowered. Look at the KDRs of classes, builds, and skills, there has to be data somewhere that tells devs that a very limited combination of the these is dominating gameplay. Honestly if I could figure out the secret to these builds I would probably enjoy PvP more, but if it's skill/build/class/rotation or whatever, something needs to be done about those limited players who demonstrate build power and not actual skill (l33ts). Honestly how much skill is required to mash a combo of 1 thru 5 on the keyboard, and weave the left click on the mouse?

It's aggravating to have some OP player just run me through and tell me to L2P. Sure I'll L2P once the mechanics of the game allow me to actually do something in a fight rather than get smashed like a bug. No one can get better if all they do is play horse simulator. Also L2P simply involves participation over time, learning from mistakes, and adjusting appropriately. Dying instantly teaches me nothing. Dying over a longer fight teaches me what I did wrong. The game has proven time and again that progress cannot be attained against either cheats, OP builds, or just some evasive secret formula that allows one player to consistently dominate, while others are not granted the opportunity to learn from the fight.

PvP simply lacks balance.

You STILL need to learn to play. The best players I know duel each other nonstop. Have been doing so for years. They theorycraft all day long. They don’t run anything that resembles meta. They 1vX and small man. They only run groups larger than for when they have some noob buddy of theirs (like ME hehehehe) tagging along. They are organized. They know what you are and what you are running by your skills. They know the map. They’ve fought in the same SPOT hundreds of times.

You really just can’t pick this game up, port into Cyrodiil and expect to win against experienced, skilled players. You shouldn’t cry to ZOS for nerfs. You gotta get out there and play the game. You’re gonna die a lot. But that’s how you learn.

I ran out to Vivec PC NA at level 10. Nobody has died more than me lol. I’m pretty sure Jump Lane has never started a nerf thread hehehehe. (Tho ZOS should really consider nerfing Steam. Steam login is WAY OP).

Grimhallow · August 2018

Jeremy wrote: »

My most memorable tell was what this one guy sent me after I managed to stealth away at the end of a fight. I guess he was pissed he didn't get to kill me.

"How did it feel, watching all your friends die around you without you being able to save them?"

I guess he didn't know they were all strangers - not friends - and I could have cared less.

@Jeremy

Was that me!? I recall saying that one time or another, but I'm not sure I ever got to whisper it. I would love to have sent a tell like that, though xD It's so epic.

Although normally I only get to whisper to people I kill, since I am way too lazy to /tell @name people. I hardly ever remember their names

Anyways, back to the OP...

@mattaeus01b16_ESO

I'm not sure this is a story that works in your favor my friend. The "lack of balance" seems like one where you have two players that are well informed and prepared, vs 12 players that have very little idea what they are doing at all. In an MMO Knowing is half the battle

It may not even be that the sets that they were using were oh so overpowered. It can equally be that the people in your group are not well prepared, and are straight up wearing terrible sets. A deep understanding of combat mechanics goes a long way.

Example #1- your entire group was only able to get 1-2 Rune Cage CCs out in an hour. A CC that is unblockable and undodgable. Usually that means that they were actually getting hit by CCs, and thus benefited from increments of CC immunity.

Example #2- They never stopped running (implying that you never stopped chasing). It sounds like they took advantage of your lack of coordination, and stung you out, using line of sight to prepare ulti bombs before running again. This is like zerg-busting 101. If you don't want to get 1vXed, then don't chase around a well prepared duo in IC (where Imperial Physique can make a huge skill gap even larger by adding a massive amount of stats) that have come specifically to farm potatoes for AP during an event that attracts potatoes to PvP land.

Grimhallow · August 2018

Jeremy wrote: »

If there really was a build that allowed you to turn your character into one-man armies why don't more players do it? Why are these characters so rare?

That's why I think some kind of cheating might be involved. I'm not buying the argument there is only a handfull of skilled players in ESO's PvP and everyone else just sucks.

Actually this. This is exactly it. There are only a handfull of skilled players in ESO's PvP and everyone else just sucks.

They not only craft builds for very specific purposes, but they know exactly how to use them and have thousands of hours of experience.

The most common issues I heard from players I knew were as follows:

"I don't really care, I only want to have fun"
"I don't want to do the math on what the best sets are"
"I just kind of distribute my CP randomly, and it has worked well for me!"

It happens all the time.

If you want @mattaeus01b16_ESO (assuming you are on PC/NA), I would be happy to meet up with you in game and spam a few duels with you. We could investigate possible weaknesses and work on solutions for you PvP woes. I'm always happy to help! I'm actually hosing a clinic in my guild tonight at 6:00 PST, and you're welcome to come!

Thogard · August 2018

Here’s a fun little video of me and two buddies fighting a few over 12 at a tower. One of us died really early on so it was mostly a duo. The guy that lived is someone I’ve been playing with for over a year so we have a ton of synergy built up and you can see how we work together and how hard we are to kill since we stack vigors, bodyblock, and kite together.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=11H4L9r5USU

This vid wasn’t meant to be a movie since we eventually die but I just thought it was a fun little upload.

Waffennacht · August 2018

Grimick wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If there really was a build that allowed you to turn your character into one-man armies why don't more players do it? Why are these characters so rare?

That's why I think some kind of cheating might be involved. I'm not buying the argument there is only a handfull of skilled players in ESO's PvP and everyone else just sucks.

Actually this. This is exactly it. There are only a handfull of skilled players in ESO's PvP and everyone else just sucks.

They not only craft builds for very specific purposes, but they know exactly how to use them and have thousands of hours of experience.

The most common issues I hear from players I knew were as follows:

"I don't really care, I only want to have fun"
"I don't want to do the math on what the best sets are"
"I just kind of distribute my CP randomly, and it has worked well for me!"

It happens all the time.

If you want @mattaeus01b16_ESO (assuming you are on PC/NA), I would be happy to meet up with you in game and spam a few duels with you. We could investigate possible weaknesses and work on solutions for you PvP woes. I'm always happy to help! I'm actually hosing a clinic in my guild tonight at 6:00 PST, and you're welcome to come!

Bravo, this is exactly true

Ragnarock41 · August 2018

Its probably magsorcs with imperial physique. Yes, they are pretty much unkillable unless you shieldbreaker them to death.

But no, 12 people failing to kill 2 is a bit.. how do I put it. player skill issue. Don't expect an automatic victory because you had the numbers.

CatchMeTrolling · August 2018

Sounds like the players was just better. For some that’s hard to accept that a few players can be better than their entire group combined.

Malamar1229 · August 2018

I always found the suggestions at the bottom of the death recap to be super helpful and informative. I usually learn a lot especially when there is 20k in sloads on my recap

Grimhallow · August 2018

Malamar1229 wrote: »

I always found the suggestions at the bottom of the death recap to be super helpful and informative. I usually learn a lot especially when there is 20k in sloads on my recap

Yesterday I had a death recap tell me that I "should try using skill points to morph my skills to make them more powerful".

I was like, what the heck?

Then I realized I was using unmorphed werewolf on my backbar for the stam recovery xD

Joshlenoir · August 2018

Mintaka5 wrote: »

I don't enjoy PvP at all unless I'm zerg surfing.

Mintaka5 wrote: »

OP player just run me through

Lol you just answered your own question.

This game lacks perfect balance (it's much better than what it used to be though), yes. But the issue you're having right now isn't because of that. Asking for nerfs because players 3 hit KO you is like asking to lower the nets of a basketball court because you can't get a hoop in- rather than perfecting your shooting technique.

You only Zerg surf like you said. That is why you are not improving. If you actually wanted to know the ins and outs of the builds you'd ask people or do research online- but it sounds to me like you want to stand a chance against players who go out there alone in tough situations to learn what they do while you're just Zerg surfing and complaining about dying.

Unless this is a huge troll post then you got me

SilverWF · August 2018

Share their classes and specs please.

Joshlenoir · August 2018

Jeremy wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I've run into such players as well. The frustrating part is that it's too obscure why you lose - how can someone have so many resources, take no damage, and deal more than enough damage themselves? I wish there was a feature to inspect another player's gear ..

Me too.

If there really was a build that allowed you to turn your character into one-man armies why don't more players do it? Why are these characters so rare?

That's why I think some kind of cheating might be involved. I'm not buying the argument there is only a handfull of skilled players in ESO's PvP and everyone else just sucks.

Except everyone mostly does "suck" because everyone "large scale pvps" under the excuse that the game was intended for that- well fine you do you.
But the elite players who seem to be one man armies aren't in large groups ever.
The fact that you think cheating is involved despite many bans and client fixes to avoid that shows your unwillingness to learn and a glaring losers mentality. No offense.
You've been playing this game long enough to know class mechanics and builds, and why some players excel while others don't.

usmguy1234 · August 2018

This and I've also noticed people that can run full speed + and take damage like they are blocking... it even has the * by the damage number. Seems pretty suspicious.

mattaeus01b16_ESO · August 2018

Grimick wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If you want @mattaeus01b16_ESO (assuming you are on PC/NA), I would be happy to meet up with you in game and spam a few duels with you. We could investigate possible weaknesses and work on solutions for you PvP woes. I'm always happy to help! I'm actually hosing a clinic in my guild tonight at 6:00 PST, and you're welcome to come!

Thanks for the offer. But for now, Im done with PvP