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Relequen Nerf

kojou
kojou
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Arms of Relequen: Added a 1 second cooldown to the proc from this item set.

Given that the duration of the DoT is 5 seconds does this effectively limit us to 5 stacks or am I misunderstanding?

Playing since beta...
  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
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    Nerf siroria
    Edited by Aliyavana on July 30, 2018 4:47PM
    Zebendal- Stam Sorc, PC NA
  • kojou
    kojou
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    I don't think so. My first thought is, that is probably made to avoid the rapid generation of stacks by werewolves wearing new monster set from upcoming dungeons (one that accelerates attack speed and allows dishing out a lot of light attacks in quick succession).

    Ah, so forcing it to stay on the original light attack cool down.

    Somehow I still feel the need to test and see if this causes a DPS loss.
    Edited by kojou on July 30, 2018 3:53PM
    Playing since beta...
  • jypcy
    jypcy
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    Yeah I think it works like prior stack sets, such as berserking warrior and two-fanged snake. That is, your stacks continue to build up as long as you meet the conditions to apply another stack before the stack wears off. Each instance you apply to the stack doesn’t have its own timer; applying an instance builds up the stack and resets the full stack’s timer.

    I agree, I think this is to prevent faster buildup of stacks using the new LA attack speed set.
  • TheDarkShadow
    TheDarkShadow
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    With normal weaving, we only do LA every 1s or even 1.1s so adding a 1s cooldown to this set does not change anything. It only stop the Blood Moon LA werewolves which is a good thing. Spamming only LA and get over 50k dps is ridiculous.
  • LadyNalcarya
    LadyNalcarya
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    kojou wrote: »
    I don't think so. My first thought is, that is probably made to avoid the rapid generation of stacks by werewolves wearing new monster set from upcoming dungeons (one that accelerates attack speed and allows dishing out a lot of light attacks in quick succession).

    Ah, so forcing it to stay on the original light attack cool down.

    Somehow I still feel the need to test and see if this causes a DPS loss.

    It shouldnt cause too much of a loss on a normal stam build (non-werewolf), you're normally weaving light attacks with skills so its unlikely that you're getting more than 1 attack per second anyway.
    They just slightly nerfed the stupid ww la gimmick.
    Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason

    PC/EU
  • danielarvynn1
    i've tested Relequen on both Live and PTS as soon as this patch went live to compare stuff...

    the only difference with my setup:
    Live: Infused Sword of Ravaging with Poison enchant, Infused Dagger of Ravaging with Berserker Enchant, Precise vMA bow with Damage Health Poison IX
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/434020153337053208/473525811543146526/Screenshot_20180731_042135.png

    PTSL Nirn Sword of Ravaging with Disease Enchant, Infused Dagger of Ravaging with Berserker Enchant, Infused vMA bow with Poison enchant
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/434020153337053208/473520410789412864/Screenshot_20180731_035918.png

    I've done my testing on both with 470 CP and the uptime for Relequen has ~6% difference. if you can keep up with your weaving, then the added cooldown doesnt mean anything at all.
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    Sidenote: CD for light attacks (Also Werewolf LAs) is ~0.6 seconds (The only exception to this is 2H weapon LAs with a CD of 1.0s)
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on July 30, 2018 8:27PM
  • Runefang
    Runefang
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    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    Sidenote: CD for light attacks (Also Werewolf LAs) is ~0.6 seconds (The only exception to this is 2H weapon LAs with a CD of 1.0s)

    That’s for pure light attack spam though. Has anyone been able to exceed 1 LA per second while weaving skills? That would be the main scenario affected by this nerf. If you can light attack weave every 0.99s then the ramp up time for Relequen would now be double. If it’s every 1.01s then there is no effect.

    From memory the top NB players hit ~0.94 LAs per second?

    Or a LA every 1.06 seconds
    Edited by Runefang on July 30, 2018 10:27PM
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    True, but that is averaged over a fight. Bar swaps and the delay on skills like Assassins Scourge or Endless Hail bring this average up. Are the truly instant skills still more than 1s apart?
  • John_Falstaff
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    Yes, there is a global cooldown for all skills, instant ones included. Endless Hail isn't really an exception, just some skills have longer animation (which can be canceled).
    Edited by John_Falstaff on July 30, 2018 11:16PM
  • Runefang
    Runefang
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    Yes, there is a global cooldown for all skills, instant ones included. Endless Hail isn't really an exception, just some skills have longer animation (which can be canceled).

    And top players know that ones with the longest animations and make sure they bar swap cancel those as much as possible.

  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    I could be wrong here, but I’m pretty sure you have to wait longer to bar swap after casting Endless Hail than you do after Poison Injection (or the Hail will be cancelled). This means that the time between the pre-Hail light attack and the post-hail light attack will be longer than for most skills.

    Additionally, isn’t the vMA effect negated if you bar swap cancel hail before the first tick of damage? This was a known issue back when they changed the effect to be a set bonus instead of an enchant (HotR?). I don’t recall seeing anything about it being fixed, but I have not tested in a while. If so then you would never want hail to be the last skill before a bar swap, meaning you have to let the animation play out. You could block cancel I guess, but that means forfeiting 2s of stam regen.

    It’s a similar situation for Mag Sorc, where you can much more efficiently bar swap cancel Wall than Liquid Lightning, because LL will fail to cast if you swap early, while Wall can be instantly bar swapped. You also don’t have to worry about losing the vMA destro bonus because wall ticks instantly, unlike the delay on Endless Hail.

    Also any Nightblade will confirm that bow procs have a short cast time/delay. I’m not sure if this is intended or just clunky. They really mess up the rhythm of a rotation, and definitely skew the average light attacks per second statistic.
  • John_Falstaff
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    @WrathOfInnos , yes, Thunderous Volley won't work if you swap-cancel Endless Hail before first tick hits, so canceling it with bar swap isn't an option. But I'll say it's practical to block-cancel it though. I'm doing it and didn't notice significant sustain loss (on top of poor sustain of the class itself). Same for Caltrops for instance.
    Edited by John_Falstaff on July 31, 2018 7:32AM
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
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    @WrathOfInnos , yes, Thunderous Volley won't work if you swap-cancel Endless Hail before first tick hits, so canceling it with bar swap isn't an option. But I'll say it's practical to block-cancel it though. I'm doing it and didn't notice significant sustain loss (on top of poor sustain of the class itself). Same for Caltrops for instance.

    You literally don't need to block cancel it, you can light attack cancel it like every other skill. Block canceling saves no time and it loses you a light attack. The following video shows that block canceling saves no time and adds no dps, two runs are done one with block canceling the other without starting at 1:15:



    Players feel like it is saving time because the animation cancel has a reward effect to their cognitive recognition. You can see in the following video, starting at 3:59 that the next light attack and skill goes off before the Endless Hail begins to animate on the ground.



    Block cancelling is bad for stam because of two reasons. Number one you risk losing a recovery tick, lost ticks only happen if the block coincides with what would be the tick event. Which is why you won't often notice much of a difference. Number two the constant barrage of small damage in PVE won't likely hurt you, especially with a healer, however there is a chance you will be charged a block cost and lose stam for blocking damage.

    TDLR: stam should only block cancel to survive fight mechanics.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
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    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • John_Falstaff
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    @Toc de Malsvi , thanks for the write-up, I'll definitely be spending time trying to test and hopefully avoid it. I count my light attacks, and I think I'm not skipping any; and why I'm block-canceling up to this moment is because I (using LA helper addon) am noticing that LA couldn't fire earlier than 1.6 seconds after regular Hail (and it could get it down to one second with Hail block-canceled). But it can very well be a problem on my part.
    Edited by John_Falstaff on July 31, 2018 9:23AM
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    This one second cooldown applies to the stacks in this way:

    Before, relequen dealt damage when you light attack AND every second in between. This is the reason why you got a lot more than one tick of relequen per second and incredibly high dps from this set.

    Now, the cooldown prevents you from getting more than one tick a second, reducing the dps you get.
    PC EU - CP 1200+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason
    Shéogórath - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Wamasel - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror + Bringer of Light
    Nord Warden - Warden - Nord - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
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  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    @Masel92 @ZOS_Wrobel

    Ah... That makes more sense...

    I kinda would've assumed that it originally would function like:

    Light & Heavy attacks apply a stack of Harmful Winds (stack application deals no damage asides from the damage per stack (~189))
    Harmful Winds has a stack counter, a timer, and a source.
    Each time the timer increments by 1s it deals damage based on the stack counter.
    Each time a stack is applied from the same source (player), It adds 1 to the stack counter if it's less than 20, and subtracts 1s from the timer if it's greater than 0. (assuming the timer is a double, this should not cause a overlap issue like axe bleeds?)) (The timer is still a pain point here)
    Once it reaches 5s it falls off.
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on July 31, 2018 11:58AM
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    Masel92 wrote: »
    This one second cooldown applies to the stacks in this way:

    Before, relequen dealt damage when you light attack AND every second in between. This is the reason why you got a lot more than one tick of relequen per second and incredibly high dps from this set.

    Now, the cooldown prevents you from getting more than one tick a second, reducing the dps you get.

    Wow, that’s like a 20-30% reduction in Relequen’s damage.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Masel92 wrote: »
    This one second cooldown applies to the stacks in this way:

    Before, relequen dealt damage when you light attack AND every second in between. This is the reason why you got a lot more than one tick of relequen per second and incredibly high dps from this set.

    Now, the cooldown prevents you from getting more than one tick a second, reducing the dps you get.

    Wow, that’s like a 20-30% reduction in Relequen’s damage.

    the nerf is not as big as you might think, i was on the PTS and i still get over 6k out of it on my stamblade:

    Screenshot_20180731_200911.png

    The added cooldown seems to apply to the stack building: you can only increase your stack number once every second, but it still deals damage on every light attack you do regardless. So this change doesn't really do anything besides slightly increasing the time you need to stack the set up.
    Edited by Masel on July 31, 2018 6:53PM
    PC EU - CP 1200+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason
    Shéogórath - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Wamasel - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror + Bringer of Light
    Nord Warden - Warden - Nord - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    I think this thread just went full circle. That’s good that the nerf is insignificant though.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    I think this thread just went full circle. That’s good that the nerf is insignificant though.

    Look at the 96% average critical by the way :smiley:

    Minor savagery gives 30% critical on the pts.

    I'm not a big fan of relequen by the way... I think they should increase melee light attack damage instead. Destruction staves deal higher damage from full range than a giant sword that is smashed in your face....
    Edited by Masel on August 1, 2018 7:24PM
    PC EU - CP 1200+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason
    Shéogórath - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Wamasel - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror + Bringer of Light
    Nord Warden - Warden - Nord - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    Masel92 wrote: »
    I think this thread just went full circle. That’s good that the nerf is insignificant though.

    Look at the 96% average critical by the way :smiley:

    Minor savagery gives 30% critical on the pts.

    I'm not a big fan of relequen by the way... I think they should increase melee light attack damage instead. Destruction staves deal higher damage from full range than a giant sword that is smashed in your face....

    +1

    This is a great suggestion.
  • Tannus15
    Tannus15
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    Masel92 wrote: »
    I think this thread just went full circle. That’s good that the nerf is insignificant though.

    Look at the 96% average critical by the way :smiley:

    Minor savagery gives 30% critical on the pts.

    I'm not a big fan of relequen by the way... I think they should increase melee light attack damage instead. Destruction staves deal higher damage from full range than a giant sword that is smashed in your face....

    I'm fine with fireballs and balls of lightning doing a good amount of damage as they slam into you ;)

    however I really don't like relequen. It's way too strong and is a must have for PvE stam builds along with a vMA bow.
    Not a lot of variety out there in stam land at the moment. It's really just "advancing yokeda or ravager?"
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Tannus15 wrote: »
    Masel92 wrote: »
    I think this thread just went full circle. That’s good that the nerf is insignificant though.

    Look at the 96% average critical by the way :smiley:

    Minor savagery gives 30% critical on the pts.

    I'm not a big fan of relequen by the way... I think they should increase melee light attack damage instead. Destruction staves deal higher damage from full range than a giant sword that is smashed in your face....

    I'm fine with fireballs and balls of lightning doing a good amount of damage as they slam into you ;)

    however I really don't like relequen. It's way too strong and is a must have for PvE stam builds along with a vMA bow.
    Not a lot of variety out there in stam land at the moment. It's really just "advancing yokeda or ravager?"

    Its more about the fact that you can easily light attack targets from range, especially in pvp. Try landing a melee light attack on an enemy who's moving fast...
    PC EU - CP 1200+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason
    Shéogórath - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Wamasel - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror + Bringer of Light
    Nord Warden - Warden - Nord - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
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