What would make playing a tank fun?

Guppet · July 2018

umagon wrote: »

I find pve tanking in eso boring mainly due to the taut and hold block mechanics. In another game I played tanks where power houses of agro and damage. Staying alive was more about maintaining the defensive skills up on the player’s attack rotation. In the game you could tank with a two hander weapon because of this. Which was the tank’s “dps” weapon. There were different stances, in defensive stance you can tank, but during parts of the fight if you knew what you where doing you could mid-fight flip to the offense stance and do damage. Also, with the two hander you could knock back groups enemies and charge enemies.

You would basically charge into a mass of enemies knock them down with the knock back then start the defense rotation which pulled a lot of hate. Once the dps engaged and your defense buffs were up you would flip over to dps mode for one or two combo rotations. This was really satisfying from an action combat standpoint because as a tank you were a raging tempest of destruction and crowd control. The only down side was tanks could not heal themselves, so mistakes would cost you.

Buffing the group was the healer’s role, and debuffs where dps’s role. Tanks where mostly crowd control. I wouldn’t expect eso to function exactly the same but tanking in that game was one the more funnier experiences I have had.

Did that game have PvP? Giving tanks huge damage does not work in any game with functional PvP or the tanks are unkillable gods.

Ratzkifal · July 2018

My main issue with tanking is that you have to hold down blocking at all times and in longer fights that may hurt your finger a bit. I don't mind just standing there and keeping block up as positioning the boss just right is already most of the fun to me. For a while I even ran around with the Harbinger set with Plague doctor in pvp and laughed as my enemies killed themselves while hitting me. That build was also only 100% block.
I like the lack of an AoE taunt as it means you constantly have something to do in a fight with adds, so as a compromise I would like it to be an ultimate (undaunted lvl10?).
Creating some engaging tank sets would already be enough in my eyes. Harbinger is a good one, but it just does something while you do what you always do - aka blocking. What I would like to see is diversity in tank sets that break your routine. There are plenty of ways to play DD, a few ways to play healer and only one way to play tank - keep block up. (I don't count Frost staff tanks as tanking, because frost staves suck and don't fit the fantasy. Besides they only block too.) Imagine if instead of blocking, you could channel a protective spell/synergy or maybe you can create an actual barrier to hide behind. Sure, these things are often just the mechanics of the bosses you are fighting, but they don't have to be. They could be part of the tank lifestyle.

josiahva · July 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

The sets I’ve mentioned will give you plenty of stamina or magica. You also don’t really need all your stats in health. I don’t l know about trials, but for everything else you can go full Stam or full magica with your attributes and still hit 35k health when in your tank gear, which is all you need if your good with mechanics. You could put 10-20 in health just while your learning mechanics if you like a bit of a cushion.

As for anyone complaining about needing extra gear to do dps, you can’t be any sort of decent tank. I have 4 or 5 tanking sets that I can switch between, having different sets is part of being an effective tank. Add in being able to switch up monster sets depending on how you feel and you should have half full bags, just with tank gear. Adding in one dps set is nothing.

Yes, because everyone starts at CP1000, knows exactly how to make a competent hybrid build and knows how to play multiple roles while also having 350 skill points to put in 3 weapon skill lines without having done any quests before. -_-

You're still missing the point. Of course it's possible to have fancy hybrid setups and even a full on DPS setup on a char with tank CPs and attributes, but it is not a reasonable expectation to have for overland content, because that content is meant to be done by everyone starting at lvl3. If tanks can't comfortably do content meant for lvl3 players, something needs to be changed.

You missing the point when you are only a tank in groups. If you focus on tanking, your focusing on stuff hitting you while someone else kills it.

Obviously when solo it’s going to take longer to kill stuff, it’s like saying the grass is too green.

You can’t ask for dps on a build that’s made to out survive stuff. You can still complete all content it will just take longer.

It doesn't just take longer, it takes so long that you might as well go watch paint dry. I'm not asking for 40k DPS, but just enough to still have fun doing it. 2k DPS is not fun.

1. Put 0 points in health stats(I have 50k health on my imperial tank with 0 points in health). Use enchants on gear for health, mundus stones, etc.(put everything in stam)
2. Get a gear and skill changer add on if on PC(if on console you will just have to take a few minutes instead) and always carry a set of DPS gear
3. When you are doing solo/overland content swap gear and skills to DPS gear and DPS skills(I personally use Hundings rage and Spriggans with Bow/Dual Wield because I cant be bothered to farm something better for my tank)

Using this method I can pull a pretty easy 20-30k DPS(depending on whether I actually pay attention to my rotation) while doing solo stuff(can also swap to this gear on bosses where tanks are worthless). This requires no CP redistribution, no mundus stone changes...just a skill and gear change, and within a couple minutes(or seconds with an add-on) you can be back in tank-spec

ZeroXFF · July 2018

josiahva wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

The sets I’ve mentioned will give you plenty of stamina or magica. You also don’t really need all your stats in health. I don’t l know about trials, but for everything else you can go full Stam or full magica with your attributes and still hit 35k health when in your tank gear, which is all you need if your good with mechanics. You could put 10-20 in health just while your learning mechanics if you like a bit of a cushion.

As for anyone complaining about needing extra gear to do dps, you can’t be any sort of decent tank. I have 4 or 5 tanking sets that I can switch between, having different sets is part of being an effective tank. Add in being able to switch up monster sets depending on how you feel and you should have half full bags, just with tank gear. Adding in one dps set is nothing.

Yes, because everyone starts at CP1000, knows exactly how to make a competent hybrid build and knows how to play multiple roles while also having 350 skill points to put in 3 weapon skill lines without having done any quests before. -_-

You're still missing the point. Of course it's possible to have fancy hybrid setups and even a full on DPS setup on a char with tank CPs and attributes, but it is not a reasonable expectation to have for overland content, because that content is meant to be done by everyone starting at lvl3. If tanks can't comfortably do content meant for lvl3 players, something needs to be changed.

You missing the point when you are only a tank in groups. If you focus on tanking, your focusing on stuff hitting you while someone else kills it.

Obviously when solo it’s going to take longer to kill stuff, it’s like saying the grass is too green.

You can’t ask for dps on a build that’s made to out survive stuff. You can still complete all content it will just take longer.

It doesn't just take longer, it takes so long that you might as well go watch paint dry. I'm not asking for 40k DPS, but just enough to still have fun doing it. 2k DPS is not fun.

1. Put 0 points in health stats(I have 50k health on my imperial tank with 0 points in health). Use enchants on gear for health, mundus stones, etc.(put everything in stam)
2. Get a gear and skill changer add on if on PC(if on console you will just have to take a few minutes instead) and always carry a set of DPS gear
3. When you are doing solo/overland content swap gear and skills to DPS gear and DPS skills(I personally use Hundings rage and Spriggans with Bow/Dual Wield because I cant be bothered to farm something better for my tank)

Using this method I can pull a pretty easy 20-30k DPS(depending on whether I actually pay attention to my rotation) while doing solo stuff(can also swap to this gear on bosses where tanks are worthless). This requires no CP redistribution, no mundus stone changes...just a skill and gear change, and within a couple minutes(or seconds with an add-on) you can be back in tank-spec

Please read the discussion. I already addressed all of your points. The TL;DR version is: it should not be expected that people make specific separate builds for content made for lvl3 players.

josiahva · July 2018

Ratzkifal wrote: »

My main issue with tanking is that you have to hold down blocking at all times and in longer fights that may hurt your finger a bit. I don't mind just standing there and keeping block up as positioning the boss just right is already most of the fun to me. For a while I even ran around with the Harbinger set with Plague doctor in pvp and laughed as my enemies killed themselves while hitting me. That build was also only 100% block.
I like the lack of an AoE taunt as it means you constantly have something to do in a fight with adds, so as a compromise I would like it to be an ultimate (undaunted lvl10?).
Creating some engaging tank sets would already be enough in my eyes. Harbinger is a good one, but it just does something while you do what you always do - aka blocking. What I would like to see is diversity in tank sets that break your routine. There are plenty of ways to play DD, a few ways to play healer and only one way to play tank - keep block up. (I don't count Frost staff tanks as tanking, because frost staves suck and don't fit the fantasy. Besides they only block too.) Imagine if instead of blocking, you could channel a protective spell/synergy or maybe you can create an actual barrier to hide behind. Sure, these things are often just the mechanics of the bosses you are fighting, but they don't have to be. They could be part of the tank lifestyle.

You most certainly do NOT have to block all the time. There are only a few fights in the entire game where perma-blocking is needed or advantageous. I block ONLY when I need to block. Sure, it requires better timing a better situational awareness, but also makes it so I don't have to run Sturdy on every piece(sturdy sets are best kept in inventory and equipped only when perma-blocking is actually needed). If you have to perma-block every fight, something is seriously wrong with your build.

Checkmath · July 2018

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?
Btw i wanted to hear, what would make tanking even more fun (if you already have fun

). What kind of mechanics like tactical placement on platforms, taking up bombs or what else. I wanted to hear, what YOU guys would love to see as a mechanic.

DocFrost72 · July 2018

The only good thing to come out of staff back bar was me switching to ice back bar when they capped off balance uptime. I love my back bar ice staff

umagon · July 2018

Guppet wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

I find pve tanking in eso boring mainly due to the taut and hold block mechanics. In another game I played tanks where power houses of agro and damage. Staying alive was more about maintaining the defensive skills up on the player’s attack rotation. In the game you could tank with a two hander weapon because of this. Which was the tank’s “dps” weapon. There were different stances, in defensive stance you can tank, but during parts of the fight if you knew what you where doing you could mid-fight flip to the offense stance and do damage. Also, with the two hander you could knock back groups enemies and charge enemies.

You would basically charge into a mass of enemies knock them down with the knock back then start the defense rotation which pulled a lot of hate. Once the dps engaged and your defense buffs were up you would flip over to dps mode for one or two combo rotations. This was really satisfying from an action combat standpoint because as a tank you were a raging tempest of destruction and crowd control. The only down side was tanks could not heal themselves, so mistakes would cost you.

Buffing the group was the healer’s role, and debuffs where dps’s role. Tanks where mostly crowd control. I wouldn’t expect eso to function exactly the same but tanking in that game was one the more funnier experiences I have had.

Did that game have PvP? Giving tanks huge damage does not work in any game with functional PvP or the tanks are unkillable gods.

Yes it had pvp. Pvp was the major selling point to the game. That class had counters in pvp; hard ones at that. One of the healer classes could dps and heal, but had lower armor. In pvp they would destroy that tank class because it could not heal. There was a dps class that would destroy that healer class, that tank class would mostly only kill dps classes because it was the hard counter to dps. Also, the caster classes could take down that tank class because it was melee only. Casters would get only get shredded if they made the mistake of staying close. And the offense stance in pvp made that tank class take a lot of damage. So, they could not be in it 100% of the time.

You would have to understand the game’s full mechanics, it sounds crazy but in pvp it was really balanced. What killed pvp in that game is when the devs started forcing vertical progression in pvp. So at one point everything shifted from being skilled based to having to chase after the latest gear set that came out.

Silver_Strider · July 2018

Guppet wrote: »

In no mmo game can a tank ever do decent single target dps while still being hard to kill. Any game that has any PvP has to follow this rule or they become kings in PvP.

WAR in FFXIV does damn good damage for a Tank class in FFXIV. The damage difference between top tier Warriors and DPS classes in that game is only about 1-2k difference.

As for the PvP in that game, it's horribly imbalanced with DRK Tanks being next to immortal gods due to their damage shield ability, The Blackest Night, covering them for 30% of their Max health and having a fairly short CD of 15 seconds, with their main combo returning the magic cost of the ability twice over and are still capable of cutting down DPS classes by doing decent damage and being tanky AF. You legit need at least 4 DPS to take down 1 DRK and that's before taking into account any healer keeping the DRK up.

Wifeaggro13 · July 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

Hey guys
Lately there was that discussion about tanks not liking to mainly being responsible for debuffing enemies/buffing the group. Tanks surely want to be useful in one way or another and I bet some tanks would get bored, if they only would have to taunt and hold the boss at one position. Players are differently experienced, so that one player may be very stressed by only taunting and surviving as a tank, meanwhile others play the buff ***, because there is just nothing else to do between taunting, evading damage and healing up.
So now for my question please just once forget about maximal dps of your group, about healing or the stable position of the boss. What kind of game or boss mechanics would make playing a tank exciting. Would you love to gather orbs or shards, which prevents you from being one-shotted? Would you like to have some tactical positioning of the boss, changes of fight places due to getting buffs or debuffs depending where the boss is placed? Maybe also constant change of places to even be able to do damage to the boss or preventing him from gaining additional mechanics when staying too long at one place? Or maybe some kind of task for the tanks like transporting an item from one place to another while tanking? It also could be sacrificing a lot of health for your group members by activating important synergies, which otherwise would kill your group when not activated (naturally it would kill everyone else but the tank when activating).
So what would make it more fun for YOU to play a tank?

Because the dev team clearly didn't understand tanking as a whole. There is no agro management, pulling mechanics mitigation abilities, no dynamics between tank and a true utility class like mezz,charm or lock down. All those mechanics were removed and a complete focus on dps meta.in short ranking was a dps with a taunt or a taunt with buffing,debuffing. Much was lost in the simplifaction,smaller groups,and a action based combat mechanic. Newer is not always better

BejaProphet · July 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?
Btw i wanted to hear, what would make tanking even more fun (if you already have fun ). What kind of mechanics like tactical placement on platforms, taking up bombs or what else. I wanted to hear, what YOU guys would love to see as a mechanic.

When I was first in vetBloodForge, I left thinking "what just happened?" Just by chance I didn't return until much much later in my tanking journey, at that point I knew more and was able to make sense of various mechanics better, but I still left thinking that particular dungeon is truly unique from a tanking perspective. And I think they touched on something there that has serious potential for tanking in this game.

When you normally fight a large trash group, there is one, maybe two mobs that are a real threat, and you need to keep taunts on them. But honestly that's the end of it, they require you to keep them taunted so the squishy's don't die, but for you they are no different than any other mob (if you are my kind of tanky tank). With most vet DLC its the same thing, only there is now a single attack that hits so hard that you have to make sure you block it.

With vet Bloodroot forge its feel is different. Those threats require your serious attention, imo. A mob is swinging an attack that can one-shot you if you don't block, but its more than that, after the attack is done its going to be a geyser that you have to stand on. And as you fight them you seriously have to deal with that mob. You don't just need to have his attention, he seriously has your attention. And the bosses in that zone felt similar.

So what I'm saying is, we need key tanking targets that no merely give a higher damage threshold than squishy people can take. We need mobs that are seriously engaging to tank throughout the zone. Creatures that are going to keep trying different approaches that we have to keep countering. Create tanking threats that would require our serious attention even if the rest of the fight wasn't happening. A threat that we can't afford to let loose on our group, and that we can't afford to just throw one taunt on then forget about them. Or merely throw the occasional block.

What if a mob tries to one shot us, then sees that isn't going to work, so he begins to summon a reinforcement wave of adds, which we have to stop, then when we stop that he....etc. The end result would be the feeling of a tank truly heroically facing off against a worthy opponent to buy his team the time to defeat the minions. That would be fun. That would attract people to tanking I think, because it would be rewarding to the one squaring off against those foes.

just my two cents.

Peekachu99 · July 2018

umagon wrote: »

I find pve tanking in eso boring mainly due to the taut and hold block mechanics. In another game I played tanks where power houses of agro and damage. Staying alive was more about maintaining the defensive skills up on the player’s attack rotation. In the game you could tank with a two hander weapon because of this. Which was the tank’s “dps” weapon. There were different stances, in defensive stance you can tank, but during parts of the fight if you knew what you where doing you could mid-fight flip to the offense stance and do damage. Also, with the two hander you could knock back groups enemies and charge enemies.

You would basically charge into a mass of enemies knock them down with the knock back then start the defense rotation which pulled a lot of hate. Once the dps engaged and your defense buffs were up you would flip over to dps mode for one or two combo rotations. This was really satisfying from an action combat standpoint because as a tank you were a raging tempest of destruction and crowd control. The only down side was tanks could not heal themselves, so mistakes would cost you.

Buffing the group was the healer’s role, and debuffs where dps’s role. Tanks where mostly crowd control. I wouldn’t expect eso to function exactly the same but tanking in that game was one the more funnier experiences I have had.

Block tanks have been dying a slow death since Morrowind in both PVP and PVE. Active tanking and blocking only the “big” hits is where the design has shifted to.

max_only · July 2018

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I play a DK main tank and, though I love the role, it is not very fun compared to my healer and dds. What would make playing my tank fun?

1. Mechanics that do not thwart my taunt. When a boss ignores my taunt I might as well go make a sandwich or log off because I feel useless at that point.

2. A ranged pull (like chains) that somehow does not hit the melee foe already held in my face but somehow cuts through and out to the ranged threat 20 meters away.

3. I would love taunts to last just a bit longer, say bump from 15 to 25 seconds.

4. I root that lasts more than a few seconds. Once I get mobs around me let me root them for 10+ seconds before I have to reapply.

I don't care about killing things, I just want to be happily standing in the dead center of a huge and tightly piled mass of corpses that my dd's killed because I kept the foes gathered up and focused on me.

All this and more

The one thing i loved about tanking in Tera was the cone of protection people got from standing behind me as a tank. Just by standing behind me, they got an armor increase because I was taking the full brunt of the attack. Also in WoW there was a bonus to damage for hitting the target in the back so turning the boss was even more important.

I found sap-tanking to be IMMENSELY fun, but of course they keep [snipp]ing on me and my fellow sap-tanks. First by ruining Siphoning Attacks and now by ruining the dodge cp star. Sap-tanking was Fun Fun Fun all day I loved it.

Valen_Byte · July 2018

Pay me and Ill tank anything, 10k from each player should do just fine.

Sophocles1 · July 2018

josiahva wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

The sets I’ve mentioned will give you plenty of stamina or magica. You also don’t really need all your stats in health. I don’t l know about trials, but for everything else you can go full Stam or full magica with your attributes and still hit 35k health when in your tank gear, which is all you need if your good with mechanics. You could put 10-20 in health just while your learning mechanics if you like a bit of a cushion.

As for anyone complaining about needing extra gear to do dps, you can’t be any sort of decent tank. I have 4 or 5 tanking sets that I can switch between, having different sets is part of being an effective tank. Add in being able to switch up monster sets depending on how you feel and you should have half full bags, just with tank gear. Adding in one dps set is nothing.

Yes, because everyone starts at CP1000, knows exactly how to make a competent hybrid build and knows how to play multiple roles while also having 350 skill points to put in 3 weapon skill lines without having done any quests before. -_-

You're still missing the point. Of course it's possible to have fancy hybrid setups and even a full on DPS setup on a char with tank CPs and attributes, but it is not a reasonable expectation to have for overland content, because that content is meant to be done by everyone starting at lvl3. If tanks can't comfortably do content meant for lvl3 players, something needs to be changed.

You missing the point when you are only a tank in groups. If you focus on tanking, your focusing on stuff hitting you while someone else kills it.

Obviously when solo it’s going to take longer to kill stuff, it’s like saying the grass is too green.

You can’t ask for dps on a build that’s made to out survive stuff. You can still complete all content it will just take longer.

It doesn't just take longer, it takes so long that you might as well go watch paint dry. I'm not asking for 40k DPS, but just enough to still have fun doing it. 2k DPS is not fun.

1. Put 0 points in health stats(I have 50k health on my imperial tank with 0 points in health). Use enchants on gear for health, mundus stones, etc.(put everything in stam)
2. Get a gear and skill changer add on if on PC(if on console you will just have to take a few minutes instead) and always carry a set of DPS gear
3. When you are doing solo/overland content swap gear and skills to DPS gear and DPS skills(I personally use Hundings rage and Spriggans with Bow/Dual Wield because I cant be bothered to farm something better for my tank)

Using this method I can pull a pretty easy 20-30k DPS(depending on whether I actually pay attention to my rotation) while doing solo stuff(can also swap to this gear on bosses where tanks are worthless). This requires no CP redistribution, no mundus stone changes...just a skill and gear change, and within a couple minutes(or seconds with an add-on) you can be back in tank-spec

How do you get 50 K health without any attributes in health? Very curious.

Jeremy · July 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

Hey guys
Lately there was that discussion about tanks not liking to mainly being responsible for debuffing enemies/buffing the group. Tanks surely want to be useful in one way or another and I bet some tanks would get bored, if they only would have to taunt and hold the boss at one position. Players are differently experienced, so that one player may be very stressed by only taunting and surviving as a tank, meanwhile others play the buff ***, because there is just nothing else to do between taunting, evading damage and healing up.
So now for my question please just once forget about maximal dps of your group, about healing or the stable position of the boss. What kind of game or boss mechanics would make playing a tank exciting. Would you love to gather orbs or shards, which prevents you from being one-shotted? Would you like to have some tactical positioning of the boss, changes of fight places due to getting buffs or debuffs depending where the boss is placed? Maybe also constant change of places to even be able to do damage to the boss or preventing him from gaining additional mechanics when staying too long at one place? Or maybe some kind of task for the tanks like transporting an item from one place to another while tanking? It also could be sacrificing a lot of health for your group members by activating important synergies, which otherwise would kill your group when not activated (naturally it would kill everyone else but the tank when activating).
So what would make it more fun for YOU to play a tank?

To be honest: I think playing as a "tank" is a lot more fun on this game than most. So I don't accept the premise of your thread. That being said - there is always room for improvement. But no offense, I don't like the ideas you are espousing here at all.

"Run around gathering orbs and shards to avoid being one-shotted" That sounds intolerably annoying to me, having to play a game of fetch during a boss fight to avoid being instant killed. This game has enough annoying and deadly mechanics (especially in DLC dungeons). It doesn't need any more. As far as "tactical positions" there are already red circles of death galore and millions of other "ground effects" a tank needs to be aware of. Really: what does it take to satisfy players who are on their never-ending quest to die on a video game? Maybe we should turn the game's dungeons into a giant game of twister where you have to put your left foot here and your right foot there or everyone instantly dies.

I'll never understand what people find so amusing about this kind of game play.

Your synergy idea (where you must sacrifice health to provide buffs to your group so they don't die - if I"m understanding you correctly) sounds alright. But really MMORGs generally just need to bring back the support class role and stop obsessing so much on DPS. That's what is ultimately to blame for a lack of strategy in combat. It's not a lack of "mechanics" in boss fights - which a lot of times already requires one to go "research" to even know what the hell is going on.

Jeremy · July 2018

Sophocles1 wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

The sets I’ve mentioned will give you plenty of stamina or magica. You also don’t really need all your stats in health. I don’t l know about trials, but for everything else you can go full Stam or full magica with your attributes and still hit 35k health when in your tank gear, which is all you need if your good with mechanics. You could put 10-20 in health just while your learning mechanics if you like a bit of a cushion.

As for anyone complaining about needing extra gear to do dps, you can’t be any sort of decent tank. I have 4 or 5 tanking sets that I can switch between, having different sets is part of being an effective tank. Add in being able to switch up monster sets depending on how you feel and you should have half full bags, just with tank gear. Adding in one dps set is nothing.

Yes, because everyone starts at CP1000, knows exactly how to make a competent hybrid build and knows how to play multiple roles while also having 350 skill points to put in 3 weapon skill lines without having done any quests before. -_-

You're still missing the point. Of course it's possible to have fancy hybrid setups and even a full on DPS setup on a char with tank CPs and attributes, but it is not a reasonable expectation to have for overland content, because that content is meant to be done by everyone starting at lvl3. If tanks can't comfortably do content meant for lvl3 players, something needs to be changed.

You missing the point when you are only a tank in groups. If you focus on tanking, your focusing on stuff hitting you while someone else kills it.

Obviously when solo it’s going to take longer to kill stuff, it’s like saying the grass is too green.

You can’t ask for dps on a build that’s made to out survive stuff. You can still complete all content it will just take longer.

It doesn't just take longer, it takes so long that you might as well go watch paint dry. I'm not asking for 40k DPS, but just enough to still have fun doing it. 2k DPS is not fun.

1. Put 0 points in health stats(I have 50k health on my imperial tank with 0 points in health). Use enchants on gear for health, mundus stones, etc.(put everything in stam)
2. Get a gear and skill changer add on if on PC(if on console you will just have to take a few minutes instead) and always carry a set of DPS gear
3. When you are doing solo/overland content swap gear and skills to DPS gear and DPS skills(I personally use Hundings rage and Spriggans with Bow/Dual Wield because I cant be bothered to farm something better for my tank)

Using this method I can pull a pretty easy 20-30k DPS(depending on whether I actually pay attention to my rotation) while doing solo stuff(can also swap to this gear on bosses where tanks are worthless). This requires no CP redistribution, no mundus stone changes...just a skill and gear change, and within a couple minutes(or seconds with an add-on) you can be back in tank-spec

How do you get 50 K health without any attributes in health? Very curious.

He's an imperial, so I'm sure that helps. They get a natural health boost.

aeowulf · July 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

Hey guys
Lately there was that discussion about tanks not liking to mainly being responsible for debuffing enemies/buffing the group. Tanks surely want to be useful in one way or another and I bet some tanks would get bored, if they only would have to taunt and hold the boss at one position. Players are differently experienced, so that one player may be very stressed by only taunting and surviving as a tank, meanwhile others play the buff ***, because there is just nothing else to do between taunting, evading damage and healing up.
So now for my question please just once forget about maximal dps of your group, about healing or the stable position of the boss. What kind of game or boss mechanics would make playing a tank exciting. Would you love to gather orbs or shards, which prevents you from being one-shotted? Would you like to have some tactical positioning of the boss, changes of fight places due to getting buffs or debuffs depending where the boss is placed? Maybe also constant change of places to even be able to do damage to the boss or preventing him from gaining additional mechanics when staying too long at one place? Or maybe some kind of task for the tanks like transporting an item from one place to another while tanking? It also could be sacrificing a lot of health for your group members by activating important synergies, which otherwise would kill your group when not activated (naturally it would kill everyone else but the tank when activating).
So what would make it more fun for YOU to play a tank?

Tons of really good answers in this thread, but will share my 2p none the less.

I used to play sap tank, this was probably the most fun role i've had in ESO. Pull up some youtube videos, is was fast, frantic, chaotic, and effective. It was different to DK, not better, just different. AND a lot of fun.

This was *removed* with Morrowind - that was NOT fun. Being asked to switch to DK if i wanted to continue tanking was also not fun, nor is 'having' to switch to NB DPS due to the class/role combo not being desired anymore. The psijic resource skill is not fun either... not when you look at it's resource return and it reminds you of the old SA, in fact it's even better. Feels like a bit of a kick in the face tbh.

To make it more fun, start with reverting the thing that changed to 'remove' the fun. This was pretty much all class based sustain changes that happened with Morrowind. They were heavily class-unbalanced, and some classes (my DK tank for example) actually had an increase in sustain from them. Some classes were pretty much completely removed from the tanking role (NB/Templar) because of this change.

Races should also not make such a big difference either. The sustain difference between Argonian and Nord/Imperial is just daft. Racial choice should not be an answer to a class issue.

Class balance in the tanking (and healing) role also needs to be sorted. For example (mentioning sustain again) some classes are very suited to tank-sustain (DK/Warden) and some aren't (Templar in particular, but also NB/Sorc.) Everything hinges on sustain.

Also, give us more control over the graphics, I want to see clearly when I need to block/interupt, and i want every thing else switched off. Without that, permanently-block is the safer & less fun option. I don't *want* to permanently block, but it's benefits go far beyond the immunity to cc & damage redux. One less thing to pay attention to.

usmcjdking · July 2018

Hey CM.

The issue I personally have with tanking is that endgame tanking is not fun because the sets are not fun. I have to 'self-nerf' in harder content to have fun as a tank (tanking Twins in PA/Alky for instance on an Orc Stam DK).

There are no tank sets that provide me or my team anything for going above and beyond what the role is designed to do at a minimum. Tanking in this game is rewarded more for minimum effort than MAXIMUM EFFORT. There are no sets that say "GOOD TANKS APPLY HERE", all tank sets are lazy as *** and require pathetic (button mash x every 10 seconds for massive armor debuff) or no skill (ebon, torugs) to use.

It's at a point where I literally will not raid and have fun with Ebon/Alky on my DK because I dislike that method of tanking so much I can't be bothered to do it anymore.

Jeremy · July 2018

aeowulf wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Hey guys
Lately there was that discussion about tanks not liking to mainly being responsible for debuffing enemies/buffing the group. Tanks surely want to be useful in one way or another and I bet some tanks would get bored, if they only would have to taunt and hold the boss at one position. Players are differently experienced, so that one player may be very stressed by only taunting and surviving as a tank, meanwhile others play the buff ***, because there is just nothing else to do between taunting, evading damage and healing up.
So now for my question please just once forget about maximal dps of your group, about healing or the stable position of the boss. What kind of game or boss mechanics would make playing a tank exciting. Would you love to gather orbs or shards, which prevents you from being one-shotted? Would you like to have some tactical positioning of the boss, changes of fight places due to getting buffs or debuffs depending where the boss is placed? Maybe also constant change of places to even be able to do damage to the boss or preventing him from gaining additional mechanics when staying too long at one place? Or maybe some kind of task for the tanks like transporting an item from one place to another while tanking? It also could be sacrificing a lot of health for your group members by activating important synergies, which otherwise would kill your group when not activated (naturally it would kill everyone else but the tank when activating).
So what would make it more fun for YOU to play a tank?

Tons of really good answers in this thread, but will share my 2p none the less.

I used to play sap tank, this was probably the most fun role i've had in ESO. Pull up some youtube videos, is was fast, frantic, chaotic, and effective. It was different to DK, not better, just different. AND a lot of fun.

This was *removed* with Morrowind - that was NOT fun. Being asked to switch to DK if i wanted to continue tanking was also not fun, nor is 'having' to switch to NB DPS due to the class/role combo not being desired anymore. The psijic resource skill is not fun either... not when you look at it's resource return and it reminds you of the old SA, in fact it's even better. Feels like a bit of a kick in the face tbh.

To make it more fun, start with reverting the thing that changed to 'remove' the fun. This was pretty much all class based sustain changes that happened with Morrowind. They were heavily class-unbalanced, and some classes (my DK tank for example) actually had an increase in sustain from them. Some classes were pretty much completely removed from the tanking role (NB/Templar) because of this change.

Races should also not make such a big difference either. The sustain difference between Argonian and Nord/Imperial is just daft. Racial choice should not be an answer to a class issue.

Class balance in the tanking (and healing) role also needs to be sorted. For example (mentioning sustain again) some classes are very suited to tank-sustain (DK/Warden) and some aren't (Templar in particular, but also NB/Sorc.) Everything hinges on sustain.

Also, give us more control over the graphics, I want to see clearly when I need to block/interupt, and i want every thing else switched off. Without that, permanently-block is the safer & less fun option. I don't *want* to permanently block, but it's benefits go far beyond the immunity to cc & damage redux. One less thing to pay attention to.

This. Thank you so much for bringing this up.

With all the graphical effects, flashes, bright lights, fires, meteors (and that giant walking alligator thing that literally pops right on top of you so you can't see sh__" it's almost impossible to recognize boss animations to know when to block. One dungeon run I literally spend the entire time just trying to adjust my camera so I could see what it was I was trying to fight.

So I would say this is probably the most pressing issue right now for tanks on the game. Give us an option to hide the spell effects of other players. Or at least reduce them significantly so tanks can actually see what it is they are suppose to be tanking.

tinythinker · July 2018

Tavine wrote: »

Well first I personally think ESO is going the right way if you compare the static fights of the past to the movement based combat we have in Cloudrest right now. As a tank or an offtank I might want some more diverse responsibilities in a raid. I know this game is quite old from an Elder Scrolls perspective, and way more static, but SWTOR offered a vast variety for tanks in their raid "Dread Palace". All of the following examples are based on the videolink as follows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1918&v=eR-O4IXNrk0

For instance take the first Encounter (4:00 min) basic tank swap mechanic (building of stacks) / take care of adds
Second Encounter (13:00 min) positioning at its best. Boss is never allowed to look at group while floor vanishes
Third Encounter (23:00 min) Apart from the positiong - tanks have to communicate which crystal to destroy (similar to Mazzatun final boss sight)
Fourth Encounter (32:00 min) Tanks, Healers and DPS get seperated (tanks have to survive a boss for 30 sec, Healers have to keep an innocent npc alive, dps have to kill an npc - all in 30 sec)

As a tank I like to have my responsibilities but if you take Asylum or Cloudrest from the perspective of an offtank it is always only a taunt - stack and wait for the dps to do their job. The perspective of a maintank is even more boring. Taunt - evade red circles, triangles or whatever and run.

I hope this helps that we get a more diverse tank challenge in future raids.

I've seen the same (and similarly imaginative mechanics) in FFXIV and WOW as well. Would be interesting to see how they would translate into a game where classes don't have dedicated roles.

aeowulf · July 2018

Also fix the performance in general please, or give us the power to do so. (Not so much tanks only but...)

ESO used to be epic, and performance was really good. Now the same computer that used to run two instances of ESO at the same time for us (virtual machine trickery) can barely manage one. PVP battles were huge, I can remember literally hundreds of people on each side outside keeps. Sieges are comparatively tiny these days. The game was fluid, OK not quite as pretty, but I'd rather have fluid and immersive than overly pretty+occasional 'locks.' Whilst this if more for all, it really affects tanks quite badly - miss a mechanic as a tank due to it and it can be a group wipe. Not fun...

What happened?

SanSan · July 2018

Have the same system as FFXIV. I would play tank and healer but no way in hell am i making another character and doing things all over again.

inthecoconut · July 2018

I personally feel that tanking is way more enjoyable than playing the role of damage.

Woeler · July 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

TheInfernalRage · July 2018

Huyen wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

1. Enough damage to do solo content without dying of old age (~10k DPS with a full tank setup would be enough, buff the Low Slash by adding a DoT and the Power Slam morph of Power Bash, since nobody would use it in PvP anyways, for example by scaling it with max. HP and making it proc similarly to Crystal Frags when blocking, resulting in the next cast of it being free), because expecting just this one role to carry around an additional set of gear just to be able to do the easiest content in the game is unreasonable. And if anyone thinks it's unbalanced, I can link you a video from WOW from back in MOP days when I used to play it, where both of our tanks do 1/2 the damage of the top DD in a progression run. Then you can also take a look at the Brawler or Warrior classes in Tera, both of whom do considerable amounts of damage while being fully capable tanks.

2. Tanking is the more fun the less I have to rely on the healer to do my job. I like surviving big (or many) hits without shouting for shards or heals. That's why I like to build for survival and sustain. I loved it when we did vHRC hm with our guild, and after I was told by the guy who had done it before to equip selfish survival gear, the OT asked whether I even need Guard, because I could survive for quite a while even when we were about to wipe and the healers were dead. Another example is off-tanking adds in vSO on Ozara. While that fight by itself has quite annoying mechanics (the damn troll doesn't want to move), it is rewarding when I can last through it without healers even so much as looking in my direction in my cozy corner. In other words, I like it when I can allow the group to focus on something other than keeping me alive.

3. Bonus point: Being able to bar swap without dropping block. Sometimes I have utility on my back bar that I would like to use, but I can't because I have 7 axes in vAA beating on me.

Also, I don't find it boring if I don't have to smash buttons all the time like a mad man, there is more to a fight than that. But I would welcome it if tanks could also do non-negligible amounts of damage while tanking. It could be that one thing to do for those who do find it boring when they aren't smashing buttons all the time.

TL;DR:
1. More DPS to be able to do solo content, and possibly as that "something" to do between taunting bosses/adds, healing and holding block.
2. Mechanics or design that makes groups welcome tanks with "selfish" builds, for example ones that send us on mini solo missions that test our survival, and make the job for the rest of the group the easier the longer we can keep it up.

Couldnt agree more about the dps part. I do love my warden tank (finally something Im good at) but solo questing is so horrible I actually started leveling a stamplar for solo purposes only....

All my tanks have a questing gear setup. I just switch to that. Not as good as a damage dealer, but it's way better than using my tank setup to do questing.

ZeroXFF · July 2018

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

That's not really true. In the guild I usually raid with the hardest trial we completed was vMoL (non-hm), and I'm running with alkosh constantly unless the fight demands more survival (vHRC hm/vCR gryphons).

When I joined that guild, I didn't even have a proper DK tank, I did the first few trial runs with my magplar. And in the very first trial we did together (vAA) I was told to get ebon because people were dying on Varlariel when just 1 add was up. So there goes my Vampire Cloak set that worked so well with me trying to be a heal/mitigation tank. And thinking ahead about trials we would do as we progress, I just decided to level a DK at that point, because there is no way I could tank with alkosh on a magplar, especially since ebon was already a handicap for my build (more HP, but less effective HP due to loss of mitigation and weaker heals).

So no, it does not affect just the 1%. I still am not the 1%. But back when I so naively started doing vet trials with my magplar I sure as hell wasn't, and still I was told in the very first one to go get ebon, and that by a guild with nords for DDs and khajiits for healers. I wasn't asked to use alkosh, that's true, but at that point I just decided to do what had to be done rather than what's the most fun for me to use, because if I didn't, I might very well have been made an OT or even asked to main a DD later on when we started optimizing, because I would have been the only tank in our guild not using it.

Shantu · July 2018

I run a templar tank with Torug's, Plague Doctor's, and Swarm Mothers, and have a blast. If I could ask one thing is that a range taunt like Inner Rage would less costly and a little more spammable. It gets a little boring running around trying to aggro some of those trash mobs spread over larger areas. But going head to head with a boss, I wouldn't change a thing.

SquareSausage · July 2018

Guppet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

The sets I’ve mentioned will give you plenty of stamina or magica. You also don’t really need all your stats in health. I don’t l know about trials, but for everything else you can go full Stam or full magica with your attributes and still hit 35k health when in your tank gear, which is all you need if your good with mechanics. You could put 10-20 in health just while your learning mechanics if you like a bit of a cushion.

As for anyone complaining about needing extra gear to do dps, you can’t be any sort of decent tank. I have 4 or 5 tanking sets that I can switch between, having different sets is part of being an effective tank. Add in being able to switch up monster sets depending on how you feel and you should have half full bags, just with tank gear. Adding in one dps set is nothing.

Yes, because everyone starts at CP1000, knows exactly how to make a competent hybrid build and knows how to play multiple roles while also having 350 skill points to put in 3 weapon skill lines without having done any quests before. -_-

You're still missing the point. Of course it's possible to have fancy hybrid setups and even a full on DPS setup on a char with tank CPs and attributes, but it is not a reasonable expectation to have for overland content, because that content is meant to be done by everyone starting at lvl3. If tanks can't comfortably do content meant for lvl3 players, something needs to be changed.

You missing the point when you are only a tank in groups. If you focus on tanking, your focusing on stuff hitting you while someone else kills it.

Obviously when solo it’s going to take longer to kill stuff, it’s like saying the grass is too green.

You can’t ask for dps on a build that’s made to out survive stuff. You can still complete all content it will just take longer.

Not worth arguing here mate this chat has taken up the vast majority of the Tank Rep in combat character mechanics forum.

No matter how often they are told you can't spec purely into survival and expect to kill things fast the same response is it's not fair I need to change sets or skills to do different content. Maybe they don't have ESO plus and don't know how to upgrade their bags so have no room for other gear

webrgesner · July 2018

Honestly i would love to make a super ult regen build with 3 infused potion cooldown glyph
Argonian DK Ulti + Potions regen = Sustain