What would make playing a tank fun?

Troneon

AOE Taunt or multiple target taunt.

Ability to help group with more damage then just debuffing enemies/synergies or buffing allies.

Something unique that only tanks can bring to the table. Maybe a new group mechanic.

I like trying out tanking but it does get boring after a while as there is not much going on, even in trials.

max_only

Other than my previous comments in this thread (mechanics that make having a taunt useless etc) I want to say I don’t think tanking is boring, I think Dragonknights are boring. I have a blast tanking on my Warden now and I was having a blast tanking on my saptank before Morrowind and the change to Siphoning Attacks. I’m making a stamplar tank too just to see what it is because templars are underwater right now but I have a feeling they’ll rise to the top in due time.

Troneon

max_only wrote: »

because templars are underwater right now but I have a feeling they’ll rise to the top in due time.

Templars rising to top.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

max_only

Troneon wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

because templars are underwater right now but I have a feeling they’ll rise to the top in due time.

Templars rising to top.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

Laugh all you want but there are diehard paladin fans in the game industry who will champion Templar tanks to their dying breath. As long as those weevils exist with their tenacious paladin fetish, the tables will turn in templars favor.

ZeroXFF

SquareSausage wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

The sets I’ve mentioned will give you plenty of stamina or magica. You also don’t really need all your stats in health. I don’t l know about trials, but for everything else you can go full Stam or full magica with your attributes and still hit 35k health when in your tank gear, which is all you need if your good with mechanics. You could put 10-20 in health just while your learning mechanics if you like a bit of a cushion.

As for anyone complaining about needing extra gear to do dps, you can’t be any sort of decent tank. I have 4 or 5 tanking sets that I can switch between, having different sets is part of being an effective tank. Add in being able to switch up monster sets depending on how you feel and you should have half full bags, just with tank gear. Adding in one dps set is nothing.

Yes, because everyone starts at CP1000, knows exactly how to make a competent hybrid build and knows how to play multiple roles while also having 350 skill points to put in 3 weapon skill lines without having done any quests before. -_-

You're still missing the point. Of course it's possible to have fancy hybrid setups and even a full on DPS setup on a char with tank CPs and attributes, but it is not a reasonable expectation to have for overland content, because that content is meant to be done by everyone starting at lvl3. If tanks can't comfortably do content meant for lvl3 players, something needs to be changed.

You missing the point when you are only a tank in groups. If you focus on tanking, your focusing on stuff hitting you while someone else kills it.

Obviously when solo it’s going to take longer to kill stuff, it’s like saying the grass is too green.

You can’t ask for dps on a build that’s made to out survive stuff. You can still complete all content it will just take longer.

Not worth arguing here mate this chat has taken up the vast majority of the Tank Rep in combat character mechanics forum.

No matter how often they are told you can't spec purely into survival and expect to kill things fast the same response is it's not fair I need to change sets or skills to do different content. Maybe they don't have ESO plus and don't know how to upgrade their bags so have no room for other gear

Yeah, that's because it is unfair when a healer using 100% healing gear can do 5-10x the damage of a tank using 100% tank gear, and 2x the damage of a tank wearing a hybrid setup. And you are again ignoring the argument about low lvl players, because in the eyes of everyone expecting people to use different sets and different weapons everyone apparently starts with CP1000, 350 skill points and a maxed crafter or unlimited gold. If you guys weren't trying so hard to kill fun, I wouldn't have to argue with you so much, but it seems that you don't like fun, so that's why you're fighting against it in a thread that is literally about it.

And don't tell me it's "more fun" for you when you need half a minute to kill a mudcrab, because in that case you're either lying or a masochist. If it's the latter, I won't judge, but don't impose your kinks on everyone else.

Guppet

max_only wrote: »

Other than my previous comments in this thread (mechanics that make having a taunt useless etc) I want to say I don’t think tanking is boring, I think Dragonknights are boring. I have a blast tanking on my Warden now and I was having a blast tanking on my saptank before Morrowind and the change to Siphoning Attacks. I’m making a stamplar tank too just to see what it is because templars are underwater right now but I have a feeling they’ll rise to the top in due time.

That is so true. Love tanking on my NB even now. Miss my shades if I’m not on it.

Made a DK as it’s the one that’s supposedly best, got it to max level via tanking dungeons from 10-50, found it boring as hell.

Tanked on my Templar too, it’s quite fun with infernal guardian monster set, but other than that it’s also a wee bit boring.

Currently levelling a warden from level 10 as a tank, seems nice so far.

Feels like the only differences these days are flavour and passives.

DaveMoeDee

Troneon wrote: »

AOE Taunt or multiple target taunt.

Ability to help group with more damage then just debuffing enemies/synergies or buffing allies.

Something unique that only tanks can bring to the table. Maybe a new group mechanic.

I like trying out tanking but it does get boring after a while as there is not much going on, even in trials.

Wouldn't AOE taunt make tanking more boring? Right now, figuring out how to handle adds is what keeps tanking active, especially with weaker group members. I don't see how doing damage makes it any more interesting.

I don't really DPS, but that seems pretty boring on a lot of bosses if a tank is stacking all the adds. They are just pushing buttons for a set rotation to drop damage on stationary targets. I am figuring out how to efficiently stack adds so damage on the boss can continue while clearly them out.

Maybe I need to spend more time on my DPS characters to understand why people think DD is a more interesting role to fill in group content.

Edit: to be fair, there are a lot of base game vet dungeons where tanking is pretty dull because I can just stand next to the boss with impunity while spamming ults and orbs. But aren't DPS just standing where they are spamming damage skills?

Woeler

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

That's not really true. In the guild I usually raid with the hardest trial we completed was vMoL (non-hm), and I'm running with alkosh constantly unless the fight demands more survival (vHRC hm/vCR gryphons).

When I joined that guild, I didn't even have a proper DK tank, I did the first few trial runs with my magplar. And in the very first trial we did together (vAA) I was told to get ebon because people were dying on Varlariel when just 1 add was up. So there goes my Vampire Cloak set that worked so well with me trying to be a heal/mitigation tank. And thinking ahead about trials we would do as we progress, I just decided to level a DK at that point, because there is no way I could tank with alkosh on a magplar, especially since ebon was already a handicap for my build (more HP, but less effective HP due to loss of mitigation and weaker heals).

So no, it does not affect just the 1%. I still am not the 1%. But back when I so naively started doing vet trials with my magplar I sure as hell wasn't, and still I was told in the very first one to go get ebon, and that by a guild with nords for DDs and khajiits for healers. I wasn't asked to use alkosh, that's true, but at that point I just decided to do what had to be done rather than what's the most fun for me to use, because if I didn't, I might very well have been made an OT or even asked to main a DD later on when we started optimizing, because I would have been the only tank in our guild not using it.

You completely missed the point of the post and instead decided to argue that 1% should maybe be 5%.

Sophocles1

Hmmm... I guess for me the real value is the role playing aspect. Maybe this will wear off, and maybe it sounds stupid, but I like being the person that sacrifices well-being To keep People safe. Being DPS makes me feel like a aggressive bad *ss And playing to tank makes me feel like a hero.

DaveMoeDee

I've seen a few comments about just having to occasionally block. Considering how many times I've pugged vet dungeons with no one running any skills that give back resources, I appreciate having the time to get in some heavy attacks while tanking. Can't heavy attack while blocking.

Jeremy wrote: »

...
But really MMORGs generally just need to bring back the support class role and stop obsessing so much on DPS. That's what is ultimately to blame for a lack of strategy in combat. It's not a lack of "mechanics" in boss fights - which a lot of times already requires one to go "research" to even know what the hell is going on.

What do you think caused that change? More players who want a simplified gameplay where they just hit things and don't have to do math to decide best buffs? Or more random groups were people want to do their thing and not just support others? Dual PvE and PvP usage? My tank does the expected buffs and debuffs, but it is because I read that I should do it. Personally, I don't have the patience to figure gear out on my own.

Shantu wrote: »

I run a templar tank with Torug's, Plague Doctor's, and Swarm Mothers, and have a blast. If I could ask one thing is that a range taunt like Inner Rage would less costly and a little more spammable. It gets a little boring running around trying to aggro some of those trash mobs spread over larger areas. But going head to head with a boss, I wouldn't change a thing.

I kinda like the challenge of having to decide what to prioritize for taunting. And then I can drop talons on lesser mobs if other group members lead them to me. Making taunting cheaper and easier will decrease the need for coordination.

Jeremy wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Hey guys
Lately there was that discussion about tanks not liking to mainly being responsible for debuffing enemies/buffing the group. Tanks surely want to be useful in one way or another and I bet some tanks would get bored, if they only would have to taunt and hold the boss at one position. Players are differently experienced, so that one player may be very stressed by only taunting and surviving as a tank, meanwhile others play the buff ***, because there is just nothing else to do between taunting, evading damage and healing up.
So now for my question please just once forget about maximal dps of your group, about healing or the stable position of the boss. What kind of game or boss mechanics would make playing a tank exciting. Would you love to gather orbs or shards, which prevents you from being one-shotted? Would you like to have some tactical positioning of the boss, changes of fight places due to getting buffs or debuffs depending where the boss is placed? Maybe also constant change of places to even be able to do damage to the boss or preventing him from gaining additional mechanics when staying too long at one place? Or maybe some kind of task for the tanks like transporting an item from one place to another while tanking? It also could be sacrificing a lot of health for your group members by activating important synergies, which otherwise would kill your group when not activated (naturally it would kill everyone else but the tank when activating).
So what would make it more fun for YOU to play a tank?

Tons of really good answers in this thread, but will share my 2p none the less.

I used to play sap tank, this was probably the most fun role i've had in ESO. Pull up some youtube videos, is was fast, frantic, chaotic, and effective. It was different to DK, not better, just different. AND a lot of fun.

This was *removed* with Morrowind - that was NOT fun. Being asked to switch to DK if i wanted to continue tanking was also not fun, nor is 'having' to switch to NB DPS due to the class/role combo not being desired anymore. The psijic resource skill is not fun either... not when you look at it's resource return and it reminds you of the old SA, in fact it's even better. Feels like a bit of a kick in the face tbh.

To make it more fun, start with reverting the thing that changed to 'remove' the fun. This was pretty much all class based sustain changes that happened with Morrowind. They were heavily class-unbalanced, and some classes (my DK tank for example) actually had an increase in sustain from them. Some classes were pretty much completely removed from the tanking role (NB/Templar) because of this change.

Races should also not make such a big difference either. The sustain difference between Argonian and Nord/Imperial is just daft. Racial choice should not be an answer to a class issue.

Class balance in the tanking (and healing) role also needs to be sorted. For example (mentioning sustain again) some classes are very suited to tank-sustain (DK/Warden) and some aren't (Templar in particular, but also NB/Sorc.) Everything hinges on sustain.

Also, give us more control over the graphics, I want to see clearly when I need to block/interupt, and i want every thing else switched off. Without that, permanently-block is the safer & less fun option. I don't *want* to permanently block, but it's benefits go far beyond the immunity to cc & damage redux. One less thing to pay attention to.

This. Thank you so much for bringing this up.

With all the graphical effects, flashes, bright lights, fires, meteors (and that giant walking alligator thing that literally pops right on top of you so you can't see sh__" it's almost impossible to recognize boss animations to know when to block. One dungeon run I literally spend the entire time just trying to adjust my camera so I could see what it was I was trying to fight.

So I would say this is probably the most pressing issue right now for tanks on the game. Give us an option to hide the spell effects of other players. Or at least reduce them significantly so tanks can actually see what it is they are suppose to be tanking.

And get rid of the trees in dungeons! So annoying to lose sight of a boss because my entire monitor is filled with branches.

BejaProphet wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?
Btw i wanted to hear, what would make tanking even more fun (if you already have fun ). What kind of mechanics like tactical placement on platforms, taking up bombs or what else. I wanted to hear, what YOU guys would love to see as a mechanic.

When I was first in vetBloodForge, I left thinking "what just happened?" Just by chance I didn't return until much much later in my tanking journey, at that point I knew more and was able to make sense of various mechanics better, but I still left thinking that particular dungeon is truly unique from a tanking perspective. And I think they touched on something there that has serious potential for tanking in this game.

When you normally fight a large trash group, there is one, maybe two mobs that are a real threat, and you need to keep taunts on them. But honestly that's the end of it, they require you to keep them taunted so the squishy's don't die, but for you they are no different than any other mob (if you are my kind of tanky tank). With most vet DLC its the same thing, only there is now a single attack that hits so hard that you have to make sure you block it....

I was surprised doing the vBF pledge earlier that my tank got consistently one-shotted by a mob. Made me take seriously blocking mobs.

I also had to change my tanking strategy on the final boss. I had to stop doing so much and just stay alive while maintaining enough resources for taunts because we were wiping due to people needing to rez me when I would run out of resources and fail to block. That meant no orbs and Magma Shell instead of warhorns, but better a slow clear than another wipe. Maybe as I get more comfortable with those bosses I can return to doing more support.

Plugging holes with your butt seems to be a popular mechanic for ZOS these days in DLC dungeons.

Bodži

Here is a view from perspective of a CP500ish imperial warden tank that is a ok/mediocre and have never done any trial so far.

There was already a comment about positioning the boss in a certain way - this would be fun to give some buff to group or negative effect on boss.

Maybe extend/replace mentioned mechanics with the following: three successful interrupts or three successful heavy attack blocks in a row would give some boost to group or big DPS boost to tank for a certain period of time.

I haven't been much in PVP but this would also prevent tanks from being unkillable in PVP and still get DPS boost in PVE boss fights. Or there is a flaw in my logic?

ZeroXFF

Woeler wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

That's not really true. In the guild I usually raid with the hardest trial we completed was vMoL (non-hm), and I'm running with alkosh constantly unless the fight demands more survival (vHRC hm/vCR gryphons).

When I joined that guild, I didn't even have a proper DK tank, I did the first few trial runs with my magplar. And in the very first trial we did together (vAA) I was told to get ebon because people were dying on Varlariel when just 1 add was up. So there goes my Vampire Cloak set that worked so well with me trying to be a heal/mitigation tank. And thinking ahead about trials we would do as we progress, I just decided to level a DK at that point, because there is no way I could tank with alkosh on a magplar, especially since ebon was already a handicap for my build (more HP, but less effective HP due to loss of mitigation and weaker heals).

So no, it does not affect just the 1%. I still am not the 1%. But back when I so naively started doing vet trials with my magplar I sure as hell wasn't, and still I was told in the very first one to go get ebon, and that by a guild with nords for DDs and khajiits for healers. I wasn't asked to use alkosh, that's true, but at that point I just decided to do what had to be done rather than what's the most fun for me to use, because if I didn't, I might very well have been made an OT or even asked to main a DD later on when we started optimizing, because I would have been the only tank in our guild not using it.

You completely missed the point of the post and instead decided to argue that 1% should maybe be 5%.

How am I missing the point if I turned "<1% of the player base if not even less" into 5% with my story? You could still argue that 5% is not significant enough, but it's harder to dismiss than <1%. Add to those 5% the people who copy tank builds from arbitrary guides online and then are not having fun, because those builds are only useable by the very same 0.1%-ers who make them, and we have ourselves a sizeable portion of the tank population that is affected by the lack of gear options trial groups find acceptable.

I actually saw quite a few people who just copied some guide, ended up with something like 20k resistances and 35k HP and were wondering, why they can't tank as well as I do, even though my build is nothing like the guide that claimed that that setup was supposedly "the best" for trials. For example I told a guildie who couldn't tank vet DLC dungeons before to use heavy Chudan instead of light+medium Blood Spawn, use 8p sturdy gear, use the 1hs ulti for regen and put some points in Heavy Armor Focus (all 4 things dismissed as "training wheels" or "unnecessary" by the "pros"), and once he made the switch, he can't stop going on about how he actually enjoys tanking now. We did vBF after, and he actually told me that the last boss was easy.

So as you see, if tanks weren't expected to use specific gear or skills to turn themselves into buff bots, it would also help those who are stuck between non-DLC and DLC vets needing help to advance, and that is probably already covering at least 20% of tanks and not just 5%.

EDIT:
And then there are also all the non-DK/Warden tanks who could be very viable if they could drop Alkosh and War Horn for something that actually helps them.

Doctordarkspawn

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

Honestly, easier would be a plus given the sheer insanity of some vet ***.

Guppet

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

That's not really true. In the guild I usually raid with the hardest trial we completed was vMoL (non-hm), and I'm running with alkosh constantly unless the fight demands more survival (vHRC hm/vCR gryphons).

When I joined that guild, I didn't even have a proper DK tank, I did the first few trial runs with my magplar. And in the very first trial we did together (vAA) I was told to get ebon because people were dying on Varlariel when just 1 add was up. So there goes my Vampire Cloak set that worked so well with me trying to be a heal/mitigation tank. And thinking ahead about trials we would do as we progress, I just decided to level a DK at that point, because there is no way I could tank with alkosh on a magplar, especially since ebon was already a handicap for my build (more HP, but less effective HP due to loss of mitigation and weaker heals).

So no, it does not affect just the 1%. I still am not the 1%. But back when I so naively started doing vet trials with my magplar I sure as hell wasn't, and still I was told in the very first one to go get ebon, and that by a guild with nords for DDs and khajiits for healers. I wasn't asked to use alkosh, that's true, but at that point I just decided to do what had to be done rather than what's the most fun for me to use, because if I didn't, I might very well have been made an OT or even asked to main a DD later on when we started optimizing, because I would have been the only tank in our guild not using it.

You completely missed the point of the post and instead decided to argue that 1% should maybe be 5%.

How am I missing the point if I turned "<1% of the player base if not even less" into 5% with my story? You could still argue that 5% is not significant enough, but it's harder to dismiss than <1%. Add to those 5% the people who copy tank builds from arbitrary guides online and then are not having fun, because those builds are only useable by the very same 0.1%-ers who make them, and we have ourselves a sizeable portion of the tank population that is affected by the lack of gear options trial groups find acceptable.

I actually saw quite a few people who just copied some guide, ended up with something like 20k resistances and 35k HP and were wondering, why they can't tank as well as I do, even though my build is nothing like the guide that claimed that that setup was supposedly "the best" for trials. For example I told a guildie who couldn't tank vet DLC dungeons before to use heavy Chudan instead of light+medium Blood Spawn, use 8p sturdy gear, use the 1hs ulti for regen and put some points in Heavy Armor Focus (all 4 things dismissed as "training wheels" or "unnecessary" by the "pros"), and once he made the switch, he can't stop going on about how he actually enjoys tanking now. We did vBF after, and he actually told me that the last boss was easy.

So as you see, if tanks weren't expected to use specific gear or skills to turn themselves into buff bots, it would also help those who are stuck between non-DLC and DLC vets needing help to advance, and that is probably already covering at least 20% of tanks and not just 5%.

EDIT:
And then there are also all the non-DK/Warden tanks who could be very viable if they could drop Alkosh and War Horn for something that actually helps them.

This is a massive issue. The BIS build and sets are really for players that know the role and dungeons inside out. They are optimum assuming almost perfect execution.

The issue is ego. Most plays think that’s for the best players, well that’s me. The sad reality is that it’s not. It’s like playing a game on nightmare before you’ve cleared normal and saying this is no fun.

BIS doesn’t have margins for error because they assume you don’t make errors.

Non BIS can have margin for error and that margin won’t stop your group doing anything other than competing in leaderboards oh and it will be far more fun.

ZeroXFF

Guppet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

That's not really true. In the guild I usually raid with the hardest trial we completed was vMoL (non-hm), and I'm running with alkosh constantly unless the fight demands more survival (vHRC hm/vCR gryphons).

When I joined that guild, I didn't even have a proper DK tank, I did the first few trial runs with my magplar. And in the very first trial we did together (vAA) I was told to get ebon because people were dying on Varlariel when just 1 add was up. So there goes my Vampire Cloak set that worked so well with me trying to be a heal/mitigation tank. And thinking ahead about trials we would do as we progress, I just decided to level a DK at that point, because there is no way I could tank with alkosh on a magplar, especially since ebon was already a handicap for my build (more HP, but less effective HP due to loss of mitigation and weaker heals).

So no, it does not affect just the 1%. I still am not the 1%. But back when I so naively started doing vet trials with my magplar I sure as hell wasn't, and still I was told in the very first one to go get ebon, and that by a guild with nords for DDs and khajiits for healers. I wasn't asked to use alkosh, that's true, but at that point I just decided to do what had to be done rather than what's the most fun for me to use, because if I didn't, I might very well have been made an OT or even asked to main a DD later on when we started optimizing, because I would have been the only tank in our guild not using it.

You completely missed the point of the post and instead decided to argue that 1% should maybe be 5%.

How am I missing the point if I turned "<1% of the player base if not even less" into 5% with my story? You could still argue that 5% is not significant enough, but it's harder to dismiss than <1%. Add to those 5% the people who copy tank builds from arbitrary guides online and then are not having fun, because those builds are only useable by the very same 0.1%-ers who make them, and we have ourselves a sizeable portion of the tank population that is affected by the lack of gear options trial groups find acceptable.

I actually saw quite a few people who just copied some guide, ended up with something like 20k resistances and 35k HP and were wondering, why they can't tank as well as I do, even though my build is nothing like the guide that claimed that that setup was supposedly "the best" for trials. For example I told a guildie who couldn't tank vet DLC dungeons before to use heavy Chudan instead of light+medium Blood Spawn, use 8p sturdy gear, use the 1hs ulti for regen and put some points in Heavy Armor Focus (all 4 things dismissed as "training wheels" or "unnecessary" by the "pros"), and once he made the switch, he can't stop going on about how he actually enjoys tanking now. We did vBF after, and he actually told me that the last boss was easy.

So as you see, if tanks weren't expected to use specific gear or skills to turn themselves into buff bots, it would also help those who are stuck between non-DLC and DLC vets needing help to advance, and that is probably already covering at least 20% of tanks and not just 5%.

EDIT:
And then there are also all the non-DK/Warden tanks who could be very viable if they could drop Alkosh and War Horn for something that actually helps them.

This is a massive issue. The BIS build and sets are really for players that know the role and dungeons inside out. They are optimum assuming almost perfect execution.

The issue is ego. Most plays think that’s for the best players, well that’s me. The sad reality is that it’s not. It’s like playing a game on nightmare before you’ve cleared normal and saying this is no fun.

BIS doesn’t have margins for error because they assume you don’t make errors.

Non BIS can have margin for error and that margin won’t stop your group doing anything other than competing in leaderboards oh and it will be far more fun.

Well, those guides usually don't say "don't use it until you know the fights like the back of your hand, your own execution is perfect down to a fraction of a second and you have a group that works like a well oiled machine". The guides say "this is the best build because (list of advantages)", while entirely leaving out the part saying "you can't survive (list of mechanics) if your healer isn't there to save your *** the very second you get hit" or "normally people block this, but you will have to dodge roll on this one because my build here is actually not for tanks, but for DD buff bots LARPing as tanks" (yeye, i'm being facetious, don't get your panties in a twist). And so some people just copy it assuming it's the best possible build without questioning anything.

Sure, there are some ego issues with some people, and some guides actually do suggest alternatives, but I think that a lot of people just don't have the experience to know the implications of using the gear recommended in the guides they gloss over.

Wifeaggro13

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

That's not really true. In the guild I usually raid with the hardest trial we completed was vMoL (non-hm), and I'm running with alkosh constantly unless the fight demands more survival (vHRC hm/vCR gryphons).

When I joined that guild, I didn't even have a proper DK tank, I did the first few trial runs with my magplar. And in the very first trial we did together (vAA) I was told to get ebon because people were dying on Varlariel when just 1 add was up. So there goes my Vampire Cloak set that worked so well with me trying to be a heal/mitigation tank. And thinking ahead about trials we would do as we progress, I just decided to level a DK at that point, because there is no way I could tank with alkosh on a magplar, especially since ebon was already a handicap for my build (more HP, but less effective HP due to loss of mitigation and weaker heals).

So no, it does not affect just the 1%. I still am not the 1%. But back when I so naively started doing vet trials with my magplar I sure as hell wasn't, and still I was told in the very first one to go get ebon, and that by a guild with nords for DDs and khajiits for healers. I wasn't asked to use alkosh, that's true, but at that point I just decided to do what had to be done rather than what's the most fun for me to use, because if I didn't, I might very well have been made an OT or even asked to main a DD later on when we started optimizing, because I would have been the only tank in our guild not using it.

Woeler runs with the top of the echelon in DPS so his experience maybe different than the vast majority when gearing for content. DPS is the primary mechanic in ESO group content and end game. most things can be ignored with DPS so his flexibility in sets in survivability vs utility or added dps . Tanking in eso was an after thought i had fun with launch content VCOS VMAZZ VICP that content was a blast as tank and the trials up until MOL. But the last two years have not been kind to people who enjoy MMO end game dynamics.

inthecoconut

I think what I really want most, is a loadout option. Let me save my armor sets, skill bars, CP, etc, and then let me click a button to swap to a different loadout.

Stinkyremy

EvilCroc wrote: »

AOE taunt.

This would just make everything perfect, AOE taunt, but it doesn't breach/fracture them.
Something like how the monster set from fang lair works, a creeping gas on the floor that taunts the enemies.

inthecoconut

Guppet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

That's not really true. In the guild I usually raid with the hardest trial we completed was vMoL (non-hm), and I'm running with alkosh constantly unless the fight demands more survival (vHRC hm/vCR gryphons).

When I joined that guild, I didn't even have a proper DK tank, I did the first few trial runs with my magplar. And in the very first trial we did together (vAA) I was told to get ebon because people were dying on Varlariel when just 1 add was up. So there goes my Vampire Cloak set that worked so well with me trying to be a heal/mitigation tank. And thinking ahead about trials we would do as we progress, I just decided to level a DK at that point, because there is no way I could tank with alkosh on a magplar, especially since ebon was already a handicap for my build (more HP, but less effective HP due to loss of mitigation and weaker heals).

So no, it does not affect just the 1%. I still am not the 1%. But back when I so naively started doing vet trials with my magplar I sure as hell wasn't, and still I was told in the very first one to go get ebon, and that by a guild with nords for DDs and khajiits for healers. I wasn't asked to use alkosh, that's true, but at that point I just decided to do what had to be done rather than what's the most fun for me to use, because if I didn't, I might very well have been made an OT or even asked to main a DD later on when we started optimizing, because I would have been the only tank in our guild not using it.

You completely missed the point of the post and instead decided to argue that 1% should maybe be 5%.

How am I missing the point if I turned "<1% of the player base if not even less" into 5% with my story? You could still argue that 5% is not significant enough, but it's harder to dismiss than <1%. Add to those 5% the people who copy tank builds from arbitrary guides online and then are not having fun, because those builds are only useable by the very same 0.1%-ers who make them, and we have ourselves a sizeable portion of the tank population that is affected by the lack of gear options trial groups find acceptable.

I actually saw quite a few people who just copied some guide, ended up with something like 20k resistances and 35k HP and were wondering, why they can't tank as well as I do, even though my build is nothing like the guide that claimed that that setup was supposedly "the best" for trials. For example I told a guildie who couldn't tank vet DLC dungeons before to use heavy Chudan instead of light+medium Blood Spawn, use 8p sturdy gear, use the 1hs ulti for regen and put some points in Heavy Armor Focus (all 4 things dismissed as "training wheels" or "unnecessary" by the "pros"), and once he made the switch, he can't stop going on about how he actually enjoys tanking now. We did vBF after, and he actually told me that the last boss was easy.

So as you see, if tanks weren't expected to use specific gear or skills to turn themselves into buff bots, it would also help those who are stuck between non-DLC and DLC vets needing help to advance, and that is probably already covering at least 20% of tanks and not just 5%.

EDIT:
And then there are also all the non-DK/Warden tanks who could be very viable if they could drop Alkosh and War Horn for something that actually helps them.

This is a massive issue. The BIS build and sets are really for players that know the role and dungeons inside out. They are optimum assuming almost perfect execution.

The issue is ego. Most plays think that’s for the best players, well that’s me. The sad reality is that it’s not. It’s like playing a game on nightmare before you’ve cleared normal and saying this is no fun.

BIS doesn’t have margins for error because they assume you don’t make errors.

Non BIS can have margin for error and that margin won’t stop your group doing anything other than competing in leaderboards oh and it will be far more fun.

This has been so true for me. I really wanted to start gearing my DPS to the teeth because doing PUG vet dungeons, we just never seem to have the damage to clear it (mind you, I prefer tank). So I looked up an Alcast build, copied it, and was totally blown away by the amount of damage I was doing, and I didn't even have all purple, correct traits, enchants, etc. Now I melt stuff in Vets, but I can't survive a hit. If any of the mobs so much as look at me, I melt. It's exhilarating playing a complete glass cannon because one false move, one missed dodge roll, means I'm dead, and it has really challenged me to get better.

Even though I am learning and getting better, I'm going to make my own build next time instead of copying a drastic min/max build because it isn't designed for a player like me, it is designed for someone with lightening reflexes, for someone who wont ever take a hit. Right now, that isn't me. I still need to crutch on survival skills and/or sets. Plus, I just think it would be more fun to experiment myself. I might end up with an absolute trash build, but I need to start somewhere, and I can always make adjustments for what isn't working.

Kuramas9tails

EvilCroc wrote: »

AOE taunt.

Still don't know why this isn't a thing, even if it was a small radius.

BejaProphet

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

That's not really true. In the guild I usually raid with the hardest trial we completed was vMoL (non-hm), and I'm running with alkosh constantly unless the fight demands more survival (vHRC hm/vCR gryphons).

When I joined that guild, I didn't even have a proper DK tank, I did the first few trial runs with my magplar. And in the very first trial we did together (vAA) I was told to get ebon because people were dying on Varlariel when just 1 add was up. So there goes my Vampire Cloak set that worked so well with me trying to be a heal/mitigation tank. And thinking ahead about trials we would do as we progress, I just decided to level a DK at that point, because there is no way I could tank with alkosh on a magplar, especially since ebon was already a handicap for my build (more HP, but less effective HP due to loss of mitigation and weaker heals).

So no, it does not affect just the 1%. I still am not the 1%. But back when I so naively started doing vet trials with my magplar I sure as hell wasn't, and still I was told in the very first one to go get ebon, and that by a guild with nords for DDs and khajiits for healers. I wasn't asked to use alkosh, that's true, but at that point I just decided to do what had to be done rather than what's the most fun for me to use, because if I didn't, I might very well have been made an OT or even asked to main a DD later on when we started optimizing, because I would have been the only tank in our guild not using it.

You completely missed the point of the post and instead decided to argue that 1% should maybe be 5%.

How am I missing the point if I turned "<1% of the player base if not even less" into 5% with my story? You could still argue that 5% is not significant enough, but it's harder to dismiss than <1%. Add to those 5% the people who copy tank builds from arbitrary guides online and then are not having fun, because those builds are only useable by the very same 0.1%-ers who make them, and we have ourselves a sizeable portion of the tank population that is affected by the lack of gear options trial groups find acceptable.

I actually saw quite a few people who just copied some guide, ended up with something like 20k resistances and 35k HP and were wondering, why they can't tank as well as I do, even though my build is nothing like the guide that claimed that that setup was supposedly "the best" for trials. For example I told a guildie who couldn't tank vet DLC dungeons before to use heavy Chudan instead of light+medium Blood Spawn, use 8p sturdy gear, use the 1hs ulti for regen and put some points in Heavy Armor Focus (all 4 things dismissed as "training wheels" or "unnecessary" by the "pros"), and once he made the switch, he can't stop going on about how he actually enjoys tanking now. We did vBF after, and he actually told me that the last boss was easy.

So as you see, if tanks weren't expected to use specific gear or skills to turn themselves into buff bots, it would also help those who are stuck between non-DLC and DLC vets needing help to advance, and that is probably already covering at least 20% of tanks and not just 5%.

EDIT:
And then there are also all the non-DK/Warden tanks who could be very viable if they could drop Alkosh and War Horn for something that actually helps them.

This is a massive issue. The BIS build and sets are really for players that know the role and dungeons inside out. They are optimum assuming almost perfect execution.

The issue is ego. Most plays think that’s for the best players, well that’s me. The sad reality is that it’s not. It’s like playing a game on nightmare before you’ve cleared normal and saying this is no fun.

BIS doesn’t have margins for error because they assume you don’t make errors.

Non BIS can have margin for error and that margin won’t stop your group doing anything other than competing in leaderboards oh and it will be far more fun.

Well, those guides usually don't say "don't use it until you know the fights like the back of your hand, your own execution is perfect down to a fraction of a second and you have a group that works like a well oiled machine". The guides say "this is the best build because (list of advantages)", while entirely leaving out the part saying "you can't survive (list of mechanics) if your healer isn't there to save your *** the very second you get hit" or "normally people block this, but you will have to dodge roll on this one because my build here is actually not for tanks, but for DD buff bots LARPing as tanks" (yeye, i'm being facetious, don't get your panties in a twist). And so some people just copy it assuming it's the best possible build without questioning anything.

Sure, there are some ego issues with some people, and some guides actually do suggest alternatives, but I think that a lot of people just don't have the experience to know the implications of using the gear recommended in the guides they gloss over.

This is so not true. I bet for every single guide that you can provide that actually fails to specify that the build is for experienced tanks, four more guides could be sourced that explicitly warn new tanks away.

Guppet

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

AOE taunt.

Still don't know why this isn't a thing, even if it was a small radius.

Because many of us don’t want it. It dumbs down tanking. This game has great basics for tanking, it’s actually involved here.

We don’t want hit one button everything sticks to you. Other games have that and the ranking in them is boring compared to here.

ZeroXFF

BejaProphet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

That's not really true. In the guild I usually raid with the hardest trial we completed was vMoL (non-hm), and I'm running with alkosh constantly unless the fight demands more survival (vHRC hm/vCR gryphons).

When I joined that guild, I didn't even have a proper DK tank, I did the first few trial runs with my magplar. And in the very first trial we did together (vAA) I was told to get ebon because people were dying on Varlariel when just 1 add was up. So there goes my Vampire Cloak set that worked so well with me trying to be a heal/mitigation tank. And thinking ahead about trials we would do as we progress, I just decided to level a DK at that point, because there is no way I could tank with alkosh on a magplar, especially since ebon was already a handicap for my build (more HP, but less effective HP due to loss of mitigation and weaker heals).

So no, it does not affect just the 1%. I still am not the 1%. But back when I so naively started doing vet trials with my magplar I sure as hell wasn't, and still I was told in the very first one to go get ebon, and that by a guild with nords for DDs and khajiits for healers. I wasn't asked to use alkosh, that's true, but at that point I just decided to do what had to be done rather than what's the most fun for me to use, because if I didn't, I might very well have been made an OT or even asked to main a DD later on when we started optimizing, because I would have been the only tank in our guild not using it.

You completely missed the point of the post and instead decided to argue that 1% should maybe be 5%.

How am I missing the point if I turned "<1% of the player base if not even less" into 5% with my story? You could still argue that 5% is not significant enough, but it's harder to dismiss than <1%. Add to those 5% the people who copy tank builds from arbitrary guides online and then are not having fun, because those builds are only useable by the very same 0.1%-ers who make them, and we have ourselves a sizeable portion of the tank population that is affected by the lack of gear options trial groups find acceptable.

I actually saw quite a few people who just copied some guide, ended up with something like 20k resistances and 35k HP and were wondering, why they can't tank as well as I do, even though my build is nothing like the guide that claimed that that setup was supposedly "the best" for trials. For example I told a guildie who couldn't tank vet DLC dungeons before to use heavy Chudan instead of light+medium Blood Spawn, use 8p sturdy gear, use the 1hs ulti for regen and put some points in Heavy Armor Focus (all 4 things dismissed as "training wheels" or "unnecessary" by the "pros"), and once he made the switch, he can't stop going on about how he actually enjoys tanking now. We did vBF after, and he actually told me that the last boss was easy.

So as you see, if tanks weren't expected to use specific gear or skills to turn themselves into buff bots, it would also help those who are stuck between non-DLC and DLC vets needing help to advance, and that is probably already covering at least 20% of tanks and not just 5%.

EDIT:
And then there are also all the non-DK/Warden tanks who could be very viable if they could drop Alkosh and War Horn for something that actually helps them.

This is a massive issue. The BIS build and sets are really for players that know the role and dungeons inside out. They are optimum assuming almost perfect execution.

The issue is ego. Most plays think that’s for the best players, well that’s me. The sad reality is that it’s not. It’s like playing a game on nightmare before you’ve cleared normal and saying this is no fun.

BIS doesn’t have margins for error because they assume you don’t make errors.

Non BIS can have margin for error and that margin won’t stop your group doing anything other than competing in leaderboards oh and it will be far more fun.

Well, those guides usually don't say "don't use it until you know the fights like the back of your hand, your own execution is perfect down to a fraction of a second and you have a group that works like a well oiled machine". The guides say "this is the best build because (list of advantages)", while entirely leaving out the part saying "you can't survive (list of mechanics) if your healer isn't there to save your *** the very second you get hit" or "normally people block this, but you will have to dodge roll on this one because my build here is actually not for tanks, but for DD buff bots LARPing as tanks" (yeye, i'm being facetious, don't get your panties in a twist). And so some people just copy it assuming it's the best possible build without questioning anything.

Sure, there are some ego issues with some people, and some guides actually do suggest alternatives, but I think that a lot of people just don't have the experience to know the implications of using the gear recommended in the guides they gloss over.

This is so not true. I bet for every single guide that you can provide that actually fails to specify that the build is for experienced tanks, four more guides could be sourced that explicitly warn new tanks away.

Well, I don't read a lot of guides, so I can't tell you the %, but I do come quite a bit in contact with people who tell me they copied a build they found online and who are grateful when they change it to something more defensive, with better resource management. They wouldn't be grateful if it was an ego issue for them. So somehow the information did not get to them. If it's not the guides themselves, I guess it could be that they aren't reading them and just scroll down to the list of gear/CPs/skills they are supposed to use without reading the explanation saying when and why they should use them. I guess I should have highlighted the "gloss over" part of my previous post too.

Inarre

Woeler wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

That's not really true. In the guild I usually raid with the hardest trial we completed was vMoL (non-hm), and I'm running with alkosh constantly unless the fight demands more survival (vHRC hm/vCR gryphons).

When I joined that guild, I didn't even have a proper DK tank, I did the first few trial runs with my magplar. And in the very first trial we did together (vAA) I was told to get ebon because people were dying on Varlariel when just 1 add was up. So there goes my Vampire Cloak set that worked so well with me trying to be a heal/mitigation tank. And thinking ahead about trials we would do as we progress, I just decided to level a DK at that point, because there is no way I could tank with alkosh on a magplar, especially since ebon was already a handicap for my build (more HP, but less effective HP due to loss of mitigation and weaker heals).

So no, it does not affect just the 1%. I still am not the 1%. But back when I so naively started doing vet trials with my magplar I sure as hell wasn't, and still I was told in the very first one to go get ebon, and that by a guild with nords for DDs and khajiits for healers. I wasn't asked to use alkosh, that's true, but at that point I just decided to do what had to be done rather than what's the most fun for me to use, because if I didn't, I might very well have been made an OT or even asked to main a DD later on when we started optimizing, because I would have been the only tank in our guild not using it.

You completely missed the point of the post and instead decided to argue that 1% should maybe be 5%.

If i understand the discussion, this player thinks running ebon/alkosh is responsible for taking away his right to play a creative and unique build, and your counter to that is that really only the top 1% should be concerned with this setup. But i dont think this player was arguing that the top 1% should be top 5%. I think the point he was trying to make was that even guilds in the top 50% often will push or straight up require these sets from a tank (even if the tank can't or doesn't know how to use them to their full potential). Your point of course still stands though, that the gear is simply not necessary for anything but top guilds.

That said i am also wondering how eliminating the requirement for certain "meta" sets on a tank will increase the fun factor. From my perspective, the more I have to pay attention to, the more challenging the fight, the more fun I personally have. So adding extra responsibilities like timing alkosh right to push up times in a fight just adds to the complexity and fun.

I suppose if your idea of fun is being able to run a build of your choosing it would be best to find a guild that is open to this. Though it blows my mind that a guild with khajiit healers are demanding meta builds from, obviously, only some of its members.

Doctordarkspawn

Inarre wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

That's not really true. In the guild I usually raid with the hardest trial we completed was vMoL (non-hm), and I'm running with alkosh constantly unless the fight demands more survival (vHRC hm/vCR gryphons).

When I joined that guild, I didn't even have a proper DK tank, I did the first few trial runs with my magplar. And in the very first trial we did together (vAA) I was told to get ebon because people were dying on Varlariel when just 1 add was up. So there goes my Vampire Cloak set that worked so well with me trying to be a heal/mitigation tank. And thinking ahead about trials we would do as we progress, I just decided to level a DK at that point, because there is no way I could tank with alkosh on a magplar, especially since ebon was already a handicap for my build (more HP, but less effective HP due to loss of mitigation and weaker heals).

So no, it does not affect just the 1%. I still am not the 1%. But back when I so naively started doing vet trials with my magplar I sure as hell wasn't, and still I was told in the very first one to go get ebon, and that by a guild with nords for DDs and khajiits for healers. I wasn't asked to use alkosh, that's true, but at that point I just decided to do what had to be done rather than what's the most fun for me to use, because if I didn't, I might very well have been made an OT or even asked to main a DD later on when we started optimizing, because I would have been the only tank in our guild not using it.

You completely missed the point of the post and instead decided to argue that 1% should maybe be 5%.

If i understand the discussion, this player thinks running ebon/alkosh is responsible for taking away his right to play a creative and unique build, and your counter to that is that really only the top 1% should be concerned with this setup. But i dont think this player was arguing that the top 1% should be top 5%. I think the point he was trying to make was that even guilds in the top 50% often will push or straight up require these sets from a tank (even if the tank can't or doesn't know how to use them to their full potential). Your point of course still stands though, that the gear is simply not necessary for anything but top guilds.

That said i am also wondering how eliminating the requirement for certain "meta" sets on a tank will increase the fun factor. From my perspective, the more I have to pay attention to, the more challenging the fight, the more fun I personally have. So adding extra responsibilities like timing alkosh right to push up times in a fight just adds to the complexity and fun.

I suppose if your idea of fun is being able to run a build of your choosing it would be best to find a guild that is open to this. Though it blows my mind that a guild with khajiit healers are demanding meta builds from, obviously, only some of its members.

Honestly it really comes down -to- that. Do you find complexity fun?

And I for one do not.

DocFrost72

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

That's not really true. In the guild I usually raid with the hardest trial we completed was vMoL (non-hm), and I'm running with alkosh constantly unless the fight demands more survival (vHRC hm/vCR gryphons).

When I joined that guild, I didn't even have a proper DK tank, I did the first few trial runs with my magplar. And in the very first trial we did together (vAA) I was told to get ebon because people were dying on Varlariel when just 1 add was up. So there goes my Vampire Cloak set that worked so well with me trying to be a heal/mitigation tank. And thinking ahead about trials we would do as we progress, I just decided to level a DK at that point, because there is no way I could tank with alkosh on a magplar, especially since ebon was already a handicap for my build (more HP, but less effective HP due to loss of mitigation and weaker heals).

So no, it does not affect just the 1%. I still am not the 1%. But back when I so naively started doing vet trials with my magplar I sure as hell wasn't, and still I was told in the very first one to go get ebon, and that by a guild with nords for DDs and khajiits for healers. I wasn't asked to use alkosh, that's true, but at that point I just decided to do what had to be done rather than what's the most fun for me to use, because if I didn't, I might very well have been made an OT or even asked to main a DD later on when we started optimizing, because I would have been the only tank in our guild not using it.

You completely missed the point of the post and instead decided to argue that 1% should maybe be 5%.

If i understand the discussion, this player thinks running ebon/alkosh is responsible for taking away his right to play a creative and unique build, and your counter to that is that really only the top 1% should be concerned with this setup. But i dont think this player was arguing that the top 1% should be top 5%. I think the point he was trying to make was that even guilds in the top 50% often will push or straight up require these sets from a tank (even if the tank can't or doesn't know how to use them to their full potential). Your point of course still stands though, that the gear is simply not necessary for anything but top guilds.

That said i am also wondering how eliminating the requirement for certain "meta" sets on a tank will increase the fun factor. From my perspective, the more I have to pay attention to, the more challenging the fight, the more fun I personally have. So adding extra responsibilities like timing alkosh right to push up times in a fight just adds to the complexity and fun.

I suppose if your idea of fun is being able to run a build of your choosing it would be best to find a guild that is open to this. Though it blows my mind that a guild with khajiit healers are demanding meta builds from, obviously, only some of its members.

Honestly it really comes down -to- that. Do you find complexity fun?

And I for one do not.

I respect your opinion, even if I do disagree. I think that the type of complexity we have is not fun, but I like the complexity. Tanking in medium armor buffing just the dps is not fun, but tanking in heavy sets that have group utility centered on survivability (ebon, lord warden, imperium are great examples) to me is fun.

I like the idea of people saying "when Doc's in group, we can't die" way more than "Doc's in group, gunna have good pen".

BejaProphet

ZeroXFF wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

That's not really true. In the guild I usually raid with the hardest trial we completed was vMoL (non-hm), and I'm running with alkosh constantly unless the fight demands more survival (vHRC hm/vCR gryphons).

When I joined that guild, I didn't even have a proper DK tank, I did the first few trial runs with my magplar. And in the very first trial we did together (vAA) I was told to get ebon because people were dying on Varlariel when just 1 add was up. So there goes my Vampire Cloak set that worked so well with me trying to be a heal/mitigation tank. And thinking ahead about trials we would do as we progress, I just decided to level a DK at that point, because there is no way I could tank with alkosh on a magplar, especially since ebon was already a handicap for my build (more HP, but less effective HP due to loss of mitigation and weaker heals).

So no, it does not affect just the 1%. I still am not the 1%. But back when I so naively started doing vet trials with my magplar I sure as hell wasn't, and still I was told in the very first one to go get ebon, and that by a guild with nords for DDs and khajiits for healers. I wasn't asked to use alkosh, that's true, but at that point I just decided to do what had to be done rather than what's the most fun for me to use, because if I didn't, I might very well have been made an OT or even asked to main a DD later on when we started optimizing, because I would have been the only tank in our guild not using it.

You completely missed the point of the post and instead decided to argue that 1% should maybe be 5%.

How am I missing the point if I turned "<1% of the player base if not even less" into 5% with my story? You could still argue that 5% is not significant enough, but it's harder to dismiss than <1%. Add to those 5% the people who copy tank builds from arbitrary guides online and then are not having fun, because those builds are only useable by the very same 0.1%-ers who make them, and we have ourselves a sizeable portion of the tank population that is affected by the lack of gear options trial groups find acceptable.

I actually saw quite a few people who just copied some guide, ended up with something like 20k resistances and 35k HP and were wondering, why they can't tank as well as I do, even though my build is nothing like the guide that claimed that that setup was supposedly "the best" for trials. For example I told a guildie who couldn't tank vet DLC dungeons before to use heavy Chudan instead of light+medium Blood Spawn, use 8p sturdy gear, use the 1hs ulti for regen and put some points in Heavy Armor Focus (all 4 things dismissed as "training wheels" or "unnecessary" by the "pros"), and once he made the switch, he can't stop going on about how he actually enjoys tanking now. We did vBF after, and he actually told me that the last boss was easy.

So as you see, if tanks weren't expected to use specific gear or skills to turn themselves into buff bots, it would also help those who are stuck between non-DLC and DLC vets needing help to advance, and that is probably already covering at least 20% of tanks and not just 5%.

EDIT:
And then there are also all the non-DK/Warden tanks who could be very viable if they could drop Alkosh and War Horn for something that actually helps them.

This is a massive issue. The BIS build and sets are really for players that know the role and dungeons inside out. They are optimum assuming almost perfect execution.

The issue is ego. Most plays think that’s for the best players, well that’s me. The sad reality is that it’s not. It’s like playing a game on nightmare before you’ve cleared normal and saying this is no fun.

BIS doesn’t have margins for error because they assume you don’t make errors.

Non BIS can have margin for error and that margin won’t stop your group doing anything other than competing in leaderboards oh and it will be far more fun.

Well, those guides usually don't say "don't use it until you know the fights like the back of your hand, your own execution is perfect down to a fraction of a second and you have a group that works like a well oiled machine". The guides say "this is the best build because (list of advantages)", while entirely leaving out the part saying "you can't survive (list of mechanics) if your healer isn't there to save your *** the very second you get hit" or "normally people block this, but you will have to dodge roll on this one because my build here is actually not for tanks, but for DD buff bots LARPing as tanks" (yeye, i'm being facetious, don't get your panties in a twist). And so some people just copy it assuming it's the best possible build without questioning anything.

Sure, there are some ego issues with some people, and some guides actually do suggest alternatives, but I think that a lot of people just don't have the experience to know the implications of using the gear recommended in the guides they gloss over.

This is so not true. I bet for every single guide that you can provide that actually fails to specify that the build is for experienced tanks, four more guides could be sourced that explicitly warn new tanks away.

Well, I don't read a lot of guides, so I can't tell you the %, but I do come quite a bit in contact with people who tell me they copied a build they found online and who are grateful when they change it to something more defensive, with better resource management. They wouldn't be grateful if it was an ego issue for them. So somehow the information did not get to them. If it's not the guides themselves, I guess it could be that they aren't reading them and just scroll down to the list of gear/CPs/skills they are supposed to use without reading the explanation saying when and why they should use them. I guess I should have highlighted the "gloss over" part of my previous post too.

So you made an assertion that you admittedly have zero clue whether its true. Conversations like this become very difficulty when people keep articulating things as if they are facts based on data (indeed often explicitly saying that they are), when all they really mean is "I feel a certain way."

All the things you keep trying to present as if they are data are actually just you saying, "I'm frustrated with my DPS." There is no more substance than that.

ZeroXFF

Inarre wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

That's not really true. In the guild I usually raid with the hardest trial we completed was vMoL (non-hm), and I'm running with alkosh constantly unless the fight demands more survival (vHRC hm/vCR gryphons).

When I joined that guild, I didn't even have a proper DK tank, I did the first few trial runs with my magplar. And in the very first trial we did together (vAA) I was told to get ebon because people were dying on Varlariel when just 1 add was up. So there goes my Vampire Cloak set that worked so well with me trying to be a heal/mitigation tank. And thinking ahead about trials we would do as we progress, I just decided to level a DK at that point, because there is no way I could tank with alkosh on a magplar, especially since ebon was already a handicap for my build (more HP, but less effective HP due to loss of mitigation and weaker heals).

So no, it does not affect just the 1%. I still am not the 1%. But back when I so naively started doing vet trials with my magplar I sure as hell wasn't, and still I was told in the very first one to go get ebon, and that by a guild with nords for DDs and khajiits for healers. I wasn't asked to use alkosh, that's true, but at that point I just decided to do what had to be done rather than what's the most fun for me to use, because if I didn't, I might very well have been made an OT or even asked to main a DD later on when we started optimizing, because I would have been the only tank in our guild not using it.

You completely missed the point of the post and instead decided to argue that 1% should maybe be 5%.

If i understand the discussion, this player thinks running ebon/alkosh is responsible for taking away his right to play a creative and unique build, and your counter to that is that really only the top 1% should be concerned with this setup. But i dont think this player was arguing that the top 1% should be top 5%. I think the point he was trying to make was that even guilds in the top 50% often will push or straight up require these sets from a tank (even if the tank can't or doesn't know how to use them to their full potential). Your point of course still stands though, that the gear is simply not necessary for anything but top guilds.

That said i am also wondering how eliminating the requirement for certain "meta" sets on a tank will increase the fun factor. From my perspective, the more I have to pay attention to, the more challenging the fight, the more fun I personally have. So adding extra responsibilities like timing alkosh right to push up times in a fight just adds to the complexity and fun.

I suppose if your idea of fun is being able to run a build of your choosing it would be best to find a guild that is open to this. Though it blows my mind that a guild with khajiit healers are demanding meta builds from, obviously, only some of its members.

I'd prefer it if that complexity came from reactive and proactive actions and fight mechanics rather than something as boring as counting to 10 after pressing X.

And the fun isn't necessarily "unique" builds (though I do see the appeal in that and would very much support that), but builds that help me do my job rather than help someone else do theirs. If I was free to choose, I would (currently) be running Chudan+Plague Doctor+Akaviri Dragonguard with Magma Shell instead of War Horn most of the time. That's at best a 2 on the uniqueness scale, but it helps with tanking a lot more than Ebon+Alkosh.

Kilnerdyne

Tanking is already fun. Cheer up.

ZeroXFF

BejaProphet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

So you guys all „love“ to be a dragonknight, because only dragonknights with engulfing flames are welcome for the end content. You guys love wearing alkosh with set boni you dont need at all. So you guys loved, when people started asking tanks to run lightning blockade for better offbalance and concussion uptime?

This affects <1% of the player base if not even less. Are we talking about representing the top score leaderboard tanks or tanks in general? The overwhelming majority of people do not use these things. These things distinguish the top from the rest, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You can run none of those things and still be a very decent tank for guilds that don't go for competitive leaderboard places. There is always going to be "a thing" that maximizes support, and those top guilds will always be pushing for those, no matter what.

I mean sure, they can make a tank-like concussion thing, or a tank-like alkosh set. But would that make tanking more fun? I'm not so sure. It would definitely make it easier though.

That's not really true. In the guild I usually raid with the hardest trial we completed was vMoL (non-hm), and I'm running with alkosh constantly unless the fight demands more survival (vHRC hm/vCR gryphons).

When I joined that guild, I didn't even have a proper DK tank, I did the first few trial runs with my magplar. And in the very first trial we did together (vAA) I was told to get ebon because people were dying on Varlariel when just 1 add was up. So there goes my Vampire Cloak set that worked so well with me trying to be a heal/mitigation tank. And thinking ahead about trials we would do as we progress, I just decided to level a DK at that point, because there is no way I could tank with alkosh on a magplar, especially since ebon was already a handicap for my build (more HP, but less effective HP due to loss of mitigation and weaker heals).

So no, it does not affect just the 1%. I still am not the 1%. But back when I so naively started doing vet trials with my magplar I sure as hell wasn't, and still I was told in the very first one to go get ebon, and that by a guild with nords for DDs and khajiits for healers. I wasn't asked to use alkosh, that's true, but at that point I just decided to do what had to be done rather than what's the most fun for me to use, because if I didn't, I might very well have been made an OT or even asked to main a DD later on when we started optimizing, because I would have been the only tank in our guild not using it.

You completely missed the point of the post and instead decided to argue that 1% should maybe be 5%.

How am I missing the point if I turned "<1% of the player base if not even less" into 5% with my story? You could still argue that 5% is not significant enough, but it's harder to dismiss than <1%. Add to those 5% the people who copy tank builds from arbitrary guides online and then are not having fun, because those builds are only useable by the very same 0.1%-ers who make them, and we have ourselves a sizeable portion of the tank population that is affected by the lack of gear options trial groups find acceptable.

I actually saw quite a few people who just copied some guide, ended up with something like 20k resistances and 35k HP and were wondering, why they can't tank as well as I do, even though my build is nothing like the guide that claimed that that setup was supposedly "the best" for trials. For example I told a guildie who couldn't tank vet DLC dungeons before to use heavy Chudan instead of light+medium Blood Spawn, use 8p sturdy gear, use the 1hs ulti for regen and put some points in Heavy Armor Focus (all 4 things dismissed as "training wheels" or "unnecessary" by the "pros"), and once he made the switch, he can't stop going on about how he actually enjoys tanking now. We did vBF after, and he actually told me that the last boss was easy.

So as you see, if tanks weren't expected to use specific gear or skills to turn themselves into buff bots, it would also help those who are stuck between non-DLC and DLC vets needing help to advance, and that is probably already covering at least 20% of tanks and not just 5%.

EDIT:
And then there are also all the non-DK/Warden tanks who could be very viable if they could drop Alkosh and War Horn for something that actually helps them.

This is a massive issue. The BIS build and sets are really for players that know the role and dungeons inside out. They are optimum assuming almost perfect execution.

The issue is ego. Most plays think that’s for the best players, well that’s me. The sad reality is that it’s not. It’s like playing a game on nightmare before you’ve cleared normal and saying this is no fun.

BIS doesn’t have margins for error because they assume you don’t make errors.

Non BIS can have margin for error and that margin won’t stop your group doing anything other than competing in leaderboards oh and it will be far more fun.

Well, those guides usually don't say "don't use it until you know the fights like the back of your hand, your own execution is perfect down to a fraction of a second and you have a group that works like a well oiled machine". The guides say "this is the best build because (list of advantages)", while entirely leaving out the part saying "you can't survive (list of mechanics) if your healer isn't there to save your *** the very second you get hit" or "normally people block this, but you will have to dodge roll on this one because my build here is actually not for tanks, but for DD buff bots LARPing as tanks" (yeye, i'm being facetious, don't get your panties in a twist). And so some people just copy it assuming it's the best possible build without questioning anything.

Sure, there are some ego issues with some people, and some guides actually do suggest alternatives, but I think that a lot of people just don't have the experience to know the implications of using the gear recommended in the guides they gloss over.

This is so not true. I bet for every single guide that you can provide that actually fails to specify that the build is for experienced tanks, four more guides could be sourced that explicitly warn new tanks away.

Well, I don't read a lot of guides, so I can't tell you the %, but I do come quite a bit in contact with people who tell me they copied a build they found online and who are grateful when they change it to something more defensive, with better resource management. They wouldn't be grateful if it was an ego issue for them. So somehow the information did not get to them. If it's not the guides themselves, I guess it could be that they aren't reading them and just scroll down to the list of gear/CPs/skills they are supposed to use without reading the explanation saying when and why they should use them. I guess I should have highlighted the "gloss over" part of my previous post too.

So you made an assertion that you admittedly have zero clue whether its true. Conversations like this become very difficulty when people keep articulating things as if they are facts based on data (indeed often explicitly saying that they are), when all they really mean is "I feel a certain way."

All the things you keep trying to present as if they are data are actually just you saying, "I'm frustrated with my DPS." There is no more substance than that.

The chain of replies you're commenting on is not about DPS. But I see the butthurt is strong with you because you don't really have an argument on that topic.

Anyways, moving on.