Carbonised wrote: »

I know you're swinging the nerf hammer over everything snare related, but was it really necessary to nerf the DK passive Warmth as well?

When you deal damage with an Ardent Flame ability, you reduce the enemy's Movement Speed by 30% for 4 seconds.

It's a very mild snare, only 30 % reduction, and with a very short duration, only 4 seconds. Also, it can only be applied with melee based attacks (embers, engulfing). After the update, it will only be applicable by whips.

The DK class representative thread already talked about how useless the DK passives are for most our skills, so many times they do not apply, and now you're changing things again, so that the Warmth passive will only apply to a single skill in the skill tree it belongs to, this is exactly what DKs have been complaining about.

With this change, you might just as well completely scrap the Warmth passive and replace it with something else. a 30 % snare for 4 secs only applicable by whip (and inferno, for the few who use that), is just another underwhelming and pretty useless DK passive in a long line of them by now.

DKs have no mobility whatsoever, the 4 sec snare was the only thing they had going for them to keep opponents in melee range, since again, all DK skills are melee based.

Where's our DK class representative, didn't we already make a point of how DK passives are continually being nerfed and changed so they apply to less and less skills?

This absolutely needed a nerf, and this was a good one.

Warmth had the highest purge priority in the game, meaning purge was essentially wasted if the core skill applying it wasn't purged off, as it would simply reapply itself.

DK is not lacking in CC options and a vast majority of it's offensive PVP skills still snare for 3 seconds.

The defile changes are spot on! Well done, just need to fix the defile sets now, durok still 100% uptime.

Medium Armor Skill - Evasion (Suggestion)

Add Snare Immunity to Evasion (Base skill and morphs, 2s base).
Shuffle increases the Immunity duration per piece of Armor (0.5s per).
Elude grants Minor Expedition for the Duration.

Left4Daud wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

I will pass concerns along. Though some questions have you tried Have you tried timestop, volcanic rune, turn undead. Just some considerations.

@Tasear

Yea I have tried those abilities for my Nightblade tank on that fight and they don't work nearly as well as the fear traps, which themselves were a pain to get used to.

Volcanic ruin for example knocks them up in the air for 4 seconds but then they come running at you with blazing speed, spraying acid and reducing your armor to 0 making the boss light attacks hit like a truck.

Manifestation of Terror traps are the only thing I've been able to make consistently work in this hard mode because it fears the shalks for 4 seconds, and then slows them for 4 additional seconds allowing me to space myself away from their nasty acid spray.

Non-hard mode is not a problem, with one shalk - I actually use frost clench here.

Hard mode on a Nightblade tank though I have to use some special tricks and if my tricks get nerfed I'm not sure I will want to do this fight on my tank anymore.

I understand this is an extremely niche circumstance, literally being only one PVE fight in the game this nerf will effect. I would argue that fang lair Hard mode is currently the hardest 4man fight in the game at the moment though, and tanking it on a nightblade is definitely more difficult than DK or warden so I need every edge I can get, 4 second fear and 4 second snare being my edge.

But I don't want Manifestation of Terror to be nerfed just because everything else is getting nerfed. I think it should have more reason then that.

Are the fear traps really overperforming so much in PVP that a nerf to the cc is justified? I can't say I just know it effects my PVE tanking toolkit and I want that to be considered.

First, I can’t offer an opinion on whether they’re overperforming either, and that in itself is a discussion apart from this one.

Are there other fights in pve where you’d use them, though? Especially as a tank, most often you’re trying to group adds together, not spread them apart. And while I haven’t tried it, I imagine enemies that do have proximity-based mechanics (such as the ogres in SP) are immune to fears.

As for that fight in particular, I like your creative use of the skill, but there are definitely workarounds. If you have major expedition up, you easily outpace the scarabs without even having to sprint. Or, if you want to focus on slowing them instead, I know some people use blockade of frost for its snare. I also have a friend who uses a bow backbar so he can interrupt with venom arrow and roll dodge for major expedition, but if you did this you could also snare them with arrow barrage. If you have Summerset, time stop slows them and then stuns them, which I believe in total is shorter than the 8 second cc from manifestation of terror but is comparable in overall duration.

Bottom line, maybe it’s an entirely frivolous nerf, maybe it’s needed for pvp, but either way I don’t think it’s really any skin off a pve tank’s back.

Carbonised wrote: »

That depends on whether I'm reading the patch notes right.

"This ability now only snares targets when you deal direct damage with an Ardent Flame ability (was any type of damage)"

If Engulfing and Embers still count as direct damage on the first initial damage, then it's at least bearable. It's still a huge nerf for Banner though, which only deals DoT, so it's more easy than ever to just run out of the AoE. Warmth should still apply to Banner.
Or at least have Banner deal an upfront direct damage so it procs Warmth.

If, as I read it initially, it means that only whip and one morph of Inferno will apply Warmth, then it's a cause of concern.

It's still hardly "the vast majority" of the offensive PvP skills, so save the hyperbole. Warmth doesn't apply to any skills in Draconic Power or Earthern Heart or any skills outside the DK toolkit.

We already mentioned in the DK class thread that so many passives are outdated and not applying to the skills they were supposed to apply to. Could you bring this up with the dev team regarding warmth? It should at least apply to the initial direct damage tick of Embers and Engulfing, and Banner needs to have a direct damage component when initially cast, so it at least procs Warmth once when cast. Banner is already circumstantial at best when used in PvP, and without warmth, it's pretty much gutted in PvP.

Warmth was needed nerf, 1 dot applying snare on cooldown is a lot stronger than credit was due. Its still kind of strong IMO. A DK easily uses 1 direct damage every 4s, engulfing initial, embers initial, FOO, chains, whip. It now gives kiters and snare removals a way to get rid of the snare for a little longer.

It could be changed to any DK initial hit though, since now its not as good AoE, so would be better synergy with talons.

Monday is when more changes will be pushed right?

Fix the Warden's Eternal Guardian Ultimate. Skill is completely useless in Cyrodiil. Also has some bugs like bear not respawn instantly after be killed (without respawn cooldown) and sometimes bear disappearing, stucking and not coming back even you recall it. The main point what I want to tell is this ultimate is easily dodgeable even with normal movement (not rolldodge). Bring some leap or jump animation to bear for being more effective.

The other thing is random resource (stamina-magicka) drain bug. In combat its randomly draining equal to your current magicka and stamina recovery. This bug ruining the PvP.

Please before you bring new dlcs and patches, read the bug report forums and see what you need to fix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qklxYreNTQo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxFPdxkynIM&t=4s

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JesC @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BillE @ZOS_GaryA

Stam Sorc Hurricane Idea change :

Reduce the physical damage again but put in utility as. Removes 1 negative effect every 2 or 3 seconds for the duration of the ability

Or

Change the hurricane physical damage into a swirling random disease/poison/shock pool of small damage and increase the ability to apply the status effect for the duration.

Overview,

Pros: This gives Stam Sorcs a unique way to stay mobile in combat without overpreforming. While allowing a counter to a person or builds set and playstyle.

Cons: Could be very annoying to the casual players trying to fight against it, also could confuse players in difficulty in understanding the class.

Note, The second idea would be RNG based giving it a % of implosion of 33% as disease and poison cannot proc implosion but shock can. As it would be the lower passive damage number to activate.

If the community can also give some input that would be nice.

The changes to Incap aren't an actual nerf because any nightblade can just slot a few shadow skills on their Incap bar, and due to their dark vigor passive, which will effectively cause their max health on the Incap bar to be significantly higher than their max health on the other bar. So All they'd have to do is bar swap and then activate incap and they'd have missing health, so they'd still be able to gank-stun their target.

So you see, the changes you made to the skill will have 0 impact on how good Niightblades are at ganking.

@Merlin13KAGL

Yeah I’ve been playing around with different frost staff setups. I switched from infused w/ weakening to charged w/ frost enchant. I love when I get an immobilization proc on my wall but it’s still far from 100%.

Regarding the shalks usually a fear trap handles them but sometimes I have to throw down the ice wall to further snare them if my ability to position was limited. That happens a lot in the last leg of hard mode.

With the pending change to the snare adjustments I will have to see how the fight feels and adjust my set up accordingly. But it won’t be any easier than it is now, and that is to say it already is a fair challenge.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

People went with Channeled Focus for the regen. The armor buff was just a bonus.

Increasing the true secondary effect ( the armor bonus ) while reducing the main effect is a nerf.

The alternate morph could be change to function as proposed, but Channeled should stay as is.

@Left4Daud Frost WoE gives a decent Shalk snare, too, btw, and you can even drop it down in front of you and run through it if you must.

Speaking strictly in terms of PvE the regen from channeled focus sucks...everyone uses spel sym, because it instantly returns the same amt of magicka as channeled focus if done right.

Left4Daud wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

Yeah I’ve been playing around with different frost staff setups. I switched from infused w/ weakening to charged w/ frost enchant. I love when I get an immobilization proc on my wall but it’s still far from 100%.

Regarding the shalks usually a fear trap handles them but sometimes I have to throw down the ice wall to further snare them if my ability to position was limited. That happens a lot in the last leg of hard mode.

With the pending change to the snare adjustments I will have to see how the fight feels and adjust my set up accordingly. But it won’t be any easier than it is now, and that is to say it already is a fair challenge.

@Left4Daud you won't always get the immobilize proc, but you should always get at least a basic snare. I think the shalks stay up about 15 seconds if not killed (ideal), and even Talons doesn't fire consistently on both. The debuff they give is downright brutal.

Elsterchen wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

People went with Channeled Focus for the regen. The armor buff was just a bonus.

Increasing the true secondary effect ( the armor bonus ) while reducing the main effect is a nerf.

The alternate morph could be change to function as proposed, but Channeled should stay as is.

@Left4Daud Frost WoE gives a decent Shalk snare, too, btw, and you can even drop it down in front of you and run through it if you must.

Sry, but its templars only ability to gain the major defence buff. Like any other class, templars only have one. So no: rune focus primary ability was (and is) the major defence buff, which thankfully is mobile once patch hits live.

The other thing is sustain, and knowing that the minor sustain buff from channeled focus was so desperately needed by magplars that they will riot now, just shows the pity state of templar sustain. Sustain definately needs to be adressed, but not by (again) shutting templars out of a mobile major defence buff.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Speaking strictly in terms of PvE the regen from channeled focus sucks...everyone uses spel sym, because it instantly returns the same amt of magicka as channeled focus if done right.

@hedna123b14_ESO , you haven't run the math on Channeled, apparently. It's the equivalent to +480 Mag Regen, simply by setting foot in the Focus once every 8 seconds. It's passive (once it's down), long lasting, fast ticking, and unlike Spell Sym, it neither damages, nor debuffs you in the process. Show me any other skill that matches that.

EDIT: There's also the matter that you don't need to max a 4th line to get access to it, since it's a class skill.

@Elsterchen , it's far easier to find an extra 5280 armor class than it is to find extra mag regen. If they made up for it elsewhere, that would be fine, but I don't see them doing that anytime soon. If not for the regen, the morphs would be on equal footing / personal preference. Clearly this being the desired morph points to regen as the reason, as they both give the armor buffs.

This was a go-to skill for many DPS, and a must have for anyone trying to templar tank.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

drop rune prisons range to 8m, same as DK version.

add some risk and skill to that reward

Lol, what magicka sorc fights at 8m range?

The rune cage stun is annoying to break, I am 100% for fixing that but it has to remain an useful skill.

May as well just call it melee at that point, since 'melee' in this game is 5-7m (which is complete ***).

Apparently everyone's walking around with anime worthy Final Fantasy length weapons. The visuals just don't reflect that.

Boss reaches are even worse sometimes. (How about if I'm visually out of it then I don't get hit?)

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@Elsterchen , it's far easier to find an extra 5280 armor class than it is to find extra mag regen. If they made up for it elsewhere, that would be fine, but I don't see them doing that anytime soon. If not for the regen, the morphs would be on equal footing / personal preference. Clearly this being the desired morph points to regen as the reason, as they both give the armor buffs.

This was a go-to skill for many DPS, and a must have for anyone trying to templar tank.

I kind of disagree on this one, in both cases one has to go with either a 5-piece bonus, or 3 pieces of jewellery or a combination of monster-set/mundus to "make up" for the loss. I am pretty sure the two of us play templar very different and while I know for sure that its not easy to get the major defence buff outside of class skills, I trust your judgement on mag regen. Either way its a trade off (damage for armor OR damage for mag regen) that seems a templar-only design "feature". I hope we can agree that the problem is the design choices we are presented and not the actuall morphs.

On this one i can happily agree. Both morphs should be desireable and both morphs should offer a mobile major defence buff. The sustain on channeled focus needs to be buffed to fall in line with the other morph... i.e. mag regen should at minimum reach the level it had before the ability got changed.
I even believe this should not give reason to argue, its pretty straight forward: channeled focus only has one minor effect. Its the mag regen. Of course this minor effect should be as effective, if not even more effective, ... after all: "granting" templars a mobile defence buff is NOT a BUFF -> its just bringing this class in line with other classes! There is absolutely no reason to nerf anything.



edit: *cough* @Joy_Division *cough* ... do you need some different wording, any comparisons etc. for this line of argument ? *cough* *cough* #badsummercold

Spell Symmetry, yes, very nice compared to Channeled Focus on a healer. Which healer cares about doing 50% less healing during 4s, none, pretty sure.