What is P2W (pay to win)

generalmyrick · August 2018

generalmyrick wrote: »

What is P2W (pay to win)?

Answers quoted from local debate! @PrinceDamien and @DuskMarine

@idk yet the results are not..."negligible!" :-)

Gnozo · August 2018

Lysette wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w

For me, eso is heavily p2w.

Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.

But you don't pay for vMA or asylum weapons. You pay for DLC. You pay to play, same as you paid for game. You still need to work for them.
And what is "win" part in wardens? It's all about knowledge and skill, not just class. If I'll take warden - it won't be better then any other class.

But can i get vma or asylum weapons without the dlc?

Can i get robust fury rings without summerset?

Let me Show you an example:

2x StamDKs dueling. Same setups. Ravager + Fury and Bloodspawn. One without any dlc or chapter. The other one with all of it.

The paying player can get: Robust juwelry giving him more Damage and healing and backbar he can put the normal asylum 2h for more ult gen.

Both players have the same skilllevel. Butthe paying one got more damage/healing die to robust rings and more ult gen with asylum that the non paying player can never ever get without spending money.

No p2w? Really?

You can't get vMA weapon (well, except days of free ESO+). You also can't get anything without buying base game itself, you know? You need to pay for it, so it's "pay-to-win" from the first day! Stupid, yeah?
It would be P2W if you could buy vMA weapon for crowns. But it's not pay-to-win if you get part of the game. It's pay-to-play and play-to-win, absolutely as base game.

Dude what?

Pls tell me exactly how robust fury rings in my example of 2 StamDKs with the same skill level are not an advantage.

I am waiting.

Might be an advantage.

However, while you do have to buy the chapter to be able to craft rings, the crafted rings aren't bound to the crafter. And as far as I know, you don't have to own the chapter to *use* the rings. No reason you can't ask a crafter to make whatever rings/necklace you want.

Yeah, that was my point, there is a way to acquire that item as well without having to pay for the chapter.

Edit. ok I stand corrected - ignore this post please.

Gnozo wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w

For me, eso is heavily p2w.

Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.

But you don't pay for vMA or asylum weapons. You pay for DLC. You pay to play, same as you paid for game. You still need to work for them.
And what is "win" part in wardens? It's all about knowledge and skill, not just class. If I'll take warden - it won't be better then any other class.

But can i get vma or asylum weapons without the dlc?

Can i get robust fury rings without summerset?

Let me Show you an example:

2x StamDKs dueling. Same setups. Ravager + Fury and Bloodspawn. One without any dlc or chapter. The other one with all of it.

The paying player can get: Robust juwelry giving him more Damage and healing and backbar he can put the normal asylum 2h for more ult gen.

Both players have the same skilllevel. Butthe paying one got more damage/healing die to robust rings and more ult gen with asylum that the non paying player can never ever get without spending money.

No p2w? Really?

You can't get vMA weapon (well, except days of free ESO+). You also can't get anything without buying base game itself, you know? You need to pay for it, so it's "pay-to-win" from the first day! Stupid, yeah?
It would be P2W if you could buy vMA weapon for crowns. But it's not pay-to-win if you get part of the game. It's pay-to-play and play-to-win, absolutely as base game.

Dude what?

Pls tell me exactly how robust fury rings in my example of 2 StamDKs with the same skill level are not an advantage.

I am waiting.

Might be an advantage.

However, while you do have to buy the chapter to be able to craft rings, the crafted rings aren't bound to the crafter. And as far as I know, you don't have to own the chapter to *use* the rings. No reason you can't ask a crafter to make whatever rings/necklace you want.

Fury is a dropped set. And without summerset i cant transmute healthy fury rings into robust.

yeah, i saw this too late, Gnozo, that is why I wrote "I stand corrected".

I saw only after i hit "Post reply" sorry for this.

So take a look at guys who bought the base game. They are like oh man this Dude got Robust fury rings or arcane duroks bane. Or robust doruks bane. Or asylum 2h weapon.

How can a player with only the base game get access to this? Pay Money.

Ofc vma and asylum still needs to be earned but you cant earn them without spending money. Not counting eso plus free Events.

Juwelry crafting and transmute. You need summerset for this. You need to pay. Otherwise you will never get this wich is important in endgame pvp and giving you an advantage over other players.

This is pay2win for me. Being able to get weapons/sets/mechanics that are only avaible to players that spend money.

If Battlefield would release a DLC with a weapon that is significantly stronger then every other weapon in the base game in any aspect, dude the *** would be real.

And making this weapon require you to kill 20 players wont Change much cause you still can only get it by buying the DLC in the first step.

generalmyrick · August 2018

BNOC wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w

For me, eso is heavily p2w.

Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.

Those are DLC's that give you the ability to equip those items - That's not P2W.

That's like saying that buying any expansion on WoW is P2W because the level cap went up.

As a side note: we also know how weak Magdens are.

DLC's cannot be considered P2W.

Bring in a 1-set piece to the store that gives 5k all stats or food/drinks that have 50% increased stats to their gold, craftable counterparts - Now we're talking about some real P2W examples.

if the game offerred 5k all stats for money i'd probably buy it instantly. hahahaahaha

boombazookajd · August 2018

If you really break it down, everything is pay2win.

The new crown gifting allows those who have lots of real world money to buy gold. So those Mothers Sorrow inferno staffs that are going for 90-110k in the guild traders on xb1 can be bought with gold that was acquired with real world money.

Folks can now buy skin runs with crowns.

But in my definition, it's anything that is purchasable in game for real world cash that isn't otherwise obtainable with in-game currency or other drop methods. For instance: If weapons or gear were only purchasable in the crown store but did not drop in an arena or in dungeons.

That to me is p2w. Everything in ESO that is of genuine value is bound and locked behind the fact that you need to run the content. ESO isn't p2w, it's certainly pay2reducethegrind in some instances like xp scrolls but there's nothing but pretty pixels in the crown store.

Kiralyn2000 · August 2018

Yeah, if expansions are "pay to win", then every game that's ever released new content is p2w.

Diablo 2 was apparently p2w, because you needed to pay for Lord of Destruction. /eyeroll

If you make the definition of p2w that wide, it's no longer a useful term because it no longer means anything.

starkerealm · August 2018

Four potential definitions, and depending on who you're asking, it'll end up as one of these:

A Decisive Advantage: You pay for a bonus that will allow an inexperienced player sufficient power to overcome a significantly more skilled player.
A Comparative Advantage: You pay for a bonus that will allow a player victory over an opponent at an identical skill level.
A Utility Advantage: You pay for a bonus that provides some secondary benefit which can be used to gain a direct advantage over another player, but does not directly improve your performance.
An Idiot: You will sometimes see players arguing that cosmetic items, or other paywalled content is P2W. They are incorrect.

So, ESO doesn't have any decisive advantages.

If you squint and strain there are some utility advantages, except none of those actually translate into a combat advantage. An example of this is the Banker and Merchant NPCs; they provide direct utility benefits to the player, but that can't be converted into an actual advantage against another player.

There are things you can argue provide a Comparative Advantage. (They're not, but people do claim things like Jewelry Crafting and the Warden are P2W.) The thing is, this entire tier is kinda misleading. The idea is if you have two players of identical or equivalent skill... Now, that happens in the abstract. It's useful as a metric to say, "should I do this," but it's not informative in a live environment. Even with statistical advantages, ESO is far more dependent on player skill, and you will never find another player with your exact skill set.

In other MMOs, the comparative test can be valid, and can indicate P2W, however, this simply isn't true with ESO. This can result in confusion for players

Oh, right, and then there are the idiots out there crying about how the Frostcaster motif is P2W. I wouldn't even list them, except, they're out there, and they're wrong.

idk · August 2018

generalmyrick wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

What is P2W (pay to win)?

Answers quoted from local debate! @PrinceDamien and @DuskMarine

@idk yet the results are not..."negligible!" :-)

The results are irrelevant due to the poor wording of the choices. I was trying to be nice and point out the poll was poorly written.

It doesn’t matter anyhow. Statistically speaking forum polls are entertainment value only because design. They cannot provide reliable sampling for the results to show worthy results.

DMuehlhausen · August 2018

Ragebull wrote: »

Aren’t the 2 options the same thing?

Technically no. One is saying you advance quicker. Techincally that is P2W as everybody gets to that point eventually.

So an example. We both buy the game. You can't buy a fully leveled / geared character. I can and do. Day 1 I'm raiding and you aren't. I'm not paying to "win" anything. I'm paying for the convenience of not having to level and collect gear. You will eventually get this gear if you play long enough and grind dungeons enough.

The second option is Pay to Win cause we both might be the same level, but I'm able to afford gear that out classes yours cause I have the money to pay for it. No matter how much you play you will never be able to obtain this better gear unless you pay for it.

LadyNalcarya · August 2018

Gnozo wrote: »

For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w

For me, eso is heavily p2w.

Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.

You cannot play the game without spending money. Does that mean that the majority of games are p2w, because, you know, you have to pay for content?
Well, I suppose you can play those "totally free" f2p games instead. Just think about it, you won't have to pay for updates! You will be rekt by whales, but who cares if the game is free, right?

DMuehlhausen · August 2018

There is nothing wrong with Option 1. Who cares if I can afford to buy a fully geared and leveled character. Everybody else can get there eventually. It doesn't make me better or stronger in the long run just quicker.

Option 2 is terrible for games since people with enough money are just more powerful regardless of play time or luck with the RNG.

Lysette · August 2018

And then where is pvp actually a fair fight - pretty much nowhere - so pay2win is very relative to the situation. If it is not a contest situation, with a fair one-on-one or x-on-x condition, it means nothing really. Most fights aren't any fair anyway.

Lysette · August 2018

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with Option 1. Who cares if I can afford to buy a fully geared and leveled character. Everybody else can get there eventually. It doesn't make me better or stronger in the long run just quicker.

Option 2 is terrible for games since people with enough money are just more powerful regardless of play time or luck with the RNG.

Then again, you could give me the best gear and I would still suck at the game - there are other things like ping of 380, which matter more than gear.

Valrien · August 2018

Gnozo wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w

For me, eso is heavily p2w.

Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.

But you don't pay for vMA or asylum weapons. You pay for DLC. You pay to play, same as you paid for game. You still need to work for them.
And what is "win" part in wardens? It's all about knowledge and skill, not just class. If I'll take warden - it won't be better then any other class.

But can i get vma or asylum weapons without the dlc?

Can i get robust fury rings without summerset?

Let me Show you an example:

2x StamDKs dueling. Same setups. Ravager + Fury and Bloodspawn. One without any dlc or chapter. The other one with all of it.

The paying player can get: Robust juwelry giving him more Damage and healing and backbar he can put the normal asylum 2h for more ult gen.

Both players have the same skilllevel. Butthe paying one got more damage/healing die to robust rings and more ult gen with asylum that the non paying player can never ever get without spending money.

No p2w? Really?

You can't get vMA weapon (well, except days of free ESO+). You also can't get anything without buying base game itself, you know? You need to pay for it, so it's "pay-to-win" from the first day! Stupid, yeah?
It would be P2W if you could buy vMA weapon for crowns. But it's not pay-to-win if you get part of the game. It's pay-to-play and play-to-win, absolutely as base game.

Dude what?

Pls tell me exactly how robust fury rings in my example of 2 StamDKs with the same skill level are not an advantage.

I am waiting.

Might be an advantage.

However, while you do have to buy the chapter to be able to craft rings, the crafted rings aren't bound to the crafter. And as far as I know, you don't have to own the chapter to *use* the rings. No reason you can't ask a crafter to make whatever rings/necklace you want.

Fury is a dropped set. And without summerset i cant transmute healthy fury rings into robust.

Transmutation isn't Summerset...

Valrien · August 2018

Lysette wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with Option 1. Who cares if I can afford to buy a fully geared and leveled character. Everybody else can get there eventually. It doesn't make me better or stronger in the long run just quicker.

Option 2 is terrible for games since people with enough money are just more powerful regardless of play time or luck with the RNG.

Then again, you could give me the best gear and I would still suck at the game - there are other things like ping of 380, which matter more than gear.

Good Internet is P2W

Krayl · August 2018

If you aren't into playing enough to invest in a subscription and purchase DLCs and Expansions, but you care about being "the best" and having "the best possible items" - sorry, that's just weird.

I've been playing MMO's since MMO's have been a thing. I've always subscribed and purchased expansions because that's how you ensure you'll keep getting new content to play - paying.

This model is not 'new', and saying people who purchase expansions are 'paying to win' you're just being completely ridiculous.

Curious- how many of your favorite game studios need to lay off their teams and shut their doors before half the gaming 'community' stops being cheapskates, or at least stops complaining about how everyone else chooses to support their games and hobbies?

Gilvoth · August 2018

when they sell weapons and / or armor that is more powerfull then what is ingame, that can only be gotten by real life money in the crown store THAT is when it is "pay to win"

Hibernato · August 2018

Gnozo wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w

For me, eso is heavily p2w.

Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.

But you don't pay for vMA or asylum weapons. You pay for DLC. You pay to play, same as you paid for game. You still need to work for them.
And what is "win" part in wardens? It's all about knowledge and skill, not just class. If I'll take warden - it won't be better then any other class.

But can i get vma or asylum weapons without the dlc?

Can i get robust fury rings without summerset?

Let me Show you an example:

2x StamDKs dueling. Same setups. Ravager + Fury and Bloodspawn. One without any dlc or chapter. The other one with all of it.

The paying player can get: Robust juwelry giving him more Damage and healing and backbar he can put the normal asylum 2h for more ult gen.

Both players have the same skilllevel. Butthe paying one got more damage/healing die to robust rings and more ult gen with asylum that the non paying player can never ever get without spending money.

No p2w? Really?

You know you can transmute as a non dlc player by buying a station or visiting someones home that has a station? So your point is pretty weak.

On topic, p2w = any item that can be bought directly (like a costume) that can increase the stats of your character more than the version that can be made/found in game.

Anyone calling a dlc p2w is dumb.

Linaleah · August 2018

other. becasue pay to win is when the ONLY way to gain genuine gameplay advantage, is through cash shop ONLY. when the best gameplay items are not available through actual gameplay.

and as others have said, content packs are NOT p2w. why? becasue buying a content pack doesn't automatically grant you all those new sets, weapons, etc. you STILL have to earn them in game, just like everyone else. you cannot just pull out a credit card and bam - BiS weapon and its the ONLY way to get that weapon. you cannot play for it.

P.S. you can transmute at guild house that has a transmute station, you do not have to go to clockwork city for it. you can buy crafted jewelry from other players with gold and you don't need to buy summerset to farm JC materials or sell them to other players.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · August 2018

Gnozo wrote: »

For me it depends. Can you get this progress/items without spending money?
If yes = no p2w
If no = p2w

For me, eso is heavily p2w.

Vma weapons, Asylum weapons, juwelry crafting and the warden class. These things you can only get if you put money on it. And we know how strong stamdens are. How good asylum and vma weapons are. And that you can never transmute dropped juwelry without spending money.

stamden strong??? *looks behind at the huge pile of dead wardens*
can I has some of ur skooma pls? mine is broken.

Guppet · August 2018

Your options are terrible.

Pay to win is very simple.

It’s paying to gain something you can’t achieve in game without paying. If anything can be obtained in game by playing that’s not pay to win.

For example Paying for a max level character would not be pay to win, as you can get that just by playing. That’s pay for convenience. Many mistake that for pay to win.

kongkim · August 2018

Guppet wrote: »

Your options are terrible.

Pay to win is very simple.

It’s paying to gain something you can’t achieve in game without paying. If anything can be obtained in game by playing that’s not pay to win.

For example Paying for a max level character would not be pay to win, as you can get that just by playing. That’s pay for convenience. Many mistake that for pay to win.

So if you can buy a green ring with a cool design that give crap stats, on the CS, then you WIN?

Mattock_Romulus · August 2018

Say for example, the meta is being a vampire for regen and damage resistance and escape via mist form.

Now if say you could buy a vampire bite in the crown store that would be pay to win.

idk · August 2018

kongkim wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Your options are terrible.

Pay to win is very simple.

It’s paying to gain something you can’t achieve in game without paying. If anything can be obtained in game by playing that’s not pay to win.

For example Paying for a max level character would not be pay to win, as you can get that just by playing. That’s pay for convenience. Many mistake that for pay to win.

So if you can buy a green ring with a cool design that give crap stats, on the CS, then you WIN?

I suggest reading his post again.

A green ring with crap stats can be obtained in game. Obviously. While he could have worded it better anyone with even the most basic understanding of P2W would understand what he was saying.

kongkim · August 2018

Mattock_Romulus wrote: »

Say for example, the meta is being a vampire for regen and damage resistance and escape via mist form.

Now if say you could buy a vampire bite in the crown store that would be pay to win.

Way. You can just go out and get it by playing the game?

kongkim · August 2018

idk wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Your options are terrible.

Pay to win is very simple.

It’s paying to gain something you can’t achieve in game without paying. If anything can be obtained in game by playing that’s not pay to win.

For example Paying for a max level character would not be pay to win, as you can get that just by playing. That’s pay for convenience. Many mistake that for pay to win.

So if you can buy a green ring with a cool design that give crap stats, on the CS, then you WIN?

I suggest reading his post again.

A green ring with crap stats can be obtained in game. Obviously. While he could have worded it better anyone with even the most basic understanding of P2W would understand what he was saying.

I suggest reading my post again... The new ring on CS had a cool design..

idk · August 2018

Mattock_Romulus wrote: »

Say for example, the meta is being a vampire for regen and damage resistance and escape via mist form.

Now if say you could buy a vampire bite in the crown store that would be pay to win.

@Mattock_Romulus

Incorrect. If vampire was only available vid the crown store or if it was a better version than what was available in game the yiu could call it P2W. As it is a vampire bite in game is very easy to obtain.

idk · August 2018

kongkim wrote: »

idk wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Your options are terrible.

Pay to win is very simple.

It’s paying to gain something you can’t achieve in game without paying. If anything can be obtained in game by playing that’s not pay to win.

For example Paying for a max level character would not be pay to win, as you can get that just by playing. That’s pay for convenience. Many mistake that for pay to win.

So if you can buy a green ring with a cool design that give crap stats, on the CS, then you WIN?

I suggest reading his post again.

A green ring with crap stats can be obtained in game. Obviously. While he could have worded it better anyone with even the most basic understanding of P2W would understand what he was saying.

I suggest reading my post again... The new ring on CS had a cool design..

Clearly irrelevant to P2W

boombazookajd · August 2018

World of Tanks is p2w.

ESO is far superior to that horrible, horrible game

kongkim · August 2018

idk wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

idk wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Your options are terrible.

Pay to win is very simple.

It’s paying to gain something you can’t achieve in game without paying. If anything can be obtained in game by playing that’s not pay to win.

For example Paying for a max level character would not be pay to win, as you can get that just by playing. That’s pay for convenience. Many mistake that for pay to win.

So if you can buy a green ring with a cool design that give crap stats, on the CS, then you WIN?

I suggest reading his post again.

A green ring with crap stats can be obtained in game. Obviously. While he could have worded it better anyone with even the most basic understanding of P2W would understand what he was saying.

I suggest reading my post again... The new ring on CS had a cool design..

Clearly irrelevant to P2W

Yes totally. i know.
But he did say "It’s paying to gain something you can’t achieve in game without paying. If anything can be obtained in game by playing that’s not pay to win."

And you can get that ring ingame. Thats way i ask if he wins then?

People just have sooo many weird ideas of what P2W is.
If looking at all the posts in here. all others items beside base game would make someone call it P2W. its just a little funny.

Mattock_Romulus · August 2018

idk wrote: »

Mattock_Romulus wrote: »

Say for example, the meta is being a vampire for regen and damage resistance and escape via mist form.

Now if say you could buy a vampire bite in the crown store that would be pay to win.

@Mattock_Romulus

Incorrect. If vampire was only available vid the crown store or if it was a better version than what was available in game the yiu could call it P2W. As it is a vampire bite in game is very easy to obtain.

Sure. You can define it that way. For me pay to win is paying money for items or power without playing the game. The OP asked us what we thought pay to win is. That's my definition. My opinion.

Did you get your definition from an official source or is everyone just pulling their definitions out of their arses?